The gear race

[tim]

I've had my rebel for I guess around three months now, maybe a little more. Coming from an A70 it's a fantastic camera, much better than I thought it'd be. I read up around here, got some lenses and a flash and general gear, and started taking photos. It can take some pretty good photos, and right now I think the major limitation is me, not the camera.

Reading up here and on other forums there are loads of "I just got my 20D/1Ds Mk II/etc" threads, singing the praises of the gear. All the talk has made me tempted to get myself a 20D or even a 1D Mk II, even though the Rebel is perfectly adequate for my modest needs. The only areas where i'd see any improvement would be detail in large prints, lower noise in high iso, and a larger buffer. Sure, it might be nice, handy, and a cool toy, but will it help me take significantly better pictures? My thinking is probably not. The main thing it would give me is bragging rights and an air of self worth, from being able to afford a great camera.

The man maketh the photo, not the gear.

Just my $0.02 on the gearhead phenomenon.

[KennyG]

The older I get (oh, sorry, I am old already), the less I am drawn into the 'must have the lastest and best' rush. Not only that, but it is an expensive addiction for those that have it.

I smile when I read posts that ask questions like "If I get a 1Ds MK-II and three or four L lenses, will it be OK to take snaps of the kids playing in the yard". The world has moved on and cameras that were once only found in studios of professionals are now used to take pictures of a scruffy family cat. The shame is the standards of the photographer are not moving as quickly as the technology of the camera and the chequebook (checkbook for US readers) rules. That's life.

If you can afford to buy better, then why not if it makes you happier. I have a different take on equipment - will it pay for itself. If the answer is no then it does not matter how loud that credit card shouts to be taken out of the wallet, I have to give it a miss. That does not mean to say I don't drool over something I want but don't really need, I am almost human after all.

[lmelendez]

I got my rebel a few months ago too but after reading a few (actually, a lot) threads here I realized that I better learn to use the Rebel at 110% before I got my next camera (which will be a 20D for sure!). Of course I would like to have a bigger buffer, less noise and AI Servo in other modes other than sport... but I don't think any of those justify a new camera yet.

I decided to spend the money in lenses rather than a new camera....

Actually, before I get a new camera... I should buy (or read) more about composition, lighting, etc. There is so much to learn!!!

So, being a newbie as well... my suggestion would be... keep the rebel, save the money, learn your current gear and have fun. It means... I agree with you... the latest gear is not as important as understanding your current gear :)

Leo.

[Mills]

I think you have answered your own question. Not right now. I first purchased a 10D (still use it as a backup). I worked at getting better at photography and began to see areas of weakness in that camera that would be solved by another and was fortunate enough to be able to purchase that one. I knew when I needed more as will you.

For example have always liked photojournalist type photography and Buffer became a real problem. Problem solved with the 1D Mark II. Now, all of a sudden, I am being asked constantly to take family candids and portraits. So far, the 1D Mark II meets my needs just fine but I find that I like the resulting prints better from it than my 10D, thus the move made sense to me. (Really hope this portrait work does not force me to buy a 1Ds Mark II ;) ).

Bottom line is that I believe you will KNOW when you need to make the move up.

[Belmondo]

Unfortunately, after spending siginificant money in the pursuit, I've resigned myself to the fact that better equipment has not made me a better photographer. This is not altogether surprising; I've been looking for simple answers to complex problems all my life.

So far, in addition to the above sad truth regarding photography, I've learned the following:
1. A Mont Blanc pen will not improve my handwriting
2. Even on a Steinway piano, I can only play Chopsticks.
3. Scrambled eggs don't taste any better when prepared in professional-quality frying pans.
4. Expensive German cars did not make me a better driver.
5. Even a life membership at Gold's Gym will do nothing for my physique if I don't get out of my recliner, drive to their facility, and use the equipment.

The WHY of our desire to own the latest and greatest is a complex issue; no doubt some it is based on bragging rights, but also it is the expectation that somehow a better camera is going to compensate for shortcomings we have in our own abilities.

I am frequently reminded of the fact that some of the most brilliant work that has ever been posted by our fellow forum members has been done with point-and-shoot cameras. Conversely, there has been a lot of really mediocre work done on expensive SLRs. It really boils down to talent, familiarity with equipment, inspiration, and perspiration.

I am of the opinion that until we reach the point where we are missing shots because of our cameras' limitations, there is no need to upgrade equipment. Then, and only then, should we raise the bar equipment-wise. Our own limitations are really much more likely to impact the quality of our photos. The camera can only do so much.

Bottom line: throwing money at our frustrations is not a solution unless it addresses a specific hardware problem. If the shortcoming is us, all the money in the world is unlikely to help much.

[RJSorensen]

As a newer member, I can tell you that my jaw just dropped . . . when I saw the 'quality' that others were getting in their shots. This 'raised' the bar for me and has inspired me to 'try' new things and to mimic the professional looking craft of many here. When you can 'see' the quality of a photo taken with "L" glass and the "stuff" I am getting with my intro oem lens. I suppose for me the rule goes if you can tell a difference, then get it. If not, lol, save the cash.

Like wine for many . . . "Boones Farm or the finest from France" all tastes the same. Save the bucks until you can see, taste and or tell the difference, however if one can see those things that make a difference from better equipment and or craft skill(s), then I hope you and or even I am able to peruse this to our hearts content.

