Archery photography with a DSLR?

[FlipsidE]

I'm curious. I was lookin around on an archery newsgroup lately, and I noticed some Archery pictures (mainly of good lookin female archers :) ). Anyway, I'm curious how this kind of shot would be accomplished. The photos of the archer standing ready to fire are easy enough. Just gotta get a feel for it and time it correctly. But, there's no way to tell when the archer is going to loose the arrow and let it fly to the target.

In most sporting events, shots are predictable...the big catch in a football game, bat meeting the ball at a baseball game, trick being thrown at a wakeboarding championship, car taking a corner...all fairly predictable.

But when trying to take photos like the ones I'm about to show you (I didn't take these, and unfortunately, I don't know who did), how would you do it? The very same archer could take five seconds to aim one time, 10 the next time, 30 the next time, and back to 10 the next time. It's not, at all, predictable. In a film camera, I guess you could just shoot until your roll of film is gone. But, for DSLR owners, woudl this simply be a situation where spray and pray (and hope the buffer holds out) is not only acceptable, but actually the only possible way to capture something like this?

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/040818_03.jpg

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/040818_08.jpg

Thanks

FlipsidE

[CyberDyneSystems]

My guess,..

Just like in the wild west, if you watched them for a while.. you'd begin to see a change in the shooter before the moment of release.. ei: keep your eyes on the shooters face,. not on there hands. Works a charm ;)

Did anyone tell the young lady in yellow that someone had put there tinker toys on her Bow?

[markubig]

Did anyone tell the young lady in yellow that someone had put there tinker toys on her Bow?
hehe . . . looks like LEGOS

[FlipsidE]

Did anyone tell the young lady in yellow that someone had put there tinker toys on her Bow? - LOL!! Classic. They look exactly like Tinker Toys! I couldn't place 'em until you said that.

FlipsidE

[Neens_wa]

HA! Tinker toys/legos...

My daughter is in archery, and if they're practicing - well, it does depend on the shooter. Depends on what you're trying to fix with your shot, so naturally you're going to 'think'.

IF you are in a competition, it's quite different. You have "X" amount of time to shoot "X" amount of arrows.

I'd find my focus point, keep the shutter button depressed half way (probably want a tripod or monopod so you don't get pooped )and be ready to fire. BTW - there's very little movement. The only thing you'll see is her fingers release the string. Once you're focused, keep your camera where you want it, just divert your eyeballs to her fingers and I'm sure you won't have any problem, long as you're patient.

I'm wondering what lens they were using. The rules are so stringent, you should NOT be on the sideline, and the angle from which this was shot is an angle I don't think anyone at our range would ever be allowed to position themselves in...

Nice find and good point. thanks for showing!

nina

W

[FlipsidE]

A few more from the same set for your viewing pleasure:

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/canadese.jpg

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/IMGP0488_tm.jpg

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/jennichols_02.jpg

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/karen_scavotto2.jpg

FlipsidE

[DocFrankenstein]

How to get that shot? 5 or 8 frames per second till your buffer is full. :confused:

I know in shooting, the shot should be a surprise for the shooter himself... let alone some guy taking pics of him...

Same in archery... you're gradually releasing it till it just slips. If you let go at some particular moment, the whole bow is gonna shift and the arrow won't hit the target.

Cheers

[FlipsidE]

Same in archery... you're gradually releasing it till it just slips. If you let go at some particular moment, the whole bow is gonna shift and the arrow won't hit the target.
- That's why I honestly believe I'd prefer this type of release over using my fingers. BUt, unfortunately, I haven't been able to try archery yet.

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/Tag5_url_002_detail.jpg

FlipsidE

[CyberDyneSystems]

Archery?

Those things have more rigging and pulleys than a 12 meter racing yaught! :lol:

Amazing eveolution of an essentially archaic peice of equipment... truly a bizarre exception to the rule of obsolescence.

And loads of FUN!

[pradeep1]

That's a hobby I should consider. What's up with all those hot chicks doing archery? How come photography is not the same way. :p :rolleyes:

[Volatile]

I agree with pradeep. Flipside has got me thinking that archery is going to be hook-up city.

I'll tell you another sports shot that is hard to time..... golf. The clubhead travels really fast, and you have to press the shutter above the waist on the downswing, any later and the club will be back above the waist by the time you get your picture. Plus, if you are early, you get a picture of some dude addressing his ball with a funny look on his face...

[dhbailey]

Do you really think it's safe, going up to a woman with a bow and arrow who has shown her expertise and deadly accuracy, to ask for a date? I'd think twice and join a bridge club or somesuch non-lethal sport group. :-)

[Ikinaa]

interesting freeze on the first two pictures... great shots...

Hmmm shooting (in the photography way) archery is interesting because of the girls ;)

Now another thought... how about mounting a camera on the arc (one of those modern arcs...) not for shooting the cam away but for IS ? With all the gadgets and concentration you sure can shoot at 400mm with 1 sec exposure without blurring :D

[DocFrankenstein]

Do you really think it's safe, going up to a woman with a bow and arrow who has shown her expertise and deadly accuracy, to ask for a date? I'd think twice and join a bridge club or somesuch non-lethal sport group. :-) And I thought I was the only one fearing the anger of the amazons.

If she doesn't like me, she'll call her amazon friends and they'll hunt me down... using broadheads: :rolleyes:

http://images.google.ca/images?q=tbn:agVWOIKuMooJ:www.bowhuntingmag.com/bowhuntingmag/tactics/BWstone_1016A.jpg

Very probable scenario... Happened to one of my friends.

[iwatkins]

I've been doing archery for several years. The first two shots are recurve archery, i.e. the proper stuff. :)

I doubt that the photographer was actually with the camera in those shots, unless he was very brave or it was a very long lens and he was well off to the side (probably the later).

Either way, this could be acheived by simply holding the shutter down for a burst of shots be it with the finger or with a remote release.

If you watch archers who do recurve they pull the string and arrow back to their chin, there is a slight pause as they get their sight picture and then they pull a little more and release at the same time, i.e. the draw should be an almost continous movement where the arrow is still going backwards at the point of release.

