Is Canon listening to the Pro's?

[cazray]

I was at the Athletics at Gateshead yesterday and me and the other half were in a great position, so great that we had the pro photographers coming up to our position and shoot behind us. Being the curious person I was drooling over their 400 2.8's and cameras etc. the first thing I noticed were a lot of Nikons but the most depressing thing I was hearing that some of the Canon guys were selling their Canon gear and buying Nikon D3's because they feel that Canon hasn't listened and that the D3 is better at high Iso and overall a better camera. Just wondered what you all feel about this.
Most depressing part was that I din't have the money on me as one of the guys was selling a low actuation 1d mk 2 for £800 and 400 2.8 for less than £3000 ahhhhhhhhh!!.

[DDWD10]

I noticed at the Arkansas State vs Texas A&M game last Saturday that 7/8 of the sideline photogs were using big white Canon lenses.

True, one could say Canon is in a slump right now since they haven't released any exciting pro bodies lately, but the new 50D certainly pushes the envelope in its respective class :)

This is a crop from a shot taken at 135mm waaay up on the top of the 3rd deck of Kyle Field.

[Luminodio]

whether or not Canon is taking the professional into account this year when it comes to their new body releases, does not make the 1D Mark II (or and 1D for that matter) any less of a body than it was the time it came out.

while the D3 is truly a great camera, it is only as good as the photographers who uses it to take pictures. yes, it does have an incredible usable ISO range but you must remember that no 1D slouches in this area either.

if extreme low-light shooting is of significant importance to you and you shoot mostly on the wide angle end, then the D3 may be a better choice for you. however, judging from your mention of telephotos lenses, i think you're better set with the 1D Mark II as Nikon really does not have many affordable telephotos.

it's all subject to your shooting style and preference.

[Luminodio]

I noticed at the Arkansas State vs Texas A&M game last Saturday that 7/8 of the sideline photogs were using big white Canon lenses.

bear in mind that Canon is not the only company that white bands their telephotos. however, it is no surprise if they were to be Canon's seeing as they truly rule when it comes telephotos -- super or not.

[gjl711]

Photokina will tell. I'm still suspecting that a MkIIIn is coming.

[Luminodio]

Photokina will tell. I'm still suspecting that a MkIIIn is coming.
really!? now, i am speculating a new 1D, but not an extension of the III like an 'N' model. the 1D Mark III was a 1.0, not matter what anyone else says and i feel that a new 1D body will be very much the same.

interesting to hear someone holding tight for an N...very.

[pknight]

bear in mind that Canon is not the only company that white bands their telephotos. however, it is no surprise if they were to be Canon's seeing as they truly rule when it comes telephotos -- super or not.

Those are certainly Canons in the photo he provided.

Also, going back a couple of weeks, there was a lot of talk about all of the non-white lenses at the Olympics, assumed to be Nikons. Sports Illustrated had a photo of scores of photographers crowding around Michael Phelps hugging his mother after the 8th medal. A lot of those black lenses could clearly be seen to be Canons. There were some Nikons, but they were a small minority.

[Luminodio]

Those are certainly Canons in the photo he provided.

Also, going back a couple of weeks, there was a lot of talk about all of the non-white lenses at the Olympics, assumed to be Nikons. Sports Illustrated had a photo of scores of photographers crowding around Michael Phelps hugging his mother after the 8th medal. A lot of those black lenses could clearly be seen to be Canons. There were some Nikons, but they were a small minority.

basically we're both saying the same thing: don't be racist, color doesn't necessarily dictate what company dished them out. however, it can be good for confirmation of suspicions if other characteristics are noted (red band, push n' pull hood, ect.).

[dave kadolph]

No--IMO

Over on Sportsshooter the crowd seems to be moving to the dark side--lots of moving to Nikon for sale threads.

And 2 of the longest standing Mods here are considering a switch.

Several more sports based shooters here have already made the switch.

If you don't take care of your customer base--someone else will ;)

As an advanced amateur I'm staying---but my images don't pay my bills;)

[CanonHowitzer]

Sorry, but I don't understand the idea in this thread that long time Canon pro photographers are moving to Nikon.

Whenever I take a look at Nikon and at Canon, while considering which side to be on, I always come up against the fact that Canon offers a wider selection of useful, quality lenses.

