Beware if you fly with a laptop, PDA, iPhone, etc.

[DonShreve]

Here's another outrage perpetrated by our government; a secret until it was exposed by the last vestiges of a "free press".

Travelers' Laptops May Be Detained At Border (washingtonpost.com)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/content/article/2008/08/01/laptops.html

I just wrote to both my senators, by US rep, the TSA & Customs, as if it will make any difference.

Don Shreve
http://www.shreveimaging.com
Fayetteville, AR

[estisdal]

One of the many other nerd forums I read has covered this issue.

It boils down to a Supreme Court ruling that the nation has a sovreign right to protect itself at the borders. As a person petitioning to enter the country, you're subject to what would normally be considered unconstitutional searches and seizures whether you're a citizen or not. All in the name of security.

Your suggestion to contact Congressional representatives is the best course of action.

[gary88]

This may take place "absent individualized suspicion.When a review is completed and no probable cause exists to keep the information, any copies of the data must be destroyed.That's absolutely ridiculous. I'm honestly shocked at the lengths this "protection" is being taken to. And I have a flight back to the US on Thursday :confused:

[mackidbrendan]

the worst part is that they can take it for as long as they want. for no apparent reason.
im flying to boston in a week and leaving my ipod, macbook air, external HDD and other crap behind. and packing my CF cards in my check in luggage and keeping one CF in my pocket. its going to be a long flight :(

[ssim]

Just about any country has the right to confiscate one's laptop and other storage devices. Having worked in the travel industry for a long time I have heard of very few instances where it is unwarranted. There have been alot of cases though where they have found hard drives with alot of children porn and rightly so detained the person. It is goes well beyond the war on terror but most of the rulings have been added to the books post 911 to give the governments the power to do this.

I have traveled to from Europe to Asia and alot around north America (writing this from my hotel in Honolulu right now) and always have my laptop and external hard drives. I have yet to have a problem. When I see people freak out about this you are playing right into the government paranoia. The honest people in this world have very little to worry about.

Where is the fine line between individual freedoms (which I have yet to have mine or any of my families infringed upon) and what the governments must do in order to protect us.

[JWright]

Let's just hope the policy changes after January, 'cause the administration will change, hopefully for the better...

[Barb42]

The key words are "at the borders", meaning that someone from OUTSIDE the COUNTRY is attempting to come in and at that point could be subject to laptop retention for review. They are not talking about everyone flying from one point in the country to another place in the country. If you are not trying/planning to overthrow the US govt or attacking its people, you should be fine. Once in this courntry, there are Constitutional guarantees and processes that protect us. BTW, there are 300 MILLION people in the USA and tracking what every single person does would be a difficult, if not impossible, task for anyone, let alone a group as inept as Homeland Security.

[Amamba]

Just about any country has the right to confiscate one's laptop and other storage devices. Having worked in the travel industry for a long time I have heard of very few instances where it is unwarranted. There have been alot of cases though where they have found hard drives with alot of children porn and rightly so detained the person. It is goes well beyond the war on terror but most of the rulings have been added to the books post 911 to give the governments the power to do this.

I have traveled to from Europe to Asia and alot around north America (writing this from my hotel in Honolulu right now) and always have my laptop and external hard drives. I have yet to have a problem. When I see people freak out about this you are playing right into the government paranoia. The honest people in this world have very little to worry about.

Where is the fine line between individual freedoms (which I have yet to have mine or any of my families infringed upon) and what the governments must do in order to protect us.

I am sorry but this is a very naive statement (and I have no intent to insult you or start a flame war). There's plenty of confirmed stories where people were intimidated or even arrested for as little as calmly approaching VP on public property and stating that his policies are "reprehensible" (google up "Howard + Cheney + lawsuit", or "free speech zone" - a very cynical invention btw). The government, given any chance, would take away as much of your freedom as it can; it got much worse under the current administration but it's true for any gov't and any country. The problem in this particular case is not that there's a law giving them such powers - I can see why this could be needed in certain situations - but that there's no clearly spelled out limits / guidelines, and this leaves a lot of room for abuse. You're at will of a local agent, and while I agree that 99.99% of them are honest and ethical, you have zero protection against someone on a power trip who just happened to have a bad mood that day.

