How many people here are "pros'?

[hgsfrmme2u]

I'm just curious who here takes photos for a living. Doesn't matter what kind of photos.
I'm not a "pro" anything. I'm really in to photography and editing but I'm only a "pro" to my family. They all tell me I'm great though so that's all that matters to me.
It seems like everyone on here is so great so I'm wondering how many enthusiast (like me) there are.
I'd love to expand my horizons but don't see that happening any time soon. In the mean time, I'm learning all I can from everyone here.
For all you pros out there. Where did you start? How did you learn all you know now? Did you take classes or go to college for it?
Guess I'd like to know where to go next.
Thanks for the replies in advance :)

Becky

[sapearl]

Hi Becky - welcome to POTN :D. I consider myself a pro, but in the sense of one of those part-time "weekend warriors."

I've been doing weddings and social events now since 1973, averaging around 15 paying contracts/year. While pro in my approach, tax filings and general way in which I conduct my business, in all fairness I would not compare myself to those folks who do it full time, offering full studio services, often out of a brick and mortar establishment.

I got my start back in college, working for the school newspaper, took photo courses, did fraternity group shots, dorm group shots, etc.... one thing led to another an eventually my first wedding. Now I regulary promote event business as well as fine art and freelance work on the side. I submit work to museum competitions and exhibits, and sometimes even get in :lol:.

It's been a wild ride, learning all manner of things along way, all of it being valuable experience. Good luck and feel free to ask lots of questions here. You'll find a lot of helpful answers :D. - Stu

[adam8080]

I'm a part time pro. I do weddings on weekends, bridals during the week, and portraits during the week. I'm working for a new studio and currently there isn't enough work for me to quit my day job as a graphic designer. Things are headed that way though. I got started by picking up a camera and trying new things and doing a lot of reading.

[sidx001]

Greetings Becky! I've been told that I'm a pro, but I still think I have a ways to go! I do mainly event photography; ie sporting events, weddings, engagements, senior pictures etc...I'll be full time as a photographer as of Jan 15 next year, which is exciting/terrifying! I started out with film about 27 years ago taking pictures for my school newspaper. I took some photo courses, bought a lot of books and generally made myself a pest to some local photographers wherever I have been, trying to get better. I still try to pawn myself off to whomever I can, sometimes shooting for free just to get more experience. It's worth it!

btw, Don't Let Stu fool you, he's an incredible photographer and if you'll take a look at his galleries you'll see what I mean. His pictures of the Flats in Cleveland are well known and are fantastic. I've learned a lot from him just by watching what he posts and how he explains things. (Sorry Stu!)

Good luck on here Becky and welcome to POTN! :D

[stathunter]

I would consider myself a pro......I do about 20 weddings per year and in the off season do work for newspapers, magazines etc. This year I did a ton of work for the presidential race......and enjoy what I do. I have not left my full time job to do this though....I have built another successful business and not ready to leave it yet. I make enough in wedding photography to keep me happy.
I think that with enough hard work, business savvy and some photography skills that it is possible to make a living as a pro in photography.
Most people think their photography is so good that they can make a living at it. In my opinion you need to be a business expert first and photographer second.

[stathunter]

btw, Don't Let Stu fool you, he's an incredible photographer and if you'll take a look at his galleries you'll see what I mean.....

Anyone can shoot the flats......that is not skill. :) -- just joking Stu!

[Dermit]

Hi Becky,

I too am a 'part-timer' pro. I do about only 5 weddings a year, but do many family portraits, senior pictures, little league baseball, theater and have sold some landscape and architectural images as well. I formed my photography business officially 4 years ago but have been shooting since the mid-80s. I have a regualr day-job that pays so well I never see the photography becoming full time and paying enough to replace my day job.

I got into being paid very very gradually. I first bought a film SLR in the mid 80s and started shooting landscapes mostly but also played a LOT with photography in general. I became decent at photography in general and eventually I was asked to shoot a wedding. That turned out well and soon I was being asked more and more to shoot more weddings and then some family portraits. I slowed down a lot for a while with photography, got married, bought a house, had a couple kids, etc.

