Full Frame...Canon vs Nikon

[HughScot]

As everyone knows, if you use a Nikon DX lens with either the D700 or D3 the megapixels drop to 5. Since the 5D and MkII/III are full frame and do not drop in megapixels regardless of the Canon lens used why does only Nikon have this problem? I realize EF-s lenses only work with certain bodies. It would seem to be a significant problem for Nikon users.........any comments or am I missing something?

Hugh

[ef2]

I don't know anything about the Nikon system, but I would guess it automatically crops when it detects a DX lens (assuming DX = designed for digital) whereas Canon FF retains the vignetting if you use a lens designed for crop (various Sigma, Tamron and Tokina's).

[René Damkot]

It's not a "problem".

EF-s lenses won't work on a FF camera, since they extend deeper into the body, and thus the mirror would smash into the rear of the lens.

Nikon DX lenses *do* fit any F bajonet camera, but have a too small image circle for FF. So Nikon decided to "auto-crop".

[mrclark321]

Nikon gives you the ability to use them Canon does not, this is a plus for Nikon not a negative.

[HughScot]

It's not a "problem".

EF-s lenses won't work on a FF camera, since they extend deeper into the body, and thus the mirror would smash into the rear of the lens.

Nikon DX lenses *do* fit any F bajonet camera, but have a too small image circle for FF. So Nikon decided to "auto-crop".

Yes I am totally familiar with the EF-s lenses but had no idea Nikon decided to "auto-crop". Can you provide a link to a site where I might get more information on this subject. Thanks.

[SkipD]

Nikon gives you the ability to use them Canon does not, this is a plus for Nikon not a negative.You can use (third-party) "crop" lenses on Canon "full-frame" DSLR's. The only difference is that with the Canon cameras you would have to manually crop out the vignetting circle around the center portion of the image in post processing while the Nikon can do the cropping in the camera. The results would be the same.

[ed rader]

You can use (third-party) "crop" lenses on Canon DSLR's. The only difference is that with the Canon cameras you would have to manually crop out the vignetting circle around the center portion of the image in post processing while the Nikon can do the cropping in the camera. The results would be the same.


yeah i'm not seeing any huge advantage of using lenses that i would never buy for my camera that does not utilize full resolution.

ed rader

[René Damkot]

Can you provide a link to a site where I might get more information on this subject. Thanks.

Here you go: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD3/page4.asp.

I'd think Nikon would explain it as well on their site?

[hai]

yeah i'm not seeing any huge advantage of using lenses that i would never buy for my camera that does not utilize full resolution.

ed rader

the crop lenses are actually smaller, lighter, cheaper and probably with zoom ranges that are unavailable in full-frame lenses. when you shoot in crop mode on a D3, you can go up to 11fps vs 9fps at full-frame. whether or not this is a huge advantage depends on the user.

[basroil]

Either way, d3/d700 has less pixels than a 5d...

Like others said, dx lenses on a d3/d700 is like third party digital only lenses on a 5d. Some EF-S lenses also work if you shave the bottom off.

The DX mode was kept as an equivalent to the D2Xs's sports crop mode, where it gave you a 2x crop in exchange for more speed and quicker buffer writes. Too many professionals went with the cheaper DX version f2.8 wide zooms and if Nikon didn't have a DX mode, those professionals would have one more incentive not to get a new camera. Kind of like having sRAW on new cameras (but with a crop rather than resolution being lowered).
And hai, d3's max framerate is with servo af off, 12bit only. Kind of sucks considering that the 1dmkiii does 10fps at 14bit with servo af on. Kind of spoils that fun right?