Anybody who has watched top of the line archers for a while could easily estimate the point of release within a few tenths of a second.

Therefore, I guess the first two shots are a combination of burst mode and knowing when the release is about to happen.

More interesting for me is the actual arrow, you can clearly see the twist that has been inparted by the bow and you can see the bend in the arrow as well, both of which will stablise down range into an arrow that is flying very straight and spinning very fast, i.e. what you want.

Cheers

Ian

[FlipsidE]

You guys crack me up!! http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

I've been interested in archery for many years now, but unfortunately, I can't find a single place in my city where archery equipment is sold or where an archery range is available.

I live in Western Upstate South Carolina. In other words, I'm RIGHT in the dead middle of bowhunting territory. Not only is it difficult to find a range or an equipment store, but in the past, when I did find one that was even somewhat decently close, it was a bowhunting store only.

I would like to actually learn to use a bow, but I don't want to spend a lot of money and time on it. I would honestly prefer to just to plunk around with a bow and arrow...maybe even in my parents back yard. Their back yard is about 40 yards by 40 yards. If I was to go ultra short range, I don't see how that would be an issue (but then again, there might be some law against it).

The only other place to find archery ranges and/or equipment shops around here is at least 40 minutes away if not up to a few hours away. I think I've just finally given up on the idea. As much as I would LOVE to do it, I just can't see that it would even be slightly possible w/out a large investment in time and money to even get started. I could probably find a recurve bow at a pawn shop as well as a few full length arrows somewhere just to get started. But, then there is the gasoline cost to get at least 40 minutes away if not almost an hour and a half away (the two closest) to get a few lessons. And, then if I still can't shoot in the city, I'll have to go way out in the sticks to find a range. There is a range about an hour from here that my brother-in-law and I go to about once every two to three months. But, I would just hate to have spent that much in time and money to get into the sport and then only get to fire a bow once every two to three months.

I think I'd have fun photographing an archery event. But, I don't think I'll see one as nicely organized as the pictures above unless I was willing to travel at least 90 to 100 miles to get to it (middle state, SC or even up to Charlotte, NC). I doubt my current setup would allow me to capture any really good pictures though unless they didn't mind terribly people semi-close behind and to slightly off to the side of the archers.

Anyway...just thought I'd share. If anyone has any advice on other ways to get into archery, I'm all ears.

FlipsidE

[ron chappel]

I'm sure those shots are either one in a million/shoot till the buffer is full examples OR

I wonder if there is a kind of remote shutter tripping thing going on with some kind of switch at the string release or maybe a lightbeam trip?

[FlipsidE]

A few more for ya since you all seem to be enoying the others :)

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/040815_21.jpg

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/GABRIELLA.jpg

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/big_lenanir1.jpg

http://www.wesculbertson.com/photos/d4_09.jpg

FlipsidE

[aikidoforever]

How to get that shot? 5 or 8 frames per second till your buffer is full. :confused:

I know in shooting, the shot should be a surprise for the shooter himself... let alone some guy taking pics of him...

Same in archery... you're gradually releasing it till it just slips. If you let go at some particular moment, the whole bow is gonna shift and the arrow won't hit the target.

Cheers

Same in archery... you're gradually releasing it till it just slips. If you let go at some particular moment, the whole bow is gonna shift and the arrow won't hit the target."[quote]

On the contrary, there is never a surprise in professional shooting sports. A pro shooter knows exactly when the shot will break. I shoot competitive pistol and all pro bullseye shooters know that it's all about tempo. Pistol and archery is the same as you need to raise the "weapon" to sight in the target. If you watch the archer long enough you will get a sense of their tempo and come very close to when their shot will break. There is a clear pattern in the amount of time it takes the person to raise the "weapon" from ready and how long it takes to acquire the target, then fire. Yes, you might want to start a burst but if your tempo is in sink with theirs you shouldn't be off more than half a second.

Cheers,

Ivan

[Scottes]

Yes, you might want to start a burst but if your tempo is in sink with theirs you shouldn't be off more than half a second.
How far does one of those arrows travel in half a second? Half a second seems like a long time, really.

[ILoutdoorcpl]

I've shot competitive archery for about 15 years and the release is a very hard thing to catch for one main reason. If the archer is using a mechanical release and using it properly, it will be a total surprise to the archer when it releases. One of the most common types of releases can be set for various amounts of tension. As the archer tightens their back muscles it causes a natural roll in the release that causes it to fire. If the archer is using a traditional finger release its basically the same, the archer slowly relaxes their fingers and the string will slip through. Good luck capturing the shot and I'd love to see some of the photos. Jim

[aikidoforever]

How far does one of those arrows travel in half a second? Half a second seems like a long time, really.

The arrow would travel quite far. Half a second is a guess as to how long you might be off when you are in sink with their tempo (max). My point is that you have a better chance to get the photo if you are in sink. There shouldn't be any surprise. Being in sink with the shooter is not that hard to do if you watch them closely.

Ivan

[FlipsidE]

From what I've read, I think your average arrow is travelling at around 250 feet per second. So, in a half a second, it'd be 125 feet away from the bow.

FlipsidE

[ILoutdoorcpl]

As far as arrow speed goes. If you are watching a shooter in an event like an IBO or ASA 3-D shoot, the arrows are usually leaving the bow between 280 and 320 feet per second.
If any of you are interested in archery, there is a video put out by Easton several years ago that is really interesting. Its shot in extremely slow motion and seeing what the bow, string and arrow do during release is almost scary.