A shame that some of the finest photographic 'eyes' are trapped in the G camera bodies, this is true. For those of us who live out away from town and far from the cities . . . it is the internet that is our teacher, our supplier of goods and services. Some of the postings are not the best . . . but everyone starts somewhere and all can learn to improve. Hopefully we will all out grow our equipment and aspire to the best there is in all areas of the craft.

Nice post/thread Tim.

[jeric777]

be limitied by your ability, not by your equiptment.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Hey Tim,.
Each of the digital Cameras I have owned have been a fixture for over a year before I felt the urge to upgrade,. usually longer than that.

As you say,. it is when you feel you are at the point where the camera becomes the limiting factor,. as opposed to your own skills that the upgrade begins to make sense.

Following up on some of what Tom was saying,. go into the share photos archives and search for Don Ellis... or visit kleptography.com he uses a g1.

[schmoelzel]

Check out Pekka's Canon G1 gallery............now tell yourself that these were all taken with a 3MP advanced P & S camera...........buy better glass, study the art of composition, take many many many photos and you will be more than satisfied with your DRebel!!

[digibeet]

My best pictures ever were taken with an 25 year old canon with no exchangeable lenses (GIII QL17). I was just at the right time at the right place (with an adequate camera).
Photography is about recognizing a great picture before you use a camera and finally at the end of the creative process you shooooot. (Obviously I don’t like post processing)

Be sure having always a camera (digital or non digital) in reach and don’t hesitate to use it.

[Akreager]

There is definately a diminishing return on investment. I have Nikon D70 with a couple pro lenses. I recently added a 1D MarkII. The best pic I have ever taken or will ever take on the MII will probably be no better than the best of the best D70 pics - particularly given correct exposure etc. and excellent post processing. The D70 is very capable of producing professional results. I still use the D70 and will continue. The difference between the two is how many keepers I get, and how long it takes me to generate them. I get more spot on perfect ressults out of the MII with much less post processing especially in low light situations. Since my intent is to sell pics, my investment has paid off.

That said I have fallen into the trap big time - I bought a $35,000 wake board boat to make me a better wakeboarder and got perhaps 10% more air and landed 10% more tricks. My old boat was paid off. I now have an injured shoulder and a torn retina as a result and make monthly payments on a boat I now can not use. so I guess you were completely right after all.

[Akreager]

I felt compelled to add another comment. What most newbies do not realize is consumer glass when stopped down can be every bit as good as pro glass. For example - the Nikon 70-300F4-5.6ED makes extreamly good immages at F8-F16 between the range of 120 and 250mm - Really really hard to tell the diference between any other lens. If you have time to set up on a tripod, not be able to stop action, and then spend the time to blur the background in Photoshop You have a winner for under $400. If time is money or you have a spouse that would like more of you time.....

[queenbee288]

Well, as a newbie I for one am glad for that someone felt the need to upgrade becuase I got to buy his slightly used rebel at a good price! LOL

[Citizensmith]

For everyday photography the body makes very little difference. It's only when you get in very demanding situations that you'd actually need a 1D Mk2 or something.

If you are (or are learning to be) a good photographer you talent at seeing an eye catching image will transcend the difference between those extra two megapixels, or a bit of corner softness. I teach photography classes, and generally I'm the best equipped there as the people attending are just getting into the subject. That doesn't mean I always take all the best photos as someone with a 3mpxl P&S and a great eye for a shot will get some wonderful results.

As others have said, the photographer creates the limits much more than the equipment.

[Ajay213]

Very well said Belmondo, very well said.

The single biggest thing that seperates great photos from simple pictures is the person pushing the shutter button, not the equipment attached to the shutter button. Plain and simple. Sharper lenses, bigger buffers, more megapixels, etc, etc can all help make a great photo even better, but it will not make a mediocre picture a great photo.

You want a night and day difference in the quality of your photos, put the camera down and find some good photography classes/workshops in your area, enroll and learn. Learn what every function that you use on a camera does and why you would want to use it, learn how it effects other settings on the camera, learn how changing one setting will effect the exposure of the photo in relation to everything else, etc, etc. Learn some of the "rule of thumb" type stuff, for instance if you have no idea what the Sunny 16 rule is, then open another browser window and google it right now. The next biggest improvement in your photos will come from simply taking LOTS of photos with what you learned above.

Finally, we have all seen great photos, either in a photography books, on display, in magazines, etc, etc. I bet if you took a sample of the equipment those photos were taken with, you'd be shocked at how "low-end" some of the equipment was (not all of it, but I bet a suprising amount).

Andrew

[aliflack]

what makes a good photo?

I'd say its mostly down to the capturing the subject matter in a way that tells a story or generates emotions in the viewer - whether that be through lighting, exposure, depth of field or composition. Whatever allows you to isolate the subject and tell that story, create the mood, that is what helps make the photo.

Some captures simply cannot be done without lenses with a aperture of 1.8 or a reach of 400mm - to that extent, your equipment defines boundaries of your photography

[Tom W]

Very well said Belmondo, very well said.