What am I overlooking?

Tks.
:)

[TheHoff]

What am I overlooking?

That as a pro sports shooter you need 3, maybe 4 lenses total and both Nikon and Canon make them.

(16-35, 85, 70-200, 400 or 14-24/17-35, 85, 70-200, 400)

[_aravena]

Here's what I don't get? Are these new bodies really producing that better an image? What about all those photos they sold before with their cameras?

[Luminodio]

That as a pro sports shooter you need 3, maybe 4 lenses total and both Nikon and Canon make them.

(16-35, 85, 70-200, 400 or 14-24/17-35, 85, 70-200, 400)

hoff is spot-on once again. however, Nikon does suffer from a lack of quality AF-S primes and telephoto primes at a decent price.

another thing a lot of people have been noticing lately is Nikon's lack of 4.0 constant aperture lenses. this cuts out a lot of affordable lenses that really could contribute greatly to their line.

their wide angles have an incredibly good reputation from corner-to-corner.

something Canon also needs to seriously address, in my opinion.

[blonde]

Here's what I don't get? Are these new bodies really producing that better an image? What about all those photos they sold before with their cameras?

what you don't get is that even at that level, there is fierce competition and photographers need to keep up in order to sell. for example, if there is a strong move to 14bit files, cleaner 1600 ISO or more, better batteries, better focus systems etc... than the pros will need to move on with the times or else they will be left behind.

what once was a great image can be considered average in our time. noisy as hell images at 1600ISO might be a serious problem today when the new generation of cameras can do fairly clean images at that ISO.

so, if the pros feel that Canon currently doesn't have any reliable bodies that can give them what the guy next to them gets, guess what, they will start looking at other options.

[Luminodio]

Here's what I don't get? Are these new bodies really producing that better an image? What about all those photos they sold before with their cameras?
in some cases, it's more money than brains. for others, it's the frustration with quality control and the lack of consideration for professional and those aspiring to be such. in other cases, could be just the inner gear head in them.

good gear does induce some confidence, you know.

however, this is where the argument of "what is to say the gear they used before is no longer any good?"

my answer: "i don't know, you'd have to ask them."

my situation for selling all my gear is entirely different.

[_aravena]

Oh I know. I'm more comparing the use of MkIIIs to DX3's and whether the same shot is actually that much better of after 500% they see the diff and snap their fingers going "Aw man!" :rolleyes:

[Vascilli]

This is good for me because I'm more than happy with say a 1D III, 70-200, and 300 for say... $1000?

(Heh..)

[dave kadolph]

than the pros will need to move on with the times or else they will be left behind.

so, if the pros feel that Canon currently doesn't have any reliable bodies that can give them what the guy next to them gets, guess what, they will start looking at other options.

A bit of selective editing--sorry

But the point is--if you're not the lead dog your view never changes

[mattograph]

Switching from one brand to another is never free.

I know a lot of pros, that shoot both Nikon and Canon, and most of them are not so liquid that they could just sell all of their gear to totally start up with another system.

What would be the point? Six weeks from now, the shoe may be on the other foot?

No doubt some folks are switching. I figured out one day, and if I were to get top dollar for all of my gear, It would still cost me $6000 to switch to Nikon.

[Luminodio]

Switching from one brand to another is never free.

I know a lot of pros, that shoot both Nikon and Canon, and most of them are not so liquid that they could just sell all of their gear to totally start up with another system.

What would be the point? Six weeks from now, the shoe may be on the other foot?

No doubt some folks are switching. I figured out one day, and if I were to get top dollar for all of my gear, It would still cost me $6000 to switch to Nikon.

you are correct, but some professionals are willing pay to keep their name rather than pass the torch over to those who don't have to deal with performance issues that they do almost every day.

i think the professionals at times, are paying for ease of mind.

p.s.
i absolutely love your signature, man. for you to be able to make me laugh in the time that i am in...that's priceless.

[mattograph]

you are correct, but some professionals are willing pay to keep their name rather than pass the torch over to those who don't have to deal with performance issues that they do almost every day.

i think the professionals at times, are paying for ease of mind.

p.s.
i absolutely love your signature, man. for you to be able to make me laugh in the time that i am in...that's priceless.