[The Fox]

Does Nikon have any DX lenses that are better(cheaper, sharper... something) then their FX full frame lenses?
From what I understand they really only have consumer stuff that is DX, not too much high end professional lenses.
Nick

[The Fox]

yeah i'm not seeing any huge advantage of using lenses that i would never buy for my camera that does not utilize full resolution.

ed rader
The only reason to use a D300 instead of a D700 if you have mostly DX lenses. It is true 12mp and not 5mp.
Nick

[JeffreyG]

Does Nikon have any DX lenses that are better(cheaper, sharper... something) then their FX full frame lenses?
From what I understand they really only have consumer stuff that is DX, not too much high end professional lenses.
Nick

They have a 12-24 DX and a 17-55 DX that are both about $1000 and well regarded.

Why anybody would spend $3000 on a D700 but be too cheap to sell off their 17-55 or whatever is beyond me. I'm not in the hunt for a $3000 1.5X five megapixel camera personally.

If I bought a D700 and owned a bunch of DX lenses I'd sell off the DX lenses and get the Nikon 14-24 and the 24-70 most likely.

[SOT]

The D3 will "auto crop" when it detects the lens, just as it will "auto crop" at the high burst rate.

[jr_senator]

Canon, Nikon, EF, FX, EF-s, DX, can't we just get along?

[hai]

And hai, d3's max framerate is with servo af off, 12bit only. Kind of sucks considering that the 1dmkiii does 10fps at 14bit with servo af on. Kind of spoils that fun right?

like i said, some folks can take advantage of an extra frame rate. with 12bit and at 5MP, you have smaller file size so buffer can hold more images so that's a plus. and oh, that 1dmkiii can do 10fps at 14bit with servo af on is only useful if it focuses in the first place :lol::lol:

[hai]

The D3 will "auto crop" when it detects the lens, just as it will "auto crop" at the high burst rate.

you can choose to auto crop or not from the menu

[mrclark321]

Until recently I had the D300 with the 12-24(DX) 24-70, 70-200 and a 300f/4. I added the D700(full frame) and can use it with all my lenses only downfall is that with the 12-24 it's 5.1mp. How many Canon users here started with a 20D, 30D or 40D and added or or moved up to a pro body or 5D. It's like the pop up flash, it's not something you like to use but if your in a pinch it's there to use. :)

[basroil]

like i said, some folks can take advantage of an extra frame rate. with 12bit and at 5MP, you have smaller file size so buffer can hold more images so that's a plus. and oh, that 1dmkiii can do 10fps at 14bit with servo af on is only useful if it focuses in the first place :lol::lol:

Ever actually used one? :rolleyes:

Anyway, various tests between 1dmkiii and d3 "prove" that the 1dmkiii keeps focus twice as well as the d3 ;)

Before we talk too much about Canon vs Nikon on the term of FF, lets wait two more weeks, Canon should be just about ready to finally give us a second generation FF prosumer SLR.

[hai]

Ever actually used one? :rolleyes:

Anyway, various tests between 1dmkiii and d3 "prove" that the 1dmkiii keeps focus twice as well as the d3 ;)


i'm pretty sure these guys saw those "proofs":
http://www.kareldonk.com/karel/2008/...on-in-trouble/ (http://www.kareldonk.com/karel/2008/08/15/canons-dslr-division-in-trouble/)

:lol::lol::lol:

[ed rader]

the crop lenses are actually smaller, lighter, cheaper and probably with zoom ranges that are unavailable in full-frame lenses. when you shoot in crop mode on a D3, you can go up to 11fps vs 9fps at full-frame. whether or not this is a huge advantage depends on the user.


sorry. just not feeling it. i have the 1d mark III which will rip off 10 fps and give me full files.

ed rader

[ed rader]

i'm pretty sure these guys saw those "proofs":
http://www.kareldonk.com/karel/2008/...on-in-trouble/ (http://www.kareldonk.com/karel/2008/08/15/canons-dslr-division-in-trouble/)

:lol::lol::lol:


i guess when the big guy gets mad at canon he lets the nikon trolls run loose :D?

ed rader

[The Fox]

They have a 12-24 DX and a 17-55 DX that are both about $1000 and well regarded.

