To charge? And how much?

[9deuce9rr]

We had a lightning storm a couple weeks ago up here in WA and one of the pictures I took made it's way onto the local news.
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/3949/lightningwl7.jpg

Today I woke up, and found that the news company had sent me an email saying that the owner of Horizon Lines (the company that owns the large cargo ship in the picture) was interested in using the picture.
They are planning on having a large print made of it to hang from the wall inside their Bellingham office


Should I return their next email asking them for compensation or just allow them to use the picture free of charge?

[TheHoff]

Sell them the print or find out what they want it for... no reason to give away your work for free. Your equipment cost money and your time and expertise are worth something as well. Nice capture, btw.

[bildeb0rg]

Once the company get this image, expect to see it all over their advertising. This is worth a LOT to them. Charge accordingly.
Ask what their budget is, and negotiate for around 80% of this.
Gotta be worth the price of a new camera at LEAST.

[Tumeg]

Yeah, tell them you will print the photo for them and then ask them what size they would like.

I am not sure how you should price your prints so I will leave that for somebody more knowledgeable to answer.

[tim]

Charge them $1000 for a print up to 40", though some with commercial experience will probably say to charge more. That boat's worth millions of dollars, $1000 is nothing to them.

[9deuce9rr]

i like the way you think ;)

i emailed them back, telling them that i wanted to get it printed myself instead of sending them the file. And also informed them that i would not just give it to them and that i would be expecting something in return, essentially

[tim]

"Thank you for your inquiry. I'd be happy to supply a print up to 30x40" for a fee of $1000, or the processed digital file with limited usage rights for $5000".

[Vetteography]

I hope you get what you ask for, that is an outstanding shot!

[CanadianKitKat]

What a great capture! I'm not surprised that the company wants it. You should be able to get some serious cash for that. Good luck!

[9deuce9rr]

thanks for the input everybody! i'm still waiting to hear back from them... hopefully tomorrow when they open, i'll get an email from them.

i've never actually sold a photo before, so thanks again for helping me through the process! what kind of price would you recommend i not drop below? (keep in mind i'm a very... VERY poor college student lol)

[tim]

State your price, I suggested $1000, and don't negotiate. You might lose the sale, but it's a fantastic unique image so I doubt it.

[neilwood32]

That shot is a "one off", completely unrepeatable, and as such should be viewed as worth a lot more than a standard photo.

Think of it from the comanies point of view - they can get a photo taken of their boat anytime they want but they will never manage to get that shot again!

That makes it worth $$$$.

[9deuce9rr]

i just realized last night that the company is actually not local, but based out of North Carolina. Kind of a nice surprise, I feel a little bit more 'desired' this way lol

I just sent them a reply to their previous email, informing them that I would be willing to sell the digital, full res image for $800. i decided to go 800, rather than 1000 due to the fact that they will have to do all the printing... so wish me luck everybody :-)

[breadandbutter]

Good Luck and let us know what happens.

[TheHoff]

Good luck. $800 is better than $0 but I think the reason most here suggested to sell a print is that you would retain the photo rights that way. If you sell them the full-res image they are going to expect to have the right to do whatever they want with it; print it, put it in company materials, put it on their shareholder's report, etc. It really is worth more than $800 for the full rights. $800 for one large print is more like it.

[whiskaz]

i just realized last night that the company is actually not local, but based out of North Carolina. Kind of a nice surprise, I feel a little bit more 'desired' this way lol

I just sent them a reply to their previous email, informing them that I would be willing to sell the digital, full res image for $800. i decided to go 800, rather than 1000 due to the fact that they will have to do all the printing... so wish me luck everybody :-)

You were too kind! That's an awesome shot. I'd have copied/pasted Tim's email, myself :)

[tim]

Don't sell full rights to the image for $800, it's way too low. For $800 give them the right to print it and hang it in their main office, or any of their offices maybe.

[x2x3x4x5x]

I agree.

Giving them the file would be like allowing them to say they took the picture. You'd be giving away every and all right to the image.

$800 isn't worth it.

Start at say $800 for a print to hang in their main office. Anything other then that specific print they would have to contact you and set up pricing. Selling it to them for $800 for the full res file would allow them to use it online, in pamphlets, etc. It's not worth it to ya. Great capture by the way.