Thanks for the shoutout on the sig. Looks like that's that bandwagon Canon's on...

[Luminodio]

Thanks for the shoutout on the sig. Looks like that's that bandwagon Canon's on...

i agree entirely. i think with this micro-lens technology they are justifying the MP cramp onto smaller sensors to serious hobbyists and knowledgeable amateur (i know i said this in a thread somewhere...probably the 50D one.) who would otherwise, look away from such an immense amount of pixels on an APS-C sensor.

now, the question is...will they carry over this technology into more prosumer and professional bodies or are they narrowing their scope?

::has to stop ending his posts in questions no one can answer::

[pknight]

I remember back in the 1980s, when PC Magazine reviewed the 16-Mhz 80286 CPU. The adjective they used to describe it was "screamer." They speculated that the processing speed wars were over, that there was no way to cram any more circuits onto a piece of silicon, and that the 286 was the end of CPU evolution.

They were full of it, and certainly should have known it. When I hear people say that there is some limit to the MP count on camera sensors unless you want IQ to go in the toilet, I have to wonder if they have a PC with a 286. Technology WILL change in ways that we can't even imagine, and and Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. etc. are not sitting around resting on their laurels, despite what it may seem from our myopic standpoint. If the 50D does get 1 to 2 stops better high ISO noise control than the 40D with 50% more MP, I will not be surprised, and I will expect even better performance in the future.

[Maureen Souza]

Some of this is just ridiculous. Canon vs. Nikon has been ongoing since I was a kid. Both companies make wonderful products and both companies have their share of problematic equipment.
It isn't just the equipment that makes the shot. It's an eye, an understanding and a passion.

I have seen some remarkable work posted on this forum with a Rebel XT and kit lens.

Heck, this was taken witha P&S.

[mattograph]

Some of this is just ridiculous. Canon vs. Nikon has been ongoing since I was a kid. Both companies make wonderful products and both companies have their share of problematic equipment.
It isn't just the equipment that makes the shot. It's an eye, an understanding and a passion.

I have seen some remarkable work posted on this forum with a Rebel XT and kit lens.

Heck, this was taken witha P&S.

Was that a Nikon P&S? I only ask, because, well, I was thinking of switching from Canon.....:)

[Luminodio]

Some of this is just ridiculous. Canon vs. Nikon has been ongoing since I was a kid. Both companies make wonderful products and both companies have their share of problematic equipment.
It isn't just the equipment that makes the shot. It's an eye, an understanding and a passion.

I have seen some remarkable work posted on this forum with a Rebel XT and kit lens.

Heck, this was taken witha P&S.
if only publishers were nearly as philosophical and understanding as you and others who do this out of passion and pure interest.

they will look for any means to denote the quality of your work so that it can be turned over at a lower cost. this is how it is for free-lance photographers, for most part.

[Colorblinded]

Are they or are they not? I don't know if we'll really know until the end of this year or early next. This back and forth has gone on forever though, Canon had the one up on Nikon for a while by a larger margin than any advantage Nikon may have over Canon right now. Having used the D3 it's a great camera, but I wouldn't be tripping over my heels to switch to it right now. I always thought people who flipped back and forth between the brands so quickly were a bit silly. I can certainly understand switching in many cases as there's really no point to brand loyalty, but some people just have to have the shiniest new toy.

If nothing comes from Canon by early next year to really bump the 1 series, then maybe Canon isn't listening. The current Mark IIIs may not technically need updating but public opinion is that they do so perhaps Canon should replace one or both.

[narlus]

And 2 of the longest standing Mods here are considering a switch.

who are they?

[Luminodio]

Are they or are they not? I don't know if we'll really know until the end of this year or early next. This back and forth has gone on forever though, Canon had the one up on Nikon for a while by a larger margin than any advantage Nikon may have over Canon right now. Having used the D3 it's a great camera, but I wouldn't be tripping over my heels to switch to it right now. I always thought people who flipped back and forth between the brands so quickly were a bit silly. I can certainly understand switching in many cases as there's really no point to brand loyalty, but some people just have to have the shiniest new toy.

