Wedding Question - Flash and Advice Needed

[timelapseforum]

First off, I've been reading this forum for 2 hours now, and my friggin head hurts!!! Damn. :(

So here is the issue: I will be taking some pics at my sisters wedding - a small affair really - and she doesn't want to spend for a pro.

So, here is my current equipment list:

Canon 30D
Canon 17-85 IS
Canon 10-22
Canon 75-300 (the standard cheapy zoom)

The Challenge:

Wedding will be indoors - a room in a hotel, with not that much ambient light.

I have no experience with flash photography.

Limited rental budget i.e. less than 100$

My Questions:

1) Which equipment do I rent?

2) If I rent the 580 EXII flash the day of, can I learn how to use it in time? Can I just use it in auto mode and then focus on my camera settings and angles?

3) Is it better to just buy a diffuser, like The Puffer (http://store.garyfonginc.com/puf-01.html), and rely on my built in flash so that I can focus on taking the pictures?

4) In terms of lenses, I don't really have L glass or fast lenses. Do I rent the 70-200L IS as well as the 50mm 1.4? The latter is a steal for only 15$ and it is very fast glass.

5) Can I get away with only renting the 50mm l.4 and then just use my 17-85 IS and just lower the shutter some to compensate for the slow glass?

The store I rent from is called Lozeau and can be found here (http://www.lozeau.com/Content.aspx?nav_id=8690&lang_id=E).

Other Remarks:

Renting a backup camera body is out of the question. My 30D is relatively knew. Even though im not sure how many actuations I have on it. (i get different results with different methods!)

Much peace and love to everyone here, especially those that actually read this!

Thank you to all.

[D_CeLiRaToR]

the flash will be most usefull as long as it's allowed. 580ex has ettl metering so it basically does all the thinking for you. aim it up towards the ceiling it looks much better than direct flash. there's not a lot of fast movement at a wedding so low aperture isn't gonna help you as much. you'll prolly use the 17-85 for most shots.

[JeffreyG]

I'll leave it to the wedding photog's to beat you up for agreeing to this.

Me? I'd get the 580EX and the 50/1.4. Forget that useless pop-up diffusor.

Your MO:

For the wedding itself you need to know if flash is allowed. Given the venue I'm assuming yes. If yes you probably use it coupled with the 17-85. If the ceiling is low and white then bounce it. Shoot the camera in M at f/5.6-f/8 and use 1/100 or so. Point the 580 straight up. Adjust FEC to control the exposure and chimp like heck.

Ditto the reception.

Now for the 50/1.4. In any case where the flash is not allowed, or where ambient seems like a good idea try the 50. You will need to open it up and boost the ISO. I would not shoot slower than 1/125 as you simply cannot otherwise be confident to have stopped even slowish motion.

[Wilt]

No pro is going to beat up the bride's brother who agrees to shoot in lieu of a pro...she KNOWS what she is letting herself in for, you are not advertising your services as a professional photographer in spite of being a newbie! Yes, you are getting in over your head, but no one should blame you for misleading an innocent bride who does not know you and your level of competance!

Now, having said that, the first thing I will tell you is to NOT BRING AND USE equipment which you have no familiarity with and no prior experience in the general use of that level of product (with the sole exception to this statement being for a lens!) This is not the time to be trying out gear for the first time! At the minimum, rent it weeks or months before the wedding and do shooting with the rental item and familarization with it before hand, so that when the wedding comes it is NOT a 'new' item in your hands for the first time. This is ten times more true of any flash unit used with ETTL under your Canon control, as there are far too many ETTL flash ideosyncracies to navigate if you want good results. ETTL fools flash veterans with decades of experience with flash, and takes a bit of time to adjust to! I have four decades of flash experience behind me, and ETTL still threw me for some unexpected loops during my first half year of usage. And even veteran ETTL users are periodcally tossed an unexpected oddity.

[timelapseforum]

I'll leave it to the wedding photog's to beat you up for agreeing to this.

Nah. She knows I'm not a pro.

Now, having said that, the first thing I will tell you is to NOT BRING AND USE equipment which you have no familiarity with

Yup. That's why I mention in my post that I have no flash experience. After reading the forum, I got the idea that flash photog. is complex indeed.

Me? I'd get the 580EX and the 50/1.4. Forget that useless pop-up diffusor.

I'll get the 50 for sure. The diffuser is not useless. If you are forced to use the built-in pop-up flash, then it really does help.

Any more ideas on whether to get the 70-200 2.8 IS?

thanks for the replies.

[JeffreyG]

I'll get the 50 for sure. The diffuser is not useless. If you are forced to use the built-in pop-up flash, then it really does help.

Any more ideas on whether to get the 70-200 2.8 IS?

thanks for the replies.

How big is this diffusor? I can see a softening with a 42" (1385" square) umbrella, but the difference from say, the 1" square pop-up flash and the 4" square 580EX direct is negligible.

Unless that diffusor is a lot bigger than the head of a 580EX (like several times the area) it isn't likely to appear very soft, and the bigger it gets the less likely the popup will have the power to reach far enough with it. Diffusion eats flash power like mad.

[timelapseforum]

How big is this diffusor? I can see a softening with a 42" (1385" square) umbrella, but the difference from say, the 1" square pop-up flash and the 4" square 580EX direct is negligible.

Unless that diffusor is a lot bigger than the head of a 580EX (like several times the area) it isn't likely to appear very soft, and the bigger it gets the less likely the popup will have the power to reach far enough with it. Diffusion eats flash power like mad.

The diffuser is a side note, really. My camera store doesn't rent diffusers for the 580ex anyway. But all I meant to say was that if someone was forced to use the built-in pop-up flash, and had no choice, then getting something like Gary Fong's puffer is better than shooting without it.