[sfaust]

I agree. Giving them the file would be like allowing them to say they took the picture. You'd be giving away every and all right to the image.

Giving them the high resolution digital file is not giving away anything. You can give anyone any size file you want, and without your permission they can't use it for anything. The actual file means nothing without the photographers permission to use it. When you deliver images to clients, you should always include paperwork that stipulates how the images can be used.

In this case, if the OP delivers the digital file to the client, it should include an invoice (or receipt) that states the cost and the usage for the image. It can be as simple as this;

Received $800 form client for usage of image "xyz". Upon full payment, the client is granted permission to print one (size) image for display within their company facility. No other usage is permitted without written permission, all other rights are reserved. Copyright remains the exclusive property of (name of registered copyright holder).

With the above delivered, you could give them 10,000 high resolution images, but they should immediately understand they can only use one image.

If you say nothing, and give them a disk of images, they may think they can use them all, but it would be the photographers mistake for not spelling out what they can or can't do with the photographers product. But even so, legally, they can't use anything without the photographers permission. Ignorance isn't an excuse, especially when the industry is structured the way it is. Its an opt in, not opt out ;)

[<AkulA>]

Any word yet!?

[whiskaz]

Giving them the high resolution digital file is not giving away anything...<clip>

Valuable advice as usual! Good information to know.

[jtjohn]

WERE WAITING!!!!!LOL

[9deuce9rr]

I do like the look of all 3 images. I would offer to compensate $150 for the three
images and would require a copy of the full res digital file. Our procedures will
require you to draft an invoice and I would supply an agreement document stating
that Horizon can use the image for promotional material only, and cannot sell or use
image for any other purpose. It also assures the right that you, the photographer,
can sell the image to other parties, if you choose. This is standard language we use
with all our image vendors. If this is acceptable, please advise.
Thanks & regards,



should i write them back and say no thanks? it's tempting cuz i'm real low on money right now and i still have the right to print and sell it elsewhere, but it's nowhere near what i would value the photo at...

[breadandbutter]

should i write them back and say no thanks? it's tempting cuz i'm real low on money right now and i still have the right to print and sell it elsewhere, but it's nowhere near what i would value the photo at...


Bear in the mind that negotiating a price is a common business practice. I would come back to them and up it and see what they say. I bet you the 150 is not firm.

I can tell you from experience.

[dreckis604]

150 dollars what the heck??? you could most likely sell it on EBAY for more then that!

This company Horizon Lines is much like sea span and has tons of money,,,, 150 dollars? they pay more for that in coffee daily...what a bunch of cheap skates.

[9deuce9rr]

Bear in the mind that negotiating a price is a common business practice.

I thoguht that might have been the scenario, but since this is my first time selling to a company I was not sure.


150 dollars what the heck??? you could most likely sell it on EBAY for more then that!

This company Horizon Lines is much like sea span and has tons of money,,,, 150 dollars? they pay more for that in coffee daily...what a bunch of cheap skates.

:P ya... i feel the same way! hopefully they were just being cheap and trying real hard to lowball me and will be willing to come up once i email them back.


thanks again everybody for helping me through the process! it's great to receive input from you that have gone through this before

[<AkulA>]

Hehe, good luck with the sale - I think they'd pay higher if you stick with it.

Also, whats up with your link in your sig, did you stop paying for the website name? lol

[bildeb0rg]

should i write them back and say no thanks? it's tempting cuz i'm real low on money right now and i still have the right to print and sell it elsewhere, but it's nowhere near what i would value the photo at...

Thank them for their interest, and inform them that another party is interested in sole rights for that image and the current offer is $1000.
If they are still interested, then they should submit an offer in excess of this figure...

[dreckis604]

Thank them for their interest, and inform them that another party is interested in sole rights for that image and the current offer is $1000.
If they are still interested, then they should submit an offer in excess of this figure...

agree 100%

[sfaust]

And if they would have offered $800?

If you accept $800 after you told them you had a buyer at $1,000, you end up with egg on your face because they know you were playing the 'shell buyer' routine. That's not a good way to start a relationship, exposing yourself as the snake oil salesman. If you don't accept it because you don't want egg on your face, then you're out $800. Not a good scenario either way. The 'shell buyer' is such an old trick and everyone knows it, it kind of puts you in the 'cheesy used car salesman' category when played.

