Help-Pricing on difficult Digital Photo's

[rainrainrain]

Hi,

As of late, one of my livejournal friends has asked to buy two of my digital photo's. I answered Yes, and at the present time, i need to send her the pricing and shipping information.

However, i am honestly new to this, never having sold any of my photo's. The photo's however, aren't at all beginner.

I've tried my hand at researching various forums and several websites, but found that many of the answers did not make things any easier for me.

So, i just need some help. Here are several essential questionsL

1. How do i price the photo's?
2. What prices would you recommend?
3. Do i print the photo's at a photo lab (cvs, etc) or somewhere more professional (anpther photo lab)? Online? Suggestions
4. Are there any requirements for the photo paper that i need to use?
5. Do i ask the buyer if they desire a frame?
6. Where can i find a frame and what material should i use? Do any places install the frame for you?
7. The photos will be for her personal use. In turn, do i need to copyright them or use any legal documents and how? Forms, etc.?
8. What type of shipping method should i use so that the photo's will not be damaged? Should i pack anything inside to prevent damage?
18. How should the picture and the frame all thogether
9. Is there anything that i am missing?

Any help would be Greatly Appreciated.

Thank You,
Sincerely,
Stanley Sandler

[vwpilot]

Here is my pricing for prints:

8x10 - $25
8x12 - $30
10x13 - $35
10x15 - $40
16x20 - $80
20x30 - $100
24x36 - $125

Now, if you want to offer framing that is up to you. Find out how much it would cost to frame from a shop that specializes in it and charge maybe twice to three times the framing cost to the customer or something like that.

Any good photo lab that gives you good results on photo paper is acceptable. Even if its a Costco or Wal-Mart. As long as the quality is good, the customer does not need to know how much you spend on printing, so get it done as inexpensively as you can as long as the quality is good. I do all my printing at a Ritz because I know the people and they know what I expect.

If you end up sending just prints, most printers will give you mailers that you can use, this is what I do if its 10x15 or smaller. If its larger I roll them and put them in a mailing tube.

If you are sending a framed print, have a specialist like a Mailboxes or UPS store do all the packing and shipping since it will be all guaranteed. My shipper will put plastic on the glass and use special boxes and packing to ship them. Pass the shipping costs on to the customer.

Just print up an invoice stating that they are for personal use only and that they are not to be transferred or reproduced without your permission. Them paying that will be like a binding contract. If you dont trust them then you should absolutely copyright the photo. If you do trust them then its still a good idea to copyright the photos.

If the photos have anything that is recognizable in the shot such as people, copyrighted logos, property, etc. then you will technically need to have property or model releases in order to sell the photo. You can always hope you dont get caught, but you should have them.

[Vega$50]

Is there someplace online you can go to to get the copyright forms for Photo's....sorry to be lazy...

[vwpilot]

www.copyright.gov

[Mike Panic]

its worth mentioning that all photos by us citizens (and other countries as well) are copyrighted as soon as the new "file" is created to that person. if you would like documented proof, then you need to submit a form and fee for every image

[IndyJeff]

its worth mentioning that all photos by us citizens (and other countries as well) are copyrighted as soon as the new "file" is created to that person. if you would like documented proof, then you need to submit a form and fee for every image


Mike while you are correct that you own the copyright when you create the file but, enforcing that ownership becomes rather difficult if the image is not registered.

First off you may not collect any attorney fees if the image is not registered.

Secondly, the amount you can collect is greatly reduced if the image is not registered.

Third, a cd of images may be submitted as a group/collection instead of each image for the same amount of $30.

Fourthly (is that a word?), good luck on finding an attorney who is willing to take the case if the image is not registered. With a typical case, attorney fees being in the $50,000 range, you will not collect enough to pay your attorney if you win and the image is not registered.

[Mike Panic]

indy,

you have very valid points... and im not sure how involved you have been in this in the past, but i can only share w/ you what i have personally gone through, as one of my images from my website was printed in a national magazine, w/ watermark and all

i wont bore everyone w/ all the details and everything... ill try to sum it up and keep it short and to the point.

after doing some research i found a few specific copyright attorney's and contacted them for some advice... after being pointed to a very well respected one in the state in which the magazine is published, i got this advice.