Then when the digital SLR started getting up to the quality that started to rival film I jumped back in, formed a business so I could write off gear. And now I make enough to just barely cover my gear purchasing habits. Last year I actually made a small profit with the business.

I like how not-busy I am with it and not depending on it for a living. It makes it so I still have a lot of fun with it and keeps it creative. I don't have to play it safe all the time because i don't need to do it for a living. Of course I also don't have as much time to do it either with a full time day-job. But the balance is nice for me right now and I really enjoy it. Lately I've taken on a couple of students and have been teaching photography on a one-to-one basis. I love to teach almost more than I love to shoot, almost.

[sapearl]

You are too kind James - I appreciate the comments. But I am still WAAAAAYY behind in my photoshop skills compared to so many of the great talents that we see here on a daily basis.

All I can advise is to keep on shooting, practicing, self-critiquing, and asking the advice of others here. Maintain an open mind, and welcome constructive suggestions. We all learn from our successes. But we learn far more from our mistakes ;). - Stu

Greetings Becky! I've been told that I'm a pro, but I still think I have a ways to go! I do mainly event photography; ........

btw, Don't Let Stu fool you, he's an incredible photographer and if you'll take a look at his galleries you'll see what I mean. His pictures of the Flats in Cleveland are well known and are fantastic. I've learned a lot from him just by watching what he posts and how he explains things. (Sorry Stu!)

Good luck on here Becky and welcome to POTN! :D

[sapearl]

:lol::lol::lol:.... My wife always warns me though to make sure that nobody is shooting back - some of the streets there are a little on the rough side ;).

Anyone can shoot the flats......that is not skill. :) -- just joking Stu!

[bwolford]

14 of us are pros. The rest are just wannabes.

[DHancock]

I do mainly event photography; ie sporting events, weedings, engagements, senior pictures etc...
Do you do any weeding events out of state? My front yard is a mess. ;-)

[sidx001]

Do you do any weeding events out of state? My front yard is a mess. ;-)

Mind you that is just picture taking! :D

That was embarrasing! fixed!

[aram535]

My primary profession is "professional geek" and I'm getting cards with that as my title one of these days.

I do work on the pro's websites and maintain them, these guys eat-sleep-poop photos, they're really the ones I consider professional photographs. These guys remember the focal length, exposure and timing of their photos 10 years after they have shot them.

I personally, have sold photographs been the primary on contracts for events, so part-time pro is probably the best description. Rest of the time, I'm just trying to keep up.

[Donna Lere]

I am a "pro"! Woo Hoo! Having a studio for 25 plus years now would put me over the novice stage I guess! I do about 50 weddings a year and about 300 give or take a few portraits. I derive 100% of my income from photography. I think that qualifies me I would think. Part time is not a pro. Part time is a hobby.

[sapearl]

Hi Donna - good to see you here on POTN. You are certainly the type of pro that I tip my hat to.... full time living and surving at it ;).

One technical defination of a pro is one who derives a minimum of 51% of his/her income from a particular job. You certainly exceed that :D. I have a regular FT job, but the government dosn't regard my photography as a hobby - the tax bite demonstrates that :(.

But how do you feel though about expertise, knowledge, accomplishment and recognition in the field?

There are many folks on this forum who have jobs during the week, but on weekends have made tens of thousands of dollars over the years shooting portraits, events, weddings and such, have exhibited, and even won museum competitions. These people may not devote 100% of their time to the trade, but I would still consider their service and work to be professional. I would not consider them hobbyists.

Do you discount these people?

I am a "pro"! Woo Hoo! Having a studio for 25 plus years now would put me over the novice stage I guess! I do about 50 weddings a year and about 300 give or take a few portraits. I derive 100% of my income from photography. I think that qualifies me I would think. Part time is not a pro. Part time is a hobby.

[adam8080]

Part time is not a pro. Part time is a hobby.

I guess that means that I should tell all my clients that I'm a hobbiest, and if that want pictures from a pro then they should go somewhere else. :rolleyes:

[sapearl]

Btw Donna, beautiful B/W work on your website - very nicely done. - Stu

[jcolman]

Can I be both a pro and a hobbyist??