The single biggest thing that seperates great photos from simple pictures is the person pushing the shutter button, not the equipment attached to the shutter button. Plain and simple. Sharper lenses, bigger buffers, more megapixels, etc, etc can all help make a great photo even better, but it will not make a mediocre picture a great photo.

You want a night and day difference in the quality of your photos, put the camera down and find some good photography classes/workshops in your area, enroll and learn. Learn what every function that you use on a camera does and why you would want to use it, learn how it effects other settings on the camera, learn how changing one setting will effect the exposure of the photo in relation to everything else, etc, etc. Learn some of the "rule of thumb" type stuff, for instance if you have no idea what the Sunny 16 rule is, then open another browser window and google it right now. The next biggest improvement in your photos will come from simply taking LOTS of photos with what you learned above.

Finally, we have all seen great photos, either in a photography books, on display, in magazines, etc, etc. I bet if you took a sample of the equipment those photos were taken with, you'd be shocked at how "low-end" some of the equipment was (not all of it, but I bet a suprising amount).

Andrew

Yep - learn, and apply. Learn and apply. Repeat.

As for the equipment, it is a hobby into itself for some. And that's OK too - its their prerogative.

[robekert]

You will know when it is time. 4 yrs. ago I had a Kodak point & shoot. 3yrs. ago I bought a G3. 2yrs. ago I bought a Digital Rebel. 1yr. ago I got a 1DMkII. I now do not feel the upgrade itch. Where do I go from here, 1DsMkII...no thanks. With each upgrade I bought more capability. I am not a pro and I do not have to shoot to make a living and if the gear sits unused for a month I feel no guilt.

What I do have now is a set up that will not hold me back in any way. When I shoot the kids playing sports the gear is up to it. Sweeping landscapes, the gear is up to it. Portraits, the gear is up to it. I, on the other hand lag behind my gear. With some work I will be up to the task someday. Every once and a while I surprise myself.

We live in very interesting times. This board affords us exposue to many talented people and vast amounts of information. I imagine that 30yrs. ago if I walked into a reputable camera seller and tried to buy "Pro" equipment I would have been talked out of it and came home with something that the salesman thought was within my capabilities.

Life is short. Eat drink and be merry. If no one is hurt by your actions, and you break no laws.....who cares. The only one you have to make peace with some day is your God. Buy whatever you want you do not have to be a member or get a sponsor to join the 1DsMkII society. $8000 and you are in.
Cheers,
Rob

[cactusclay]

I really like and try to live by the frase "Keep it simple stupid" unfortunately when trying to make a living at this stuff I need to have back ups, otherwise, I would just have one camera and a couple of lenses. I think the rebel is a fine camera. I've owned mine since they first came out over a year ago and like I've said before I even like the feel of it in my hand better that my 20D and if a guy keeps the thing awake and ready, you don't have to worry about the 3 sec. start up time. I think that good sharp contrasty glass is important to me, but I don't think a fortune has to be spent on it either. I used to think that Zeiss and Leitz glass was the best, but that was before the days of the Internet and all the test sites they have now. It seems that Canon primes are pretty darn close to that quality now, and at a fraction of the cost. I still miss my M-6 with a 35 mm on it, but I like the instant gratification of digial. Keep it simple.

[Persian-Rice]

I don't get it, sometimes I think this whole board is about showing off more then it is about photography. Sometimes people will never learn, and some will. There is no problem with listing your stuff, thats fine, but posting a new thread about every five bucks you spend isn't.

I don't create or post in those "I got so n' so" threads, it's really pointless. Maybe people are trying to boost their ego's to compensate for their lack of photographic skill, beats me.

I am naturally very good at four or five things in this life of mine(motor racing, weightlifting, soccer, hockey, and the arts) and one thing I learned at a very early age was that there will always be something or someone better. For me, someone will be faster, stronger, quicker, or have a better eye. You got to live with that. It's the same with your equipment. You have a 10D? well someone has a 20D, have a 20D? someone has a 1D, have a 1D? someone has a 1Ds, have a 1Ds? someone has a 20K digi med-format. It will never end.

Your work does the talking, not your equipment.

[mdr]

...someone got a 1Ds Mk II and someone got a Nikon... Nikon rules...

On a serious note, what else do you expect on a gear forum but gear fever?

If you're interested in photography check out the subject forums :lol:.

[DionM]

For me its coming from an entry level film camera (EOS300) and consumer glass ... I did it cheap once, but not this time. I know the limitations of entry level bodies and my EOS300 frustrated me many times. I looked at the specs (in particular, the flash x-sync) and skipped the 300D due to that (plus lack of MLU). So the 20D was a shoe-in.

I have 'L' fever because I can see the difference. But I know now to buy my lenses with more selectivity. I bought my consumer glass with too much of a budget in mind. I am kicking myself for buying my 100-300 when the 70-200 f4 was only a few bucks more. Now I know better.

It also helps I am earning more and a little more financially secure these days, so I can 'invest' in my hobbies better :) Not over the top by any means, but better than what I had.

[KevC]

Well I just got my rebel less than a month ago. And I haven't really gotten around to playing with it. However, the only thing I really don't like is the 1.6x crop factor (I want wide angle and fishy!) and the fact that the buffer is not so big and doesn't write to the card as fast (3 quick pics in RAW, and it takes about 10seconds to finish).

