Catalog wants my photo, I have no idea what to do next

[NickC]

I've been approached via email by a known outdoorsman catalog company that saw one of my air show photos on the web and they want to use it for a single use in a monthly edition of their catalog which goes to 925,000 people.

I am completely bamboozled about what to do. They want an invoice via email (I even have a purchase order number already). Do I need to include a short contract? What is the rate for such a thing? They even told me what their budget is, $900, but some books and online photographer's resources say that $150-400 is more common.

Thank you in advance for any advice.

[vwpilot]

First off you should find out how they are going to use it. Will it be a cover shot, 1/4 page shot, full page, etc. Then you can guage accurately.

But, according to FotoQuote, a catalog with distribution between 500k and 1 million would start at $787 for the lowest 1/4 page photo to $6201 if its a wrapped cover shot. So you can see that it varies very widely.

But the median price for the smallest size would be about $1050, so you could go with that $900 they gave you and put on the invoice its for one time use only up to 1/4 page. If they want to use a larger photo then you can negotiate from there.

I would suggest that for what you will make on this one and only sale, go right now to www.fotoquote.com and download and buy that software as soon as you can. It will be more than paid for and will help you to negotiate a fair price should they want further or larger usages.

[NickC]

Thank you for your help. It's a national catalog - Orvis. They found the pic on my personal site. I've emailed them back to find out the printed size.

This is the pic in question:

http://www.deaddogparty.com/airshows/moffett2004/moffett2004-02.jpg

[vwpilot]

Great shot Nick.

Go out now and buy that software I suggested, it will more than pay for itself.

Work with them and find out what size they want to use. If they really only have $900 to spend, then charge them the $900 and make sure in the sales contract they are limited to a 1/4-1/3 page size only.

GO REGISTER THAT PHOTO WITH THE COPYRIGHT OFFICE!!!

It will cost you $30 to do and then you are very protected from them using it in a way not described in the sales contract. If you write in the contract for 1/4 page use and they use it full page you will win very big from a company like that.

You dont necessarily have to have a full signed contract, however on the invoice be very clear what the sale is for. By them paying the invoice they agree to the outlined usage and you are good to go. If they dont pay or if they use it in another way, you then have the copyright registration to fall back on and can recover funds.

Good luck.

[NickC]

Thanks again! :)

[Mike Panic]

http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm

use that as a guide for pricing :)

[pyterps]

I looked at the photo and love it....great shot.


I just have a question. Would one need permission from the pilot or the wingwalker prior to using this picture for gain? What if I took a picture of an airplane of a major airline and a magazine wanted to use it...would I need a release from the airline?

I'm also an avid golfer and attend PGA tour tournaments and take pictures when the public is aloud to photograph. If I took a picture of Tiger Woods could I sell it without a release.

I no this post does not answer the question about what to charge but I think it still kind of fits in.

Dave

[vwpilot]

I looked at the photo and love it....great shot.


I just have a question. Would one need permission from the pilot or the wingwalker prior to using this picture for gain? What if I took a picture of an airplane of a major airline and a magazine wanted to use it...would I need a release from the airline?

I'm also an avid golfer and attend PGA tour tournaments and take pictures when the public is aloud to photograph. If I took a picture of Tiger Woods could I sell it without a release.

I no this post does not answer the question about what to charge but I think it still kind of fits in.

Dave

This brings up a good point. You should get a property and model release from the people in that photo. Technically you are not allowed to make commercial gain off the image of another without their permission, so you may want to try to do this. Or just hope they are not Orvis shoppers.

In your airline example you would not need permission if it was being used in a magazine for editorial purposes. Sales for editorial use is open, you do not need any releases. However, if it was going in that mag as an advertisement you would need their permission.

In your Golf example, same thing. Editorial is fine, but any other commericial gain is an absolute no no. And I can guarantee you that if Tiger ever caught you, he would come after you big time, he is very aggressive in protecting his image.

Reasoning behind this is for the image protection of those in the photo, but also to keep from having conflicts of interest. For instance, say you take a shot of Tiger with a big Puma sign behind him and Puma wants to use it in an ad. Well Tiger is sponsored by Nike, so there is no way they would ever want his image to be promoting another brand of shoe.

So you have to be very careful in these kinds of sales.

[IndyJeff]

I am thinking you might not need a release because no one in that photo is easily identifiable however, you should consult with an attorney to be sure. If he advises that you get a release, can you? Do you know how to contact the promoter? He can put you in touch with the wingwalker and the plane owner. I am thinking you may have to worry more about the plane than the wingwalker.

[NickC]

I was giving the release thing a thought too. I've contacted the company on their thoughts.

[pyterps]

VWPILOT....what do you mean by editorial?

For the same reason you mentioned I have seen several folks have the pro's sign golf balls after they finish a round. If the golf ball is not the one they are sponsered by they normally will not sign it. This is why most of them only sign the golf balls given to them by the caddy.

I assume that if I was at an angle that the only thing in the picture was the golfer and the sky I could sell this photo with no problems???

