A better workflow for selling photos?

[AdamC]

First, a bit of background:

I started shooting action shots of my son's soccer matches, and set up a site to sell them to the other parents (http://shop.adamcurrey.com) I realise that having a potential market of maybe 12-13 families was limiting, but I figured I'd try it just to see what happened. Well, to cut a long story short, nothing at all. $0 in sales to date.

So, I'm toying with biting the bullet and shooting a bunch of games for other teams as well (same club) to see how that works out. The only problem is that my current workflow isn't really scalable enough to cope.

Currently, workflow is like this:-

1. Shoot game
2. Import into Lightroom
3. Filter out junk from keepers, edit for exposure, crop, etc. (anything up to 2-3 hours depending)
4. Upload full-size keepers to my shop site (30+ minutes depending)

This works ok for the volume I've been doing so far (1 game per weekend, 20-40 shots) but I can't see it being scalable to 10 or 15 or 20 games per weekend. Suggestions?

[Sports_Dude]

One thing I learned about online websites is that many parents don't have a clue how to use the internet. You can try to print out the pictures and sell them and the games to see if that generates more sales.

IMHO. I think you are taking way to long editing the pictures (up to 3 hours for up to 40 pictures). There are ways in lightroom to copy settings from previous pictures which will help you speed up your workflow.

I started an Individual Coverage sign up so that I am spending my camera time on those kids who have parents wanting to buy pictures. I charge $40 up front and provide customers with a minimum of 5 photoshop layouts along with 20-50 stock photos for them to choose from. On average each parent who signs up spends about $100-$200/ season on pictures of their child.

[AdamC]

One thing I learned about online websites is that many parents don't have a clue how to use the internet.

Hard to imagine in this day and age! Not saying I think you're wrong, just that it's hard to imagine.

IMHO. I think you are taking way to long editing the pictures (up to 3 hours for up to 40 pictures). There are ways in lightroom to copy settings from previous pictures which will help you speed up your workflow.

Yeah I do know that, I guess I like to attend to each picture according to its own needs. I also know that some people advocate posting up unedited photos and then edit only when a photo is actually ordered, but honestly I can't figure how that would work out.

I started an Individual Coverage sign up so that I am spending my camera time on those kids who have parents wanting to buy pictures. I charge $40 up front and provide customers with a minimum of 5 photoshop layouts along with 20-50 stock photos for them to choose from. On average each parent who signs up spends about $100-$200/ season on pictures of their child.

Interesting approach. I hadn't thought of that.

[Billo78]

Only 20-40 shots for a game? From my experience sports photography is a numbers game and if you're only taking 40 shots then you're minimising your chances of getting killer shots, although that's not really the issue here so apologies for getting sidetracked!

[jhawksley]

Invest in some quicker editing software. From my personal experience, I have found that I am easily 10x faster in Photo Mechanic than anything else. I use it to cull my shots from the usual 250 or so per game down to around 125 that I put on my site. You can set PM to have default crop sizes, so all you have to do is decide whether you like the frame or not, then crop it to your liking, and move onto the next shot. Then just run a batch export for your web-sized uploads.

It sounds like you are putting a lot of time into individual shots. While I don't post "unedited" work on my site, I probably spend, on average, less than 10 seconds on any one shot. I cull/delete in PM, then run a batch action in PS CS3 that does noise reduction if needed, curves, sharpening, watermark/text placement, and then flattens the image for upload. On a good day, I can process 2 games/hr from card to web.

[Jim G]

I wouldn't be uploading the full-res shots to your site - try some quailty 8-10 800px wide shots to showcase your work and only upload the full-res shots if you have to. Most quality 10 (in Photoshop) 800px wide images are <200k and take a heck of a lot less time to upload anywhere than a stack of full-res images.

Use actions to your advantage; say you find yourself doing a similar sharpening across your imagse set up a quick generic sharpening action that you can batch across your images then make minor adjustments to any that need further work.

Load photo -> curves, sharpening, saturation etc. if applicable, crop then export as full-res and 800px watermarked sample shot takes me <~30 seconds and I don't think I'm that fast - I used to take a heck of a lot longer but had to learn to speed up since PP'ing was taking up all my time!

If they're going to the website rather than just being emailed to someone I spend more time saving a 150px thumbnail for each shot then dropping them into the website template and batch uploading them to my server.

[bildeb0rg]

Take your lap top to the game, shoot the first half, then do a quick crop/edit on the pics.
Show the parents a slideshow at the end of the game, while the kids are changing, and hand out a few cards with your web site addy. Should work wonders.
No laptop? Hard to believe in this day and age.;)

[adam8080]

Shoot with RAW with a small JPG to use as a proof. Once it is ordered then feel free to edit the raw?

[PhotosGuy]

I also know that some people advocate posting up unedited photos and then edit only when a photo is actually ordered, but honestly I can't figure how that would work out. I agree with Jim & Adam. PrintRoom allwos uploading small images. You can set it up so if/when a shot is ordered, you will be notified & can upload the full res image file. One thing I learned about online websites is that many parents don't have a clue how to use the internet. Most of the guys who's cars I shoot are older, so I print a small sheet with directions & if they say they don't have inet, I tell them to give the sheet to their grandkids. ;)
It's worth printing out business cards with the sport related info on it & give them away like popcorn. Some parents like to wait 'till the end of the season, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to get their email so you can remind them that you're going to delete the files to make room for the next years images. (Doesn't mean that you actually have to delete them. It's called "Take Away" marketing.)

[vkalia]

Get it right in camera and reduce the PP faffing. 3 hours for 40 shots is too much - you will not be able to manage multiple events a weekend. Remember - your customers are not looking for photographic works of art, but sharp, well-exposed images of their kids.

My thoughts:
1/ Shoot JPEG and adjust the sharpness/saturation/contrast to get the results you need out of the camera. Also focus on getting WB right. Anything extra can be batch-applied in LR
2/ Use halftime to weed and upload your images - that can also continue while you shoot (your laptop has a high speed data connection, right?)
3/ Market, market, market - hand out lots of cards

Vandit

[adam8080]

Also focus on getting WB right.

This is especially important if you want to use small JPGs as proofs/previews!

[eigga]

Lightroom is great... you dont need anything but practice to make your workflow faster. If your keeper rate is less than 80% you need to do a better job on the "camera" part. Learn to keep the horizon straight in camera and keep the picture framed correctly in camera as much as possible.

Lightroom has a sync feature that is a big time saver.

Typical game for me is 200-300 pics. Hour of editing and 175-225 keepers minimum. I think a good goal for editing is 1 minute shooting = 1 minute editing.... so for an hour game you should be able to edit in an hour.

[AdamC]

Only 20-40 shots for a game? From my experience sports photography is a numbers game and if you're only taking 40 shots then you're minimising your chances of getting killer shots, although that's not really the issue here so apologies for getting sidetracked!

I typically shoot maybe 150 per game - 20-40 is just the keepers that take all the time to PP/upload.


You can set PM to have default crop sizes, so all you have to do is decide whether you like the frame or not, then crop it to your liking, and move onto the next shot. Then just run a batch export for your web-sized uploads.

I don't see how that would work for soccer - with the action varying in distance from me, the crop size varies from shot to shot too.

It sounds like you are putting a lot of time into individual shots. While I don't post "unedited" work on my site, I probably spend, on average, less than 10 seconds on any one shot. I cull/delete in PM, then run a batch action in PS CS3 that does noise reduction if needed, curves, sharpening, watermark/text placement, and then flattens the image for upload. On a good day, I can process 2 games/hr from card to web.

Agreed, I think I am, but the PP required seems to vary a fair bit from image to image, so I'm not sure batching would work so well. Willing to give it a try though.

I wouldn't be uploading the full-res shots to your site - try some quailty 8-10 800px wide shots to showcase your work and only upload the full-res shots if you have to. Most quality 10 (in Photoshop) 800px wide images are <200k and take a heck of a lot less time to upload anywhere than a stack of full-res images.

The thing about this is that I use progalleries.com.au - basically customers order prints on the site and the prints are processed from whatever size images you've uploaded. As far as I know, there isn't a mechanism for notifying me of orders so I can upload full size images before fulfullment, or even the option of self-fulfillment. I guess I may have to consider another provider, but progalleries is the only .au-based one I've found.


Get it right in camera and reduce the PP faffing. 3 hours for 40 shots is too much - you will not be able to manage multiple events a weekend. Remember - your customers are not looking for photographic works of art, but sharp, well-exposed images of their kids.

My thoughts:
1/ Shoot JPEG and adjust the sharpness/saturation/contrast to get the results you need out of the camera. Also focus on getting WB right. Anything extra can be batch-applied in LR
2/ Use halftime to weed and upload your images - that can also continue while you shoot (your laptop has a high speed data connection, right?)
3/ Market, market, market - hand out lots of cards

Vandit

The "get it right in the camera" advice is always a good one, but easier said than done. Soccer games are quite difficult WRT the lighting and position of the sun (frequently shoot at midday, requiring copious amounts of light fill in PP to fill shadows for example.) I always shoot in RAW, BTW. I do all my PPing on the desktop machine at home, couldn't imagine trying to do it on a laptop crouched on the ground beside the soccer field in the midday sun. :-| I have no Internet away from my house anyway.


Lightroom is great... you dont need anything but practice to make your workflow faster. If your keeper rate is less than 80% you need to do a better job on the "camera" part. Learn to keep the horizon straight in camera and keep the picture framed correctly in camera as much as possible.

Lightroom has a sync feature that is a big time saver.

Typical game for me is 200-300 pics. Hour of editing and 175-225 keepers minimum. I think a good goal for editing is 1 minute shooting = 1 minute editing.... so for an hour game you should be able to edit in an hour.

Yeah I love LR. Going from PS to LR probably cut my PP time by 75%. Interesting comment about the keeper rate though - I've read elsewhere that 10% is generally considered ok for ballsports like soccer. Not that it matters that much in this case - it's the keepers that take the time, not the tossers. :)

Thanks for your suggestions everyone.