Why anybody would spend $3000 on a D700 but be too cheap to sell off their 17-55 or whatever is beyond me. I'm not in the hunt for a $3000 1.5X five megapixel camera personally.

If I bought a D700 and owned a bunch of DX lenses I'd sell off the DX lenses and get the Nikon 14-24 and the 24-70 most likely.
Okay, I should have guessed that the 17-55 F2.8 was a DX lens.

The most experience with Nikon I had was with film and ff lenses not too much in the digital besides the 18-135mm at my high school.

[cyrn]

Before we talk too much about Canon vs Nikon on the term of FF, lets wait two more weeks, Canon should be just about ready to finally give us a second generation FF prosumer SLR.

And at about the same time Nikon will announce their 24MP FF flagship.:eek:

[jr_senator]

...It's like the pop up flash, it's not something you like to use but if your in a pinch it's there to use. :)

Your post caused me to realize that, except to be sure it worked, I never used the on board flash with my 20D.

[jr_senator]

i guess when the big guy gets mad at canon he lets the nikon trolls run loose :D?

ed rader

I can round up the sheep and bring in the cows, but Nikon trolls I don't mess with.

[basroil]

And at about the same time Nikon will announce their 24MP FF flagship.:eek:
Doesn't change the fact that Nikon only has a 12.1MP FF camera in a normal form factor three years after Canon announced a 12.8MP one. In FF, Canon consistently has delivered great cameras, first with the 1ds, then up from there.

And if Nikon does come out with one, it'll be in 6 months min, and only be able to do 12bit 24MP at iso 200-1600 with 3 fps. :rolleyes:

i'm pretty sure these guys saw those "proofs":
http://www.kareldonk.com/karel/2008/...on-in-trouble/ (http://www.kareldonk.com/karel/2008/08/15/canons-dslr-division-in-trouble/)

:lol::lol::lol:

I'm pretty sure I also saw a Korean guy run his truck into a cellphone company's offices because his phone didn't have reception everywhere. I think it's a case of a stressful life in Korea that drives Korean men insane rather than any actual problem. here's a link http://www.crunchgear.com/2007/04/12/korean-man-retaliates-poor-cell-service/

[cyrn]

Doesn't change the fact that Nikon only has a 12.1MP FF camera in a normal form factor three years after Canon announced a 12.8MP one. In FF, Canon consistently has delivered great cameras, first with the 1ds, then up from there.

And if Nikon does come out with one, it'll be in 6 months min, and only be able to do 12bit 24MP at iso 200-1600 with 3 fps. :rolleyes:



Some of the sensor specs are already known... and those are
. 24MP
. 12 bit from sensor but processed to 14bit in RAW (point to note is what's Canon's sensor ADC bit width?)
. 6 fps

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08013001sony35mmcmossensor.asp

Not sure about ISO tho.. speculated to be 200-3200 native.

btw... regarding Nikon being 3 years late...well... it doesn't matter that the chinese invented gun powers, they didn't invent the cannons... the rest is (real) history. :lol:

[EOSBoy]

I suppose the DX compatibility was to save the market instead of adding some sort of feature upgrade. Since everyone had DX lenses prior to the FF D3, just imagine a new flagship model released that requires you to spend $4k and additional $$$ because they require specialized lenses. Wouldn't you feel sold out?

DX cropping is just Nikon looking out for their older customers.

Hopefully I didn't repeat anything said above, I didn't read anything above me..lazayyy

[hai]

sorry. just not feeling it. i have the 1d mark III which will rip off 10 fps and give me full files.

ed rader

ok, that's how you feel. my point is that's an extra thing you get when shooting in crop mode. some like it some don't. it's still more useful than a direct print button :lol:
but since you automatically assume I'm a Nikon troll without checking my other posts there's no further comments.

Doesn't change the fact that Nikon only has a 12.1MP FF camera in a normal form factor three years after Canon announced a 12.8MP one. In FF, Canon consistently has delivered great cameras, first with the 1ds, then up from there.