-unless you have documented proof from several seperate cases in where you sold images (digital files, prints, etc) for X price under Y conditions / restrictions, any persuit in regards to recovery of money lost from said image being used is nearly impossible and / or would be cost prohibitive - meaing it would cost you so much in attorney fee's that its not even worth it.

now... im not sharing this to be discouraging... by all means spend the $30 if you have doubt... but unless you forsee yourself selling your work for several grand on more then one occasion, chances are if you get screwed, you kinda have to suck it up and move on.

in my case... not happy w/ sucking it up i spent 2 days on the internet untill i tracked down a phone number for the EIC of the magazine - and finally someone in his office (dumb them) gave me his cell phone # since he was out. in a nutshell, he admitted to having being caught w/ his pants down and blamed it on what he thought was an intern who was not properly informed in regards to researching materials and using them in print. as a good faith measure, he offered me ad space for 2 months in the magazine and, common in most magazines, put a retraction in the front w/ other "errors" that viewers of the mag have submitted

[vwpilot]

Mike, your info is mostly correct for an un-registered image, BUT if it is registered it doesnt matter if you have ever sold anything every before.

If you have a registered image the violator is responsible for ALL attorney's fees and you are not only entitled to the going rate of the violation, you are also entitled to punitive damages which can easily run into the 6 figures if its a significant violation.

That is fact.

What indy is saying is that if you are not registered you could have sold the same thing a hundred times over with documented proof of price and all you can EVER recover is the fee for the violation which might only be a couple hundred or if you were severely violated couple thousand dollars. Far less than any attorneys fees would be.

That is why there is not an attorney anywhere that will take a copyright violation case if you are un-registered, but you would be able to choose from a bunch interested in your case if it IS registered.

You can be Joe Schmoe that has never sold anything or ever wanted to with some snapshots up on your personal website. And if someone takes that image and uses it for some commercial gain and you happened to have it registered, you can be in for your biggest payday in your life.

I know of someone that sold an image that normally would have sold for a couple thousand dollars which was taken in violation. He told the company he wanted $10k for it since it was copyrighted and if there wasnt a check in his mail the next day he would call his lawyer. He had a check for $10k in his mailbox the next day because the company KNEW they were screwed if he took them to court.

Everything with normal photo pricing is out the window when it comes to registered images. That is why its so important to do it and do it right.

They also have to be marked the proper way or you can lose out on punitive damages and they have to be registered the proper way. Un-published images (never in public domain including website) are registered one way and there is no time limit on when you have to do it. Published images (even websites) are registered another way and must be registered within 90 days of first publication. If you register a photo that was put on your website as un-published you are screwed. Do it right, follow the directions and do it.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Yes, Mike,. what your lawyer told you seems to be reinforcing what Jeff stated,.

ei: If you don't actually register your copyrite, you are most likely SOL....

[IndyJeff]

Guys this is really simple let me explain, if you have an image that let's say is used in a magazine and you are paid $350 for that image. A month later, or even a year later, you see the same image being used in another magazine. Under the provisions of the law, you can sue for the unauthorized use of that image but, there are certain restrictions which are in place.

Now the amount you can collect is equal to that amount for which the image would have normally brought you in a usage fee, in this case $350, if the image was not registered. No attorney fees, no punitive damages, nothing but the $350. Any attorney who will take this case is an ambulance chaser that isn't very good at getting judgements in accident cases. In a year he will be selling real estate, or running for political office.

Now if that image was registered, you can collect attorney fees, and punitive damages. That same $350 image now can be worth $100,000 by the time all is said and done. Of course it cost you $30 to register it but hey, you can afford that now can't you?

If you want to register an image, for example the My Pumpkin shot in the best of the best contest. The person who took that image didn't take just one shot that day. They probably have 20-50 images from that day. Now they can procede 1 of 2 ways. Register that one image for $30 or, register everything that was shot that day along with everything they shot that month and title it October Collections. So now they have 200 images on the cd, guess what? It still costs $30. Which way makes sense?



On a side note, if you have any images in that contest, today would be a good time to register it along with any others which you would like to protect.
Imagine how you would feel if you owned The Wrangler and later see it being used in a national ad. Man what a payday that would be if it was registered.