[Sledhed]

1. Shoot game
2. Ingest and cull using Photo Mechanic (by far the best program for this)
3. Upload to my website
4. Go eat dinner

I don't process any photos and that includes cropping until an order has been placed for the photo. Usually within 20 minutes I'm uploading the shots from that days game.

[tim]

(Devils advocate)

Why would I need to buy a print? The previews on your website are easy big enough to print an ok 6x4, and there's no watermark.

Have you look at your site stats to see if anyone's even looking at the images?

[AdamC]

(Devils advocate)

Why would I need to buy a print? The previews on your website are easy big enough to print an ok 6x4, and there's no watermark.

Have you look at your site stats to see if anyone's even looking at the images?

Which one are you looking at?

http://adamcurrey.com is my 'portfolio'
http://shop.adamcurrey.com is my 'shop'

The shop site doesn't give per-photo viewing stats, but the per-album viewing stats indicate they're getting reasonable traffic (2-3 dozen hits each typically.)

[tim]

On 2nd look the 350 pixels probably isn't good enough to do an even semi-decent 6x4 so you're probably safe enough there.

[cdifoto]

Find a good in-camera parameter setting & shoot JPEG. Skip the fine tuning for stuff like this.

[PhotosGuy]

On 2nd look the 350 pixels probably isn't good enough to do an even semi-decent 6x4 so you're probably safe enough there. :D I had a guy take a 800px web image & make a "Great looking" 8X10" from it!

[tim]

6in with 350px is 58ppi. 10in with 800px is 80ppi. Minor difference, but I get your point - people either don't know about image quality, or don't care.

[vkalia]

The "get it right in the camera" advice is always a good one, but easier said than done. Soccer games are quite difficult WRT the lighting and position of the sun (frequently shoot at midday, requiring copious amounts of light fill in PP to fill shadows for example.) I always shoot in RAW, BTW. I do all my PPing on the desktop machine at home, couldn't imagine trying to do it on a laptop crouched on the ground beside the soccer field in the midday sun. :-| I have no Internet away from my house anyway.

Well, first off, I think everyone should find a system that works for them. However, before you quickly write off getting it right in-camera, consider how most professional sports photographers shoot. Most of them do NOT spend as much time in PP as you.

Now, you can choose to find your own path in this, and more power to you for following your own instincts as opposed to copying what the pros do. At the very least, see if you can automate some of these tasks.

In this example, I can see 2 or 3 pre-sets for adding fill light, for different degrees of shadows, and then applying a batch process.

Cheers,
Vandit

[cdifoto]

The "get it right in the camera" advice is always a good one, but easier said than done. Soccer games are quite difficult WRT the lighting and position of the sun (frequently shoot at midday, requiring copious amounts of light fill in PP to fill shadows for example.)
Let the backgrounds blow out. No one cares about those (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=537135).

[amfoto1]

Hi,

Some weeks I deal with 3000+ images. 1500 to 2000 is more common though.

I am often shooting in less than ideal and rapidly changing lighting situations, so I practically always use RAW (I use RAW + JPEG when we are offering on-site printing, so prints can be made quickly). This allows me to tweak exposure more freely and to handle odd light mixtures, as well as deal with any high ISO noise more effectively than is possible in camera.

I mostly post-process the images through Adobe Bridge and Adobe RAW Converter. I can easily do 100 to 200 images an hour, quite often even more, then I set Image Processor to do batch conversions while I go to dinner or Starbucks or return some phone calls.

These are "quick edits" for fast crop, exposure tweaks, color balance, but not a lot more. From these, thumbnails are generated and uploaded online for customer browsing, thumbnail catalogs are printed for reference and to display at future events, and we backup the RAW files.

Only once an image is ordered are final cropping and miscellaneous tweaking done. Whenever possible, the JPEG conversion is used for this finalizing. Other times we have to go back and do a fresh conversion (changing a crop, for example... or dealing with high ISO noise through Canon DPP, which I prefer over Photoshop's NR). That's no biggie, though.

This way we're not wasting our time with tons and tons of work on images that never get sold.

Tempted to give Lightroom a try sometime, it might speed up processing even more. I got a copy of Phase One Capture One LE recently to experiment with, but can't really say yet one way or another if it might help.

[Gary_Evans]

Good advice in this thread.

Our way, if it helps:

Photos shot in JPEG only
If the tog knows they have missed the shot, it is deleted in camera
Images downloaded on to laptop and table tech looks at the using Fotostation, any poor images deleted.
Proofs printed 15 per A4 sheet again in Fotostation. Takes approx 5 mins from start of download to 150 or more images on display. Why paper proofs? We can then have multiple parents/kids looking at the same time, it has been known for us to have 30 or more at the same time and I dont want 30 viewstations.
Customer chooses image, which is opened in Photoshop and cropped, corrected for density etc etc plus a bit of sharpening that a dye sub printer needs. Less than a minute from order to print

This way only ordered images are worked on, often proofs are on display before a game finishes. Time is of the essence if you want to make big money in eventing