But other than that, I'm sure I'm gonna keep this camera for a LONNNG time :D

[KennyG]

I'll chip in with another point. Just be careful when you tell someone that their camera is just fine and they need to become a better photographer to get the right results from it. Some models have limitations that can hinder what he/she is trying to achieve, the same with lenses.

Do not assume everyone is trying to produce photographic 'art' and then apply that criteria when advising them on what equipment is ideal for them. Learn to ask questions before you give answers. Some people need a technical solution not a lecture on artistic talent.

[Belmondo]

I'll chip in with another point. Just be careful when you tell someone that their camera is just fine and they need to become a better photographer to get the right results from it. Some models have limitations that can hinder what he/she is trying to achieve, the same with lenses.

Do not assume everyone is trying to produce photographic 'art' and then apply that criteria when advising them on what equipment is ideal for them. Learn to ask questions before you give answers. Some people need a technical solution not a lecture on artistic talent.

Kenny. I agree with what you say, and chances are that if a person recognizes that their hardware is holding them back, they indeed are ready to move up to the next level. I just think there are a lot of people who feel better eqipment (read: more expensive) will automatically guarante better photos. I just hate to see them basing a significant financial decision on unrealistic expectations.

Think about the number of times people have moved from a P&S up to an DSLR, only to complain that the images are soft. Maybe they weren't really good candidates for equipment of that level.

[robekert]

Some people need a technical solution not a lecture on artistic talent.

I agree Ken,
Are you (Ken) supposed to go to the track with a point and shoot camera and expect to get acceptable results? It reminds me of the Digital Rebel TV commercial that ran before last year's Superbowl. They had this guy in the stands with the Rebel+Kit lens getting shots that looked like a shooter on the sidelines with a 1DMkII and a 400 2.8.

I have been involved in the "Arts" since the 1980s. Unfortunately you cannot teach artistic vision. I once saw someone's Signature Line that said "Show me the model of piano that lets me play like Mozart"

I don't think anyone is showing off when they talk about thier gear. What I usually do is click on their website. I then know to take them seriously or not. Isn't this all in good clean fun?
Cheers,
Rob

[Mogwyth]

I think my sig says most of what I think on this subject. But I will add one more thing the answer is not about buying the best as some would advocate but about buying what's best for you.

[tim]

On the other hand, I like toys, I can afford them, and the higher up cameras are great toys and have some very useful features, so why not buy one? So long as people don't fool themselves into thinking better gear = better photographer, there's no harm in it.

Will I upgrade? Probably not. But if I do it won't be because I think it'll make me a better photographer, it'll be for the toy value, and the increased chances of getting that lucky shot that a better camera sometimes provides.

[Persian-Rice]

Ken, that is one major part of the problem.

What gets me fuming is when some guy posts that he wants he to buy a 75-300 and the next response is, "dont buy that, get the 100-400". That really really bugs me. To a pro or really serious amateur, the 100-400 is fine, but to the the average joe it's absolute overkill. Lets get something straight, someone who is considering a 75-300 is probably also unaware of the 100-400 because it is way out of their budget, but then they are sweet talked into buying something they don't need.

There aren't many of us who will say, go buy that, its alright for you. What kind of technical advice is that?? It's the same as convincing your 85 year old grandmother who drives a K car 40kmh in a 60 zone to buy a Ferrari F40 because it's made out of carbon fiber and is red.

Cheers

[KennyG]

I just think there are a lot of people who feel better eqipment (read: more expensive) will automatically guarante better photos. I just hate to see them basing a significant financial decision on unrealistic expectations.

I couldn't agree with you more. A quick visit over to DPR (after a few beers to dull the senses) demonstrates what you are saying, no matter which of the equipment forums you browse. From what I see most high-end (read pro) equipment is now bought by people who do think that getting an $8,000 camera is going to make them picture perfect out of the box. They soon find out it doesn't and then they start asking questions about their buying decision.

I am in a fortunate position where my decisions can be made on a purely commercial basis. Do I need it to do the job and will it pay for itself. Simple really. For the person trying to make their way in photography it is an absolute minefield with 100 different answers for every question they have. The problem also lies with those answering the questions. They do not ask questions themselves before giving the answers.

[mikesd]

I cannot wait until the 20D replacement is out as my last two bodies have been purchased used while everyone was making the rush to the new models. Funny thing is that although having a 10D and a 300D my best capture of 2004 was taken on my wifes A-80. Go figure.

[darkdrakon]

well I just spent 2500.00 on new gear (ouch) I bought new lenses and kept the 10D as it's good enough for my needs I may look at a new body in two years as I am all spent out at the moment :-)

[RockOne]

I don' think I'll upgrade my 300D until it dies, and I need to replace it. Then I'll go on to the 20D or it's replacement. Don't think I'll need to upgrade to a 1D. I will spend a bit more on lenses in the meantime (100-400 next :-)

It probably wouldn't be a good idea for a wealthy amateur to go from a P&S or from little photographic experience to a 1D without something in between. Otherwise they most likely will end up getting poor quality pictures, become discouraged and end up with a very expensive paperweight.

Its the same reason why young divers in V8 cars figure prominantly in road accident statistics. The car is just too much, and doesn't match the experience level.