[Dennis_Hammer]

I have traveled in and out of the country four times since this was enacted and never once have I left any of this type of stuff home and on return I was asked if they could look thru my laptop. I agreed they looked three times 10 minutes, 1 time 20 minutes (had about 10k photos on it that time) and left each and every time with my all my stuff. I think if you looked into it, it is a relatively small number maybe miniscule number of item confiscated, considering it covers ipods, phones, cd's etc etc. And I doubt they keep anything without suspicion. I got the max search thing once when I dropped my license out of my pocket while in line and had to go back 15 feet to get it. I was not annoyed. To be honest if they are catching terrorist or even child pornographers I am all for it. And as far as approaching a pres or vp and start harassing them because you don't agree with the governments policy, well I think there are better ways to do it than that. And if the person was persistent I would want them arrested or removed from the area, and that would be for George Bush, Bill Clinto or any of the next ten presidents and vp's that come along. If you want to be thought of as intelligent that act that way, if you want histrionics to 'make a point' well there is freedom of speech, but no where does it say there is freedom of stupidity. Secret service's job is to protect the man regardless of his politics so don't put those guys in a position to choose a side, you will lose. By the way just doing what he did will get you arrested in London just ask Christian Bale.

[3Turner]

Really, what are the odds of my laptop, pda, or cell phone being 'detained'. I am not going to change any of my travel habits because of this. I admit, I have not traveled by air out of the country, but I do plan to in the future someday and I am sure this will still be in place. Dosen't phase me at all.

...{SNIP}...To be honest if they are catching terrorist or even child pornographers I am all for it. And as far as approaching a pres or vp and start harassing them because you don't agree with the governments policy, well I think there are better ways to do it than that. And if the person was persistent I would want them arrested or removed from the area, and that would be for George Bush, Bill Clinto or any of the next ten presidents and vp's that come along. If you want to be thought of as intelligent that act that way, if you want histrionics to 'make a point' well there is freedom of speech, but know where does it say there is freedom of stupidity. Secret service's job is to protect the man regardless of his politics so don't put those guys in a position to choose a side, you will lose. By the way just doing what he did will get you arrested in London just ask Christian Bale.I couldn't agree with you more. You took the words outta my mouth. No matter who is the next Numero Uno, head hancho of this country, I am still gonna have to follow along cause he is the Commander in Chief......chain of command 'n all.

[fishfoto]

This has been discussed for many months. This stems from a 2006 ruling by the 9th Circuit Court ruling. Really this absolute rule of what Customs can do was started when the Customs Service was started.

The Washington Post was two weeks behind a US CBP Public Policy notice, 6 months behind PC Magazine, 7 months behind ABC News, 2 years behind the 9th Circuit Court Ruling, nearly 50 years behind some Customs rules were changed (I am trying to pin down a year, it was sometime in the 60s) and 219 years behind the US Customs Service was established and it's authority was stated in its charter (US Customs was dissolved in 2003 when it was reformed as the US Customs & Border Protection under the US DHS)

I wrote this up the other day on my blog for Flying Photogs, and still assert that it was just a slow news day for The Post to cover this story at all,much less the front page:
http://flyingwithfish.blogspot.com/2008/08/us-customs-has-right-to-search-your.html


I do have a legitimate concern for the US CBP looking through my laptop. I have documented homeland security both domestically and abroad since 2001 as a news photog. I have a few hundred images on my laptop for presentation purposes that detail 'homeland security.' I don't want to spent 6 hours explaining myself to US CBP on how I gained access to these situations (including on USCG and Army choppers, in the holds of cargo ships, with US CBP Agents as they deport someone,etc etc).


