Flash brackets and wirless flash advice

[Akreager]

I entered a huge response to a simple question earlier and then decided I should post it as a new thread. I come to this forum regularly now for advice/ideas and thought I would share some of the expertise I have developed around Nikon's and Canon's new wireless multi flash systems. They are truely amazing. They do not replace studio strobes as they might have you believe, but they make it posible to get in and out in situations where time does not allow a full set up. They are extreamly portable. They also shine when strong ambient (natural, tungsten, fluorecent) are present or desired for certain moods/effect since color correcting gels are a snap to use (just set the right WB and shoot in raw in case you forget).

her it is.....the more interesting stuff is at the bottom.

I think it is best when possible to use a fast lens and available light....that said flash is often neccessary. I agree with some of what was said above and disagree with other parts. My two cents is as follows:

High eliminates some shadows behind your subject, eliminates redeye, and adds some dimension to the face. For me center of my flash mounted softbox (see below) is about a foot or so above the lens axis.

I like to get the flash high per above and off center (not straight above the lens) by about six to eight inches (off center adds a little more dimension to the face and allows you to use a very simple L shaped bracket ($30). It still works when you go verticle. It is now 12 inches off center and 6 inches above lens axis. The only trick is getting use to rotating clockwise instead of the usual counter clockwise.

Off center does not hide the shadow behind as well as on axis flash so I soften it by using a dome clipped on the front of the flash AND either a Westcott 5X8 folding Micro Appolo soft box ($35)or a 12X16 folding soft box from Photoflex ($100 with the hardware). Besides softening the shadows behind the subject it also softens the shadows on the subjects face and makes them look much better.

I use the 12X16 PF as often as possible, but it sometimes intimidates or attracts attention so I often set it up (5-10 min), stage it, start with the Westcott (less than one min), and use it after the ice is broken.

May sound like some effort but the results can not be beat. I got my first 3 wedding jobs because I used this set up for candids throughout the weekend at my brother in law's wedding. I was not the actuall Photographer, but the bride liked my stuff much better than his and reccomended me to her freinds. They obviously did too since they hired me.

If you get the right type of bracket you can take the camera off real quick and stick the bracket onto a light stand (less than one min), put the camera on a tripod real quick (less than one min), pull another flash out of your pocket and wala...a two flash system. have someone hold a white reflector for fill and put the second flash high on a second stand and use as a hair light. Unfold an 8x16 collapsable Muslin backdrop and lean it against the wall and you have a set up that comes close (no it does not equal) to a studio portrait set up. I have gotten good at this and can do the set up in less than five minutes while I am talking to people. all the stuff folds and stores in the a camera bage and one small light stand bag (the background colapses to about a 3 foot flat circle). With Nikon and Canon you can use the camera to meter and set the flash exposure using their i-ttl wireless capabilites (each has their advantages and disadvantages but both oare great). It really is amazing how well it works after the learning curve is over.

For Canon

$1000 for two 580EX and a wirless controler ST-2
100 for two light stands
135 for the Photoflex and Westcot softboxes
140 for the collapsable background
50 for two swivle mount light stand to hot shoe adaptors
30 L flash bracket........................................... ......$1450 for an amazing portable system. You can even add gels for effect or to balance abient light color temperature if ambient light is strong flourecent or tungsten. just tape them over the flash head and set the right white balance.

Maybe more information than some want but it took me a long time to get to this point and I wanted to share. If anyone wants more info they can e-mail me at andy.kreager@equistar.com
Andy K
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif

[jbradc]

I use almost that exact setup, but I use 2 PhotoFlex RUT White Satin Umbrellas with Removable Black Covers.
They convert from a bounce Umbrella which produces contrast to a "shoot through" Umbrella which produces soft light.

[DaveG]

I entered a huge response to a simple question earlier and then decided I should post it as a new thread. I come to this forum regularly now for advice/ideas and thought I would share some of the expertise I have developed around Nikon's and Canon's new wireless multi flash systems. They are truely amazing. They do not replace studio strobes as they might have you believe, but they make it posible to get in and out in situations where time does not allow a full set up. They are extreamly portable. They also shine when strong ambient (natural, tungsten, fluorecent) are present or desired for certain moods/effect since color correcting gels are a snap to use (just set the right WB and shoot in raw in case you forget).

her it is.....the more interesting stuff is at the bottom.

I think it is best when possible to use a fast lens and available light....that said flash is often neccessary. I agree with some of what was said above and disagree with other parts. My two cents is as follows:

High eliminates some shadows behind your subject, eliminates redeye, and adds some dimension to the face. For me center of my flash mounted softbox (see below) is about a foot or so above the lens axis.

I like to get the flash high per above and off center (not straight above the lens) by about six to eight inches (off center adds a little more dimension to the face and allows you to use a very simple L shaped bracket ($30). It still works when you go verticle. It is now 12 inches off center and 6 inches above lens axis. The only trick is getting use to rotating clockwise instead of the usual counter clockwise.

Off center does not hide the shadow behind as well as on axis flash so I soften it by using a dome clipped on the front of the flash AND either a Westcott 5X8 folding Micro Appolo soft box ($35)or a 12X16 folding soft box from Photoflex ($100 with the hardware). Besides softening the shadows behind the subject it also softens the shadows on the subjects face and makes them look much better.

I use the 12X16 PF as often as possible, but it sometimes intimidates or attracts attention so I often set it up (5-10 min), stage it, start with the Westcott (less than one min), and use it after the ice is broken.

May sound like some effort but the results can not be beat. I got my first 3 wedding jobs because I used this set up for candids throughout the weekend at my brother in law's wedding. I was not the actuall Photographer, but the bride liked my stuff much better than his and reccomended me to her freinds. They obviously did too since they hired me.

If you get the right type of bracket you can take the camera off real quick and stick the bracket onto a light stand (less than one min), put the camera on a tripod real quick (less than one min), pull another flash out of your pocket and wala...a two flash system. have someone hold a white reflector for fill and put the second flash high on a second stand and use as a hair light. Unfold an 8x16 collapsable Muslin backdrop and lean it against the wall and you have a set up that comes close (no it does not equal) to a studio portrait set up. I have gotten good at this and can do the set up in less than five minutes while I am talking to people. all the stuff folds and stores in the a camera bage and one small light stand bag (the background colapses to about a 3 foot flat circle). With Nikon and Canon you can use the camera to meter and set the flash exposure using their i-ttl wireless capabilites (each has their advantages and disadvantages but both oare great). It really is amazing how well it works after the learning curve is over.

For Canon

$1000 for two 580EX and a wirless controler ST-2
100 for two light stands
135 for the Photoflex and Westcot softboxes
140 for the collapsable background
50 for two swivle mount light stand to hot shoe adaptors
30 L flash bracket........................................... ......$1450 for an amazing portable system. You can even add gels for effect or to balance abient light color temperature if ambient light is strong flourecent or tungsten. just tape them over the flash head and set the right white balance.

Maybe more information than some want but it took me a long time to get to this point and I wanted to share. If anyone wants more info they can e-mail me at andy.kreager@equistar.com
Andy K
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/statusicon/user_online.gif

I think that it's very important to have a bracket that keeps the flash directly over the lens in both vertical and horizonal mode. If you are any distance away from your subject with those small softboxes they become point source light and that's what a flash is. As soon as it's point source it will throw a shadow and that's what an over the lens flash will avoid. Size and proximity is what makes light soft.

You mention using the setup with another flash and the Wireless TTL set. Well the light on the camera is the fill and the fill light needs to be within 20 degrees of the lens position. Right on top of the lens - in a bracket - is as good a place as any for it. YOU DO NOT use the fill light for modeling. That's what the main flash is for. The whole idea of the fill is to put the same amount of light on both sides of the subject's face so the contrast is low enough to be something managable and within the film/captures latitude.

You usually set up the main light so it's a stop brighter than the shadow and this creates a 3:1 lighting ratio. Without fill it could be 9:1 (or whatever) and you'd lose your shadow detail.

From a Wireless TTL perspective having the flash right above the camera means that the slaved flash has an opportunity to see it no matter which side of the camera I place it on. With an L bracket with the flash to one side and the softbox on top of it I wonder how well the slaved flash - if it's on the far side of the Master - will see it now?

I also wonder if you would see much difference in your wireless shots if you used no softboxes at all. You might try the same setup that you normally use and have a look at the results without them.

Rather than having the ST-E2 with your setup you might want to think about getting a 420EX flash. That will give you three lights. The fill at the camera position, a main light, and then you can use the 420 as a third light either on the background or as a hair light. It would be a C group flash.

I use a 550 and two 420's to do this. From my experience watching a couple of other photographers try to use the ST-E2 I have no doubt that my 550 is a much more powerful Master. I don't use any light modifiers either, and all the flashes are pointed directly at the subject. It should be harsh but doesn't seem to be, and as I've said I'm not sure if the small softboxes would make much difference except that they would significantly weaken the flash output.

I do prefer to use light stands rather than have people hold the off camera flashes. I attach (with self adhesive Velcro) black cards to the flashes to flag the light to prevent flare. But even with flags it's too easy for a friend to lose concentration for a moment and turn the flash towards the camera. With digital it isn't the end of the world since I should see flare on the review, but stands are better in my view.

I use small "Umbrella Brackets" to attach the flashes to the stands and they are available for under $15 from B&H under THREE different manufacturers names!

[Akreager]

I also have two BW umbrellas from Alien Bees (someone make their stuff for them). I just thought I was going on for to long......

Since this is a Canon Forum I used Canon equipment in the example.

I actually have a D70 that I use for wireless

I recently also got a 1D MarkII and some nice Canon glass. I made the switch sense I am going for the higher end and long term. I was ready for even better focus performance, lower noise, and nice glass. but did not want to invest $$$$$$ in Nikon. They have not been able to match even the noise levels of the 20D and are not even in the same universe as the 1DMII & 1DsMII.

I will continue to use my D70 with a 17-55(28-82)F2.8DX for wireless. At some point I may switch wireless over to Canon so I have some questions:

I use the SC-29 cord - one end attached to the camerea (with a nice IR focus assist) and the other to my master flash. It stretches 8 feet so no big deal. the system works on actual light pulses so with the cord you can use it behind the camera and point the master at a wall or bounce facing away from the slaves and they will still see enough bounced "command" pulse to work properly. In other words you do not have to maintain line of site. Outside it is a little different. Since there are no bounce surfaces you have to have some LOS, but they opperate at almost as well.

What can you tell me about your Canon system.

[robertwgross]

I think that it's very important to have a bracket that keeps the flash directly over the lens in both vertical and horizonal mode.

I would not try to shoot a wedding in any other way.

If you are any distance away from your subject with those small softboxes they become point source light and that's what a flash is.

I thought the prevailing wisdom was that, to be truly effective, a softbox needs to be roughly the same size as the subject.

---Bob Gross---

[Akreager]

Actually we are not to far off from each other. First know that I actually am using Nikon With SB800s. I just used Canon as an example cause this is a Canon forum.

At it's simplest, the set up uses one little Wescott softbox on my flash bracket. It is not as good as over the lens, but I made a little gizmo that will allow my L braket to flip it. since I usually switch to the 12X16, I leave the flipping gizmo off. The PhotoFlex 12x16 (with the Nikon supplied plastic duffusor head over the front of the flash as a secondary diffusor) gives a very soft almost unoticable shawdow off the the side of subject. It is better it directly above the lens (no shadow) but just too cumbersom to use that way (it is big - and I tried with many diferent flash brackets). The only way it is useable to me is off axis. Mounted to the side a little still produces MUCH better results than a flash with standard diffusor or small folding one over lens axis. Also it does add some dimension to the face. Also the majority of pics are not against a wall so the shadow is gone anyway. You are right about being close - it is better - but the PF softbox is better than any standard flash at any distance.

Now for multiple. I do use the on bracket flash as fill at -1.0EV sometimes. Other times I put it on a light stand to make it closer - keeping the angle within 20 degrees as you said. Also if there is an extra few seconds I break out the shoot thru umbrellas for better results. finally I have a third SB800 on a stand at the ready and a reflector on a stand at the ready. All can be placed/adjusted quickly and the ratios set almost instanly. Once again not as good as full blown studio flash, but much quicker - It allows you to get shots you would never have the time (or be given the time) to do.

You are right - all the normal studio "rules" need to be followed....or are rules made to be broken.

My intent with the original message was not to write a thesis on studio lighting but to get people thinking about posibilities.

There is a tendancy for people on this forum (I do it too) to correct people for really picky things. someone says Canon 70-200F2L IS and there are 5 replys saying it is F2.8.

All I know is that when I started doing some of the stuff we are talking about, people started going crazy for my stuff. I must be doing something right!!!!!

[Akreager]

Here we go again. Prevailing wisdom.....I guess if I could mount a 30X60 softbox on my camera I would, but since I can't......Try it.....Experiment with it.....Develop your own techniques and take some risks......Maybe you will get some bad pics......but I am telling you there is the potential to raise your own bar here.

Is anyone with me here or is everyone just a bunch of naysayers?????????

[harryb49]

Dave G:

Could you please give me the B&H web page for the "umbrella brackets" you mentioned. I searched for that phrase and came up empty at B&H.

Thanks,
Harry

[eyefire]

I have sometimes wondered about putting two flash on a single bracket, a fill above camera center and a Key off center and higher. It would be heavy and look pretty interesting but I wonder how much difference it would make. Is this just crazy?

[DaveG]

I don't think that there would be enough separation to achieve any kind of ratioed lighting. The principle of ratioed lighting is that the Main light is setup to one side of the subject (say 45 degrees), and lights just one side of the subject's face and creates a shadow on the off flash side. The fill light is set up within 20 degrees of the camera position and lights BOTH the sides of the subject's face, which fills in the shadow somewhat and controls the contrast.

With a bracket both flash's light would hit both sides of the subject's face, so there is no ratio. Even if one flash is outputting at one stop more than the other the you won't notice that. Basically you've changed your two lights into one big light which will illuminate the subject the same as one small light would have. Having one light higher than the other won't matter either, although controlling reflections on glasses could be a bear. Finally the light is coming from the camera position - all of it - and this lighting is very flat and not particularly interesting.

[Ronald S. Jr.]

It can be nice having two flashes on your rig. One set low for fill, and one bounced. Great lighting....it's just heavy and awkward.