Help required - is my Colour Profiling rubbish?

[Hangerhead]

well, clearly I have done something wrong so let's see if i can write it down for some mad printing colour genius to sort out for me :)

I have an HP 7960 printer - recently bought new cartridges and run full cleaning and alignment cycles.
printing directly from Windows Explorer (right click, Print...opens the Windows built in print wizard) results in images that are as close to the screen as i've seen without me meddling :/ ahem...


I generated a Spyder2 calibration - my monitor (1900FP Dell lcd) was pretty close anyway - just a touch blue. profile confrims it has loaded whenever i start my PC up.

On PS CS3...well, this is where I think i am shooting myself in the foot.
the pdf attachment shows everything needed.
Anyway - Using my Canon 40D, i have left it set to shoot in sRGB (although thinking about changing to Adobe RGB).

I generate a JPEG (from RAW), process as default, so probably sRGB.

i use Ilford galierie smooth pearl - I found there IS a profile for my HP 7960 PhotoRet printer.
I download it.

Install it (right click, install profile...and also checked it was in the correct /color folder.
in the HP printer options, i select ICM colour management (This HAS been confirmed as the way this printer switches OFF any printer handling of colours)
in the Printer profile option in CS3, i have definitely selected the paper icc profile I downloaded.
Colour handling is Photoshop Manages Colours.
As per ilfords own suggestions, i used Perceptual Rendering and Black Point Compensation.
In Printer Properties, the paper type (as suggested by Ilford the smooth pearl paper) is HP PREMIUM GLOSSY - i have selected that.However - when i actually print the image out, it is very dark (not slightly), the colours are completely off (oversaturated and with a sort of muddy haze over the print).
it's not ink run-off or anything like that as the print from within windows is fine.

I looked also at the colour profiles - i think i should leave it set to Nort America PrePress2....but something else I've read suggested changing the RGB to Adobe...
anyway - i think i've utterly ballsed up all my Photoshop settings and :(
I wanna cry...:(
Now, i HAD also shot the image originally as sRGB and subsequnently also tried to to convert it to Adobe RGB.


anything else i might have missed? COnvert to profile? ask before converting..etc..I have no idea.

i've attached a pdf showing all the relevant screens in CS3 that I could think of...
whimper/whine/plead, etc...

[Hangerhead]

Maybe this needs to be moved to the RAW, PP and Printing forum?

[ChasP505]

Have you tried letting the printer handle color management and using the generic profile for HP Premium Plus or Advanced paper? I get good results with Ilford paper using the generic HP profiles.

I don't know if would want to convert from sRGB to Adobe RGB, a larger color gamut. I'd leave it as shot, in sRGB.

[shadowcat]

I had the same problem photoshop just doesn't do a good job with printing IMO I just stuck using windows for printing even after I switched to a canon pro9000 printer.

[René Damkot]

Assign or convert to AdobeRGB should not be used / needed.
You might want to look in the file from my sig for PS settings.

HP is a little funny that way, but indeed selecting "ICM" in the printerdriver is what most other printer companies would called "none".

In the pdf there is a screenshot of the print dialog box. I hope the preview there doesn't look the same on your screen as in the pdf? (like a 16 color gif)

I've never used a HP printer, or any windows version since 3.11, so here comes a really wild guess: the only thing I can think of at this moment, is a case of double profiling somehow between windows and PS. Is there an option to turn off colormanagement for the printer in windows?
Another option might be that the wrong paper type was selected, since HP determines the amount of ink used from that setting, but you say it was "per Ilford recommendation"?

[René Damkot]

I had the same problem photoshop just doesn't do a good job with printing IMO

Sorry, but this is plain rubbish.

[shadowcat]

Sorry, but this is plain rubbish.

It's not rubbish if you don't know how to get your calabrations right I just figured out how to do it so now my prints finally look good. my HP was good right from the box it didn't need calabrated.

[ChasP505]

Hangerhead-- In your printer preferences, don't you have another option besides "ICM"? My HP B8350 has "Application Managed Colors", which is what I select when I want Photoshop to color manage. Choosing "ICM", AFAIK, causes double color management.

In the Printing Preferences dialog box, under the Color tab, I have:

Color Management:
ColorSmart/sRGB
AdobeRGB 1998
Application Managed Colors
ICM

[Hangerhead]

Hi there - I was away last nght (leonard cohen gig :) )
Anyway...
Rene - ha - no, the image is not like that in real life - i kept trying to get a jpeg size that could be uploaded and in the end, used those images to make the PDF :)
And er - which file do you mean (in your SIG) for PS settings? in the myspace area??

Chas:
The profiles available in the printer settings are:
ICM (which is the one HP say I should use)
Adobe RGB
sRGB

Incidentally - Ilford Galerie pearl Smooth instructions say to install the icc profile and then when printing, to select Photo printing Best quality...When i do this, the colour management changes from ICM to Adobe RGB.
I changed it back to ICM - maybe i am double profiling?


DO the images in the PDF i uploaded help at all?

In CS3,

[René Damkot]

And er - which file do you mean (in your SIG) for PS settings? in the myspace area??

The link in my sig is the "color problems?" thread.
Hangerhead-- In your printer preferences, don't you have another option besides "ICM"? My HP B8350 has "Application Managed Colors",

There is also a link in there about HP printers and windows (an old one), which mentions the "ICM" setting, but not the "Application Managed Colors".
So, I for one would be curious about this; did HP change this?
Got a link? If so, I can put in in that thread :)

That might well be a cause for double profiling in the OP's case.

[Hangerhead]

The link for that printer/advanced colour management is here:

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c00063336&lc=en&cc=us&product=305383&dlc=en

[ChasP505]

No link as HP's documentation on this model is very sketchy. That's a big reason why it never became popular for photographers on a strict budget. The 7960 has much more documentation. But here is the text from the Help pop-up for the Color Management selection menu:

Select the color space in which to print your document. Color management defines the range of colors that can be printed. The printer software translates the colors of your document from their current color space to the color space selected:

·ICM (Image Color Management): Microsoft technology that helps ensure that a color image, graphic or text object is printed as close as possible to its original color and helps keep its colors consistent and accurate.
·ColorSmart/sRGB: Common standard color space, appropriate for most print jobs. Used for most Web-based documents and current imaging devices.
·Adobe RGB (1998): A newer emerging standard, renders more colors than sRGB. If your color image, graphic, or text object uses Adobe RGB (1998), then choose this option. When printing from professional applications using Adobe RGB (1998), turn off printer color management in the application and allow the printer software to manage the color space.
·Managed by application: This option allows the software program from which you are printing to manage the color of the document.

When I use "ICM", I choose the same profile in the Printing Preferences AND in Photoshop CS3's print dialog. Quite frankly though, I find that with these low end HPs, it just easier to let the printer handle the color management.

http://www.nmagent.com/myphotos/misc/printer01.jpg

http://www.nmagent.com/myphotos/misc/printer02.jpg

[Hangerhead]

the HP link for the 7960 is in the reply above:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=5927726&postcount=11 :)

It is the 7960 I am using.

[ChasP505]

Hangerhead, sorry for the diversion, but I want to repeat my suggestion to try Ilford's recommended settings for a non-listed HP printer and allow the printer to handle the color management. Try some tests with various generic HP paper profiles.

I do just this with my 8350 and the results are excellent. I choose HP Advanced photo paper. Your 7960 may have different generic profiles.