[eosster]

So far, in addition to the above sad truth regarding photography, I've learned the following:
1. A Mont Blanc pen will not improve my handwriting
2. Even on a Steinway piano, I can only play Chopsticks.
3. Scrambled eggs don't taste any better when prepared in professional-quality frying pans.
4. Expensive German cars did not make me a better driver.
5. Even a life membership at Gold's Gym will do nothing for my physique if I don't get out of my recliner, drive to their facility, and use the equipment.


Sure it does, Joking of course and I agree.

[cricket]

When I bought my 1Ds MkII, I came to this forum after searching the web to find a place with people who were interesting to post with, and who could/would share knowledge with me, me with them.

I think it is a little strange to hear people going on about how much I may have spent on my digital gear! That was not what I had come here to hear. My boyfriend said it read like pen** envy. Well, I don't know much about THAT, but it was something I was willing to overlook, as most folks here are very kind, funny, and helpful.

It's exciting to dream about something and then get it. Only natural to want to share it with people who actually understand that thrill of getting a new piece of equipment that will solve something in your photographic endeavors. When my boyfriend gets a new set of slicks, or some tool, he likes to share it with his racing buddies; because they share the excitement with him. I try... So does he. ;)

I guess if you don't want to read those posts, don't. I like to sometimes, because I like to cheer the person on. Photography is definitely a potential "Mine is bigger than yours" hobby/profession, but it really comes down to doing what you have passion for. For some, getting the best gear they can is the passion!

For me, I wanted a camera that made switching to digital worth it (to me) in terms of quality comparable to the medium format I have used all these years. I already knew that, like my computers, the value would go down. But I still use my old (4 yrs.) Mac with just some simple upgrading. I hope this camera will last me a looooooong time, as I'll probably never have another chance to buy something of this caliber. I didn't charge it.

My 2 cents (+ a lot more :lol: )

[tim]

I didn't start this thread to complain about people who can afford good gear, quite the contrary. My point was this place seems to encourage people to get better and more expensive gear, even though it won't always help with their photography. I could go out and buy a 1Ds Mk II with whatever lenses I want tomorrow no problem, but it won't help my photography much at all, so I won't. I'll upgrade at some point, when I find my equipment limiting me, or the new gear offers me a large advantage over my current gear.

[Eric DeCastro]

i'm gonna be happy with my 10d until it breaks.

[eosster]

When I bought my 1Ds MkII, I came to this forum after searching the web to find a place with people who were interesting to post with, and who could/would share knowledge with me, me with them.

I think it is a little strange to hear people going on about how much I may have spent on my digital gear! That was not what I had come here to hear. My boyfriend said it read like pen** envy. Well, I don't know much about THAT, but it was something I was willing to overlook, as most folks here are very kind, funny, and helpful.

It's exciting to dream about something and then get it. Only natural to want to share it with people who actually understand that thrill of getting a new piece of equipment that will solve something in your photographic endeavors. When my boyfriend gets a new set of slicks, or some tool, he likes to share it with his racing buddies; because they share the excitement with him. I try... So does he. ;)

I guess if you don't want to read those posts, don't. I like to sometimes, because I like to cheer the person on. Photography is definitely a potential "Mine is bigger than yours" hobby/profession, but it really comes down to doing what you have passion for. For some, getting the best gear they can is the passion!

For me, I wanted a camera that made switching to digital worth it (to me) in terms of quality comparable to the medium format I have used all these years. I already knew that, like my computers, the value would go down. But I still use my old (4 yrs.) Mac with just some simple upgrading. I hope this camera will last me a looooooong time, as I'll probably never have another chance to buy something of this caliber. I didn't charge it.

My 2 cents (+ a lot more :lol: )
Hmmm and you thought, their talking about you? Where did you get that notion..... and I didn't think tim was refering to anyone.

[22littlereasons]

Yeah, I'm on the talent over gear side of the fence. The other day I was out on a shoot and to my surprize there was another shooter there. Let me preface by saying the venues I usually shoot at, amateur and high schools sports. I'm usually the only one there taking pictures.

But on this day, there was somebody else. We started to converse and compare equipment, and I must say I felt like a young boy in a mens shower. Every thing he had was newer, longer, and bigger! But soon I realized this was a matter of more money than sense and that this poor fellow didn't understand his equipment or photographic theory.

I ended up sharing some knowledge with him for which he was grateful as I'm always oblidged to assist anyone in enjoying photography. This is not the first time I've seen this. I say with the right talent and experience you can always take a good picture even with a disposable camera. I've even read threads in these forums where people rationalize getting a camera upgrade because the newer camera turns on faster. Geez!

Getting all sweaty with envy, or caught up in one-upsmanship over a few megapixels does nothing but provide an excuse for inexperience or a lack of talent. Just keep shooting, reading, and learning and I think you'll find yourself worrying less about gear and just having fun shooting stuff.

[RichardtheSane]

I've even read threads in these forums where people rationalize getting a camera upgrade because the newer camera turns on faster. Geez!


Actually that was (albeit low) in my list of reasons that I chose to upgrade.
Why is that a problem? A slow startup time can cause shots to be missed and I know it has on more than one occasion.

That said I have recently upgraded because I was missing shots due to limitations with my equipment. I no longer miss these shots so the upgrade was worthwhile.