[PacAce]

I used to be into archery (compound bow) many years back. Most archers (at least in the club I was in) almost never use their bare fingers to pull the bow. They use a gizmo that they hold in their hand and use to pull the bow string. This gizmo has a trigger which they would push to release the string and sends the arrow flying off. There's no way any photographer will be able to anticipate the release by watching the fingers because there will be no movement except for the thumb which is usually hidden from view. But the fact that the two top photos show not just the release of the arrows but the arrows are in almost the same spot in the air leads me to think that maybe some type of remote triggering device (maybe sound activated?) was used to take those shots. "Spray and pray" is always a possibility, of course. :D

[aikidoforever]

I've shot competitive archery for about 15 years and the release is a very hard thing to catch for one main reason. If the archer is using a mechanical release and using it properly, it will be a total surprise to the archer when it releases. One of the most common types of releases can be set for various amounts of tension. As the archer tightens their back muscles it causes a natural roll in the release that causes it to fire. If the archer is using a traditional finger release its basically the same, the archer slowly relaxes their fingers and the string will slip through. Good luck capturing the shot and I'd love to see some of the photos. Jim

I find it odd that you would say that the shot is a total surprize to the shooter. But then again I'm not an archer. However, I would believe that there isn't a real difference between pistol and archery. When you raise your pistol and focus the front sight on the target, you will start to circle the target. Usually it will take a second or so for that circling to tighten up. But when you anticipate your front sight finally crossing over the 10X your trigger is already squeezed and the shot is fired. If I didn't know precisely when my shot would break, like a surprize, how would I ever plant one in the bull? I can't imagine archery being any different. No one can hold a sight dead on the bull and wait for that unexpected shot to break.

Back to photography, it's definetly possible to capture, look at the first post.

Cheerios!

Ivan

[Tom W]

That's a hobby I should consider. What's up with all those hot chicks doing archery? How come photography is not the same way. :p :rolleyes:

'Cause every time a female enters the web site, most of us go into hormonal imbalance and scare the "L" out of their lenses. :)

[Tom W]

I've shot competitive archery for about 15 years and the release is a very hard thing to catch for one main reason. If the archer is using a mechanical release and using it properly, it will be a total surprise to the archer when it releases. One of the most common types of releases can be set for various amounts of tension. As the archer tightens their back muscles it causes a natural roll in the release that causes it to fire. If the archer is using a traditional finger release its basically the same, the archer slowly relaxes their fingers and the string will slip through. Good luck capturing the shot and I'd love to see some of the photos. Jim

That's very much similar to competitive rifle shooting. The actual release should be totally unanticipated - otherwise, you will move or jerk and throw the shot.

[FlipsidE]

'Cause every time a female enters the web site, most of us go into hormonal imbalance and scare the "L" out of their lenses. :)
- LOL!! HAHAHA!! http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gifhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif You should see it when a good lookin woman makes an appearance on the video gaming board I frequent. It's just crazy. They are a lot worse than here.

FlipsidE

[aikidoforever]

I used to be into archery (compound bow) many years back. Most archers (at least in the club I was in) almost never use their bare fingers to pull the bow. They use a gizmo that they hold in their hand and use to pull the bow string. This gizmo has a trigger which they would push to release the string and sends the arrow flying off. There's no way any photographer will be able to anticipate the release by watching the fingers because there will be no movement except for the thumb which is usually hidden from view. But the fact that the two top photos show not just the release of the arrows but the arrows are in almost the same spot in the air leads me to think that maybe some type of remote triggering device (maybe sound activated?) was used to take those shots. "Spray and pray" is always a possibility, of course. :D

I would really love to try archery. Did you hunt or just shoot at the club?

Regarding the gizmo and seeing the thumb release - you wouldn't want to be focused on the person's thumb. There is no way you would capture the arrow in flight by pressing the shutter release the second you saw anything move. The arrow would already be sitting on target. And as far as a remote device goes, no way. These photos were taken by some person standing with their gear at a distance perhaps 50 degrees towards the target. With a deep depth of field using a bursts. No remotes. I'm sure the person that took those photos did have the bulk of them not include the arrow in flight.

As mention before, the secret lies in being in sink with the shooter's tempo. Pro shooters and professionally trained students have a very consistent shooting pattern that revolves around a tempo. Yes, I'm speaking from experience but regarding competitive bullseye pistol. I would bet there is no difference between pistol and any other shooting sport.

Cheerios!

Ivan

[aikidoforever]

That's very much similar to competitive rifle shooting. The actual release should be totally unanticipated - otherwise, you will move or jerk and throw the shot.

Sorry Tom, you're wrong. Pro shooters, regardless of what they are shooting with, know precisely when the shot is going to break. Otherwise they would never be able to put 10 in the 10X. They are not guessing and it's certainly not luck. You're talking about the average shooter or hunter. 99% of shooters don't fire a minimum of a 1000 rounds per week like the pros do. (I'm not talking about full autos like some of you lucky American's get to shoot!)

Having fun! :-)

Ivan

[PacAce]

I would really love to try archery. Did you hunt or just shoot at the club?

Regarding the gizmo and seeing the thumb release - you wouldn't want to be focused on the person's thumb. There is no way you would capture the arrow in flight by pressing the shutter release the second you saw anything move. The arrow would already be sitting on target. And as far as a remote device goes, no way. These photos were taken by some person standing with their gear at a distance perhaps 50 degrees towards the target. With a deep depth of field using a bursts. No remotes. I'm sure the person that took those photos did have the bulk of them not include the arrow in flight.

As mention before, the secret lies in being in sink with the shooter's tempo. Pro shooters and professionally trained students have a very consistent shooting pattern that revolves around a tempo. Yes, I'm speaking from experience but regarding competitive bullseye pistol. I would bet there is no difference between pistol and any other shooting sport.

Cheerios!

Ivan

If no remote activation device was used, then I definitely would have to agree with you. Knowing the pace and rhythm of the shooters would be the only way of getting those shots without "wasting" too many frames. :)

As for my archery, it was strictly target. I could never get myself to point an arrow at a living thing and shoot it. :(

And now that the subject of archery has come up, maybe I should get back into it again. Of course, I'll have to update my equipment since it's kind of old by today's standard. For example, I don't have those huge "Lego" counter balance weight that's pictured in the 2nd photo. :mrgreen: :lol:

[Tom W]

Sorry Tom, you're wrong. Pro shooters, regardless of what they are shooting with, know precisely when the shot is going to break. Otherwise they would never be able to put 10 in the 10X. They are not guessing and it's certainly not luck. You're talking about the average shooter or hunter. 99% of shooters don't fire a minimum of a 1000 rounds per week like the pros do. (I'm not talking about full autos like some of you lucky American's get to shoot!)

Having fun! :-)

Ivan

I've shot competitive riflery - I stand by my statement.