I've been earning a living for the past 30 years making images, mainly in television and/or video production however I did a stint for about 6 years as a commercial photographer and then a newspaper shooter.

I shoot stills now mainly to feed my creative needs however I'm also just starting up a part time freelance business in addition to my full time job as a video producer/director.

[SuzyView]

I shoot mainly for my family and friends, but I have enough gear for a pro and will shoot at events as the pro. And I teach newbies and little old ladies how to use their cameras. But I have a revolving account at B&H like Tom (Belmondo). :)

[pixelharmony]

I am a "pro"! Woo Hoo! Having a studio for 25 plus years now would put me over the novice stage I guess! I do about 50 weddings a year and about 300 give or take a few portraits. I derive 100% of my income from photography. I think that qualifies me I would think. Part time is not a pro. Part time is a hobby.

50 Weddings a year ;) that's a lot of work.

I wouldn't consider myself a pro, just a hobbiest. About 1% of my income is from Photography...

[Dermit]

I am a "pro"! Woo Hoo! Having a studio for 25 plus years now would put me over the novice stage I guess! I do about 50 weddings a year and about 300 give or take a few portraits. I derive 100% of my income from photography. I think that qualifies me I would think. Part time is not a pro. Part time is a hobby.

OK, I guess I am a paid hobbyist who pays taxes on the money people pay me to do my hobby and write off gear I buy with my hobby money.

...so, I wonder, Donna, what if I derived 100% of my income from photography and was only making enough to barely get by. Then to suppliment my income I got a second job flipping burgers, but still made the same income from my photography business. Was I considered a pro photographer up until I took the second job and now considered a hobbyist with a camera? Did my abilities change? Or maybe since I did photography first and then took on the burger flipping job I am still a pro photographer but a burger flippin' hobbyist.

Or how about if my non-photography day-job is paying me $500,000/year and my part-time 'hobby' of photography makes $100,000/year. If I was making $100,000 on photography part time.... I still would not be consider a pro because it's a smaller percentage of my overall income (not 100%) and it's what I do part time?

My own personal definition of a pro photographer is one who is consistantly making money doing it on a regular basis, regardless of percentage of overall income. So just because you sold a picture or two, or took pictures of your step cousin in law's daughter's wedding for $20 and a ride on a tractor, that does not make you a pro.

For the most part one who does photography full time and as a main job typically is going to be quite good and very professional. But. I know plenty of weekend-part-time photographers who blow away many of the full time 'pros'. Defintely the exception more than the rule, but I know enough to know that the term 'professional' can and is often used quite loosely.

[sapearl]

Very well put Ron - I agree with your examples. There is no question that in many instances, the FT 100% pro will be the superior individual when compared to the individual who does it only ocassionally.

But IMHO I feel it's an invalid argument to say that anyone who does it less than 100% is NOT a pro. That denigrates the talents and creativity of many fine individuals out there with professional expertise and ability.

Yes - a person who does photography 100% of the time is a pro. But that does NOT mean that somebody is a hobbyist or an amateur if they spend any less than 100%.

In my mind, professionalism can also be measured by the quality of the end product, as well as the service delivered. It is not just a measure of how much time you spent on the job .;) Bet you didn't think your first post would stir up such feelings...:lol:

........so, I wonder, Donna, what if I derived 100% of my income from photography and was only making enough to barely get by. Then to suppliment my income I got a second job flipping burgers, but still made the same income from my photography business. Was I considered a pro photographer up until I took the second job and now considered a hobbyist with a camera? Did my abilities change? Or maybe since I did photography first and then took on the burger flipping job I am still a pro photographer but a burger flippin' hobbyist.

My own personal definition of a pro photographer is one who is consistantly making money doing it on a regular basis, regardless of percentage of overall income. So just because you sold a picture or two, or took pictures of your step cousin in law's daughter's wedding for $20 and a ride on a tractor, that does not make you a pro.

For the most part one who does photography full time and as a main job typically is going to be quite good and very professional. But. I know plenty of weekend-part-time photographers who blow away many of the full time 'pros'. Defintely the exception more than the rule, but I know enough to know that the term 'professional' can and is often used quite loosely.