[Jetpilot]

I am thinking you might not need a release because no one in that photo is easily identifiable

Depends on how you define that. The airplane is a one of a kind called the "Showcat" flown by Gene Soucy. The wingwalker is Teresa Stokes. I recognized them the instant I saw the picture.

I'd plan on getting that release!!!

[IndyJeff]

There ya go. JetPilot knew not only about the plane but the wingwalker as well. A release would be a great idea at this point.

Let's do a hypothetical situation, either the planes owner or the wingwalker has a family member who gets that catalog. They see the picture now and give a heads up to one of these two. They are not pleased to see their image in this catalog without any acknowledgment or compensation/ First call is to their lawyer. He finds out from the catalog company that they are not aware of any release. So he demands payment for teir likenesses.

Situation 1....the catalog pays and then comes after you for payment. A situation they are likely to win however, they should have asked for a release before printing the image. You may be fine and a judge may blame them more than you.

Situation 2.....they tell the attorney to take a leap. He files suit against them and you for using the images of his clients without their permission. They will lose and you will be right alongside of them, equally at fault.


Get a release, protect yourself.


edit: Lets say you can get the release, think of what happens when someone calls the catalog and asks about where they got the photo. Now you already have a signed release and are free to sell that image again, and again, and again......

[vwpilot]

pyterps,

Editorial means any use like newspapers, magazines, tv news, etc. Those are all editorial outlets that are reporting news of an event and for those purposes you are free to sell your image in any way you want. This is why the paparazzi can sell photos of celebs to the Enquirer and such without the permission of the celeb.

Now, when it comes to your golf examply you still cannot sell that photo on ebay or for advertising or anything else other than editorial use. The golfers image is a protected thing. In pro sports, the image of the athlete is, in a sense, copyrighted or trademarked and cannot be used for profit in without their permission. That means no prints for sale, no advertising uses, nothing. However, if a magazine wants to use it you are welcome to sell it for that.

You even have to deal with things like the courses rights. If you are on a recognizable hole on some famous course, that is even protected and you cannot sell the image without the course giving permission to do so.

So, yes, even though you snapped the shot, you framed it, you designed it, and you own the copyright of the photo, THEY are what are actually providing the means for that photo and they do have a right as to how the photo can be used.

[NickC]

Well luckily Gene has his own website and email address. I've sent him a message. As for Teresa, she is really tiny in the photo and probably doesn't fit the definition of "recognizable" that a model release would be necessary. However, we'll see what Gene says.

The shot is being used to suppoprt a short blurb on air shows in general and not hawk a particular product, so in that sense it's an editorial usage. Don't know if that matters.

It's interesting that opinions from here and there range from "don't need a release" to "get one."

[pyterps]

VWPILOT

Thanks for the explination...I'm learning about this side of the business all the time.

[scubafly]

If you need help with the verbage of the contract, you may want to download Blinkbid Pro. There is a 14 day free trial with the program. The Usage License Builder may be helpful. www.blinkbid.com

Tom

[NickC]

If you need help with the verbage of the contract, you may want to download Blinkbid Pro. There is a 14 day free trial with the program. The Usage License Builder may be helpful. www.blinkbid.com

Tom

Windows AND Mac versions! :mrgreen:

[Jetpilot]

Hey NickC,

Please keep us posted about how Gene responds and what the ultimate outcome of this is. I am just beginning my journey into the world of photography and this is a situation that I hope to find myself in someday.

[NickC]

Hey NickC,

Please keep us posted about how Gene responds and what the ultimate outcome of this is. I am just beginning my journey into the world of photography and this is a situation that I hope to find myself in someday.

I received email today from Teresa with permission. I'm pretty sure the advice from the folks here would be "get it in writing."

[IndyJeff]

Most definately get it in writing. Also ask for 3 copies of the catalog and send one to each of them. The catalog people may offer you a tear sheet which would work too and is cheaper for them than a whole catalog.
You can take a tear sheet, mount it on a plaque with a brass plate depicting the publication and the date, cover that in a protective glass and send one to each of them.

[Monito]

As for Teresa, she is really tiny in the photo and probably doesn't fit the definition of "recognizable" that a model release would be necessary.
Recognizability is not a function of whether you can you see their face or not. There is likely only one wing walker almost ever on that very specific plane, hence she is "recognizable" even though she is wearing a helmet and may be small in size. This is proven by the fact that a reader of this thread recognized the plane and her.

The shot is being used to suppoprt a short blurb on air shows in general and not hawk a particular product, so in that sense it's an editorial usage. Don't know if that matters.
The publication's purpose is primarily commercial, not editorial, so the editorial exclusion would not apply. You will need a release.

Sounds like you are doing the right thing.

Bottom line: great shot. Keep shooting!

[NickC]

Thought I'd update this thread with a scan of the catalog page. Last week I finally obtained a copy of the catalog which is actually in Orvis stores now -- it's the Summer 2005 Destinations catalog. Got a teenie photo credit in the center of the page!

http://www.deaddogparty.com/airshows/orvis_th.jpg (http://www.deaddogparty.com/airshows/orvis.jpg) 88KB - click thumbnail to see

[charlesu]

Good for you!!