And if Nikon does come out with one, it'll be in 6 months min, and only be able to do 12bit 24MP at iso 200-1600 with 3 fps. :rolleyes:



I'm pretty sure I also saw a Korean guy run his truck into a cellphone company's offices because his phone didn't have reception everywhere. I think it's a case of a stressful life in Korea that drives Korean men insane rather than any actual problem. here's a link http://www.crunchgear.com/2007/04/12/korean-man-retaliates-poor-cell-service/

all I did was to point out some usefullness of DX lenses and the D3's ability to do 11fps in crop mode and you responded by comparing it with a 1dmiii and making a sweeping generalization about Korean men. don't know why you're so defensive and I have no interest in any NvsC debate so I'll end it here.

[JeffreyG]

I suppose the DX compatibility was to save the market instead of adding some sort of feature upgrade. Since everyone had DX lenses prior to the FF D3, just imagine a new flagship model released that requires you to spend $4k and additional $$$ because they require specialized lenses. Wouldn't you feel sold out?

DX cropping is just Nikon looking out for their older customers.

Hopefully I didn't repeat anything said above, I didn't read anything above me..lazayyy

The DX compatibility is probably mostly software and so easy to include. Several Nikon shooters at first were like, cool, now I can keep my DX lenses and go FF. Then I bet all of them thought it over and realized $3000 is a lot of money for a 5MP 1.5X camera these days.

It's a feature that sounds really good until you think about it for a few seconds.

Nikon did have a little problem with having no FF camera for so long. Their cusomters loaded up on DX lenses since there was no Nikon reason not too. This feature is a sop to those customers that delivers nothing really.

[EOSBoy]

I suppose I agree, when I think about it, haha!
I wouldn't be too offset about the 5MP because I have yet to print out 8x10's or anything for that matter. But spending a couple grand for complete focal lengths to end up with 1.5x isn't too cool..At least Nikon has put the effort in using the DX lenses.
But I'd rather get an accessory lens adapter for FF sensors.

Since this thread is a 'vs' thread, the thing I'd say Nikon has over Canon is ergonomics...I'd rather have more turn dials for quick use than repetitive menu work like Canon. I'm just hoping the 5D MKII will fulfill what Canon should have added and even more.

[The Fox]

*cough* Nikon Sucks *cough*













GO CANON!!!!!

[JeffreyG]

I suppose I agree, when I think about it, haha!
I wouldn't be too offset about the 5MP because I have yet to print out 8x10's or anything for that matter.

OK, but anybody who spends $3000 or more for a pro level FF camera is printing bigger than 4x6.

My point in fact, is that anyone willing to shell out for a D700 must clearly plan to actually use the resolution advantage of the FF sensor. Anyone who plans to use it mostly with DX lenses can save a bundle and get a D300.

[The Fox]

http://forums.slsknet.org/ipb/style_emoticons/slskboard/whistle.gif

[cyrn]

My point in fact, is that anyone willing to shell out for a D700 must clearly plan to actually use the resolution advantage of the FF sensor. Anyone who plans to use it mostly with DX lenses can save a bundle and get a D300.

Very true, almost all Nikon users I know have a mix of DX and FX lenses. Nikon's 2.8 "trinity" was and is still very much sought after.

[radiohead]

And hai, d3's max framerate is with servo af off, 12bit only. Kind of sucks considering that the 1dmkiii does 10fps at 14bit with servo af on. Kind of spoils that fun right?

Sorry to spoil your fun but this is totally incorrect.

The D3 can shoot 9fps whether in 12 or 14 bit, lossless, compressed or non-compressed. It does it with continuous drive on or off. The D300 (A DX body) slows the frame rate in 14 bit. The D700 also does not slow in 14 bit.

Use the D3 in DX mode and you'll see 11fps.

So by all means slate the D3 but at least get your facts right before doing so.