[Dermit]

In my mind, professionalism can also be measured by the quality of the end product, as well as the service delivered. It is not just a measure of how much time you spent on the job .

Absolutely. And one good indicator of this is repeat business and a business that grows mainly by word of mouth. Let's face it, if you aren't any good you will eventually not be getting any business.

Oh, and I wanted to point out that just because I do not need any of the income I get from my photography does NOT mean that I underbid all the full-time pros out there. I make sure that I charge very similar to those that depend on the business to feed the family. And I've turned down many jobs to people who just did not want to pay me what I deemed as fair pricing... even when I would have loved to shoot it for nothing.

...oh, and, yes, Donna welcome to the forum :) We really are a nice bunch and most of us don't bite. :D

[pixelharmony]

Very well put Ron - I agree with your examples. There is no question that in many instances, the FT 100% pro will be the superior individual when compared to the individual who does it only ocassionally.

But IMHO I feel it's an invalid argument to say that anyone who does it less than 100% is NOT a pro. That denigrates the talents and creativity of many fine individuals out there with professional expertise and ability.

Yes - a person who does photography 100% of the time is a pro. But that does NOT mean that somebody is a hobbyist or an amateur if they spend any less than 100%.

In my mind, professionalism can also be measured by the quality of the end product, as well as the service delivered. It is not just a measure of how much time you spent on the job .;) Bet you didn't think your first post would stir up such feelings...:lol:

Very well put, I know many people who have such a large bank roll get shined out with end results from someone with a entry level kit camera and a good eye.

Back to Donna, you say you book 50 weddings a year and 300 portrait sessions.

At your rates that figures somewhere in the $300,000k yearly net. That's awesome.

[Dermit]

At your rates that figures somewhere in the $300,000k yearly net. That's awesome.

Yeah, but if she has a brick and mortar storefront, and maybe a few employees, then there's insurance, etc. you can kiss a good chunk of that 300 grand goodbye.

[Mike30D]

Part time is not a pro. Part time is a hobby.

Whatever..... I get so sick of hearing crap like this. I've seen a lot of part timers do better work than full timers. I think being a "pro" has a lot more to do with your level of professionalism and customer service (kinda one in the same) than it does with being a full time photographer. I know a part timer who does at least 30 weddings a year, sure does seem like a lot of work to be a hobby.

So Donna does that also mean that you're not a pro if you don't own your own studio? I hope not because there are lots of 'em out there that don't have one.

Not my words, but I like it:

"A real pro deals with whatever is thrown in front of them"

"A real pro makes no excuses to their clients they deliver images no matter what"

"A real pro produces images for their clients regardless of barriers in their way"

"A real pro is consistent, day in and day out"

"A real pro can do their job in digital or film, with a Nikon or Canon, with a manual Vivital 283 flash or a top of the line Canon 580ex II, and can maximize whatever gear is in their hands."

[Tandem]

When I retire from my day job in 170 days (not that I'm counting :)) does that make me full-time retired and part-time photographer or vise-versa?

[sfaust]

A professional to me is someone that is providing a service, generating an income, and using it as a source of income for their livelihood. The amount of income derived is irrelevant. Whether they have a full time job or not doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if they have a studio, or use a spare room in their house, or whatever.

To me, a professional (self employed vs employed since it fits us better) is someone skilled in a trade, service, or industry who runs a business as part or all of their livelihood. As a business, they are registered with their city, town, state, and federal government like any other business. They carry liability insurance, are organized as a business, use general accounting methods, and follow business tax laws and regulations. If you look at business and professionals such as doctors, dentists, auto shops, barbers, welders, plumbers, etc, they all generally fit that description.

So to me, if they are structured as a business, regardless of the level of income they derive, they are pros. If they are registered, have business liability insurance, a Federal EIN number, a Sales Tax nbr, and they pay estimated income taxes, file W9's with clients, etc, no question in my mind they are a professional.

Skills are a very poor way to determine professional status IMO. There are many working pros that have terrible skills (business, photography, people, etc), yet are running a full time legit business nonetheless. And there are amateurs that are highly skilled, yet never accept a paying job and do it solely as a hobby. The same is true for income, as it cross both boundaries at both ends of the spectrum.