If nothing comes from Canon by early next year to really bump the 1 series, then maybe Canon isn't listening. The current Mark IIIs may not technically need updating but public opinion is that they do so perhaps Canon should replace one or both.
i love my 1D Mark III and i am very sad to sell it. then again, i'm not switching -- just lost all ambition...

i agree with you that constantly switching between brands is somewhat silly, especially if one has treated you well. however, i think most of our switchers right now have been waiting a long time for something and in turn, have been only disappointed year after year.

i only speak in period of two years though and yes, i am referring to mid-ground full-frame upgrade to the 5D. i'm sure that's what most people are getting itchy over. that, and the last 1D has AF issues in the beginning and has further suffered the dawn of a stigma and will carry it until it's model's end.

i haven't heard too many unintellectual opinions in this thread so i don't think we're talking about compulsive switcheroo'ners. then again, that's just my .02USD being said.

[Edgar in ATL]

Maureen is absolutely tack sharp as usual.

[Luminodio]

who are they?
writing up the blacklist for Canon? :p

[Belmondo]

who are they?

Me, for one.

Understand, my decision to switch is based solely on my dissatisfaction with Canon in their handling of the MK III debacle, and their dealings with one particular person. If they do what they should, I won't be going anywhere. I should also mention that my Mk III works fine, so that's not what's pushing me to the 'dark side.'

[Luminodio]

Me, for one.

Understand, my decision to switch is based solely on my dissatisfaction with Canon in their handling of the MK III debacle, and their dealings with one particular person. If they do what they should, I won't be going anywhere. I should also mention that my Mk III works fine, so that's not what's pushing me to the 'dark side.'
:eek: the Canon Stasi is coming!

on a more serious note, i agree entirely with you on the Mark III. i love mine and as i have said here already, it is not the reason i am selling it or the rest of my gear.

it's a little deeper than that.

i lost my muse for photography -- no switch to the "darkside" for me.

if i do somehow find the ambition to do photography again further down the road; i will honestly be giving both sides a fair look.

[Belmondo]

:eek: the Canon Stasi is coming!

on a more serious note, i agree entirely with you on the Mark III. i love mine and as i have said here already, it is not the reason i am selling it or the rest of my gear.

it's a little deeper than that.

i lost my muse for photography -- no switch to the "darkside" for me.

if i do somehow find the ambition to do photography again further down the road; i will honestly be giving both sides a fair look.


Yeah. I'd really like to sell everything and buy a motorcycle. Since my wife won't have any part of that, buying a Nikon is about as dangerous as I'm allowed to get.:lol:

[digadv]

Thread belongs in the 'talk about photography' forum - not here.

[Belmondo]

Thread belongs in the 'talk about photography' forum - not here.

Good point. Thanks.

Moving it now.

[Maureen Souza]

Was that a Nikon P&S? I only ask, because, well, I was thinking of switching from Canon.....:)

Nope...I own all Canon equipment. Always have, always will.

(Now that I am old I am not willing to learn a whole new system;))

Maureen is absolutely tack sharp as usual.
:o:o:o Thank-you!

[fubarhouse]

I went to the Mogo Zoo the other day, great little zoo full of amazingly rare animals, and All I saw was P&S cameras, and Canon 100-400L's, one of which included mine :P

The Pro's? I still see only Canon guys and gals at sporting events... Maybe those photographers are so hungry for new equipment they can't wait, is there any REAL benefit from upgrading if you've already spent so much on your gear and you have yesterday's best DSLR? They are wasting money.

[mrklaw]

how quickly do pros switch?

eg the D3 has come along with good high ISO. but presumably the next canon pro body will catch up. Do they switch that quickly - are the results that noticable so quickly that they can recoup their costs?

and if canon do catch up 12 months later, do they switch back for the lenses?


surely this tech race is continuous and back-and-forth. So changing everytime a new feature comes out is expensive and impractical?

I could understand if they were all shooting 5Ds and the D3 came out, but the 1DIII isn't that old.

[fubarhouse]

If I was such a pro making that much money, I would slowly invest in the best of both brands.
No need to switch brands, no real need to get new lenses, and most of all, only ever having to worry about getting lenses.

[primoz]

Gee guys try to understand one thing. When you are pro, things are different. It's not about having most fancy equipment, it's not about having newest equipment, and it's not about having whole collection of lenses, preferably also from other manufacturer.