[Quizzmo]

I have a drawer full of film based Canon bodies. Started with a EF to a AE1 to an A1 ripped off and got another one to a F1n to a T90 (best manual focus body Canon ever made) which got ripped off and got another one.

Never needed AF until I started to shoot kids. Went slowly there and only used an EOS 630 and started buying EF glass. That was all I needed.

Went digital with Kodak and that served me well and eventually got a 10D and bought some L glass. I'll probably get a 20D in the fall.

I started my daughter off with my old EF and she quickly moved to my T90. Now she uses the Kodak and has no problem working with her images in Photoshop CS. She is now asking for the 10D occasionally... Impressive for a 13 year old!

The most important thing is to carry the camera everywhere… you never know when you will be in the right place at the right time with the right light. Like the light in the middle of a huge thunderstorm near sunset when the golden amber light hits the foreground and the sky and clouds are dark grey in the middle of Montana…

[KennyG]

I say with the right talent and experience you can always take a good picture even with a disposable camera. I've even read threads in these forums where people rationalize getting a camera upgrade because the newer camera turns on faster. Geez!

Not being disrespectful here, but this type of judgement again is part of the problem. A wildlife or sports photographer can not take great images with a disposable, unless they start making them with 300mm+ lenses. Have you ever tried to switch lenses or CF cards in a hurry when the action is fast and furious, that's the time when you really appreciate fast switch on. It comes back to what I have been saying, the right tools for the job and talent can't always make up for the wrong ones. I worked with a fixed focal length B&W film (my choice) Leica camera for 10 years, but what I did then is very different from what I do now. My cameras and lenses have changed to meet what I need over the years.

To Cricket, you have made the right move for the right reasons. Coming from MF there was only one way to go if you wanted to use 35mm and retain the same level of quality.

[RJSorensen]

I like this thread . . . as well as the thoughts shared. Diverse in 'spin' yet true to the authors basic passion. Interest in photography plus good enough gear to get'er done, equals passion in the hobby for many. But there are also those whom get paid for their shots and thus are in much a whole new world. These two points may perhaps overlap . . . but will never be the same.

Some folks have boats and or RV's and etc. et al. Others have camera gear and such. It is all good, strokes for folks as I often get to say. What floats your boat. As long as one helps others where and when they may and does harm to none, we are doing good. Kindness and good manners are never out of style . . . there is no accounting for taste, however.

[tim]

I hope this thread helps people focus on photos and technique: to me there seems to be too much emphasis on gear here. I like toys as much as the next guy, probably more, but I think we should focus on what helps us take great pictures - and to me that's the person, not the gear.

[sparker1]

Interesting thread, for sure. I loved my old P & S Sony. A 10x optical zoom, CD storage to keep originals at less than a penny each, pretty good quality images (some exceptions), and only one piece to haul around in my travels and hikes. Trying to photograph my grand-daughters was frustrating, as they won't be still for a photo. Then I became interested in animals, and was again frustrated with slow response and poor quality in low light. It was a tough decision to move up to an SLR, but I'm glad I did. It will take the rest of my life learning to fully use what I have. I can afford a better camera, but do I have time to learn added features? I'd rather spend my time learning to take better pictures.

[Mikesht]

As a newer member, I can tell you that my jaw just dropped . . . when I saw the 'quality' that others were getting in their shots. This 'raised' the bar for me and has inspired me to 'try' new things and to mimic the professional looking craft of many here. When you can 'see' the quality of a photo taken with "L" glass and the "stuff" I am getting with my intro oem lens. I suppose for me the rule goes if you can tell a difference, then get it. If not, lol, save the cash.

Like wine for many . . . "Boones Farm or the finest from France" all tastes the same. Save the bucks until you can see, taste and or tell the difference, however if one can see those things that make a difference from better equipment and or craft skill(s), then I hope you and or even I am able to peruse this to our hearts content.

A shame that some of the finest photographic 'eyes' are trapped in the G camera bodies, this is true. For those of us who live out away from town and far from the cities . . . it is the internet that is our teacher, our supplier of goods and services. Some of the postings are not the best . . . but everyone starts somewhere and all can learn to improve. Hopefully we will all out grow our equipment and aspire to the best there is in all areas of the craft.

Nice post/thread Tim.

.................................................. ....................................
I am sadden by reading posts like this. What you seems to be dont understand is that photography is not about making a picture of your neighbour's fence as sharp and as clear as possible. Photography is about conveying and evoking of emotions, and untill you understand that, you will always be taking a beautifull snaphots of nothing, pretty but meaningless, there are millions of them made already. Sharpest picutere is not necessarily a best picture, I hope you will understand it with time.
Of course, if you are making family portraits in a studio for living, you want the sharpest lens so you can do your job in most efficient way. But it does not mean that you would not do just about the same thing with a bit lesser lens- and more efforts, which is of course more time.
But if we are talking about fine art photography, and to me it's te only kind worth doing as a hobby, your advantage in lens disappear. In fact, sometimes you will want to take a grainy dim shots, and you dont need fastest lens for that. And so on and so forth.
Ken Rockwell has an excellent article on this subject- why your lens do not matter, your vision matters.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm

Sorry for my broken English- it's not my first language.
I hope I conveyed the message, though.
Good luck.