[aikidoforever]

If no remote activation device was used, then I definitely would have to agree with you. Knowing the pace and rhythm of the shooters would be the only way of getting those shots without "wasting" too many frames. :)

As for my archery, it was strictly target. I could never get myself to point an arrow at a living thing and shoot it. :(

And now that the subject of archery has come up, maybe I should get back into it again. Of course, I'll have to update my equipment since it's kind of old by today's standard. For example, I don't have thost huge leggo counter balance weight that's pictured in the 2nd photo. :mrgreen: :lol:

Don't you just hate it when someone you meet or know is into something you use to be in, passionately!? As you mentioned, you now need to go buy the latest (which is usually the most expensive) gear. Another hobby.

I have a friend who is really into carpentry and showed me some of his projects. I use to dabble way back when, so naturally I want to get back into it. Let see, a new tablesaw, planner, dang this is going to get expensive. Not to mention the time. Photography, pistol shooting, camping, hiking, fishing, guitar playing, playing with the kids, working... yeah, I guess I have time for carpentry!! NOT!

Cheerios! :-)

Ivan

[PacAce]

I've shot competitive riflery - I stand by my statement.

I have to agree with Tom on this one, especially for archery. Whether using the bare fingers or the mechanical releases, the archer will know when he wants to start the release but he will not know at what point the string is actually release because the release has to be done in a very slow easy motion. Forcing a release will jerk the bow and most probably cause a miss of the target.

[PacAce]

Don't you just hate it when someone you meet or know is into something you use to be in, passionately!? As you mentioned, you now need to go buy the latest (which is usually the most expensive) gear. Another hobby.

I have a friend who is really into carpentry and showed me some of his projects. I use to dabble way back when, so naturally I want to get back into it. Let see, a new tablesaw, planner, dang this is going to get expensive. Not to mention the time. Photography, pistol shooting, camping, hiking, fishing, guitar playing, playing with the kids, working... yeah, I guess I have time for carpentry!! NOT!

Cheerios! :-)

Ivan

Now that you mentioned the expense part of it, I guess I'll stick to photography where the money is better spent. :mrgreen:

I'll take flipside's idea and just take pictures of archers. :lol:

[aikidoforever]

I have to agree with Tom on this one, especially for archery. Whether using the bare fingers or the mechanical releases, the archer will know when he wants to start the release but he will not know at what point the string is actually release because the release has to be done in a very slow easy motion. Forcing a release will jerk the bow and most probably cause a miss of the target.

So the time between the start of release to the time of actual release is how long? Typically? Whatever it is, is it consistent? Pistols and rifles do in fact have a time lag as well, albeit a short one, between the time the trigger is pulled and the firing pin hits the primer. However, it's not unexpected as it is always consistent. If in fact in archery the time is inconsistent, then perhaps you could say it's unexpected however I certainly would say the archer is surprized. I will ask you the same question I asked before. If the shot is in fact unexpected, how do the pros get consistent groupings?

And yes, in pistol and rifle shooting, forcing the trigger does also jerk the barrel in the direction of your palm, thus affecting the path of the bullet.



Yeehaw! :-)

Ivan

[FlipsidE]

I don't mind the cost of archery that much. I think I'd really enjoy it. My biggest problem is finding somewhere to do it as the closest club is a 40 minute drive away, and the closest public range that I know of is an hour drive away.

I live in a city with 60,000 residents and 250,000 people here on any given business day. You would think we'd have an archery range here, but we don't. Pistol ranges...yes. Archery ranges...not one that I know of, and nothing returned from a yellow pages search.

FlipsidE

[aikidoforever]

I've been doing archery for several years. The first two shots are recurve archery, i.e. the proper stuff. :)

I doubt that the photographer was actually with the camera in those shots, unless he was very brave or it was a very long lens and he was well off to the side (probably the later).

Either way, this could be acheived by simply holding the shutter down for a burst of shots be it with the finger or with a remote release.

If you watch archers who do recurve they pull the string and arrow back to their chin, there is a slight pause as they get their sight picture and then they pull a little more and release at the same time, i.e. the draw should be an almost continous movement where the arrow is still going backwards at the point of release.

Anybody who has watched top of the line archers for a while could easily estimate the point of release within a few tenths of a second.

Therefore, I guess the first two shots are a combination of burst mode and knowing when the release is about to happen.

More interesting for me is the actual arrow, you can clearly see the twist that has been inparted by the bow and you can see the bend in the arrow as well, both of which will stablise down range into an arrow that is flying very straight and spinning very fast, i.e. what you want.

Cheers

Ian

I missed this one... well said Ian. :-)

Ivan

[ILoutdoorcpl]

There are several videos floating around where the archer (a pro) had a camera mounted on his bow. Someone stated that if the release was a total surprise that it would be impossible to hit the X but if you'll watch and talk to a pro archer they will tell you that when their pin (or dot or scope) is circling the X ring that they start to tighten the release. No shooter in any sport can hold completely still, we all know that. The pros are better able to control their sight float and even though its still moving its moving within the range of the bullseye. If you'll do some looking you'll see that most pro and semi-pro archers use a release made by Carter. The releases have a way to adjust the tension but they are still fired by a slow and steady tightening of the back and shoulder muscles. Some of these releases also have a type of safety built into them so that if the shooter jerks or tries to jerk the shot the release will not fire. I'll admit that after a while with a certain release the shooter can anticipate when the release will fire, thats why the pros carry more than one release and the other is set or different tension. That way when they grabe the release for the shot they have no way of knowing when the shot will go off.

[iwatkins]

At the top competitve level (I'm only at the very bottom of that level), I understand from my coach (who is world class), that the release is an unconscious event. The shot setup itself from stringing the arrow itself all the way through the shot to the follow through should almost be completely unconscious as well.

He likens it to driving a car. You steer, change gear, brake etc. all pretty much without thinking about it once you are experinced, i.e. your brain does it for you while your conscious side thinks about things like checking the mirrors, checking for obsctructions, thinking about what a crap day you had a work etc.

At the highest level of archery competition, the archer should have almost no thought at all apart from aiming and only then "with mild interest". He did say that some Asian shooters can get up into a fully Zen like state where no outside influence affects them as all, but this is rare.

---

Of course, on the modern recurve bow you will often see/hear what is called a clicker. This is a simple spring metal strip that the arrow is pulled back under. For those archers that "shoot on the clicker" (as it is called), will release the instant the arrow is pulled back through the clicker allowing it to drop on to the bow with a "CLICK". The clicker helps with timing and more importantly, the draw length as power from the string is directly related to how far back the string is pulled.

Looking at those first two photos, both are using clickers so it is a safe bet the shot is coming as soon as you see/hear the clicker. Maybe starting a short burst here would get one good shot out of three or four attempts.

----

As an aside, in Olympic recurve archery (i.e. proper archery, not compund bow stuff), no release aids are allowed, i.e. the string has to be released from the fingers. However, a finger covering in the form of a leather (or synthetic) pad is allowed.

Cheers

Ian

[aikidoforever]

There are several videos floating around where the archer (a pro) had a camera mounted on his bow. Someone stated that if the release was a total surprise that it would be impossible to hit the X but if you'll watch and talk to a pro archer they will tell you that when their pin (or dot or scope) is circling the X ring that they start to tighten the release. No shooter in any sport can hold completely still, we all know that. The pros are better able to control their sight float and even though its still moving its moving within the range of the bullseye. If you'll do some looking you'll see that most pro and semi-pro archers use a release made by Carter. The releases have a way to adjust the tension but they are still fired by a slow and steady tightening of the back and shoulder muscles. Some of these releases also have a type of safety built into them so that if the shooter jerks or tries to jerk the shot the release will not fire. I'll admit that after a while with a certain release the shooter can anticipate when the release will fire, thats why the pros carry more than one release and the other is set or different tension. That way when they grabe the release for the shot they have no way of knowing when the shot will go off.

How much time passes from the moment the release starts to the moment the string is let go?

[aikidoforever]

And, would this time be consistent, using the same release?

[Tom W]

So the time between the start of release to the time of actual release is how long? Typically? Whatever it is, is it consistent? Pistols and rifles do in fact have a time lag as well, albeit a short one, between the time the trigger is pulled and the firing pin hits the primer. However, it's not unexpected as it is always consistent. If in fact in archery the time is inconsistent, then perhaps you could say it's unexpected however I certainly would say the archer is surprized. I will ask you the same question I asked before. If the shot is in fact unexpected, how do the pros get consistent groupings?

And yes, in pistol and rifle shooting, forcing the trigger does also jerk the barrel in the direction of your palm, thus affecting the path of the bullet.



Yeehaw! :-)

Ivan

After reading your post, I guess I'd better be a little more descriptive as I think we're saying similar things but with a considerably different approach.

Here's my trigger release technique for rifle matches (and I do need to get back to one some day - its been a couple of years):

Assuming that you've got your sling set up right and you're already in the shooting position, be it standing, sitting, or prone (or whatever else a given match might require). Anyway, if your sling and position are correct, the target black area should be about the same width as your front site post, and sitting almost perfectly on top of it. Granted, it will waver a bit, but that's generally the sight picture you want.

My technique with the trigger combines the proper breathing to get steady combined with a gentle, gradual increase in trigger pressure. If I waiver off target, I stop increasing pressure, maybe take a deep breath or two and re-steady myself. When I'm back on, I continue the gradual increase. At some point, and I don't know when (unless the trigger is sloppy), the gun will fire. The one thing I do control is when to stop increasing trigger pressure (I don't ever let off unless the rangemaster announces a "cease fire" or I see something out of the ordinary or unsafe.

I can't say my shots are all X'es, but they're all in the black, with a good percentage of 10's and X's. I have NRA marksman rating and tend to shoot within the top 20% at the matches I've attended. At 200, 300, or 600 (I shot that once) yards with a target sized to show a black circle laying on top of your front site, there is no way to even make out the X ring. You just know that its in the middle.

[IanBMW]

Hey flip, when I was a kid we moved to a rental house once before moving to another city and I found in the attic a compound bow with broad heads on the arrows, you know the razor looking ones. Well I shot one of those babies at my fence and it ripped thru the crack like nothin. So word of the wise, be careful ;)

[aikidoforever]

After reading your post, I guess I'd better be a little more descriptive as I think we're saying similar things but with a considerably different approach.

Here's my trigger release technique for rifle matches (and I do need to get back to one some day - its been a couple of years):

Assuming that you've got your sling set up right and you're already in the shooting position, be it standing, sitting, or prone (or whatever else a given match might require). Anyway, if your sling and position are correct, the target black area should be about the same width as your front site post, and sitting almost perfectly on top of it. Granted, it will waver a bit, but that's generally the sight picture you want.

My technique with the trigger combines the proper breathing to get steady combined with a gentle, gradual increase in trigger pressure. If I waiver off target, I stop increasing pressure, maybe take a deep breath or two and re-steady myself. When I'm back on, I continue the gradual increase. At some point, and I don't know when (unless the trigger is sloppy), the gun will fire. The one thing I do control is when to stop increasing trigger pressure (I don't ever let off unless the rangemaster announces a "cease fire" or I see something out of the ordinary or unsafe.

I can't say my shots are all X'es, but they're all in the black, with a good percentage of 10's and X's. I have NRA marksman rating and tend to shoot within the top 20% at the matches I've attended. At 200, 300, or 600 (I shot that once) yards with a target sized to show a black circle laying on top of your front site, there is no way to even make out the X ring. You just know that its in the middle.

Yeah Tom, I was re-reading all as well and you're right. We are pretty much saying the same thing. I do pretty much the same as you described for rifle shooting. But bullseye pistol is a little different because no one can keep the front sight from wavering. Cause you're standing and holding the pistol with one hand. Actually, if you've ever tried bullseye pistol you will know this, the front sight moves in a somewhat oval loop. Or, at least mine does, but I do believe reading a few articles from top bullseye pistol shooters and they stated the same thing. For Bullseye pistol shooting, to get the X or anything in the 10, you need to anticipate when the front sight will "circle" over the X. As you described for rifle, you increase the the pressure until it let's go, but I know exactly how far I need to pull the trigger before it lets go. (all my firearms are different but that's why we practice... to learn each trigger behavior.) With rimfire bullseye pistol matches, the moment the shot is fired I know pretty much where my shot has landed without looking into the spotting scope.

But If you recall, the original question was what is the best way to increase your chances to take a picture of an arrow in flight. My suggestion was to get in sink with the archer and follow their tempo. I'm pretty sure they do the exact same thing as bullsey pistol shooters do, which is: The time it takes for them to raise the bow on target, acquire the target and release is consistent. Mine for bullseye pistol is about 3 seconds. It's always 3 seconds. So, if I were shooting a bow and taking the same amount of time as I do with pistol, a photographer could very easily figure out when my shot goes off. Simply get a burst going 3 seconds after the bow is raised and hope for the best. I'm sure if you do that a few hundred times in a day you will have some of arrows in flight.

Cheerios! :-)

Ivan

[aikidoforever]

Get in sync. Not get in sink like kitchen sink... :-)

Ivan

[Tom W]

But If you recall, the original question was what is the best way to increase your chances to take a picture of an arrow in flight. My suggestion was to get in sink with the archer and follow their tempo. I'm pretty sure they do the exact same thing as bullsey pistol shooters do, which is: The time it takes for them to raise the bow on target, acquire the target and release is consistent. Mine for bullseye pistol is about 3 seconds. It's always 3 seconds. So, if I were shooting a bow and taking the same amount of time as I do with pistol, a photographer could very easily figure out when my shot goes off. Simply get a burst going 3 seconds after the bow is raised and hope for the best. I'm sure if you do that a few hundred times in a day you will have some of arrows in flight.

Cheerios! :-)

Ivan

Photography? Who would have thought that photography would be discussed here? :)

I know how I'd approach this kind of shot - spray - and - pray. Full auto & let EVU sort them out! Really, I'd use burst mode, and carry a lot of CF cards.

[aikidoforever]

You might also want to ask the archer to shoot a little slower and perhaps use the extra long arrows... ;-)

[GenEOS]

Timing, Timing, Timing. Even at 8fs it isn't going to help. I bet these are a couple of hundreds of frames trying to get the exact moment he wanted. After a while of watching a shooter, you will get into a rythem with them and be able to get it.

I would suggest long glass. 400 or 600mm at a safe distance and at the approval of officials or range safety officer (if there is such a person in archery). These may have been shot remotely or from a arrow proof enclose.

Safety should be first....never risk injury for a shot. I would hate to see someone post a picture of an arrow stuck through the front element of a 400mm f2.8, that would be sad.

[ILoutdoorcpl]

Well if it weren't 3 degrees right now I'd like to grab the camera and a shooting buddy and see what I can come up with. If any of you get the chance try to watch that Easton video, it'll almost scare you out of shooting your bow when you see what happens upon release.
To those of you who said you are pistol and rifle shooters, the next time you're in Illinois the range where they used to have the Masters is only about 40 miles away and its a great complex. Good luck on the photos and I'd love to see the results

[deezeljuice]

How to get that shot? 5 or 8 frames per second till your buffer is full. :confused:

I know in shooting, the shot should be a surprise for the shooter himself... let alone some guy taking pics of him...

Same in archery... you're gradually releasing it till it just slips. If you let go at some particular moment, the whole bow is gonna shift and the arrow won't hit the target.

Cheers

Absolutely not true. An archery release is an 'instantaneous' movement. Kind of like a reflex. The fingers straighten out instantly. If an archer gradually releases, then he would slowly straighten his/her fingers causing the string to roll off the fingers. That would cause the arrow not to hit the target. I'm not an expert photographer, but I am an expert archer.

[DocFrankenstein]

Absolutely not true. An archery release is an 'instantaneous' movement. Kind of like a reflex. The fingers straighten out instantly. So, what you're saying is that you can straighten your fingers instantly and won't shift your bow+arrow off target? :confused:

[Ballen Photo]

How far does one of those arrows travel in half a second? Half a second seems like a long time, really.If memory serves, they travel at two to three hundred feet per second, so dont plan on just stepping aside at the last second to avoid getting hit. :shock:
-Bruce

[dr.bear]

Arrow speed at release can range in the 200-300+ fps. So lets say an average build person can shoot an arrow with an initial speed of 280 fps. So in 0.5 seconds the arrow will have traveled 140 feet. This means that even if you shoot in burst mode there's a good chance you'll miss that "arrow flying off bow" shot. So you might have to burst shoot several times to get the shot.

As far as timing when an archer will release the arrow, well, if you watch a "good" archer shoot the same shot over and over again, you can sort of time when he/she will release. But, I don't think the archer himself knows exactly (to the milliseconds) when the arrow will release when using a release aid. Yes, an archer has a pattern of standing, lifting the bow, pulling back the string/nock, sighting in and putting back tension for the release aid to trigger. But, you're not suppose to directly or consciously press the release aid's trigger. It's a combination of concentrated aiming at the target and continuous back tension that causes your finger/hand to trigger the release aid automatically. So even if you can time an archer to +/- 0.5 to 1.0 seconds of when he'll release the arrow, it's hard to guarantee you'll get that perfect shot.

I hope this didn't confuse anyone.

[scott stokes]

I have shot comp. for years(open class).I don't use a back tention release anymore because of bad back.if you watch some one fore a few shots you can see when there bow stops moving and they will relaxe and take the shot almost instanly.I have my release set sowhen any presure is applied it releases.my brother and i have done alot of video's of this and you can cut out this shot from tape,these were pro video cameras my brother makes hunting videos, and has a show on outdoor chanel.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I used to shoot a little archery,.. For trargets I shot au~naturale (a recurve.. about 45lb draw.. it is even wood. (yes I still have it, it hangs on the wal as it is a beauty to behold,.. I of course got it at a flee market when I was 14)

I even hunted a little.. with a compound, (still have that too,. but really don't know why,. it is a big ugly beast, a little like some of the things in the photos above,.. but it is brown since it is a hunting bow.. no gawdy colors)

I have to say I never got to the point of competition .. not even close.. and as I mentioned never used a relaes so I was clearly not even in the same game.. let alone league.. but I do not recall being "surprised" by release.. (using fingers.. no mechanical release) nor do I like to surprise myself when firing a firearm. But that may just make me a ham fisted hack ;)

Anyway.. I'm sure it would be tricky to get the right photo... but I don't think spray and pray is the answer.

[CyberDyneSystems]

I understand from my coach ... that the release is an unconscious event. The shot setup itself from stringing the arrow itself all the way through the shot to the follow through should almost be completely unconscious

O-kay.. put like that,. I see what you mean.. and understand that this is what one would strive for.. and only the best achieve.

I had a "Zenlike" archery moment ONCE in my life that worked out this way.. by accident as such a thing can only be.

It was of course the single best shot of my life.. a Rabbit on the run.. from about 15 meters. It was dinner that night. Of course,. unlike targets,. there was no time to think about the action.. or to "aim".. it just happened.

I could never recreate such a thing...

Frankly my guess.. getting a photo of a release might be a little like that ;)

Nahhhh.. it's not so tough!
http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=yfntio&outx=700&oq=0&original=1&noresize=1&nostamp=1

Same thing ,.. right? :lol: :lol: :lol: :o :p

[aikidoforever]

Great photo! Nice action shot! We are looking at the next Tiger Woods of the Dart world!!!

Ivan

[boomer1959]

I find it odd that you would say that the shot is a total surprize to the shooter. But then again I'm not an archer. However, I would believe that there isn't a real difference between pistol and archery. When you raise your pistol and focus the front sight on the target, you will start to circle the target. Usually it will take a second or so for that circling to tighten up. But when you anticipate your front sight finally crossing over the 10X your trigger is already squeezed and the shot is fired. If I didn't know precisely when my shot would break, like a surprize, how would I ever plant one in the bull? I can't imagine archery being any different. No one can hold a sight dead on the bull and wait for that unexpected shot to break.

Back to photography, it's definetly possible to capture, look at the first post.

Cheerios!

Ivan

I have done archery since about 1990 and always found that my best shots were when I didn,t even relize the arrow had left the bow. You concentrate on the shot so much. You condition your mind and body to the point that it becomes instictive. I love archery. It's a great sport.

[boomer1959]

How far does one of those arrows travel in half a second? Half a second seems like a long time, really.


My arrows fly at 300 ft. per sec. and if you shoot into the air (which you shouldn't) the arrow will disappear from sight.

[boomer1959]

So, what you're saying is that you can straighten your fingers instantly and won't shift your bow+arrow off target? :confused:


When shooting with fingers you basicly relax the muscles in your fingers and the bow string pulls out of them. Imagine holding a glass of water then relaxing your finger muscles. The glass would drop. Same idea.

[deezeljuice]

When shooting with fingers you basicly relax the muscles in your fingers and the bow string pulls out of them. Imagine holding a glass of water then relaxing your finger muscles. The glass would drop. Same idea.

That's a good way of putting it. The string sits as far out on the fingertips as possible. When you relax the fingers, the tension of the string pulls very hard off the fingertips, making the process virtually instantaneous. It would be next to impossible to see it coming and react with a push of the shutter in time.

[FlipsidE]

So, what have we come to as a general consensus here? Firearm people say that there is a rhythm to the shot. Archery people say it's a complete surprise. So, for archery, is it just simply "Spray and Pray?"

FlipsidE

[DocFrankenstein]

When shooting with fingers you basicly relax the muscles in your fingers and the bow string pulls out of them. Imagine holding a glass of water then relaxing your finger muscles. The glass would drop. Same idea. I know... that's what I was saying...

IMO, the only thing the photog needs to know is they repeat the same thing with the same rhythm.

So, usually experienced firearm shooters have a certain time from the minute they draw it, till the moment of release...

Cheers

[pcasciola]

So, what have we come to as a general consensus here? Firearm people say that there is a rhythm to the shot. Archery people say it's a complete surprise. So, for archery, is it just simply "Spray and Pray?"
Depends on the style of shooting. I use a mechanical thumb release, so for me it's a surprise. 300fps is pretty fast, though, and I think only high performane compound bows can achieve that speed, and probably not the recurves. My Oneida can shoot that fast with carbon arrows and lightweight tips, and only when I have the draw set to about 75-80lbs but that becomes pretty hard to hold even with the let off.

At 200fps, and 8fps from a 1DMkII, theoretically the arrow would only be moving about 25 feet between each shot, so from the angle the first couple of shots you posted were taken, I'd expect one of every 4 or 5 archer's shots would have the arrow in frame if you just shot continuous when you expected the archer to release.

Oh, yeah, and recurves are really heavy to hold because there is no let off, so I wouldn't expect there to be much time between the time the archer draw back until the release compared to a compound bow where you can hold it drawn back for a while.

[HJMinard]

Oh, yeah, and recurves are really heavy to hold because there is no let off, so I wouldn't expect there to be much time between the time the archer draw back until the release compared to a compound bow where you can hold it drawn back for a while.

Very true ... with longbows and recurves most shooters release almost instantly when their draw reaches their "anchor point". There is definitely a rhythm to shooting with traditional equipment. On the other hand - with my compound bow and mechanical release I find myself using similar techniques to those I utilize in rifle marksmanship (a slow squeeze timed to break as the aiming pin passes over the desired spot ... yet not knowing exactly when the actual break will occur ... if that makes sense).

[PacAce]

Man, there sure are a lot of archers (and ex-archers) around here, aren't there? :D Hmm, wonder what other interests a lot of us here have in common? :confused:

[iwatkins]

Man, there sure are a lot of archers (and ex-archers) around here, aren't there? :D Hmm, wonder what other interests a lot of us here have in common? :confused:

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm quite partial to some photography from time to time. :)

Ian

[PacAce]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm quite partial to some photography from time to time. :)

Ian

Hey, what a coincidence, Ian. I am, too! Bet we'll find one or two more if we look hard enough. :lol: :wink:

[Jack W.]

Interesting thread here.
I also have a couple of bows hanging on the wall. One is a Shakespear Ocala recurve that I bought about 35 years ago, which may now be a collector's item. The other is a Browning compound, circa 1984. Had a lot of fun with both of them. I haven't shot in a LONG time, but after seeing the pics of the beautiful archers posted here, I might just.............
Nahhhhhhhh........I'm old enough to be their father........heh heh

[PacAce]

Maybe someone can start a new thread to show off the bow(s), arrows, etc.. :mrgreen:

[pcasciola]

Maybe someone can start a new thread to show off the bow(s), arrows, etc.. :mrgreen: Why not right here?

Here's my overly complex compound bow. Kind of a like compound bow and recurve combined.

http://www.casciola.com/pics/bow.jpg

[AzzKicker]

Whats all the crap hanging out of the BOW!!!

What happened to having real SKILL and using a plain jane Bow and actually knowing your bow and how it handles.

[C.S.I.]

Hmmmmm.....

Maybe Ill take up archery as a second hobby ... (Ill tell the wife Ive gone shooting ;) )

[pcasciola]

What happened to having real SKILL and using a plain jane Bow and actually knowing your bow and how it handles. The same thing that happened to film cameras......

[Ballen Photo]

Why not right here?

Here's my overly complex compound bow. Kind of a like compound bow and recurve combined.

OMG!!! Is that a scope mounted on that bow? I have NEVER seen that type of sight on a bow before. The last time I shot a bow & arrow, it was a simple recurve, and the tip of the arrow was my front sight. I just had to make sure my hold and draw were consistant. I did OK with it. :rolleyes:
-Bruce

[pcasciola]

Yeah, it's a red dot (aimpoint) sight. I've had old man eyes since I was about 24 probably from working on computers so much since I was a kid, and that is the only device that will allow me to focus on the sight and the target at the same time. The traditional pin sights are way too blurry at arms length for me to use, and with my glasses the target is too blurry. I can only shoot rifles and pistols with aimpoint sights as well.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Whats all the crap hanging out of the BOW!!!

What happened to having real SKILL and using a plain jane Bow and actually knowing your bow and how it handles.

It's really the same difference as you see in any application that has a scaled level of increasing complexity...

Look at one of these super adjustable Anschutz target rifles... at several thousand dollars firing a tiny .22 vs. a $140.00 marlin .22

Totlaly different users abd applications.. and yet both do pretty much the same...

Phils comment about Cameras is the same as well,.. even closer to home.

Consider the bow above a 1D Vs. the your old pentax manual 35mm... or even a Kodak brownie.

Just because someon chooses to shoot a 1D does mean that they lack skill.... nor does the 1D mean you have to have any less skill...

[Ballen Photo]

Yeah, it's a red dot (aimpoint) sight. I've had old man eyes since I was about 24 probably from working on computers so much since I was a kid, and that is the only device that will allow me to focus on the sight and the target at the same time. The traditional pin sights are way too blurry at arms length for me to use, and with my glasses the target is too blurry. I can only shoot rifles and pistols with aimpoint sights as well.Ahh, Now I can relate. Kinda like trying to watch TV and read at the same time, while wearing a pair of reading glasses? I'm glad it works for you.:D
By the way, This article has rekindled a desire to take up archery once more. :rolleyes:
-Bruce

[Mogwyth]

Why not right here?

Here's my overly complex compound bow. Kind of a like compound bow and recurve combined.


Far too complex for me I think I stick with my yew long bow. Actualy I have two that I made myself one a comfortable 60lb pull, the other an impossible (well for me) 155lb pull, this one is a reconstruction of the type used at Agincourt (1400s) when the typical bow was 110-180lb and they were sending of 10 arrows a minute, they must have had arms like tree trunks.

[pcasciola]

WOW!! 155lb pull on a long bow?!?! I could never draw something like that, and I'm not a small guy. Those guys at Agincourt must have all been built like Arnold Schwarzenegger. I typically have my Oneida set to around 80lbs, and some of my friends can't even draw it back past the let off point. Plus, this design allows for a true 80% let off, so once you pass that point you are really only holding about 15-20lbs.

[Mogwyth]

If you think thats something there's a guy here in the UK Mark stretton who has drawn a 200lb plus war bow apparently a world record. who regularly uses a 160lb bow in competition.

http://www.mgel.com/medieval/participants-info/re-enactors/archery/Tournament-winner.html





(Http://www.mgel.com/medieval/participants-info/re-enactors/archery/Tournamant-winner.html)

[DocFrankenstein]

Those things go through kevlar with the right tip :D

[HJMinard]

Maybe someone can start a new thread to show off the bow(s), arrows, etc.. :mrgreen:

I don't have any shots available of just my bow ... but here's one of me shooting it about three years ago ...

http://www.pbase.com/hjminard/image/38732767.jpg

[imrtun]

Sorry to digg this thread up but I couldn't resist.

Here's what I shoot. http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2294/qb54b32d8cadjl3.th.jpg (http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qb54b32d8cadjl3.jpg)

[canonphotog]

How much time passes from the moment the release starts to the moment the string is let go?


Depends on how sensitive you adjust your release.

My compound bow is capable of 305 fps with an 80 pound draw weight. Even turned down to 72 pounds it pushes over 280 fps. Once I center on target, I slowly apply pressure to the release trigger. Enough pressure and the release lets go. It only has to open about one tenth of an inch to release the string. At 30 yards/90 feet, My ACC's reach the target in a little less than three tenths of a second.

From that I'd put the time from start of release to release around 2 to 3 thousandths of a second.

[BradT0517]

Who all agrees with banning imrtun for reviving this thread.;) :lol:

[hmv]

WOW!! 155lb pull on a long bow?!?! I could never draw something like that, and I'm not a small guy. Those guys at Agincourt must have all been built like Arnold Schwarzenegger. I typically have my Oneida set to around 80lbs, and some of my friends can't even draw it back past the let off point. Plus, this design allows for a true 80% let off, so once you pass that point you are really only holding about 15-20lbs.

Well the guys at Agincourt weren't doing it as a hobby or sport ... a large number of French knights charging down on you would probably give enough of an adrenaline rush that you could pull a bit more than usual. Besides they were also pulling increasingly heavy bows since childhood.