Canon Sales Loyalty?

[Brian B]

This afternoon a young graphic artist was in Ritz Camera comparing the Digital Rebel to the PowerShot Pro 1. He finally decided to take the Rebel. But before his credit card hit the counter, the salesman talked him out of his choice in favor of the Nikon D70. The salesman described the D70 using terms like “a camera made of metal…a real camera material instead of plastic” and “has the advantage of a 1.5 crop factor versus a 1.6.” His list of well memorized D70 superlatives had the photography novice convinced.

First, I thought the D70 was plastic. Anyway, I have noticed similar instances in Ritz on a couple of occasions. Does the Ritz sales staff get perks from Nikon? Are they commissioned and Nikon has better margins? What’s up?

-Brian B

[kawter2]

i think the d70 is t bit of a step up from the 300d.

I'm a Canon loyalist, but I don't think the comparasant is equal. I'm sure the next step she would have offered him the 20d vs the d100

[DaveG]

This afternoon a young graphic artist was in Ritz Camera comparing the Digital Rebel to the PowerShot Pro 1. He finally decided to take the Rebel. But before his credit card hit the counter, the salesman talked him out of his choice in favor of the Nikon D70. The salesman described the D70 using terms like “a camera made of metal…a real camera material instead of plastic” and “has the advantage of a 1.5 crop factor versus a 1.6.” His list of well memorized D70 superlatives had the photography novice convinced.

First, I thought the D70 was plastic. Anyway, I have noticed similar instances in Ritz on a couple of occasions. Does the Ritz sales staff get perks from Nikon? Are they commissioned and Nikon has better margins? What’s up?

-Brian B


I think that the D70 is a lot better camera than the Drebel too. Whether the rest of the Nikon system bears up under any kind of scutiny remains to be seen. perhaps it is a Ritz conspiricy and the store/salespeople make more money from th enikon. But it just might be a personal view of the sales person.

Just after I was married my wife and I went in to a local photography store so she could look at wedding albums. While she was doing that I was looking at this and that and saw a spot meter attachment for a Minolta incident meter. I wanted to see it and asked the clerk to take it out of the display case, explaining that I had the Minolta meter. Well he spent the next ten minutes telling me that this was a 5 degree (or possibly 10 degree, I forget) spot meter, and that REAL spot meters had to be one degree and that anyone who settled for this attachment was a moron, etc and so on.

Now with the right tone and quiet talk I could see that he could have been helping me. But he was just trying to show his superiority. If I was his boss and heard this I would have fired him on the spot.

Years later I ran into him at a party and a friend introduced us. I remembered him but he had no idea who I was. My friend told him that I was into large format photography and we started talking. He asked me what type of film I used and he told me that it was terrible. He asked what lenses I had and he told me that they were no good. He asked me whether I was shooting recently and I told him that I hadn't because of nasty cold weather. He said that a real photographer would shoot regardless. So I then told him that he was very stupid if he would use a large format camera in such windy conditions, that Agfa APX100 film was just fine, and that Schneider lenses were as good as any made. I think that he was surprised to be dismissed in such a fashion.

This guy just had to be top dog and perhaps that sales guy of yours just had to inflict his will on the customer.

[Tom W]

More than likely, the store made more money on the D-70 than on the Rebel.

[Cash--]

Just hazzarding a guess, but the nikon costs more......its the natural instinct of a salesman to upsell.

Personally, I hate talking to Pushy salesmen in stores, i just want them to awnser my question's and then leave the decision making to me.

[Tom W]

Just hazzarding a guess, but the nikon costs more......its the natural instinct of a salesman to upsell.

Personally, I hate talking to Pushy salesmen in stores, i just want them to awnser my question's and then leave the decision making to me.

Same here - that's why I tend to shop internet.

[charlesu]

It's hard to say what happened but the D70 is prob better than the Drebel.

I love to watch a local store operate on people. They've always had a bad relationship with Canon. It comes from YEARS of favoring Nikon. Nikon has always been their bag. Well, for the last 18-24 months they have had a very hard time with Nikon. Delays, no support, accessories not available, etc. The list is long. Add to it that Nikon has lagged Canon in R&D, getting products to market, pricepoints, etc. So, what do they sell now?

No matter whether someone comes in for a D70 or a 20D or a DRebel, they push the Olympus E1. They claim that basically Nikon and Canon have both missed the boat. That to get a really decent camera in either of the other brands you have to spend $5000. That Olympus got it right the first time and is (somehow) able to sell a pro camera for only $1299. Etc. They claim that the E1 out performs the others in most if not all ways and that picture quality is better than all but the most recent (20D).