[pyterps]

OK...let me ask the dumb question and ask where I can get pointed to register images?


Do you all normally register all the pictures you take or only the ones you know my be sold?

Thanks...Dave

[vwpilot]

OK...let me ask the dumb question and ask where I can get pointed to register images?[/quote[

Look at the fourth post in this thread


[QUOTE=pyterps]Do you all normally register all the pictures you take or only the ones you know my be sold?

Thanks...Dave

All, because you never know when it might get used and you can lump them all in with the same ones that are being sold for the same amount of money.

[pyterps]

Does the copyright office accept DVD's? Could I list the collection as all the photos I took in 2004?

Thanks...Dave

[vwpilot]

Does the copyright office accept DVD's? Could I list the collection as all the photos I took in 2004?

Thanks...Dave

Dont know that they accept DVDs, you would be safer to use CDs, but you can submit multiple CDs as the same submission.

You can submit all from '04 as one submission if you want, as long as they are submitted properly. Any that were EVER posted anywhere on a website or in print means they are published and cannot be submitted with non-published photos.

So you would have to collect everything that was ever published anywhere (including the net) and put those together as one submission, and then collect everything that was not published and submit those together.

[pyterps]

VWPILOT

Just so I'm straight on this. If I posted a picture on this forum then this would become a published photo? So anything like this would have to be on one CD for a $30 fee? And all the other photos could be on multiple CD's and submitted for another #30 fee?

[vwpilot]

If you posted it here, it would be considered published.

I talked to them at the copyright office and was told this. They are a little behind the times so there is nothing solid WRITTEN out there about what is published and what isnt in the digital age. However, the point of the published law was to differentiate those that were in a more likely position to be stolen (published) from those that were not (unpublished). They told me to consider ANYTHING that puts the photo in easy possesion of the general public, consider it published. That means anything published anywhere on the web since anyone can simply take it from there without any problem whatsoever. So I would consider anything you posted to be published and anything that has never left your own hard drive to be considered non-published.

But, I cant explain exactly how to register both, you have to go to the site posted above and follow the directions. Yes, it will cost you $30 to register the published and $30 to register the non-published. But there are very different processes and requirements for registering both, so you have to make sure you do it right or you will not get your registration.

Published are supposed to be registered within 90 days of the publication. Non-published can be registered any time. Non-published means at time of registration. If you send in your registration Monday and you put them on your website Tuesday, thats ok, at time of registration they were non-published. So if you often put stuff up on websites, it may be easier and worth the money to register images each time you shoot as non-published before posting them.

But all of this is laid out on the copyright website. Go there and do some research and you'll figure it out. You can also look at this tutorial on the ASMP website. http://www.asmpweb.org/commerce/legal/copyright/

[ilya]

If you want to register an image, for example the My Pumpkin shot in the best of the best contest. The person who took that image didn't take just one shot that day. They probably have 20-50 images from that day. Now they can procede 1 of 2 ways. Register that one image for $30 or, register everything that was shot that day along with everything they shot that month and title it October Collections. So now they have 200 images on the cd, guess what? It still costs $30. Which way makes sense?


By the way, a big thanks to IndyJeff for representing my pic (my pumpkin) on a potential sale to a pumpkin farm. If there's anyone around I'd trust to do this the right way, its Indy.

Thanks man.

[IndyJeff]

Your welcome Ilya and I tried. They liked the photo but, even before we got to talking about money for the photo they said they wouldn't have much of an advertising budget for this year. SO the subject of a licensing fee never even came up.

I haven't given up all hope as of yet. I think they may want it but, it will be down the road a year or two. LOL Who knows, they may call me in August and tell me how they absolutley need that photo for a billboard and I need to get it to them ASAP. Of course an emergency like that means more money!! LOL

[robertwgross]

I find it fascinating when companies contact me about using my photos for their advertising. Then I inform them of the money deal (and my rates are cheap). Then they go into sticker shock and claim lack of a budget. That just sounds so lame.

I just end the discussion with, "Well, I hope to do business with you in the future when you have a budget."

---Bob Gross---