Example shots (http://store.garyfonginc.com/puf-01.html) and from what others say, it is works as much as a pop-up flash can.

[poloman]

Like it or not, you just might really need a flash.
If you don't want to get a camera flip style flash bracket. Shoot all your direct flash shots in landscape mode (holding the camera normally). The problem with direct flash is shadows. If you turn the camera the flash is then on the side and can create undesirable shadows. Try to shoot your subjects when they are not too close to a wall. Read the FAQ in the flash section about using the flash. Practice ahead of time, preferrably in the the same space. Watch out for dark eye sockets when using bounced flash. If you can afford it, pick up the Lumiquest Pro system. http://www.lumiquest.com/
Make sure you have at least two sets of fully charged batteries. You will need the flash for reception anyway. Learn to use the histogram to judge your exposure. Make sure you keep your ISO high enough to have a decent ambient background. Make sure you don't flash the official in the eyes. They are trying to read.
Shooting weddings is great! A bunch of people that look their best that want to be photographed. What could be better? Make sure you have recharged all batteries and formatted all cards and packed all gear the night before.
Have fun!
The 50 will be handy and worth getting. Don't bother with the 70-200 unless it is a 2.8. You will probably be able to get close enough in that venue that you can get by with your other lenses and the 50mm.
If you do a search on this forum on weddings, you will find a lot of tips that will be helpful.

[DStanic]

You are gonna get really crappy results with the popup flash, and probalby miss alot of shots if you don't use flash at all (regardless of what lens you use). Get the 580EX.

I brought along my 70-200 to the last wedding I shot but not having a second body sucked because there is NO time for changing lenses. You are better off keeping the standard zoom on the whole time. The only time I used my 70-200 was when we went to the park and I did some portrait shots of the B&G. It would have been nice to use during the ceremony but I must stress again that having a second body to do it is almost nessesary or you might miss something when swapping lenses.

17-85mm- I really hope that you can use the flash the WHOLE time, because it will NOT cut it indoors in low light with no flash. Really a lens such as a 17-50 f/2.8 (any standard zoom with f/2.8 aperture) will work the best indoors. Something like a 85mm f/1.8 might be good though for the ring shots and little details like that.

The easiest thing to do for the indoor shots will probably be having your camera set to manual, ISO800 or so, 1/160 or something quick enough for no blur, and whatever aperture you want. Go to the hall/church/whatever during the rehersal and see what setting work for you and try bouncing the flash you'll get nicer results. I wouldn't worry too much about diffusers the 580EX has a built in one you can use.

[poloman]

Keep in mind that your aperture is important to your flash exposure and your background exposure, while your shutter speed affects only the background exposure. This is because the flash is faster than your shutter speed. If you have too slow a shutter speed you will get motion blur just from exposure of your subjects due to ambient light.

[tdodd]

If it helps, I managed to shoot an entire wedding with a 30D, 17-85 and 580EX. I was a DSLR newbie at the time and shooting for my step-sister. The whole wedding party was only 22 people and there was no pro hired and I sort of ended up as guest/tog as I was the only one in the group with a DSLR.

I did get myself into difficulties but shooting in raw helped me salvage most of the shots. I'm sure the pros would laugh at my efforts but the B&G were absolutely delighted with them, and that's what counts more than anything.

There is an album of my results here - http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTiger/200610_Kim_and_Andy_Wedding.

After the wedding, when I realised what a hash I'd made of things I did ask for some advice on what I should have done. Maybe the thread will be useful. Here it is....

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=286091

and another....

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=472301

[tim]

There's some useful information in the wedding faq (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=255604).

[timelapseforum]

Lots of helpful information. Thanks for the continued responses. Keep em coming!!

[timelapseforum]

I actually like your images. But as was mentioned in the thread you linked too, the depth of field was too great.

Hopefully, the 50 1.4 I will get will help blur out the background.

If it helps, I managed to shoot an entire wedding with a 30D, 17-85 and 580EX. I was a DSLR newbie at the time and shooting for my step-sister. The whole wedding party was only 22 people and there was no pro hired and I sort of ended up as guest/tog as I was the only one in the group with a DSLR.

I did get myself into difficulties but shooting in raw helped me salvage most of the shots. I'm sure the pros would laugh at my efforts but the B&G were absolutely delighted with them, and that's what counts more than anything.

There is an album of my results here - http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTiger/200610_Kim_and_Andy_Wedding.

After the wedding, when I realised what a hash I'd made of things I did ask for some advice on what I should have done. Maybe the thread will be useful. Here it is....

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=286091

and another....

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=472301

[tdodd]

I actually like your images. But as was mentioned in the thread you linked too, the depth of field was too great.
Thanks :) Yeah, that f/5.6 max aperture at the long end was a big problem for two reasons - shutter speed and DOF - especially as I had the camera stuck at that aperture throughout the indoor shooting. An extra two stops on the aperture would have been sooooooooo much nicer.

I've now got a 17-55 f/2.8 IS and 70-200 f/2.8 IS, which I'll be using at my next wedding, plus a nifty as a backup. It'll only be my second wedding and I'm assisting and second shooting for a pro. Gulp! If that goes well I'll be assisting/shootingfor the same pro a week after that and another week after that. I really hope the lessons have sunk in. That original wedding was almost two years ago.

Don't you love how sharp the guy with the video is in the background - NOT!

[cdifoto]

Yup. That's why I mention in my post that I have no flash experience. After reading the forum, I got the idea that flash photog. is complex indeed.
It's not really complex. It, like anything else, just takes practice. There's more to it than just "bounce straight up" if you want the best results from it.

The two biggest hurdles are knowing

1) Where, when, and why to bounce and
2) How and when to apply FEC (Flash Exposure Compensation).