Yet all those people out there carrying the financial, red tape, and overhead of a business structure are working professionally, and not hobbyists. You also won't find many professionals working full time and not adhering to a business structure either.

So to me, business structure is a great way to separate the two, if one feels the need to do so.

[tim]

Yep pro, weddings, 25-30 per year, full time in summer, in winter there are no weddings so I do other things. I started by reading books and forums, doing it cheap, joining a professional association, always reading learning and experimenting, then working my way up.

[sfaust]

For all you pros out there. Where did you start? How did you learn all you know now? Did you take classes or go to college for it?


My last post touched on the definition issue, but never answered the OP's question. Opps.

I also a work full time at it and derive all my income from it. 90% of my work is corporate commercial for marketing and advertising, mixed with some editorial. The remaining 10% is mixed, mostly model portfolios, pro-bono work (charities and such), or events. I have two people on staff that work with me regularly, but on a part time basis for the moment.

I learned in high school, and continued with it as a hobby. At one point in the late 80's, I decided it was time to try it full time, and didn't fair very well due to a lack of business skills. I just couldn't get the volume of business I needed to survive.

I tried a number of years later after I beefed up my business and marketing skills while in the corporate world, and that seemed to make a big difference. Ie, when the market was wide open, I had a hard time making it work. Yet the market is extremely competitive today, yet I have no problems bringing a steady stream of clients to my door. I firmly believe its my business ad marketing skills that make the difference. If I had those skills on the first attempt, I think I would have been successful in the first attempt.

My skills are self developed outside of a photography course in high school, and come from a lot of experimentation, reading, self training, and shooting, shooting, and more shooting.

To be successful, I think the following are key. Business and marketing skills, good cost and expense control, and excellent customer service and people skills. An assumed level of photographic competency is assumed, and lighting skills are crucial.

[Vailphotographystudios]

http://www.vailphotographystudios.com

I consider myself a pro, in a part time sense. I am also a student, a mother and a BARTENDER!!!!! lol. No really. I own a small studio in the Detroit area, I bartend on the weekends when I don't have weddings to help pay for my college. During the week and the day on weekends I fit in what ever work I can find. I think that your only as pro as you think, also getting paid and having clients love your work is important too.
I had the full time studio just outside of New Orleans and lost everything in Katrina. So I can see both sides of the coin; so to speak. Photography is an art form, it's putting your views into images.

[Karl Johnston]

For all you pros out there. Where did you start? How did you learn all you know now? Did you take classes or go to college for it?
Guess I'd like to know where to go next.
Thanks for the replies in advance :)

Becky

I felt a call to move back to the north, sort of in a spiritual sense. Everytime I tried to leave the north, it would draw me back, or something would happen that required me to stay a bit longer. I found photography in 2008 in a similar way to how most would find religion. I decided I had to become the best at it, to show the world what I could see, and in a unique way that nobody before me or at the time could do.

I'm an adventure/nature photographer and the majority of my income is derived from selling fine art prints, teaching privately and other freelance commercial work, stock of course like most. Most recently I have been working with someone else developing a book, and we do have plans for a film. Though that will likely be a while off, if not years.

I learned through experience and actually doing things, researching how to do it day and night and of course shooting. In 2009 I started full time photo, and freelanced and pushed prints through galleries, shows, to private clients, tourist markets and gift shops, museums, to tradeshows and then started getting paid to travel to new places and talk about my work. I have also explored into teaching and workshops but have yet to find the time for it.

Late 2009 I also had an accident and partially tore off my tendon in my left arm, which made things supremely difficult. No more freelancing, just straight prints and stock. No photography. Selling what I had already built up. It was in this time that I took a pause and really redefined my business skills, along with learning more about marketing and how to properly take care of other administrative tasks. It also allowed me to feel out the value of networking. It allowed to me realize that I had to have clients, not customers (thanks allen) or it would be very difficult to exist in a small market. It also drove my post count way the hell up on POTN. I realized in order to do well, I had to pick one thing and stick with it. Or brand the rest differently. So I chose adventure photographer.