......Dennis you've been stopped twice? I have yet to be stopped once. I hand them my form and exit, no second look form anyone in Customs (although I recently had an odd incident with Immigrations demanding my work permit Visa to enter the United States, when I clearly handed the agent my US Passport and it stated I was bornin New York and was a citizen of the United States)

[FlyingPhotog]

Let's just hope the policy changes after January, 'cause the administration will change, hopefully for the better...

I'm with you JW...

I sure as hell hope "None of the Above" wins in November...it's our only hope.

:(

[fishfoto]

Here's another outrage perpetrated by our government; a secret until it was exposed by the last vestiges of a "free press".

I just wrote to both my senators, by US rep, the TSA & Customs, as if it will make any difference.



FYI:

This was NOT a secret. In fact the US CBP publically posted their policy on the 16th of July 2008 without any scandal or upheaval from the public or press. They published it to have the information out there. You can read the US CBP Search Authority policy here : www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/travel/admissability/search_authority.ctt/search_authority.pdf

Also, the TSA, while part of the US DHS has nothing to do with the US CBP which is also part of the DHS. The TSA has no part in the US CBP policies, their functions are very different.

I can be a very harsh critic of the US DHS and particularly the Sect of Homeland Security, but in this case the policy of the Customs Service has been essentially the same since July 31st 1789 and just updated to meet the changes in how date passes through the borders.

I may not agree, but it is the same right they have always had to read every single piece of paper in your pocket when you enter. This is also a very similar policy to the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan, China, Russia, Brazil, Germany, Switzerland, etc etc etc.

[ssim]

I am sorry but this is a very naive statement (and I have no intent to insult you or start a flame war). There's plenty of confirmed stories where people were intimidated or even arrested for as little as calmly approaching VP on public property and stating that his policies are "reprehensible" (google up "Howard + Cheney + lawsuit", or "free speech zone" - a very cynical invention btw). The government, given any chance, would take away as much of your freedom as it can; it got much worse under the current administration but it's true for any gov't and any country. The problem in this particular case is not that there's a law giving them such powers - I can see why this could be needed in certain situations - but that there's no clearly spelled out limits / guidelines, and this leaves a lot of room for abuse. You're at will of a local agent, and while I agree that 99.99% of them are honest and ethical, you have zero protection against someone on a power trip who just happened to have a bad mood that day.

Quoting isolated cases out of the millions of people that cross our borders is fear mongering at its best. But that is what I love about our society, we can all have our opinions.

I am with most others here, I am not going to change my travel habits. I am not going to leave any of my electronics behind because I think they "might" detain some of it.

I highly doubt that they look at the customs line and say, "Let's get that fifth guy in line". I would fully expect that they may have some reasoning behind their decision. Of course there is always going to be the people that are paranoid about the government and anything that they do to "them". I still feel it is for the greater good and as long as I live within the rules of society I have nothing to fear.

[mwdakota]

Some people just wont get it till the law enforcement breaks their front door down for having a child and a Twinkie in the same house!!!! Your rights are quickly becoming a thing of the past.

[FlyingPhotog]

Some people just wont get it till the law enforcement breaks their front door down for having a child and a Twinkie in the same house!!!! Your rights are quickly becoming a thing of the past.

Can you tell me exactly how many people you actually know who've had this happen?

Thanks...

[cdifoto]

I've had no trouble taking my laptop from USA to Mexico and back again. Then again, I don't even look suspicious. If you do, try showering, shaving, and/or getting a haircut.

Some people just wont get it till the law enforcement breaks their front door down for having a child and a Twinkie in the same house!!!! Your rights are quickly becoming a thing of the past.
I'm not a fan of Twinkies. Do Swiss Rolls count?

[fishfoto]

Damn, two of my kids are sitting in the kitchen right now eating Devil Dogs.........hold on,I need to go pull down the window shades!

[cdifoto]

Don't forget the dead bolt ya perv!

[alexg]

The absurd part of this whole thing is not that they can take your ****, is that these idiots think a terrorist will actually try to smuggle data across the border... this isn't 80s and you don't need punch cards to carry information. If anything, it could be sent via post on a CD which is pretty much a drive through when it comes to "national security".