[Cash--]

Reminds me of fight club

"You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fscking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world."

could add......you're not your photo gear

[rfreschner]

to me there seems to be too much emphasis on gear here.

No offense Tim, but isn't that the purpose of the 'Equipment Talk' section?

Rick

[eosster]

.................................................. ....................................
I am sadden by reading posts like this. What you seems to be dont understand is that photography is not about making a picture of your neighbour's fence as sharp and as clear as possible. Photography is about conveying and evoking of emotions, and untill you understand that, you will always be taking a beautifull snaphots of nothing, pretty but meaningless, there are millions of them made already. Sharpest picutere is not necessarily a best picture, I hope you will understand it with time.
Of course, if you are making family portraits in a studio for living, you want the sharpest lens so you can do your job in most efficient way. But it does not mean that you would not do just about the same thing with a bit lesser lens- and more efforts, which is of course more time.
But if we are talking about fine art photography, and to me it's te only kind worth doing as a hobby, your advantage in lens disappear. In fact, sometimes you will want to take a grainy dim shots, and you dont need fastest lens for that. And so on and so forth.
Ken Rockwell has an excellent article on this subject- why your lens do not matter, your vision matters.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm

Sorry for my broken English- it's not my first language.
I hope I conveyed the message, though.
Good luck.

No offense, Ken Rockwell is in his little world of himself as king....and he is one side towards Nikon and trash all other manufactuers as toys.

[cricket]

Hmmm and you thought, their talking about you? Where did you get that notion..... and I didn't think tim was refering to anyone.
No, I didn't think Tim was referring to ME! I don't post each piece of new gear I get. Though I don't mind when folks do. This section of the forum IS about gear, after all!

I'm relating my experience on this forum. When I first posted and I shared my gear choice and folks went on and on about my gear choice, was I for real, was I really a GIRL!? I wasn't trying to show off or anything. I just have loved photography for a long time, and found some people to share that passion with. In the digital world.

I remember your post as saying "Maybe, it's time to let it go and just welcome her...that would be nice." Thanks for that.

Thanks, KennyG for your understanding of my choice.

[eosster]

No, I didn't think Tim was referring to ME! I don't post each piece of new gear I get. Though I don't mind when folks do. This section of the forum IS about gear, after all!

I'm relating my experience on this forum. When I first posted and I shared my gear choice and folks went on and on about my gear choice, was I for real, was I really a GIRL!? I wasn't trying to show off or anything. I just have loved photography for a long time, and found some people to share that passion with. In the digital world.

I remember your post as saying "Maybe, it's time to let it go and just welcome her...that would be nice." Thanks for that.

Thanks, KennyG for your understanding of my choice.

My apology for misunderstanding Cricket, I guess this is a gear forum after all.

[tim]

No offense Tim, but isn't that the purpose of the 'Equipment Talk' section?

Of course it is. Have you noticed though that the gear forum typically has about twice as many people viewing it as the rest of the site combined? A lot of people get carried away with the gear instead of "focusing" (no pun intended) on the photography.

[pcasciola]

A lot of people get carried away with the gear instead of "focusing" (no pun intended) on the photography.You say that like it's a bad thing. :D

What's wrong with being into the gear, and the technical aspects of photography? Exchanging all this knowledge is the best thing about these forums. Since I got my 20D, it's amazing how much knowledge of Canon EOS gear I have acquired in such a short amount of time through these forums.

Besides, it's too damn cold to go outside right now and take pictures.

[rfreschner]

A lot of people get carried away with the gear instead of "focusing" (no pun intended) on the photography.

Tim, I guess my point is that if it's the gear that excites them, isn't that their perogative? Not everyone who visits these forums is going to be a great photographer or even want to be. If someone wants to spend $5000 on equipment and use it like a Point and Shoot, who is it harming?

Personally, I've found this section (and the folks in it) to be very helpful as I've been trying to decide on new equipment. And, I've shelled out a bunch of money for the camera and lenses that are probably more than I'll ever need. But hey, sometimes you just make your decision based on what you want rather than what you really need. Did I do it to impress anyone? No way. The only person I need to answer to is myself (and my better half while I'm spending the retirement fund). :lol:

Just another point of view.

Rick

[tim]

You say that like it's a bad thing. :D

What's wrong with being into the gear, and the technical aspects of photography? Exchanging all this knowledge is the best thing about these forums. Since I got my 20D, it's amazing how much knowledge of Canon EOS gear I have acquired in such a short amount of time through these forums.

Besides, it's too damn cold to go outside right now and take pictures.

There's nothing wrong with it. I'm an engineer, I like my gear, my toys, and I plan to get more of it, preferably sooner than later. I just won't justify the purchases to myself as making my photos better.

I ran into one issue with my 300D yesterday: the buffer's too small. I was taking RAW water drop photos in quick succession and I often had to stop and wait for the camera to write the images to the card. A higher frame rate would have helped me out too, as I was relying on dumb luck and large numbers of photos to get the photo I wanted, as I don't have a sound trigger or anything similar.

[rfreschner]

I just won't justify the purchases to myself as making my photos better.

I'm with you on that. My justification is purely I want it and I don't want to wait any longer for it.

Rick

[tim]

Well I want a 20D, but i'm not sure it's worth the money to upgrade, to me. Still thinking i'll wait for the 30D.