If you want to set a $1,000 hard limit, just tell them that you value your time and skill, are asking fair market value for the images, and the price is what you need to sustain your business. They can understand that, and it will give you a lot more respect in the end. If you then later accept less, you can justify it in any number of other ways and not look like you were trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

[basroil]

You have to add at least two zeros to that sum, and that is for one time use. Even a small business wouldn't get anything other than point and shoot photographers for the price they want. Perhaps three zeros if the company is national and makes a revenue of over 10 million.

[greyswan]

sfaust has nailed it.
Cheers, Chris.

[bildeb0rg]

(1)And if they would have offered $800?

If you accept $800 after you told them you had a buyer at $1,000, you end up with egg on your face because they know you were playing the 'shell buyer' routine. (2)That's not a good way to start a relationship, exposing yourself as the snake oil salesman. If you don't accept it because you don't want egg on your face, (3)then you're out $800. Not a good scenario either way. The 'shell buyer' is such an old trick and everyone knows it, it kind of puts you in the 'cheesy used car salesman' category when played.

If you want to set a $1,000 hard limit, just tell them that you value your time and skill, are asking fair market value for the images, and the price is what you need to sustain your business. They can understand that, and (4)it will give you a lot more respect in the end. If you then later accept less, you can justify it in any number of other ways and not look like you were trying to pull the wool over their eyes.

1 They didn't offer $800 they offered $150

2 It's not a relationship, it's a one time transaction.

3 He's actually "out" a potential $150

4 "respect" and a buck ninety will gat you a coffee.

When a multi billion dollar company makes a ridiculous offer like that, then it deserves the contempt of evey "snake oil salesman" out there.

Just my opinion.

[sfaust]

They are planning on having a large print made of it to hang from the wall inside their Bellingham office

How may zeros are you adding for this ??? and on what figure?

Fotoquote, well used in the industry for pricing, has a historical database of prices used across the country. For a 20x24 image displayed in client public area, they reference a one time fee of $750 - $1,500.



1 They didn't offer $800 they offered $150

I think you mis-read or mis-understood my statement. I never said they had offered $800. I said;
"And IF they would have offered $800?" It was a question offered in order to show how drawing a hard line at $1,000 with the shell buyer routine might not be in his best interest.

2 It's not a relationship, it's a one time transaction.

If you treat the girl you just met as a one night stand, it surely will be! You never know where this connection will lead, so why burn the bridge without giving it a chance.

They are a large corporation, his work will be displayed in the building, its unique and people will comment on it. Eventually the right people in the company that use photographers will see it. Clients might also see it and ask who the photographer was for possible jobs.

Its a calling card, and a good sized one with the potential of a lot of traffic. It can have a good story attached to it, or a negative one. How you treat the client will set that tone, and the story that gets passed on to anyone that asks.

3 He's actually "out" a potential $150

Depends, if the company is playing the negotiation game and is willing to pay more, he is potentially out much more. Hence, the reason I suggest the "what if they would have offered $800".

Unless the bottom line for the OP is $1,000, then drawing that line in the sand is a mistake. If the clients top end is $650, and the OP would have accepted that, drawing a line at $1,000 eliminated the client from offering the $650, the OP from accepting it, and stopped the negotiation cold. Thus, he is out much more than the $150.

4 "respect" and a buck ninety will gat you a coffee.

It's gotten me a whole lot more, and I find it much more valuable than the buck ninety! ;)

[bildeb0rg]

Looks like your glass is half full, and mine's half empty Steve....

Either way, there's one tenth of a products' value on the table, and if I offered you that figure for your work, I don't think you would stick around to "negotiate".

[<AkulA>]

Maybe you should try a good ol boy approach. Take on of the local executives (if there are any around here) out for a cup of coffee at a swanky joint and show him the $400 8x10 on the wall. Talk sense and he might just cave!

[sfaust]

Either way, there's one tenth of a products' value on the table, and if I offered you that figure for your work, I don't think you would stick around to "negotiate".

This isn't about what I would accept, or how I would negotiate this. The OP was the one that asked the question, not I. I have overhead, a studio, employees, etc. My needs are far different from the OP's, and he shouldn't be setting his fees based on the burden of my overhead.

He was considering giving up the image for free in the beginning. $150 is a significant improvement from that, and he could be very happy with it as is. If he kept negotiating and got $500 he might be even more ecstatic. Maybe he could get $800. Maybe only $450. And all are prices I think he would be more than willing to accept, since any of them are more than what he was willing to accept initially.

So the logic of having him set a 'take it or leave it' price significantly higher than he is willing to accept escapes me. I'd rather help guide him to negotiate the best deal he can, and then he can decide if we wants to take it or leave it.

We see this differently, and that's fine. Its what makes the world go round, and negotiating interesting.

[tim]

They are a large corporation, his work will be displayed in the building, its unique and people will comment on it. Eventually the right people in the company that use photographers will see it. Clients might also see it and ask who the photographer was for possible jobs.

This happening would be very very rare. It's also bad business practice to rely on goodwill and future income, people will take you for whatever they can and I doubt you'd ever get more work out of it.

[sfaust]

This happening would be very very rare. It's also bad business practice to rely on goodwill and future income, people will take you for whatever they can and I doubt you'd ever get more work out of it.

Tim, don't get me wrong on this. I'm definitely not advocating that pricing should take goodwill or any future income into consideration whatsoever. I've never stated this in the past, and don't see my view changing on this anytime in near the future. Previous posts will bear that out.

I brought up the point about goodwill/future income in response to; "It's not a relationship, it's a one time transaction." IMO, its never a one time transaction. Your displayed work is like a giant business card, your reputation gets passed around from anyone you get in contact with. And with it could be a positive or negative story attached. How you deal with the client will determine which way the wind blows.

IMO there is no reason to play games, come up with fake buyers, lie, or fabricate anything. Any savvy business person will see right through that anyway, and drop you into the 'snake oil salesman' category. Just play it straight out and tell them your price is $XXX because that's what you need in order to maintain a healthy business. Its good business practice, honest, hard to argue against, and still leaves the door open if need be.

Beyond that, I do agree with you that in general having someone stumble upon your work and having it turn into future projects is very rare. But, for an image this unique, in the main lobby of a corporate office, I think its has a much better chance than usual, and will generate some buzz either way.

Just about everyone in the building will see that image at some point within the first few months it is there. That includes the entire marketing department, and everyone else from the top executive officers down to the shipping clerk.
Because it is a really unique image, with strong ties to the corporation, it will create a buzz when first put and people see it. And how else can you get your work in front of the entire management team every morning when they enter the building, meet clients in the lobby, etc? Thats far better than most other marketing methods IMO.

It may not generate any future work, but as a promotional piece, its tough to beat! I'm thrilled when a 4x6 mailer gets stuck to an art buyers cubicle wall. I'd be ecstatic to have a 20x30 in the corporate lobby! :)

[neilwood32]

My opinion, as someone who is by no means pro, is that $150 is not a good enough offer for that photo. Its a once in a lifetime image that the company will NEVER be able to get. Yes they can get any number of photos of their fleet in any number of different ways but it would be almost impossible to have that photo reproduced. The problem is that its only worth more money to that particular company.

With that in mind, i would ask for a meeting with the companies representative and sit down with him and explain why you think its worth more than $150. Im quite sure they will come up with more money.

[TheHoff]

They need a new website too, but Yahoo! says their market cap is 273 million... they will come up with more than $150.

[neilwood32]

any update on this one?

[lexi73]

ya also interested in an update

[whiskaz]

$150!

I wouldn't take that offer, not for that shot, not from this company. Keep at them, they ought to come up.

[9deuce9rr]

Sorry i disappeared on this guys.... we moved to a new house and had to wait for the internet to get hooked back up

they stuck with their offer of $150 and once i told them that i was sticking with $800, they told me they were no longer interested.

SO... all in all, the photo sits unsold.


and yea, my poor college student life couldnt' afford to keep up the site so it's down :(

[tim]

Good on you for sticking to your guns, $150 isn't really worth your bother.

[Hazey]

What a shame they didn't buy the photo for the asking price. It was a fantastic shot and i'm guessing it would easily be worth $400 just as a print for anyone to hang on their wall. Just sit tight and when you eventually get your site up and running again you can list prints for sale. :cool:

I guarentee you won't regret not selling it for $150..talk about cheapskates!

It wouldn't surprise me if you haven't heard the end of it from these guys...they may be waiting for you to cave....DON"T.
I would rather not sell it at all than sell it so beneath it's true value....let 'em be without it!