On the other hand, I had to cross US border about a dozen or so times in the last year with a bag full of electronics... granted, I don't fit racial profile by a long shot.

[FlyingPhotog]

AP .. NEWSWIRE

New York, NY

Interstate Bakeries Corporation (IBCI) today announced that in response to reported wide-spread home invasion by law enforcement, Twinkies, King Dons, Ho-Ho's, Suzy Q's and Sno Balls will be available in plain brown wrappers beginning in January of 2009.

[fishfoto]

The absurd part of this whole thing is not that they can take your ****, is that these idiots think a terrorist will actually try to smuggle data across the border... this isn't 80s and you don't need punch cards to carry information. If anything, it could be sent via post on a CD which is pretty much a drive through when it comes to "national security".

On the other hand, I had to cross US border about a dozen or so times in the last year with a bag full of electronics... granted, I don't fit racial profile by a long shot.


In fact debriefing and interrogation of terrorists have determined that most data on specific targets comes from memory. The recon/scouts from these terrorist cells are trained to do their job. These are not the suicide bombers, these are trained scouts who go out to do a mission and report back with their findings. It is hard to download someone's brain at a US CBP check point.

That aside, if you were to send data you would create an encrypted file and upload it to an FTP, or send it from a Yahoo e-mail address to another Yahoo e-mail address from a public computer. This would get your data to the end user safely and without ever needing to deal with law enforcement.

(I covered these topics for years as a journalist before you start calling
the feds on me and my box of pastries)

[fishfoto]

Don't forget the dead bolt ya perv!

Don't worry the door is chained as I sit here with my Violet Crumble candy bar

[DDCSD]

Laptops are often treasure chests of information. Not every terrorist is all that smart.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/04/29/cx_ah_0429tentech.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/world/americas/04venez.html?ref=americas


And directly related:
* On November 14, 2006, Detroit CBP Officers inspected the baggage of an Ethiopian-born, naturalized U.S. citizen based on a law enforcement tip that he was attempting to smuggle currency into the United States. The inspection revealed approximately $79,000 in unlawful U.S. currency. CBP then reviewed his laptop computer and discovered information about cyanide and nuclear material. The individual pleaded guilty to bulk cash smuggling and making false statements. He was sentenced to twelve months in prison.
* On September 26, 2006, an individual, traveling on an F-1 student visa arrived at Minneapolis St. Paul Airport from Amsterdam. He was selected for secondary screening. A review of his laptop computer revealed numerous video clips of Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) being exploded. Another file on the computer showed the individual reading his will and included pictures of high-level Al-Qaida officials. Based on this and further derogatory information uncovered by computer forensics, the individual was refused admission, convicted of visa fraud, and removed from the country.
* On February 22, 2007, an individual arrived at the San Francisco International Airport seeking admission as a U.S. lawful permanent resident. CBP referred him to secondary inspection based on his behavior and questions by CBP officers. During an inspection of the individual’s laptop computer, officers discovered violent jihadist materials. This evidence led to expert testimony in immigration proceedings that identified the individual as a target for a terrorist group recruiting. His laptop was seized as evidence in this case and he is in removal proceedings.



http://www.dhs.gov/journal/leadership/2008/06/cbp-laptop-searches.html

[cdifoto]

Don't worry the door is chained as I sit here with my Violet Crumble candy bar
Kinky!

[bnlearle]

This type of nonsense is so typical these days... Honestly, you must know that you're more likely to not only lose your data on the way to the airport bu also, oh I don't know, DIE on the way there!

As someone stated, reporting remote, isolated events as if that is representative of the whole is fear-mongering.

In flying back from shooting a wedding in France last month, I had my laptop detained for a while. About ten minutes, or so. Never in my wildest dreams did I feel like the Germans were infringing upon my rights...

Bobby

[fishfoto]

Bobby,

We all know the Germans hate wedding photogs, that is why you were stopped.

I have been lucky in that I have never had my laptop searched in the US or anywhere. I just wander out past Customs and keep moving.