[Zilly]

yeah i'm not seeing any huge advantage of using lenses that i would never buy for my camera that does not utilize full resolution.

ed rader

Ok example Joe blogs wants to up grade his camera system of 40d and a couple of efs lenese to the 5d how ever he has to upgrade all his glass as well to alow it to work this makes Joe decided he cant aford to upgrade and sits tight where he is.

Tom blogs has a nikor d80 with dx lenses he upgrades to the d700 and then upgrades his glass over time as the DX system still works with the d700 just no to the full potential

the crop lenses are actually smaller, lighter, cheaper and probably with zoom ranges that are unavailable in full-frame lenses. when you shoot in crop mode on a D3, you can go up to 11fps vs 9fps at full-frame. whether or not this is a huge advantage depends on the user.

11fps you also loose AF and metering which is not the greatest idea up in the world :rolleyes:

[radiohead]

11fps you also loose AF and metering which is not the greatest idea up in the world :rolleyes:

You don't lose AF - it just doesn't refocus between shots. May or may not be a problem. AF occurs at 10fps though. Metering? Well I'd most likely be on manual at that speed anyway.

But you're right.

[Zilly]

You don't lose AF - it just doesn't refocus between shots. May or may not be a problem. AF occurs at 10fps though. Metering? Well I'd most likely be on manual at that speed anyway.

But you're right.

Ok so you loose af servo not great for sports is it . . . . 400mm f2.8 and focus lock from the start of the trigger press realisticly its not going to get any more than the first 2 or 3 shots in focus before the person is in the dof.

[radiohead]

So drop it to 10fps DX or 9fps FF. Hardly a negative is it.

With the amount of configuration available around AF points, dynamic or user-controlled, 3D or not, firing on focus or release or both, AF with lock-on settings and so on it's going to be able to do just what the shooter wants.

[mrclark321]

Hugh try attaching that Canon 10-22 on a 5D and see what happens :)

[EOSBoy]

Hugh try attaching that Canon 10-22 on a 5D and see what happens :)
Don't do it! Doing so will open a portal into the depths of hell. :evil:

[HughScot]

Hugh try attaching that Canon 10-22 on a 5D and see what happens :)

Since it's an EF-S lens it wouldn't even fit so what would be the point. But my EF 35-135mm of over twenty years ago works fine on a 5D or a rebel.:D

[radiohead]

That is the point - with the Nikon the lens will mount and work.

[EOSBoy]

Hypothetical question:
If money wasn't an option(with the intention of making a smart purchase), which system would you invest in? (You don't have any DSLR system as of yet.)
Are you going to have faith in Canon's steady lens line? Or will you invest in Nikon's up to date camera models and wait for them to match their FX lenses with Canon's?

[René Damkot]

I'd pick the camera with the best user interface IMO.
When Nikon introduced the F5, I decided to get a Canon Eos1n...

I still don't like the UI of the D2 or D300, but it's workable. There are some point's I don't like about Canons UI as well.

I guess I'd give both a good look and feel over, then decide.

[tonylong]

I guess I'd give both a good look and feel over, then decide.

That's waaay too logical:)!

But then, without a bias one way or the other, it's the only real answer!

A year ago, Canon was leading the pack in both IQ and features. Today, Nikon deserves credit for their latest entries. A year from now...??? If you are starting from scratch and can afford the best you check out the current offerings and choose what will work best for you.

[EOSBoy]

If I had the money I'd still probably give the 5D a good look over. I don't think I would consider the 1Ds Mark III until I got hired for a serious photography job.
The 135L, 50L & 85L are extremely convincing lenses...But they are half the purchase...

The D700 and D3 have caught my eye because of their smart prices and a lot of their features are placed on easy to access turn dials. Unfortunately, their ergonomics and LCD quality surpasses Canon's. I have also heard good things about Matrix Metering as well. If a system allows me to focus on strictly composure with ease of use and similar lens line then I'd go for it. Nikon has been throwing some curve balls, hopefully the new 5D will hit a home run! Or I'll just have to cry myself to sleep every night, naked.