However, I also am the established local photographer covering portrait, wedding and commercial work out of a studio. I work locally with a hair stylist and a casual assistant on most if not all photo shoots.

In order to get to this point it was juggling the money, establishing a name and a brand and learning how to manage a business more effectively. I read up a lot on business, and can recommend searching for industry specific blogs. Some of the most common ones of value to me to date are:

The Art Business - Resources for Visual Artists (http://www.squidoo.com/artbusiness#module7904015)
http://www.blog.hubspot.com
http://www.sageweddingpros.com
http://www.carfac.ca/


I ask for advice a lot too, whenever I'm unsure about something or approached with a job I haven't done before. Genuinely you can probably do the same - just e-mail someone who is in the shoes you would like to be however long down the road.

A lot of definitions vary when you say the word pro. To me, I consider it someone who is fully working as a photographer.

A lot of people tend to use the title to prove something. To "Level up." There is no system of "levels". It's an illusion. It doesn't prove anything. Being a pro photographer, to me, is not about being GOOD, or not about making XYZ amount of dollars. It's about knowing how to EXIST within the industry and fully be doing photography in the industry, involved in the industry, working fully within the industry, etc.

That's how I see and define a pro.I don't think skill has anything to do with it. I don't believe there is an end to how much you can know, how much you can learn, how "good" you can get. Or how well you can manage. I think it is important to be down to earth most times.

Definitely get an accountant to bring you up to speed. Also visit with your local city hall for establishing and setting up a business locally, what the requirements are. A business bank account to keep your personal/business income is also a must, but even before that look into an accountant because likely they have been through it all on their own and will be able to guide you to your local resources.. Also, get professional insurance (Not the home owners version; you need commercial insurance if you are operating as a business).

[Karl Johnston]

http://www.vailphotographystudios.com

I consider myself a pro, in a part time sense. I am also a student, a mother and a BARTENDER!!!!! lol. No really. I own a small studio in the Detroit area, I bartend on the weekends when I don't have weddings to help pay for my college. During the week and the day on weekends I fit in what ever work I can find. I think that your only as pro as you think, also getting paid and having clients love your work is important too.
Well you have one up on me....I wish I knew how to bartend. Seriously, some of the bartenders I've seen have SKILL to manage all those clients at once and still keep up/not break stuff/mix stuff properly.

:)

[Peacefield]

These "pro" threads always deteriorate into debating the definition of the word. Personally, I don't get hung up much on words, especially ones like "pro" that mean different things to different people. Let's face it, some who call themselves "photojournalist" don't truly understand the concept; what they really mean is they take candids because they never really learned the art of posing, painting with light, good composure, etc. so they call themselves PJ. Ahhh, but that's another long and nasty little topic.

Anyway, I'd call myself a semi-pro. Mostly weddings, some portraits, and some other types of events. I've been an avid hobbyist since the late 70's. I really hated the job my wedding photograher did for us in 1980 and the way the industry worked kind of rubbed me wrong. I decided to get in and shoot some weddings, do a nice job for some good people who couldn't otherwise afford a full-time professional, and make enough to pay for some equipment I couldn't otherwise justify. I was the 1980's equivalent of the CraigsList shoot and burn photographer; I'd process the film at a local photo store and those prints and the negatives passed to the couple for $250 plus the cost of processing. Not bad money 25 years ago. I found all my clients through direct mail reaching out to those who posted announcements in the local paper. I only did about 6 weddings owing to the demands and irregular schedule of my job.

I only moved to digital 3 years ago and it inspired me to have a more substantial go at weddings. I formed my business 2 years ago and now find myself shooting 12-15 weddings/year with a price that is essentially middle market. Things are cooking so nicely I'm always tempted to quit my "day job" and make a go of photography full time. I think I could do it and survive, but the reality is I earn a very substantial income at that day job. That plus benefits is just too much to give up to pursue photography. But I'd like to think I'm only a couple of years away from affording retirement which will allow me to more fully develop my photography business.

So maybe then, I'll get to call myself a pro.

[SnapLocally.com]

I'm also a "semi-pro". There isn't enough of a market where I live to do what I do full time.