550EX manual setting - 420EX slave question

[Stoneh]

OK I want to be able to set up a manual flash using 550EX, the 420EX is a slave, my question is once the 550EX fires, will the 420EX fire in E-TTL mode? i.e will it fire a pre-flash first (the 420EX)? the reason im asking is I am thinking of mixing these guns with a few studio lights (Portaflash)

Many thanks for reading the post and any advice would be apreciated.


Regards

Stoneh

[Jon]

You'll get the pre-flash from both together, then they'll both fire their main flash together. Your problem will be in syncing the studio flash, as most slaves will try to fire them on the pre-flash.

[cmM]

if you want to use them in combination with studio strobes (set as optical slaves) then you'll have to use the flash in manual mode. I have 2 550EX's though... don't know if you can control the output of the 420EX slave manually.

[scottbergerphoto]

It is very difficult to mix Canon Speedlights(550/420) with studio strobes. The Canon flashes do not have optical slaves in the traditional sense. If you want your 550 to set off your 420, the 550 will emit a series of pulses to fire another 550/420. Those pulses will set off your studio strobes before the main flash is fired. The only way to do this is to use another trigger device like a Pocket Wizard on both Canon flashes to fire them and a PW to Canon hot shoe adapter. It gets expensive. If you want to mix speedlights with studio strobes, you are better off with speedlights that either have traditional optical triggers or ones that will work with optical slaves like Nikon. In addition, Canon flashes will not work with optical slaves.
Scott

[cmM]

It is very difficult to mix Canon Speedlights(550/420) with studio strobes. The Canon flashes do not have optical slaves in the traditional sense. If you want your 550 to set off your 420, the 550 will emit a series of pulses to fire another 550/420. Those pulses will set off your studio strobes before the main flash is fired. The only way to do this is to use another trigger device like a Pocket Wizard on both Canon flashes to fire them and a PW to Canon hot shoe adapter. It gets expensive. If you want to mix speedlights with studio strobes, you are better off with speedlights that either have traditional optical triggers or ones that will work with optical slaves like Nikon. In addition, Canon flashes will not work with optical slaves.
ScottScott, I usually just use strobes and reflectors, but sometimes I use the 550EX (both of them) and it works just fine, both in manual mode. From what I've noticed it's only the ETTL preflash that triggers the optical slave strobes, but the nearIR beam does not do anything to the strobe.

[Jon]

That's the 550, the 420 doesn''t have a pure manual mode.

[scottbergerphoto]

Scott, I usually just use strobes and reflectors, but sometimes I use the 550EX (both of them) and it works just fine, both in manual mode. From what I've noticed it's only the ETTL preflash that triggers the optical slave strobes, but the nearIR beam does not do anything to the strobe.
The 550's and 420's do not communicate with a near IR beam. They communicate by pulses from the main flash. If you set your Master to "flash off" and use it as a master, you will see visible pulses of white light coming from the flash head. The STE2 uses near IR.
Scott

[cmM]

The 550's and 420's do not communicate with a near IR beam. They communicate by pulses from the main flash. If you set your Master to "flash off" and use it as a master, you will see visible pulses of white light coming from the flash head. The STE2 uses near IR.
ScottOk, I was wrong. However, it doesn't trigger my studio strobe (optical slave), while the preflash always does.

[mdmedicgod]

Just out of curiosity. What do you mean canon speedlites will never work with optical slaves? I have an optical slave on my 420 and it works great.

[scottbergerphoto]

Just out of curiosity. What do you mean canon speedlites will never work with optical slaves? I have an optical slave on my 420 and it works great.
I should have said that a 550EX won't work with an optical slave like a wein peanut slave as it is unable to cycle the flash. How are you attaching the optical slave to the 420EX? The hot shoe doesn't fit most hot shoe slaves.
Scott

[mdmedicgod]

wein hot shoe slave. the 420 fits nice fine. Its doesn't have a detent to lock it, but it fits nicely.

[scottbergerphoto]

wein hot shoe slave. the 420 fits nice fine. Its doesn't have a detent to lock it, but it fits nicely.
I have 3 Wein Hot Shoe Slaves and none of them fit my 420EX nor my 550EX. My understanding from other posters is that none of the EX flashes will recycle properly with a Wein Peanut Slave or a Wein Hot Shoe Slave. Your experience is opposite many others:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic2/141061
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=003YvN
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/viewtopic_archives.php?TopicID=127621&page=0#1051274
http://www.robgalbraith.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=39087&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Scott

[PacAce]

OK I want to be able to set up a manual flash using 550EX, the 420EX is a slave, my question is once the 550EX fires, will the 420EX fire in E-TTL mode? i.e will it fire a pre-flash first (the 420EX)? the reason im asking is I am thinking of mixing these guns with a few studio lights (Portaflash)

Many thanks for reading the post and any advice would be apreciated.