[pcasciola]

I ran into one issue with my 300D yesterday: the buffer's too small. I was taking RAW water drop photos in quick succession and I often had to stop and wait for the camera to write the images to the card. A higher frame rate would have helped me out too, as I was relying on dumb luck and large numbers of photos to get the photo I wanted, as I don't have a sound trigger or anything similar.Those are the exact two reasons I went for the 20D instead of the 300D, but only because I like to shoot sports. If it wasn't for sports, the 300D would have been my choice. I had to skimp on lenses to get the 20D when I finally made up my mind. In your case, if you only get stuck waiting for the camera once in a while you may not need to upgrade. Just use JPEG when you need a larger buffer.

But, in certain situations, like fast moving team sports (football/soccer/etc.), the gear can make a huge difference in the results. With my 20D I have AI Servo, and with 5fps and the huge JPEG buffer I get a lot of good shots during a game. With a 300D you may not get as many keepers without AI Servo, and may miss some plays waiting for the buffer to empty. And with the 1D Mk II you will get even more keepers than with the 20D. I chose the 20D because that's what I could afford, but I will upgrade to a 1D Mk II as soon as I can afford to.

[jfred]

I want to see if Quizmodo will do me a deal out of his drawer of manual-focus kit! I totally regret trading in my T70 and two decent lenses for the EOS 300/Speedlite 420 and Sigma lens combination. We never really "clicked", and it was a huge discouragement to my photography.

Some "wow" moments with the A80 (pause for audience mirth) and my old AE1 with the 50mm 1.8 lens have restored my faith in photography.

I should have looked harder at the 300D, and perhaps used the leftover dollars to go into the lens fund... but... I was biased against the 300 name, and got bitten by the upgrade bug (which is a strange beast!)

i'd better get practising with my 1 week old 20D to try and restore some sort of reputation!

[tim]

I'm still tempted to get a 20D. The only real advantage to me is a larger buffer, which I only need occasionally, so it'd probably be a bit of a waste of money. Hmmm.

Fred, I have an A70, they're reasonably good P&S cameras. Once you go SLR though you'll never go back, but having a P&S around is handy for times you can't take a big camera and a bag full of gear.

[Dr Bird]

Here we go again , do we need the latest-greatest the $$$$$ answer is NO
do you want 8.2 megapixels for better print quality the answer to this one is
YES , I have owned the EOS 1-D Mark II , I couldn't stand the controls , I sent
it back , I now use the EOS 20D . on this camera the print quality is as good as
the EOS 1-D Mark II , does it Auto-Focus as good as the 1-D Mark II = NO , so
if you do fast focusing type of work go for the 1-D Mark II , if you do not need
A FAST camera go for the 20D .

[Lesmac]

Concentrate on equipment and you'll take technically good photographs. Concentrate on seeing the light's magic colors and your images will stir the soul. - Jack Dykinga

Les McLean

http://lesmclean.photoblink.com/

[wibbly]

1. A Mont Blanc pen will not improve my handwriting
2. Even on a Steinway piano, I can only play Chopsticks.
3. Scrambled eggs don't taste any better when prepared in professional-quality frying pans.
4. Expensive German cars did not make me a better driver.
5. Even a life membership at Gold's Gym will do nothing for my physique if I don't get out of my recliner, drive to their facility, and use the equipment.

...

I am of the opinion that until we reach the point where we are missing shots because of our cameras' limitations, there is no need to upgrade equipment.

But it's not really about limitations is it? It's about

The joy of using something that's supposed to be of good design.

Overcoming "PPT" (Post Purchase Trauma), so we like to help justify all those $$$ we spent by talking about it ;-)
John

[cactusclay]

Speaking for myself, then again speaking from watching others, I have to say that most of the gear race comes from people being bored. They figure out a way not to have to go out and create something, buy convincing themselves-ourselves-that the reason we are lagging is that we need something new, then we can go out with a renewed confidence to create something. It might happen for awhile, but then we get bored again and it's easier to sit in front of this computer screen and shop, then it is to go out and take pictures or mow the lawn with the old mower. I remember twenty years or so ago, when the F3 was making it's debut and I used to sleep with the brosure next to my bed, so I could pick it up at night and in the morning and read about the titanium shutter plane and space age materials that were used in it's state of the art development. Well I finally got one and it didn't do a dang thing for my picture taking, in fact when it took a crap a couple of years later, I went back to the FM2 and realized that I really preferred an all mechancanical small camera without all the space age crap that shorts out in a couple of years. The point being that if we realize that most of the time -not all- we are just bored and looking for something new to divert our attention. Get out and shoot some pictures or mow the law/shovel some snow and let that damn computer collect some dust-myself included.

[Redbird_xo]

Whether or not to get a 20D, ID Mark II or 1Ds Mark II, or some other creatures, how about going to the fridge to grab a beer or two. I can see this thread going for a long long time...

By the way, I currently drink Boddingtons and Kil Kenny for their creamy first sip. But I heard good things about Foster, Steller, Bud and Tsing Tao. What do you guys think?

My -ve $0.02.

[Andy_T]

Redbird,

take a look at this thread and ask your question there ... :lol:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53775&highlight=booze

Best regards,
Andy