.....of course I am going to get stopped 5 times in the next 5 trips since I have said this.

[cdifoto]

.....of course I am going to get stopped 5 times in the next 5 trips since I have said this.
Just throw your ding dong wrapper in the garbage before you get to the detectors and you'll be fine. :D

[JWright]

I'm with you JW...

I sure as hell hope "None of the Above" wins in November...it's our only hope.

:(

I honestly don't think either party has fielded a good candidate since the election of 1860...

[FlyingPhotog]

I honestly don't think either party has fielded a good candidate since the election of 1860...

And in that election, you voted for...?

<Ducking and Running> :p

[fishfoto]

In 1860 I was leaning towards Stephen Douglas. I liked the name of his Vice President.............Herschel Vespasian Johnson

Douglas and Lincoln were both from Illinois, so you know a vote for the north was well.....a vote for the north :lol:

[FlyingPhotog]

Some (hell lots) of the people I run accross on NASCAR will tell you that war ain't over yet... ;)

[mwdakota]

Can you tell me exactly how many people you actually know who've had this happen?

Thanks...
None yet but wait

[mwdakota]

You just don't get it!!! In talking with my well educated mother of 73 years, even she feels that our rights have been eroded. I can feel fairly safe in the fact that she is nether a "CP" trader or a tearoist... and even at her age she feels that the people of the us are becoming dumbed down when It comes to the rights of the people of th US...

[mwdakota]

oh and BTW she fly's with an laptop, digital camera, Ipod, and cell phone!!! So with out cause she can have each and every item confiscated indefinitely/
So stop a 73 year old woman from seeing the world because she might have porn or terrorist intents! Because that law stopped 0 terrorists and 1 (maybe) ((Paul Carlock)) child porn delivery guy... If your willing to give your rights up for that I guess I cant agree with you!

[FlyingPhotog]

None yet but wait

NO... :evil:

Screw that mentality completely. I won't think this way and I sure as hell won't live my life looking over my shoulder, waiting for something that might or might not happen. :rolleyes:

Good God, I also could get hit by a freakin bus tomorrow so should I stay in my house all day every day? :cry:

You do whatever the hell you choose to do but I much prefer to live my life IN the current world and not in SPITE of it. :p

[derky82]

Some (hell lots) of the people I run accross on NASCAR will tell you that war ain't over yet... ;)

Ugh... tell me about it!

Try spending the first 25 years of your life in upstate NY and then moving to rural South Carolina... I love it here for the most part, but at times it can be terrifying! I was told the other day that it was a pleasure to have me "on their side"... I'm still not sure exactly what that means! lol

- Derek

P.S. I live 12 miles from a NASCAR track! haha

[gary88]

UPDATE:

I flew into the US today from Poland, my laptop and iPhone are still here ;)

[FlyingPhotog]

Ugh... tell me about it!

Try spending the first 25 years of your life in upstate NY and then moving to rural South Carolina... I love it here for the most part, but at times it can be terrifying! I was told the other day that it was a pleasure to have me "on their side"... I'm still not sure exactly what that means! lol

- Derek

P.S. I live 12 miles from a NASCAR track! haha

We stay in Florence for the Darlington weekend during the FOX portion of the season.

[DDCSD]

NO... :evil:

Screw that mentality completely. I won't think this way and I sure as hell won't live my life looking over my shoulder, waiting for something that might or might not happen. :rolleyes:

Good God, I also could get hit by a freakin bus tomorrow so should I stay in my house all day every day? :cry:

You do whatever the hell you choose to do but I much prefer to live my life IN the current world and not in SPITE of it. :p

Thank you!

[derky82]

We stay in Florence for the Darlington weekend during the FOX portion of the season.

Oh wow, you're kidding! Thats cool. You come to shoot the race, i'm guessing? Or are you here as a fan?

- Derek

[FlyingPhotog]

Oh wow, you're kidding! Thats cool. You come to shoot the race, i'm guessing? Or are you here as a fan?