They sell a ton of them. Frankly, I tested a couple of E1's on an extensive basis. My D60 was at least as good in terms of making a good print. Probably better under challenging conditions (high iso). I like the idea of the E1 as a small, carry camera. Not a pro camera. And, I have to say that before I'd do that it has to get a LOT better in terms of image quality. <sigh>

I do like their little sensor cleaning deal. I'm off to clean my 1D MKii shortly.

[sparker1]

I think the Nikon reputation/price cause many salespeople to push them. My brother was in the market for a new film camera and went to Ritz (not I, thank you). He asked about a certain Canon, but the salesman convinced him to get the N70. Turned out, they didn't have the new model Canon he was interested in.

[21farms]

how interesting...i was in my local ritz awhile ago and the salesman was dissing canon and really pushing nikon too. i figured, 'whatever.' fwiw, i'd prefer the D70 over the dreb too but the points the saleman made are hilarious! the D70 is indeed plastic-bodied and 1.5x vs. 1.6x crop factor??!

[RJSorensen]

My local Ritz is geared toward Nikon as well. They have a big vendor day at the Park City ski resort in the early fall. Bring in all the gear and let the guys and gals whom sell . . . take and shoot what they want. Put them up over night and such. I don't think Cannon supports the sales force in this same way, at least in my neck of the woods.

There are a lot more Nikon lens and such too. Just basic Canon gear. They still have a 2.8 28-70L on the shelf, no one knows it has been replaced by the 24-70L.

[MrChad]

A buddy of mine's brother sell junk at BestBuy and he gets huge incentives to sell D70's vs. Drebels....I figure it's the same all around.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Ritz is DEFINATELY pushing Nikons.. has been for as long as I've known.

My local ritz has Canon DSLRs now for the first time.. they never had a single 10D, D60, D30, or 1D the first Canon DSL they ever stocked wa the Rebel.. and now they actually stock the 20D.

On the other hand,. they have allways stocked D100, D70, and.. beleive it or not... those 14MP Kodak monstrosisties...

If you walk into that store an describe a "G" digicam perfectly as "what you are looking for" they will hand you a Nikon...

When I worked for a short time as a Manager in a tool store chain.. there were certain brands of tools that had reps that would offer what we called "spiffs"

..A spiff is an incentive.. a commision,.. a dollar amount,. or "bounty" that the slaesman makes for every one of a specific brand they sold.

So we might Carry Bostich, Hitachi, Duo-fast etc.. Nail guns.. and presumably give all of them equal "air time" with our customers.. but if the "Senco" rep was offering the salesman a $20.00 "spiff" for every Senco stick nailer we sold.. the tendancy obviously was to push the Senco over the Duo-fast and Bostich. (for me this was actually easy to do as I am fully convinced Senco is best! :mrgreeen:)
Anyway.. I'm sure based on what I have seen at Ritz there is some incentive for the salesman to push Nikon.

In RI... Senco offered the Spiff because Bostich is local.. and most buy that brand...

In this case,. Canon is outselling Nikon in general.. so Canon would have no reason to offer a spiff...

It's only the underdog that has to do it usually.

[Medic1]

I have a drebel and my best friend, who I take photo trips with has the D70.....I have not noticed a whole lot of difference in image quality. It is hard to tell though....the D70 only goes down to ISO 200 whereas the Drebel goes to ISO 100....the D70 definetly feels "weightier" than the Drebel but I have been impressed by Canon's associated equipment more than Nikons (lenses etc.).

It is hard to tell really....I definetly feel that the Drebel is less than what I want.....would upgrade to the 20D right now if it were not for the money involved in it. But I will definetly move to a higher level Canon. There is just something to be said for a company that gets the "word of mouth" endorsement for its equipment from almost every photographer I have talked to. Since I am planning on going to a higher level Canon, the Drebel gets my vote because I can build a lens collection to suit my future needs.

Who knows....its all who you talk to right? Some people love their Rebel, some people love thier D70. Its brand loyalty just like the auto market.

[Alexia]

I don't even know brand loyalty yet. 300D because it is in my price range and I know the extensive line of Canon lenses will work with it. I guess that would technically be brand loyalty.

Now if a 70-200mm f/2.8 appeared magically in front of me I would be in heaven. :D

[colliewalker1]

[QUOTE=kawter2]i think the d70 is t bit of a step up from the 300d.

It seems from reviews that technically the D70 has an edge over the DRebel/300D but I wonder if that matters much to most owners of the latter camera - like me! If both were similarly priced then I expect most buyers would go for the D70: however, the price difference is fairly significant and Nikon lenses are also dearer.

I would think that for most users the DRebel has adequate features - and probably more than many will ever use. At the end of the day its the quality of the photos produced that matter: a direct comparison is difficult here especially as the D70 doesn't come with a kit lens: however if one were to be presented with a collection of photos of the same subject, taken at the same time with both cameras - and - using lenses of comparible quality, it seems doubtful to me that anyone could say which were taken with one or other of these cameras.

I am (fortunately!) not itching to 'upgrade' my camera (which I only bought a month or two ago anyway!) - I enjoy using the 300D (Hacked!) and I am very happy with the 18-55mm lens, :lol: whicxh is amazing for a 'kit issue' Any 'upgrading' by me would be in the 'lens' department: my first choice would be a wider angle lens to give the equivalent of 24mm in 35mm terms; unfortunately the '1.6x factor'makes this very expensive as we are talkng of a 15mm lens - if anyone has affordable suggestions here I would be interested to hear them!

The DRebel had outstanding reviews when launched -is anybody dissatisfied with their's?

[CyberDyneSystems]

Image wise I'd say they are too close to argue over.. but of course I am partial to Canon's CMOS solutions. So I think the Rebel "looks" better.. again this is both opinion and so small a difference it's hardly worth discussing.

The D70 has faster timings and a few features the 300D lacks.. but it is also incrementally more expensive.. so it bloody well should! :)

Likewise the 20D has faster timings and more features than the D70.. and it too is incrementally more expensive... so it bloody well should! :)

[Brian B]

Based on some of your replies, the idea of Ritz pushing Nikon isn't my imagination.

Nikon's reputation began in 1959 with the F, a superbly designed modular SLR. The Nikon F was marketed and distributed in the U.S. by Joe Ehrenreich, who was brilliant at promoting the camera. This combination made the F the professional photographer’s standard for more than a decade. It also made the Nikon name synonymous with high quality SLRs. Without Joe Ehrenreich, Nikon would certainly still have succeeded but probably not to the same degree. Nikon’s reputation as the leader would remain solid regardless of what the competition produced.

People purchase a name. There are many high quality Swiss watch companies but many people will purchase a Rolex without considering the other brands. The name recognition sells the product.

-Brian B

[IndyJeff]

I have only been into Ritz camera once in my life and then it was just a killing time type thing. A salesman approached me and asked if I needed any help. I said no I was just browsing. He asked what kind of camera I had now. When I said Canon he kind of scoffed and said if I wanted to join the real world of photography I should look into a Nikon. Well needless to say, that honked me off. I listened for a few minutes and then when he asked if I had any questions I said, "yeah just one. How many times have you been published world wide?" He kind of gave me the deer in the headlight look and said he had never been published world wide or locally. I just snickered and said something to the effect of, "I didn't think so." I then began heading for the door as I got near it a guy whom I think may have been the manager said thanks for visiting and please return soon. I stopped dead in my tracks and turned to him and said, "Come back here? What for to be insulted again by your sales people? I think I would rather give up photography first." With that I turned and walked out of their door and have never been back and that was back about 4 years ago.
I wouldn't buy anyting from Ritz Camera, anytime, under any circumstances, anywhere.

[Brian B]

Hi IndyJeff,

Canon succeeds even though stores like Ritz seem to have a biased sales staff. I have never made a major purchase at Ritz and never will. When I've had the opportunity to steer someone away from Ritz, I have done so. I often wonder if the “expert” behind the counter has ever taken the equipment he “knows so well” into the field for an afternoon of shooting. Sadly, the mom and pop camera stores that evolved from a love for the hobby/profession have become a thing of the past.

-Brian B

[Persian-Rice]

I am not really Canon loyal. If there is a better camera, I will buy it. However, I do own a bunch of expensive EF lenses, and unless I can get what I paid for them, I am not willing to take a big hit to the pocket to switch brands.

That being said, I really like how Nikon has a mid range body, better then the Canon prosumer stuff but not as good as its pro stuff.

I would still prefer to use an "F" over the EOS film bodies.

Canon is somewhat arrogant, knowing they own the market. But they are slipping in terms of service and inconsistent pricing.

[CyberDyneSystems]

That being said, I really like how Nikon has a mid range body, better then the Canon prosumer stuff but not as good as its pro stuff.
g.

Are you talking about film or digital?

In both cases I feel Canon has good choices in the "in between" market.. EOS3 and 20D ...

[Persian-Rice]

CDS, I meant digital. Canon has a pretty good lineup in terms of films.

I consider the D2H mid range, any D series Canon or D70/D100 Nikon Low end.

I don't know, I really like the D2H. It's smack dab in the middle of the 20D and 1DMKII. I don't know if you have ever played with one, but It performs real nice. I would consider it an equal to a 1D with some more advanced 1DMKII features.

If I had the money when I first got into digital photography, there would be a good chance I would have gone with the Nikon. But I would have regreted it if I knew I would buy a 1D in the future.

[primoz]

Personally I just love arguments like "you know it has metal body" ":) Does something like this really matter for Canon 300d/Nikon d70 user? If this would be important for someone, then it would be for me and rest of gang, running around sport field with 2 or 3 cameras around neck, when cameras are bumping up and down. And even if I'm usually gentle with my equipment it still can't compare with use of some hobby photographer. And guess what... my EOS 3 (with plastic body) is still working just as fine after quite lot of (ab)use as my 1v and 1d. :) But I guess from sales point of view this plastic vs. metal is good argument for most of people.
But in this particular case I would say d70 has edge over 300d (at least from reading few reviews).

[scottbergerphoto]

I along with many others with alot of money invested in Nikon Glass and Bodies, switched to Canon for Digital. Nikon builds tanks that focus blazingly fast. The problem is they can't reproduce color accurately.
Regards,
Scott

[trbo187]

I am a sales supervisor of the camera/wireless department in Montana for the world's largest electronics retailer. We do not recieve any incentives to sell either brand. The Rebel and the D70 are similar in terms of their margin for the company. Nikon does give us an employee pricing accomodation while Canon does not. This does not lead to Nikon brand loyalty, however, as the only DSLR's anyone on my team owns are Rebels.

In my estimation Canon is ahead of Nikon in terms of digital technology and have had a number of Nikon photogs in my area switch to Canon with the advent of the 20D. For most of our customers the choice between the Rebel and D70 comes down to price and whether or not one owns lenses or equipment from either manufacturer. Any good, honest salesman explores what a customer needs regardless of his/her own prejudices.

[DocFrankenstein]

good, honest salesman Where can you find them in the capitalist world?

I have no loyalty for any brand/store whatsoever. I am "locked" into canon though, because I have the lenses and gotten used to the interface.

To be honest... Canon glass is overpriced... 50/1.4 is not worth 300 bucks. USM motor does not cost more than 5-10 bucks to produce. Putting 3-4 more blades on 50/1.8 won't kill them either. As well as damping the focus rings. How hard can it be to put some paint on the distance scale to show DOF at f/4 and f/8? But no... it's F/11 and F/22 only. No split circle screens for anything but 5000$ bodies... etc etc etc

Canon does everything possible to part me with my money. And damn sigma and tamron can't do anything about it.

I've gotten carried away. It's a love/hate relationship as you see.

I'm off. Got a rat to cut up. I'll post some pictures later :D

[donlavange]

Same here - that's why I tend to shop internet.

I do too, however I really want to buy locally and I will pay maybe 10% more for local. I just don't understand why there are so many unfriendly camera shop folks around.

Just the other day, I was in a large mid America store (road trip) where I had already spent $$$. I asked about the Sandisk Extreme 111 CF card and the guy asked me "for what camera?" When I told him the 20D, he dismissed me haughtily saying. "No, that camera cannot use the speed" and walked away.

I found out on this forum that the 20D handles the Exteme 111 with quicker write speeds and bought one on the internet.

[CyberDyneSystems]

CDS, I meant digital. Canon has a pretty good lineup in terms of films.

I consider the D2H mid range, any D series Canon or D70/D100 Nikon Low end.


Ahh I see now.. yes the D2H is a great camera.. I did have a chance to try one last January.. when it was still hot off the presses :)

This was prior to owning my 1D,.. and I was very impressed with it. But I do not think it was intended to be a midrange,.. it was Nikon's flagship high speed shooter to rival the original 1D (three years late) :rolleyes:

...it was forced into a lower price bracket due to it's 4MP bot because Nikon wanted to maintian the importance of the 5MP D1X,.. and when the MkII dropped the 8.2MP bomb on it... :shock:

Definately a nice Camera,.. but I'd rather have the 20D frankly,.. in fact I essentially replaced my 4MP 1D with the 20D.