Regards

Stoneh

Unless I'm reading it wrong, according to the 420EX manual, the 420EX will not fire if the master is set the "M" or "Mulit" mode. Have you tried that combo to see if the 420EX does, in fact, work?

[scottbergerphoto]

Leo,
You are correct that the 420EX Manual (page 43) says that. On Page 107 and 108 of the 550EX Manual it describes how to use the 550EX as a wireless master in Manual Mode with output being either uniform or varied. I believe that refers however to using it with another 550EX or 580EX. It doesn't say that, which probably leads to the confusion.
Regards,
Scott

[PacAce]

Leo,
You are correct that the 420EX Manual (page 43) says that. On Page 107 and 108 of the 550EX Manual it describes how to use the 550EX as a wireless master in Manual Mode with output being either uniform or varied. I believe that refers however to using it with another 550EX or 580EX. It doesn't say that, which probably leads to the confusion.
Regards,
Scott

Just tried the 550EX/420EX in manual setting and sure enough, the 420EX did not fire no matter how I putz around with the settings (RATIO, Power, etc.). Now we know for sure. :D

[scottbergerphoto]

Just tried the 550EX/420EX in manual setting and sure enough, the 420EX did not fire no matter how I putz around with the settings (RATIO, Power, etc.). Now we know for sure. :D
I should have added to my last post that I tried it and it didn't work. Sorry!
By the way, I got surprisingly few responses to my post at Robgalbraith.com about Cfn.17 and low light AF.
Regards,
Scott

[PacAce]

I should have added to my last post that I tried it and it didn't work. Sorry!
By the way, I got surprisingly few responses to my post at Robgalbraith.com about Cfn.17 and low light AF.
Regards,
Scott

If you ask me, I think after all the stink they made about it, they must be a little embarrassed to admit that CFn17 was the culprit after all, something that they could have figured out on their own if they had done some scientific and control testing. I mean, how much effort does it take for them to just come back and say yay or nay on whether CFn17 was the problem or not?

[scottbergerphoto]

If you ask me, I think after all the stink they made about it, they must be a little embarrassed to admit that CFn17 was the culprit after all, something that they could have figured out on their own if they had done some scientific and control testing. I mean, how much effort does it take for them to just come back and say yay or nay on whether CFn17 was the problem or not?
I was very greatful when you suggested it. Hey, who knew?
Regards,
Scott

[mdmedicgod]

OK.... I know what all the post and replies say about opitcal slave and the 420. Granted I am novice, but I just mounted my 420 with wein opitical slave to a light stand. Popped the built in flash on my 300D. Did 20 test shots. Out 20 shots the 420 fired flawlessly on 17 of them. The other 3 fired prematurely during the preflash. However, the flash didn't lock up. Its just recharged and was ready for the next shot. (note.. only on those 3 shots did my camera emit a pre flash. the other 17 it did not)

[scottbergerphoto]

OK.... I know what all the post and replies say about opitcal slave and the 420. Granted I am novice, but I just mounted my 420 with wein opitical slave to a light stand. Popped the built in flash on my 300D. Did 20 test shots. Out 20 shots the 420 fired flawlessly on 17 of them. The other 3 fired prematurely during the preflash. However, the flash didn't lock up. Its just recharged and was ready for the next shot. (note.. only on those 3 shots did my camera emit a pre flash. the other 17 it did not)
I can't even get my 420 or 550 to fit on a Wein Hot Shoe Slave. I've read that you need to modify the flash foot or slave to get it to fit. I just don't know! I'm going to send an e mail to Wein.
Scott

[mdmedicgod]

Scott,

FYI this is the slave that I am using http://www.penncamera.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1510 I guess I have baffled the photographic minds on this forum. Sorry. LOL

[Spatch]

Stoneh,

I cannot answer the 550/420EX questions but as I have some portaflash units I can advise you that if you want to use the 550/420EX with the stobes then you will need to cover the optical slave sensor on the strobes otherwise they will fire on the pre-flash. You will then need to connect the stobes to your camera via the sync connection. This way they will all fire at the same time.

Apologies if I have just stated the obvious.

Mark.

[Stoneh]

Thanks for the reply

The idea i got is that most slave units are triggered by a flash. Will the 550EX fire as a slave if I use the studio strobes as the main flash (via sync lead?)

Apologies for sounding silly, I dont have a 550EX or a 420EX as yet - Just trying to see if its worthwhile investing in them. Looks like the 420 is not that useful for this type of use. I have a Studio flash unit and a 380EX at the moment

Thanks to all who replied.