- Derek

A peek at my not quite "9 to 5" world:

http://www.pbase.com/flyingphotog/scenes_from_the_road

[fishfoto]

The number of people affected by these searches and subjective to the suspicion, or whim, of the US CBP Agent you encounter as you exit the immigrations area upon entry into the United States. The actual number of people stopped has not changed much in the past few years, and some US CBP stations have a higher stop rate than others. People are now more aware of it because no one is being asked to show them the paper documents in their briefcase, now they want to see the documents on your laptop and a laptop a seen a more of an invasion than handing over your notebook or day-planner.

There have been some cases of US CBP searching laptops of those departing, rather than entering, but those have been as part of targeted missions by the US CBP rather than seemingly random searches upon entry.

While many feel our rights are being eroded by the US CBP's ability to search our laptops, that fail to recognize that the US Customs Service (now US CBP, as part of the US DHS) has had this authority since its charter was created on the 31st of July 1789, the 5th Act of the fledgling US Congress. So this ability to search without probable cause and without a warrant, circumventing the the 4th Amendment for the past 219 years.

While I may not agree with the broad powers of the US CBP, it is well documented and difficult to challenge. The 9th Circuit Court Ruling in 2006 upheld that electronic data is subject to the same review as analog data, such as the pieces of papers in your pocket or backpack that Customs has always had the authority to review. As society shifts away form carrying notebooks and and file folders of pens-and-paper notes and moves to transporting information in laptops, on hard-drives and on PDA's , the US CBP needed to clarify it's authority. It did so not only with the 9th Circuit Court ruling,but also with it's July 16th 2008 public statement of it's search authority.

Again, while I may disagree in some areas, no ones rights have changed. No policy has changed. We now simply carry more personal data with us everywhere we go. I know what I have on my Blackberry would fill a whole notebook...........

[derky82]

A peek at my not quite "9 to 5" world:

http://www.pbase.com/flyingphotog/scenes_from_the_road

Haha yeah, i actually found that RIGHT after I posted my last reply. That is awesome! You have some really great stuff in there. Looks like you ave some pretty great access to go most places and shoot! *jeaous!* :-)

- Derek

[FlyingPhotog]

Haha yeah, i actually found that RIGHT after I posted my last reply. That is awesome! You have some really great stuff in there. Looks like you ave some pretty great access to go most places and shoot! *jeaous!* :-)

- Derek

Thanks.

While the "day job" does get me some behind the scenes access (and pays for my photo toys...), it also gets in the way of doing any actual on track stuff.

'Cause while the cars are running, of course, we're on the air and I'm welded to my position in the production truck. :(

It was better several years ago because we didn't cover every single practice and every single qualifying session. Now, if it moves, we televise it!

[fishfoto]

Flying,

Having shot the Super Bowl (as seen on your PBase) , the Olympics, World Series.......and others I have to tell you there are way more fun things to shoot. I spent six seasons covering the Patriots and have always seen the Super Bowl as any other NFL game with just more deadline pressure.

At least with NASCAR you have unlimited access to funny looking people cheering for a redneck who can drive it like they stole it :0)

[FlyingPhotog]

Flying,

Having shot the Super Bowl (as seen on your PBase) , the Olympics, World Series.......and others I have to tell you there are way more fun things to shoot. I spent six seasons covering the Patriots and have always seen the Super Bowl as any other NFL game with just more deadline pressure.

It's so funny that you say this about the SB. That's pretty much exactly what they try to impress upon us too. "Think of this as just another football game..." / "We aren't doing anything we haven't done on any other Sunday afternoon..."

Yeah, right. 10x the budget, 5x the cameras, an opportunity to have your career (and *ss) handed to you if you screw up, and more suits running around than at the Men's Warehouse with keesters so tight you could get diamonds from coal.

Just another day at the ol' stadium... :rolleyes:

At least with NASCAR you have unlimited access to funny looking people cheering for a redneck who can drive it like they stole it :0)

Rule #1: Don't "MF" the race fans. 'Cause without the race fans, ain't nobody in NASCAR got a job... :lol: