Sadly... 21 MP sensor in 5D Replaacement

[Robert Loblaw]

Back in August 4, someone at Fred Miranda made a preposterous and totally unsubstantiated proclamation about new EOS dSLRs. People took one look at his crazy proclamations, and dismissed him as a rumor monger.

Replacing the EOS 40D after only 12 months? Crazy. Skipping the new 12 MP sensor from the Rebel, in favor of a brand new 15 MP sensor? Fanboy dreams. ISO 3200 with those tiny pixels? Impossible. Face detection? Laughable. Superzoom kit lens? What a joke. VGA LCD screen? Whatever.

Well, it turns out the guy was right on the mark with every single proclamation.

And guess what else he had proclaimed back in August 4?

The EOS 5D replacement in Photokina will have no less than 21 Megapixels. Just like the 1Ds Mark III. I'm hoping he's wrong. But I don't think he will be. :cry::cry:

[roli_bark]

And guess what else he had proclaimed back in August 4?

The EOS 5D replacement in Photokina will have no less than 21 Megapixels. Just like the 1Ds Mark III. I'm hoping he's wrong. But I don't think he will be. :cry::cry:

Why think he's wrong ?
If true [ an EOS 5D replacement with no less than 21 Megapixels ]- It is a dream come true.

[sol95]

Why think he's wrong ?
If true [ an EOS 5D replacement with no less than 21 Megapixels ]- It is a dream come true.

Maybe he just recently plonked down his hard-earned for the 1Ds MkIII....

[Robert Loblaw]

Why think he's wrong ?

If true it is a dream come true.


Oh, I don't think he's wrong. I'm just hoping he's wrong. I don't need 21 million pixels --- that's just overkill. The RAW file for each 1Ds Mark III photograph is 25 Megabytes. Do you know how crazy that is? If you shot the camera in 5.0 fps burst, you'll eat up one gig of memory every 8 seconds.

I think I'd rather have fewer pixels in exchange for more dynamic range and higher ISO capability.

Here's the guy's profile (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/recent/crivera) at Fred Miranda. All his crazy proclamations about the EOS 50D from the beginning of the month turned out to be correct. As far as the EOS 5D replacement goes... well, I hope he's wrong.

[Jim G]

Heck.... I might very well get me one of those - that'd be a dreamy combination with a 1d III.... huge res landscape body, smaller fast one for low light gig work or sports when you don't need that huge res....

[mrklaw]

if the 50D is having 15mp, then a FF having 21 is about right. and if it has pixel binning, you'll get nice 10.5mp images at ISO 50,000!

sounds like canon is on a sensor upgrade path, so its not unlikely.

[tommykjensen]

Back in August 4, someone at Fred Miranda made a preposterous and totally unsubstantiated proclamation about new EOS dSLRs. People took one look at his crazy proclamations, and dismissed him as a rumor monger.

Replacing the EOS 40D after only 12 months? Crazy. Skipping the new 12 MP sensor from the Rebel, in favor of a brand new 15 MP sensor? Fanboy dreams. ISO 3200 with those tiny pixels? Impossible. Face detection? Laughable. Superzoom kit lens? What a joke. VGA LCD screen? Whatever.

Well, it turns out the guy was right on the mark with every single proclamation.

And guess what else he had proclaimed back in August 4?

The EOS 5D replacement in Photokina will have no less than 21 Megapixels. Just like the 1Ds Mark III. I'm hoping he's wrong. But I don't think he will be. :cry::cry:

Well to me it is still a rumor until I see the announcement on an official Canon site in a language I can understand. I don't belive screenshots/saved webpages etc that are hosted on non-Canon sites.

[pknight]

Concerns about larger pixel counts assume that all related technology is static. I doubt that this will be the case.

[Imaginos]

Well to me it is still a rumor until I see the announcement on an official Canon site in a language I can understand. I don't belive screenshots/saved webpages etc that are hosted on non-Canon sites.
Concur. However, if this 50D hoopla pans out the way it's being pitched right now, and they come out with a 5D replacement that's being described here, it would seem to me that they declared open warfare on Nikon the weekend after the D3 was announced. If they can deliver bodies that aren't just good write-ups on paper, then the fight's on. Bold, but risky stuff.

It'll also seriously change my expectations over the next 2 year (when I begin thinking about an upgrade).

[cptrios]

and if it has pixel binning, you'll get nice 10.5mp images at ISO 50,000!

Didn't think about that...how awesome would that be?? Of course, this wonderful new binning capability is still just a rumor. But if it's true, you could potentially see a completely noise-free 10mp image at 1600 and maybe even 3200. And at what, 12mb per sRAW file? Nothing to complain about there!

[Robert Loblaw]

Concerns about larger pixel counts assume that all related technology is static.


It would be if Canon simply re-uses the 1Ds Mark III sensor instead of developing a new one. It's possible, because that's exactly what Nikon did when they re-used the D3 sensor for the D700.

The 1Ds Mark III sensor has a sensitivity range of only ISO 100 to ISO 1600. Very old school. It needed an expansion mode just to reach ISO 3200. In contrast, the sensor for the 1D Mark III had an actual sensitivity range of ISO 100 to 3200 without any expansion. The 12.2 MP Nikon full frame sensor has a sensitivity range of ISO 200 to ISO 6400. Amazingly, expansion for the D3 only happens beyond ISO 6400.

From what I've seen of current cameras, the image quality take a nose dive as soon as they hit the ISO expansion modes. I really hope that whatever full frame digital SLR Canon introduces at Photokina wouldn't be stuck at ISO 1600 like the 1Ds Mark III.

[Epix]

Oh, I don't think he's wrong. I'm just hoping he's wrong. I don't need 21 million pixels --- that's just overkill. The RAW file for each 1Ds Mark III photograph is 25 Megabytes. Do you know how crazy that is? If you shot the camera in 5.0 fps burst, you'll eat up one gig of memory every 8 seconds.

I think I'd rather have fewer pixels in exchange for more dynamic range and higher ISO capability.

Here's the guy's profile (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/recent/crivera) at Fred Miranda. All his crazy proclamations about the EOS 50D from the beginning of the month turned out to be correct. As far as the EOS 5D replacement goes... well, I hope he's wrong.Is there even a memory format on the market that can has a 125MB/s write speed? :confused:

[ArenGh]

Is there even a memory format on the market that can has a 125MB/s write speed? :confused:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/silverbeam/Miscellaneous/576px-Dysan_floppy_disk_01.jpg

[form]

I honestly don't see how ANYONE could complain about having such high resolution in an economically more available camera than the 1Ds MK III. In 3-5 years the very same people would be saying "Well! It's about time."

[TheHoff]

The EOS 5D replacement in Photokina will have no less than 21 Megapixels.

Of course it will be 20 or more. With their new consumer model at 15+, there is no way they could put 16.7 in the full frame replacement.

There is nothing sad about it. Technology marches on. I'm sure as we move into higher density sensors, binning or other approaches will be used so you don't have to produce huge files unless you want to. Have faith that all aspects will get better as we move forward-- speed, noise, and apparent resolution.

[form]

So 15.1 megapixels is verified? That would be a huge boost that greatly surpasses the Nikon cameras and allows people like me to brag to my clients when asked.

[TheHoff]

It isn't verified as anything except that Canon China "accidentally" posted a series of web pages with huge photos and details on the 50D. Whether it is accurate to the camera that will be released or if the camera will be released anytime this year, no one really knows.

[VTSHEP1]

21MP is the rumor now, wow, this is getting interesting. If this is true i can wait to see how large i can blow these puppies up before i get degredation! I have a 12 foot high walls just waiting!

[Dragos Jianu]

I can't possibly see how 5D2 could cut it at just 21 when Sony is bringing out 24MP. We, the people, NEED 25MP, or at least 24.2MP just so we can be sooo much cooler!!! Canon needs to do his homework and finally understand the concept of cheap marketing once and for all! :rolleyes:

The sad part is, provided that they won't make the 5D2 a 1Ds3 killer, that means we won't see pretty much any real ISO improvements. :(

[Colorblinded]

Concerns about larger pixel counts assume that all related technology is static. I doubt that this will be the case.
I hope not, but I still would rather a lower res and smaller file size. Still if it retains excellent quality and doesn't have a strong AA filter the detail will be insane and it would be certainly well placed against the Sony A900 with almost 24 or 25 megapixels.

I do want good ISO performance to 3200 however, so again I hope you're right about improved sensor technology/performance!

[gdl357]

15MP in 50D and 21MP in New 5D + a bunch of ex-Canon guys that jumped ship a few months ago = :cry: ex-Canon guys

How many times can they jump ship...:rolleyes:

21MP is sad, but not for us Canon followers.

[TheHoff]

You're FINALLY going to get a DSLR!

woohoo!



hehehe happy day!

[PhotoJourno]

Huh, I do have a technical question.

which of the components of the current 5D is it that give it that edge over all other camera models for sharpness, and that "five Deeish" feel that no other camera can achieve?..

Reading the thread about upping the sensor's Mpixels does make sense, as Canon has been marketing the new resolutions. But I just thought of something: What is it that the 'new' camera would have to have in order to still be called a 5D second generation? (not just by name, but also by performance).

you see, I stumble upon this thread and think "Well, you put a new sensor, new board, new Digic, new etc", then you have a camera that will do just as well -if not better- than the 5D". Is the 5D that legendary? Or has it already been outdone by the 1Ds Mk II, and Mk III ?...

Very curious.

[form]

Price point and overall performance made the 5D popular. The full frame sensor gave more 35mm-like shallower DoF which makes photos "pop" to many people more than any 1.6x crop sensor camera can do given the same circumstances, distance from subject, focal length, etc. The antialiasing filter was also supposedly lighter which resulted in sharper per-pixel images.

[Colorblinded]

which of the components of the current 5D is it that give it that edge over all other camera models for sharpness, and that "five Deeish" feel that no other camera can achieve?..
I believe it's a combination of good sensor performance with the large, relatively low resolution/density sensor being easy on the lenses and the weak AA filter which make for the "5D" look. Appearance of perspective and DOF also differs from other cropped SLRs but for those familiar to full frame (such as myself) I don't really refer to that as the 5D "pop," that's just the way it should be. :D

[PhotoJourno]

Price point and overall performance made the 5D popular. The full frame sensor gave more 35mm-like shallower DoF which makes photos "pop" to many people more than any 1.6x crop sensor camera can do given the same circumstances, distance from subject, focal length, etc. The antialiasing filter was also supposedly lighter which resulted in sharper per-pixel images.

So technically replicating the performance of the 5D, so long as it remains Full Frame sensored, and priced accordingly, should not be anything complicated. Am I getting it right?

[form]

Performance in camera output or financial plus for Canon? The leading competitor's cameras offer so many more features that the 5D would probably have to keep up with or surpass to be as popular as the original 5D, but having almost 2x the resolution of the competition would be a huge asset and would make up for many other faults, provided the resulting image quality is still very good.

I also believe that the 5D was praised so highly because lots of people enjoy saying they paid more for a better camera than the majority. Bragging rights made that camera really good this past two years.

[shimmishim]

Honestly is there a need to keep increasing the MP count. As someone stated earlier the files are going to get absolutely HUGE when shooting in RAW.

Why is so much being placed into MP count rather than ISO performance?

It reminds me of the days back when intel was trying to ramp their speeds up as much as possible while AMD was hanging back and focusing more on IPC (instructions per clock) than raw speed.

Is it the consumers fault? Do we believe that more is better?

I'm excited about the new upcoming 50D and I think it'll be priced appropriately.

A new 5Dmk2 would also be sweet only if th price is right.

d700 for $3000 is pretty nice for full-frame.

I hope the new 5Dmk2 doesn't exeed 3000. I'm hoping it'll be a few hundred (at least) less to compete with the Nikon offering.

[Colorblinded]

I hope the new 5Dmk2 doesn't exeed 3000. I'm hoping it'll be a few hundred (at least) less to compete with the Nikon offering.
I'm personally hoping it's more advanced than the D700 just because of what I want it to be. If it costs $500 more I won't cry. :) It does need to be competitive on the price/performance issue so I am curious how Canon approaches that. The 50D looks to be a bit less camera than the D300 for less money which is totally fine, but I'd rather have more camera in the 5D MK II.

[AdamJL]

Back in August 4, someone at Fred Miranda made a preposterous and totally unsubstantiated proclamation about new EOS dSLRs. People took one look at his crazy proclamations, and dismissed him as a rumor monger.

Replacing the EOS 40D after only 12 months? Crazy. Skipping the new 12 MP sensor from the Rebel, in favor of a brand new 15 MP sensor? Fanboy dreams. ISO 3200 with those tiny pixels? Impossible. Face detection? Laughable. Superzoom kit lens? What a joke. VGA LCD screen? Whatever.

Well, it turns out the guy was right on the mark with every single proclamation.

And guess what else he had proclaimed back in August 4?

The EOS 5D replacement in Photokina will have no less than 21 Megapixels. Just like the 1Ds Mark III. I'm hoping he's wrong. But I don't think he will be. :cry::cry:

Ditto. I hope it doesn't hit that size. One, for the REQUIRED new lens purchase (17-40 sucks ass on the 1Ds III), and two, well too many pixels in the same size area... you know the drill.
The 1D III arguably gives better IQ than the 1Ds III because of the bigger pixels. Extrapolating that sensor gives you 16.3mp

[form]

If 35mm sensor resolutions begin to invade the territory of medium format backs, then they will also be usable for the same things: Extremely high quality, high resolution glamour/fashion photos, aerial photography, landscape photography, and others.

I would personally benefit a great amount from low noise at high ISOs and an extra 5 megapixels over my 40D; it would make my clients' photos look great even with heavier cropping.

[illusionest]

sounds about right - 50D with 15 mpx, 5D replacement should be somewhere near the 20s. So i assume canon has some 1D replacement coming soon too....1D mk3 N ? they need one. or maybe 1Dx?

[Robert Loblaw]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/silverbeam/Miscellaneous/576px-Dysan_floppy_disk_01.jpg





Wow.

You... are not nearly as old as I am. When I think of floppy disks, I still think about the ones that were literally floppy.


:D

[form]

Like the 5.25"?

[Tom W]

So technically replicating the performance of the 5D, so long as it remains Full Frame sensored, and priced accordingly, should not be anything complicated. Am I getting it right?


Well, it took Nikon nearly 3 years to match or exceed the IQ of the 5D at the price range of the original 5D. I don't know if that makes it complicated or not.

[debonaire]

Honestly is there a need to keep increasing the MP count. As someone stated earlier the files are going to get absolutely HUGE when shooting in RAW.

Why is so much being placed into MP count rather than ISO performance?

It reminds me of the days back when intel was trying to ramp their speeds up as much as possible while AMD was hanging back and focusing more on IPC (instructions per clock) than raw speed.

Is it the consumers fault? Do we believe that more is better?


I think you hit the nail on the head...atleast for this current realm of marketing.

Back in the 90s, what made Intel's CPUs so much better than the competition (in the consumer's eyes)? Clock speed.

Also, what was considered to be "a lot of memory" in the early 90s? 64-128MB RAM and/or 64-128MB hard-drive!

As time has gone on, the amount of memory computer programs needed has gone up as well. So, that brings me to what we have seen in cameras over the past several years. The cost of memory devices has gone while the amount/size of memory and its relative access speeds have gone up. The camera manufacturers really don't care (most-likely) as to how much memory a device might need...just as long as they can win the MegaPixel war!

As the technology increases in this way, it's up to us as consumers to buy the bigger faster memory cards to handle the newer camera's output...and then upgrade many other aspects of our computers to handle the amount of memory the new images take.

Be looking to add a couple more GB of RAM and get a new TB HD while you're at it!! ;)

[silvex]

5d MkII 21MP and 16bit...will shake the dSLR world...:) I was right on my 21MP prediction AND Digi IV :shock: ...maybe I am correct in the 16bit...:)

[silvex]

I think you hit the nail on the head...atleast for this current realm of marketing.

Back in the 90s, what made Intel's CPUs so much better than the competition (in the consumer's eyes)? Clock speed.

Also, what was considered to be "a lot of memory" in the early 90s? 64-128MB RAM and/or 64-128MB hard-drive!

As time has gone on, the amount of memory computer programs needed has gone up as well. So, that brings me to what we have seen in cameras over the past several years. The cost of memory devices has gone while the amount/size of memory and its relative access speeds have gone up. The camera manufacturers really don't care (most-likely) as to how much memory a device might need...just as long as they can win the MegaPixel war!

As the technology increases in this way, it's up to us as consumers to buy the bigger faster memory cards to handle the newer camera's output...and then upgrade many other aspects of our computers to handle the amount of memory the new images take.

Be looking to add a couple more GB of RAM and get a new TB HD while you're at it!! ;)

1TB of storage cost was about 3M ($3,000,000USD ) back in 2000...now ...$1,000 or less...:)

[Epix]

1TB of storage cost was about 3M ($3,000,000USD ) back in 2000...now ...$1,000 or less...:)
More like $150-200 now.

[JC4]

5d MkII 21MP and 16bit...will shake the dSLR world...:) I was ight on my 21MP prediction...maybe I am correct in the 16bit...:)

I have always shot at the highest resolution, but if this proves true, I'll be changing my ways. I hope they have some good down sized options. Like Binning, regardless of ISO.

For the first time it'll be like owning a muscle car. More horsepower than is needed 90% of the time, but its there when you want it. Hope its true!

[TheHoff]

^^^ Exactly. As long as their is a way to throttle it down and save some fuel, having the horsepower when needed is awesome.

[Yohan Pamudji]

I honestly don't see how ANYONE could complain about having such high resolution in an economically more available camera than the 1Ds MK III. In 3-5 years the very same people would be saying "Well! It's about time."

Well, now you've seen one: me. I wouldn't mind the resolution too much (although it really is way overkill for my use and those massive files would choke my computer)--it's sacrificing noise performance for extra pixels that would bother me. That's assuming similar noise levels to the 1DsIII, which although isn't terrible isn't a world-beater either. I'd much, much, much rather stay at 12-15MP and vastly improve noise performance than to stay stagnant (or even move backwards) in noise performance for the sake of extra pixels.

[Epix]

Well, now you've seen one: me. I wouldn't mind the resolution too much (although it really is way overkill for my use and those massive files would choke my computer)--it's sacrificing noise performance for extra pixels that would bother me. That's assuming similar noise levels to the 1DsIII, which although isn't terrible isn't a world-beater either. I'd much, much, much rather stay at 12-15MP and vastly improve noise performance than to stay stagnant (or even move backwards) in noise performance for the sake of extra pixels.
Agreed. A FF 16mp camera with noise performance and AF improvements over the 5D would be an instant sale for me.

[mattograph]

It isn't verified as anything except that Canon China "accidentally" posted a series of web pages with huge photos and details on the 50D. Whether it is accurate to the camera that will be released or if the camera will be released anytime this year, no one really knows.

Yes, and I would like to remind everyone that math in China can be different then math in the west.

For instance, 14=16...........:)

[Colorblinded]

^^^ Exactly. As long as their is a way to throttle it down and save some fuel, having the horsepower when needed is awesome.If done right, I agree and in which case I wouldn't be nearly so cranky about cramming too much resolution in to it.

[PhotoJourno]

Yes, and I would like to remind everyone that math in China can be different then math in the west.

For instance, 14=16...........:)

:lol:

I do think that the resolution idea being entertained here -by itself- is really interesting.

Wouldn't it be nice to actually have a choice between S,M and L? As of the last six years, these were extremely arguable, as the memory card size really dictated the amount of photos one could take.

But I have to say, shooting M on a 21mpixel camera in order to achieve 11mpixel results would be awesome, knowing that for that special shot or event, you can still jump upwards.

But... Would the IQ be the same? (running a 21mp sensor at half res).

Just rethorics, I guess.

[TheHoff]

Right, PJ, it depends how the pixels are halved (or quartered) and the algorithm that does the binning. I'm not up to speed on their rumoured specs of pixel-binning but the general idea makes sense that you might actually get better quality photos at the S/M RAW settings because of less noise.

[silvex]

Here is a link about pixel-binning
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/digitalimaging/concepts/binning.html

[mattograph]

Wow. That is an excellent article that went totally over my head.

I need my sensor GED first.:)

[PhotoJourno]

Wow. That is an excellent article that went totally over my head.

I need my sensor GED first.:)


What you need sir, is an Online Degree from PJ Academic Studies !!!

I can get you a diploma, the knowledge you need for sensors, all in ten to tweny minute session. (note it is not in plural!! Yes, as seen on TV and Fred Miranda, I am able to teach you in 20 mins).

Not only the technical aspects of sensors, pixels and binning, but also how to include this newfound knowledge in daily situations, like the grocery store cashier's line, or the top ten most funny sensor jokes to share with friends, and small sensor anecdotes to share at social gatherings and leave everyone speechless !!... Yes, believe it or not, I am THAT PJ.

I shall post my rates and curriculae for study shortly.

[Naturalworldphotographer]

Say the new 5DmkII is 21mps, even if at 100% the images are more grainy than if the new sensor was lower resolution, surely at a similar print size, say A2 or A1 at iso 6400, compared to the same photo taken with a d3, at that size, which would actually have the most visible noise when viewed? Wouldn't the DPI be much higher from a 21mp print compared to a 12mp print to the point where even if the 21mp at 100% shows more noise than the 12mp at 100%, the 21mp print would look less noisy? Hope I made sense, I'm sure this has already been covered. :P

[dkspook]

21mp FF sensor in a 5D/40D sized body with good AF (not 1D series good, just like 40D + 10%...) and it would be my ultimate dream camera body. MAN that thing would be killer!

No more lens purchases, I'm gonna start saving up money.

Hmm... Do kids REALLY need diapers? Do I need to eat EVERY day?

[mattograph]

What you need sir, is an Online Degree from PJ Academic Studies !!!

I can get you a diploma, the knowledge you need for sensors, all in ten to tweny minute session. (note it is not in plural!! Yes, as seen on TV and Fred Miranda, I am able to teach you in 20 mins).

Not only the technical aspects of sensors, pixels and binning, but also how to include this newfound knowledge in daily situations, like the grocery store cashier's line, or the top ten most funny sensor jokes to share with friends, and small sensor anecdotes to share at social gatherings and leave everyone speechless !!... Yes, believe it or not, I am THAT PJ.

I shall post my rates and curriculae for study shortly.



Wow!?! If I can get a student loan from the Hoff, you're on!

[PhotoJourno]

Wow!?! If I can get a student loan from the Hoff, you're on!


Awesome. Hoff a Loan shark now? He used to be in Bails and bonds, so make sure you can pay him though.

[Yohan Pamudji]

Hmm... Do kids REALLY need diapers?

No. That's just your western mentality playing tricks on you. Kids survive just fine in 3rd world countries without diapers. All you need is some thick cloth and a lot of elbow grease, and you can forgo buying diapers for good! The things we do for toys :)

[sunbeast]

No. That's just your western mentality playing tricks on you. Kids survive just fine in 3rd world countries without diapers. All you need is some thick cloth and a lot of elbow grease, and you can forgo buying diapers for good! The things we do for toys :)

Heck.....who needs a thick cloth. Newspaper and a garden hose should do the trick!

[Dragos Jianu]

The question is, will Canon release the 5D2 to be a 1Ds3 killer ? I hardly think so. So one can forget about D3/D700 ISO performance
The problem with high density sensors is the strain they put on the glass. All but the best glass will cough blood on the 50D and to a large extent on the 1Ds3/5D2 alike, especially wide open or close to that. What that means is that, in practice, unless using the very best lenses under studio conditions you'll just get a larger and softer output, with some bonus CA, without a noticeable increase in resolving power.

I've posted this versus before. I was truly surprised how well it proves this point. Keep in mind this comparison was made under ideal studio conditions using a good glass stopped down. The RAW pictures from the 5D and 1Ds3 reviews on dpreview. The 5D shot upsized to 21MP. No extra processing or sharpening on either of them:

5D on the left column, 1Ds3 on the right.
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/84/5d1ds3mo1na3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Furthermore, looking at the 1Ds3 and 1Ds2 RAW pictures it seems pretty obvious that even under ideal conditions there's virtually no difference in resolving power. The glass tops. I for one prefer the 1Ds2 picture http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos1dsmarkiii/page28.asp

[Robert Loblaw]

5d MkII 21MP and 16bit...will shake the dSLR world...:)


Not really. Earlier this year, Sony had already announced the existence of a 24 MP Full Frame sensor in development. They made the highly unusual move of announcing its availability for any other company to purchase. (hint, hint: Nikon)

Sony has been running around all year telling everyone that their first full frame digital SLR will be ready in time for Photokina this year. Sony has reserved Sept 10 for their big press conference, just as Canon had reserved Aug 26 for theirs. When the 21 MP EOS digital SLR is unveiled next month, it'll do so under the shadow of a 24 MP Sony full frame digital SLR. In fact, Sony's 24 MP entry is probably the single driving force behind Canon's decision to go with such a high pixel count on a prosumer camera.

And so it's Sony's 24 MP full frame digital SLR that will shake the world. Canon's 21 MP will just be the aftershock. :)


.

[Jack_C]

Remember 21MP full frame is just 8MP over the 1.6x crop area,
thats pixel density from 4 years ago.

You can always shoot in the new sRAW1 mode to save card space and reduce noise.

[silvex]

When the 21 MP EOS digital SLR is unveiled next month, it'll do so under the shadow of a 24 MP Sony full frame digital SLR.


.

My bet is that IF they have 16bit NOT 14bit...a quake of magnitude 10 in the ritcher scale will reduce to rubble all competition...for now...:)

[sadatk]

Not really. Earlier this year, Sony had already announced the existence of a 24 MP Full Frame sensor in development. They made the highly unusual move of announcing its availability for any other company to purchase. (hint, hint: Nikon)

Sony has been running around all year telling everyone that their first full frame digital SLR will be ready in time for Photokina this year. Sony has reserved Sept 10 for their big press conference, just as Canon had reserved Aug 26 for theirs. When the 21 MP EOS digital SLR is unveiled next month, it'll do so under the shadow of a 24 MP Sony full frame digital SLR. In fact, Sony's 24 MP entry is probably the single driving force behind Canon's decision to go with such a high pixel count on a prosumer camera.

And so it's Sony's 24 MP full frame digital SLR that will shake the world. Canon's 21 MP will just be the aftershock. :)


.
Sony's 24MP won't come under $3000, even then--how great is their selection of FF lens anyway other than expensive Zeiss?

[silvex]

It is 2:26AM in Germany....do you know where your press releases are? :)

[photomadnz]

Sony's 24MP won't come under $3000, even then--how great is their selection of FF lens anyway other than expensive Zeiss?

Yes you are correct... But only just!! :lol:

[powerslave]

SOmeone may have already raised this point somewhere in this thread, but for those complaining about having 21MP, having 21MP doesn't mean you HAVE to shoot at 21MP.

[TheHoff]

My cat demands I always shoot him in full resolution RAW :(

[powerslave]

Well you always have sRAW :D

[sol95]

My cat demands I always shoot him in full resolution RAW :(

get rid of the cat!:p

[Nightcrawler]

SOmeone may have already raised this point somewhere in this thread, but for those complaining about having 21MP, having 21MP doesn't mean you HAVE to shoot at 21MP.

Yeah, it would be quite awesome if they had a 1/2 resolution pixel binned sRAW with that for really low noise images.

[PhotoJourno]

The question is, will Canon release the 5D2 to be a 1Ds3 killer ? I hardly think so. So one can forget about D3/D700 ISO performance
The problem with high density sensors is the strain they put on the glass. All but the best glass will cough blood on the 50D and to a large extent on the 1Ds3/5D2 alike, especially wide open or close to that. What that means is that, in practice, unless using the very best lenses under studio conditions you'll just get a larger and softer output, with some bonus CA, without a noticeable increase in resolving power.

Furthermore, looking at the 1Ds3 and 1Ds2 RAW pictures it seems pretty obvious that even under ideal conditions there's virtually no difference in resolving power. The glass tops. I for one prefer the 1Ds2 picture http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos1dsmarkiii/page28.asp

Thanks Dragos. This really helps pose my question with actual background data behind it. I just got the feeling this morning, that regardless of what the replacement camera will be, that it will be very tough if not near impossible to replicate the serendipitous combination that made the 5D such a sharpness monster.

And if the 5D is worth mostly for that stunning quality of image, then unless the next full frame actually tops that performance, it might make more sense and buy and barter with the older 5D cameras than the newer models.

Am I making any sense?... Who cares about features. 5D owners should want and hope that the same magical component from the original 5D is present in whatever the new model will be. Otherwise, they'd still be better off with a 5D. (Well, perhaps not in the long run, as canon will discontinue the model and any unit out there will be old and over-clicked).

[Yohan Pamudji]

50D is now officially 15MP, and Canon are claiming 1-1.5 stops better high ISO noise performance compared to the 40D while packing in 50% more pixels. Could we see similar gains in the 5DII?

[form]

If the claims are true, then I could actually justify using the ISO3200 setting. That would open up many doors for me.

[zombieman]

Looks like Mr. "crivera" was right after all (good catch there by the OP).

Mental note to those who didn't believe the Chinese leak was real: there's rumor and there's rumor. Learn to differentiate ;-)

[Robert Loblaw]

When the 21 MP EOS digital SLR is unveiled next month, it'll do so under the shadow of a 24 MP Sony full frame digital SLR.

And so it's Sony's 24 MP full frame digital SLR that will shake the world. Canon's 21 MP will just be the aftershock. :)



Just an update on this thread. The National Geographic print advertisements (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1037&thread=29193169&page=2) for the Sony A900 are out. And yes, it will in fact be 24 MP. Its specs are:
24.6 MP full frame sensor
5.0 fps
Dual "BionZ" processors
100% coverage Viewfinder @ 0.74x magnification
Super Steady Shot
19-pt AF System ( 9 dual-cross type @ f2.8 )



Back in August 4, someone at Fred Miranda made a preposterous and totally unsubstantiated proclamation about specs for a new EOS 50D...

Well, it turns out the guy was right on the mark with every single specs.

Looks like Mr. "crivera" was right after all.


Also an update on what crivera has had to say about the EOS 5D replacement coming this September:
21 MP
Digic 4
4.0 fps
New Anti-Aliasing filter
1 stop better than EOS 50D
features similar to EOS 50D
Body will not be professional grade
AF will not be professional gradeNikon's D700 is the full frame version of their own D300. And it's looking like Canon is getting ready to unveil a full frame version of their own EOS 50D. The EOS 50D has more pixels than a Nikon D300, but is cheaper because lacks a pro body and pro AF. That relationship may carry over to their full frame counterparts.

I hope crivera is right on the mark again, because a full frame EOS 50D is all I really want. I don't want to pay $3500 for 45 AF points and weather seals and 8 fps and other stuff I don't personally need. I'd be happy if Canon makes a splash by introducing a cheaper full frame camera at $2400. Is it possible?

[Hulka]

What is the guestimated price of this new 5DII or what ever they decide to call it? Any ideas?

[Assumer]

Just an update on this thread. The National Geographic print advertisements (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1037&thread=29193169&page=2) for the Sony A900 are out. And yes, it will in fact be 24 MP. Its specs are:
24.6 MP full frame sensor
5.0 fps
Dual "BionZ" processors
100% coverage Viewfinder @ 0.74x magnification
Super Steady Shot
19-pt AF System ( 9 dual-cross type @ f2.8 )







Also an update on what crivera has had to say about the EOS 5D replacement coming this September:
21 MP
Digic 4
4.0 fps
New Anti-Aliasing filter
1 stop better than EOS 50D
features similar to EOS 50D
Body will not be professional grade
AF will not be professional gradeNikon's D700 is the full frame version of their own D300. And it's looking like Canon is getting ready to unveil a full frame version of their own EOS 50D. The EOS 50D has more pixels than a Nikon D300, but is cheaper because lacks a pro body and pro AF. That relationship may carry over to their full frame counterparts.

I hope crivera is right on the mark again, because a full frame EOS 50D is all I really want. I don't want to pay $3500 for 45 AF points and weather seals and 8 fps and other stuff I don't personally need. I'd be happy if Canon makes a splash by introducing a cheaper full frame camera at $2400. Is it possible?
Oh I would love a full frame 50D. I am looking at the Nikon D700 due to the full frame. I need this to happen to stay with canon. Or a killer new 5D!!!!

[dkspook]

Full frame 50D and my car will be on the buy & sell forum. Along with one of my kidneys.

[shimmishim]

Just an update on this thread. The National Geographic print advertisements (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1037&thread=29193169&page=2) for the Sony A900 are out. And yes, it will in fact be 24 MP. Its specs are:
24.6 MP full frame sensor
5.0 fps
Dual "BionZ" processors
100% coverage Viewfinder @ 0.74x magnification
Super Steady Shot
19-pt AF System ( 9 dual-cross type @ f2.8 )







Also an update on what crivera has had to say about the EOS 5D replacement coming this September:
21 MP
Digic 4
4.0 fps
New Anti-Aliasing filter
1 stop better than EOS 50D
features similar to EOS 50D
Body will not be professional grade
AF will not be professional gradeNikon's D700 is the full frame version of their own D300. And it's looking like Canon is getting ready to unveil a full frame version of their own EOS 50D. The EOS 50D has more pixels than a Nikon D300, but is cheaper because lacks a pro body and pro AF. That relationship may carry over to their full frame counterparts.

I hope crivera is right on the mark again, because a full frame EOS 50D is all I really want. I don't want to pay $3500 for 45 AF points and weather seals and 8 fps and other stuff I don't personally need. I'd be happy if Canon makes a splash by introducing a cheaper full frame camera at $2400. Is it possible?

A 50D, FF 50D, 5D MK2, then the 1D MK3 makes no sense.

D300, D700, D3 makes sense.


Or are you saying that the FF 50D would be the 5D MK2 with 4.0fps and the other specs listed above.

I think this is what you mean. Question is why would they cripple the fps rate on the FF model? I'd hope they'd keep it around 6.0 like the 50D.

Hmm... FF goodness for $2400 would be nice!!!

[JC4]

I think this is what you mean. Question is why would they cripple the fps rate on the FF model? I'd hope they'd keep it around 6.0 like the 50D.


At 21mp, thats probably all they can get out of a single Digic IV. The 50d get 6fps at 15mp, so the ratio is about right. I was hoping for at least 5fps, but won't be surprise if 4 is all we get. That's why I'd prefer a 15mp FF. Plenty of pixels, and would yield even better noise performance.

Hopefully we'll know soon.

[Stealthy Ninja]

Just to add something obvious.

21mp would be good for stuff you get paid for (if the client needed a huge file... ie for a poster or something), but for normal stuff, that pixel binning thing would be awesome. :D

Nikon's D700 is the full frame version of their own D300. And it's looking like Canon is getting ready to unveil a full frame version of their own EOS 50D.

I swear I suggested this a few days ago... didn't I?! ???

[cyrn]

Also an update on what crivera has had to say about the EOS 5D replacement coming this September:
21 MP
Digic 4
4.0 fps
New Anti-Aliasing filter
1 stop better than EOS 50D
features similar to EOS 50D
Body will not be professional grade
AF will not be professional gradeNikon's D700 is the full frame version of their own D300. And it's looking like Canon is getting ready to unveil a full frame version of their own EOS 50D. The EOS 50D has more pixels than a Nikon D300, but is cheaper because lacks a pro body and pro AF. That relationship may carry over to their full frame counterparts.

I hope crivera is right on the mark again, because a full frame EOS 50D is all I really want. I don't want to pay $3500 for 45 AF points and weather seals and 8 fps and other stuff I don't personally need. I'd be happy if Canon makes a splash by introducing a cheaper full frame camera at $2400. Is it possible?

you might get all the above for $3500 instead of your expected $2400. :eek::lol::lol:

[JC4]

Just to add something obvious.

21mp would be good for stuff you get paid for (if the client needed a huge file... ie for a poster or something), but for normal stuff, that pixel binning thing would be awesome. :D


I'm hoping binning works as expected, and produces some fantastic 10.5mp images, because that's where mine would sit most of the time. I'd still prefer native 15mp, just to bump the frame rate up 1 or 2. I doubt binning will help frame-rate, maybe even hurt it.

[Tee Why]

IF 21MP is true, then a used 5D is looking really good now. Maybe instead of a 50D, I'll pick up a used 5D from a person upgrading to a 5DMii.

After all more the MP, better the image, right?

[Joytek]

no one is talking about the spaces between the pixels .... there is a lot of 'wasted' space there, and as sensor tech improves they will be maximizing the pixel size and shrinking the gaps between them..... does anyone know how the new canon sensor (ie:50D) compares in this respect to the older ones?

they can cram a lot more pixels in there without making it more 'noisy' as long as they keep bringing them closer together and keeping their size reasonable in the process.
(I know that they already got 100% microlens cover for the sensor, but there still are some significant gaps left between the actual pixels)

to keep ahead of the competition they would have to implement 16 bit capture (I was disappointed that they didn't with the 50D).....and increase the DR ..... the current (old?) CMOS tech can deliver 14 stops ....but due to limitations of the downstream components (the converter etc.) it is not possible to actually record all that range, and thus a bunch is lost (so we get somewhere around 9 stops max) ..... I don't know about you guys, but I find myself wanting to shoot scenes that are much higher dynamic range than my sensor can handle, and it always ends up being a compromise (and,no, HDR using bracketing is no good cause the subjects are usually in some kind of motion)

so as for the number of pixels .... i think one should not worry YET;-) ....but as for it NOT being a 16 bit and 12+ stop camera ....it is time to worry for sure:-) ....they will keep on doling out the features one by one ....and so it might take a few more years....

[form]

So, with all this talk about the 5D II being the FF 50D, does this mean that the 5D was the FF 20D?

[krb]

So, with all this talk about the 5D II being the FF 50D, does this mean that the 5D was the FF 20D?
I thought the 30D was current when the 5D came out. But yeah, that's pretty much it.

[timbop]

So, with all this talk about the 5D II being the FF 50D, does this mean that the 5D was the FF 20D?

Yes, the 30d and 5d were under development at the same time, both based on the 20D. The 5 came out 5 months before the 30d, but they both essentially had the same improvements (other than sensor) over the 20d. the picture styles, lcd, etc were the same. The only addition to the af for the 5 was the addition of 6 "hidden assist" af sensors in the middle that only activate in ai servo with center point af.

[deeeez]

a gripped, full weather sealed, 21 mp 5Dmk2 would cannibalize the $7800 1Ds MKIII. Don't you guys think those specs are improbable?

[krb]

a gripped, full weather sealed, 21 mp 5Dmk2 would cannibalize the $7800 1Ds MKIII. So will the introduction of the 1Ds MKIIIn...

[AdamJL]

a gripped, full weather sealed, 21 mp 5Dmk2 would cannibalize the $7800 1Ds MKIII. Don't you guys think those specs are improbable?

Either Canon cannibalises it's 1 series, or Nikon and Sony do.

What do you think Canon prefers?

[Stealthy Ninja]

Either Canon cannibalises it's 1 series, or Nikon and Sony do.

What do you think Canon prefers?

Good point really.

What would Canon care. They just want money really (it is a business after all). I'd guess though. If the 5D mkII did "eat" the 1d. I guess they'd come up with the 1Dn MkIII... maybe.

[Sfordphoto]

gimme moar $$$ gimme mo4r canon1ds to 3475! (EATS)

[ceriltheblade]

"space between the pixels" - sounds like a cool sci fi matrix like film.....
anybody?
anybody?

[Stealthy Ninja]

gimme moar $$$ gimme mo4r canon1ds to 3475! (EATS)

m04r 1337 3475!!!11

[Trainboy]

1337 3475? More like delicious 8`/735!

[timbop]

a gripped, full weather sealed, 21 mp 5Dmk2 would cannibalize the $7800 1Ds MKIII. Don't you guys think those specs are improbable?

very much so. It's one reason why the disappointment will be felt so hard after so long. The d200 was weathersealed a long time ago, and yet the 50D only has "tighter tolerances" to keep the rain out. uh, yeah.

We all need to realize that Canon reserves the "pro" features for the 1 series. The 5d2 will have a great sensor, but "good enough" everything else. My real concern is the price - I really hope that they don't try to charge a premium over the d700 for the better sensor.

[Tee Why]

Well, sony released a 24mp full frame body with weather sealing and in built in IS for $2999 now. I bet that may get folks to think twice before dropping $7999 on a 1DsMIII.

Canon better wake up and get back into the race. Nikon and Sony has definitely caught up or surpassed them in some respects.

[jbuk1975]

Well, sony released a 24mp full frame body with weather sealing and in built in IS for $2999 now. I bet that may get folks to think twice before dropping $7999 on a 1DsMIII.

Canon better wake up and get back into the race. Nikon and Sony has definitely caught up or surpassed them in some respects.


apparently it has noticable noise even at iso 200 and lower dynamic range than most models on the market , the 1DsMIII by all intents is still the superior of the 2

[Tee Why]

Here is a direct comparison to a 5D (I think) from a preview on Luminous Landscape. The reviewer thinks the IQ/noise is very similar. Looking at the same comparison shots, I think they are close.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/a900-nr.shtml

[Colorblinded]

a gripped, full weather sealed, 21 mp 5Dmk2 would cannibalize the $7800 1Ds MKIII. Don't you guys think those specs are improbable?
Canon doesn't have the luxury to worry about cannibalizing their own sales. Other manufacturers will gladly do it for them.

Here is a direct comparison to a 5D (I think) from a preview on Luminous Landscape. The reviewer thinks the IQ/noise is very similar. Looking at the same comparison shots, I think they are close.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/a900-nr.shtml

I'm not terribly impressed by that comparison.

[elysium]

21mp? Bummer, there goes my dreams of not buying a new computer any time soon. Laptop barely copes with 12mb raw files. :lol:

[markofsoton]

the trouble is as a ids3 owner pointed out the other day, all his lenses apart from his L teles were outresolved by the sensor. imagine saving up for a 24-70/16-35/50 1.2 and a 5d2 and your images seeming soft when peeping even at f8, that would be rubbish.

[mattograph]

the trouble is as a ids3 owner pointed out the other day, all his lenses apart from his L teles were outresolved by the sensor. imagine saving up for a 24-70/16-35/50 1.2 and a 5d2 and your images seeming soft when peeping even at f8, that would be rubbish.

I've shot the 1Ds on two occasions with the 16-35, sharp as a tack.

I think someone is seeing dead people!:)

[markofsoton]

now i can't find the link. i'll get me coat

[Stealthy Ninja]

the trouble is as a ids3 owner pointed out the other day, all his lenses apart from his L teles were outresolved by the sensor. imagine saving up for a 24-70/16-35/50 1.2 and a 5d2 and your images seeming soft when peeping even at f8, that would be rubbish.

Well, the light that a good lens like the 24-70 would give to the sensor would be very good. If the cameras resolution is more than the lens can deliver, that only means your getting the best out of the lens. In other words VERY GOOD... another word is EXCELLENT.

Better than the opposite, spending so much on the lens and only getting part of what the lens can do.

Peeping is not the best thing to do anyway.

[zombieman]

Well, it looks like crivera (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/recent/crivera) was half right, half wrong.

Proclamations:
21 mpx - correct
DIGIC IV - correct (doesn't take a visionary)
14 bits - correct (ditto)
4 fps - correct
New anti aliasing filter - don't know
Announced in September - correct
In dealers in October - incorrect, on sale from November
Pro-body similar AF to the 5D - correct (same AF)
No video - incorrect
1 stop better ISO performance than the 50D - don't know yet

Anyway, he made the 50D: 15 mpx, 5DMk2: 21 mpx prediction on Aug 8, so I definitely think he has some credibility.

[Stealthy Ninja]

It also has sRAW1 and sRaw2 which gives you (approx) 10mp and 5mp files respectively.