[scottbergerphoto]

I just got this reply from omegasatter.com, a supplier of Wein products:
"The hot shoe slave is a standard size. However, Canon flashes very in
size from very thin foot (the flash will actually wobbles in the shoe)
to very thick as you have experienced. If the slave is new, you may try
getting a replacement slave, but this will probably yield the same
result."

Regards,
Scott

[Jon]

OK.... I know what all the post and replies say about opitcal slave and the 420. Granted I am novice, but I just mounted my 420 with wein opitical slave to a light stand. Popped the built in flash on my 300D. Did 20 test shots. Out 20 shots the 420 fired flawlessly on 17 of them. The other 3 fired prematurely during the preflash. However, the flash didn't lock up. Its just recharged and was ready for the next shot. (note.. only on those 3 shots did my camera emit a pre flash. the other 17 it did not)
Were the camera settings any different on those 3 shots than the other 17 when you didn't get a pre-flash? Or did you maybe need a pre-flash for focussing?

It's possible that the battery type makes a difference in slave performance. When I was first trying my 550EX and 420EX, the 420EX wouldn't fire as a slave (Canon wireless) unless I used alkaline batteries. Even freshly-charged NiMH cells wouldn't do it.

[mdmedicgod]

it seemed that the flash was needed for focusing.

[Jon]

Can that be disabled on the DR? I don't recall if it's a CF or regular menu item (but seem to recall it's a CF, so you'd need the hack).

[Jim Larson]

it seemed that the flash was needed for focusing.

Errr. . . .something sounds odd.

First, the 300D built in flash works with ETTL metering, and has no "manual" setting for the flash. Therefore, it will ALWAYS fire a preflash a small moment before the full flash.

You can seperate the preflash from the main flash a few seconds by using FEL.

You can tell this behaviour by watching the viewfinder as you hit the shutter. Do you see the flash in the viewfinder? no -> you don't, because the flash only fires when the shutter is open. What you see is the preflash. You won't notice the flash when you fire the shutter if you do FEL. . .because the FEL *is* the preflash and the camera won't fire a second preflash pulse when you click the shutte.

[Spatch]

Stoneh,

The 550EX will fire as a slave if you can find a slave unit to drive it properly (see Scotts posts re Wein slave units). I may be wrong here but I assume that the 550EX would fire at full power if slaved like this (my 420EX does this as it does not have a exposure feedback sensor). I tend not to use the 420EX when using stobes as I really do not need it (plus I cannot control the power if it is off camera), the 420EX is used only on camera when out and about.

Mark

[Stoneh]

Spatch:

I have the Portaflash 336VM flash with the appropriate sync cable. These work fine, If I buy the 550EX will that work as a slave with my unit? You mentioned that you have some portaflash eqipment. Have you had a chance to test these, im really interested in the 550EX.

Thanks for the info friend.

[Spatch]

Stoneh

I have two of the 336VM and a 420EX, so I do not have any experiece with the 550EX I am afraid. Having said this, before getting the second 336VM I tried to use portable flash units (along with the 336) but could never get them to recycle properly when connected to an optical slave. The setup I had was to connect the sync cable to the 336 and try to slave the 420EX. Anyway, with the 420EX not recycling this setup was unusable (the other problem is that the 420EX would fire 100% everytime so there was no adjustment which also made it very difficult).

One way that did work was to put the 420 on the camera (camera is alway in manual by the way) and sync the 336 with a cable. As long as you covered the optical slave on the 336, you would get both firing at the same time, and with FEC you could adjust the power of the 420 as well as that of the 336. The only problem with this is that it meant you always had a flash right in front of the subject which may not have been wanted. In the end I just bought another 336 (as they are not that expensive).

So I suppose what I am trying to say is, if you can get a slave to recycle the 550EX properly (I am probably going to buy the one that mdmedicgod has) then you should be able to slave it from the 336 but I assume you will always have the problem of it firing at full power.

Mark.

[Stoneh]

The 336 are very good units, im sure you can use them as slaves, ive tried this with my 380EX but they fire with the pre-flash. My understanding is that with the 550EX, i would set it to fire in manual mode so there shouldnt be a pre-flash - this will trigger the 336 (in theory anyway)

Just had a look and Canon have bought out a new 580EX, I hope to get this soon. I do quite a lot of portable stuff so thats why I was wanted the canon flashes and I cant afford 2 550's or 580ex'es at the moment

[Spatch]

Yes, you can slave the 336VM's, they have the optical slave built in, and yes, you should be able to slave them from the 550EX if it is in manual (assuming no preflash), but won't the 550EX always fire at 100% with no control? I do not see how you will be able to use this effectively if it is always firing at 100%.

With a 550EX and 336VM, I still think the best way would be to sync the 336 with a cable (with its optical slave covered) and run the 550EX off the top of the camera.

[Stoneh]

im sure you can adjust the power and zoom manually on the 550ex