It's simply about earning money. Now when you buy 4 cameras (2 Canon and 2 Nikon) instead of 2 cameras only, you are about $10.000 down. Now this means you need to work quite a bit to earn those $10k you spent extra (plus another $20k or so for lenses), and even then you are still only on zero. Without spending this "extra" money, you can have $10k in your pocket on the end of the month.

So most pros, not just freelancers but even agencies, but gear which we need for our work. It might not be top of the line, it might not be newest, and we might not have complete collection of lenses Canon ever made, but we have equipment which we need to make our clients happy. It's not about spending months to get perfect shot, it's about getting shot which is good enough (good enough doesn't mean perfect) for client. That's it.

Noone is switching sides because at the moment Nikon has better gear. Those who are switching sides were thinking hard before they did switch, and they didn't jump next second Nikon put out D3. Simply because it means they will have less money on the end of month when they switch. And they did switch because they are sick of Canon handling things the way it did, and because with current gear it's hard to be sure you will do your best to make client happy. I mean you will do it, but will camera do it? Maybe, maybe not.

Before there wasn't this camera maybe thing, so everyone were happy... one or the other side. Now it's not so easy. And on top of that, things are a bit more complicated then someone might think. If you need to get new camera at the moment, you are pretty much screwed. 1dmk3 still doesn't work as it should, 1dmk2 is not for sale anymore, and noone knows what's next and more importantly when! And unfortunately I know this particular thing very well, because I need to decide what to do... we need few new cameras but I have no idea what to do... all I know is that I don't want to go with 1dmk3, but I don't know if I have many other chances.

With hobby shooters things are different. Spending money for newest toys is exactly that... spending for toys and hobby. For something what makes you feel happier. So getting new body or lens is something you don't need to put into economics frame, you don't need to calculate when you will get this money back. This money is gone, but you feel happy after it. For me it's same with skis or mtb. I buy it to use it, and I change them way before I would need to. Because I just want to have different color mtb, not because it would be so bad I couldn't ride anymore. So it's much easier to change it. :)

PS: Sorry for long rant :)

[Luminodio]

Gee guys try to understand one thing. When you are pro, things are different. It's not about having most fancy equipment, it's not about having newest equipment, and it's not about having whole collection of lenses, preferably also from other manufacturer.

It's simply about earning money. Now when you buy 4 cameras (2 Canon and 2 Nikon) instead of 2 cameras only, you are about $10.000 down. Now this means you need to work quite a bit to earn those $10k you spent extra (plus another $20k or so for lenses), and even then you are still only on zero. Without spending this "extra" money, you can have $10k in your pocket on the end of the month.

So most pros, not just freelancers but even agencies, but gear which we need for our work. It might not be top of the line, it might not be newest, and we might not have complete collection of lenses Canon ever made, but we have equipment which we need to make our clients happy. It's not about spending months to get perfect shot, it's about getting shot which is good enough (good enough doesn't mean perfect) for client. That's it.

Noone is switching sides because at the moment Nikon has better gear. Those who are switching sides were thinking hard before they did switch, and they didn't jump next second Nikon put out D3. Simply because it means they will have less money on the end of month when they switch. And they did switch because they are sick of Canon handling things the way it did, and because with current gear it's hard to be sure you will do your best to make client happy. I mean you will do it, but will camera do it? Maybe, maybe not.

Before there wasn't this camera maybe thing, so everyone were happy... one or the other side. Now it's not so easy. And on top of that, things are a bit more complicated then someone might think. If you need to get new camera at the moment, you are pretty much screwed. 1dmk3 still doesn't work as it should, 1dmk2 is not for sale anymore, and noone knows what's next and more importantly when! And unfortunately I know this particular thing very well, because I need to decide what to do... we need few new cameras but I have no idea what to do... all I know is that I don't want to go with 1dmk3, but I don't know if I have many other chances.

With hobby shooters things are different. Spending money for newest toys is exactly that... spending for toys and hobby. For something what makes you feel happier. So getting new body or lens is something you don't need to put into economics frame, you don't need to calculate when you will get this money back. This money is gone, but you feel happy after it. For me it's same with skis or mtb. I buy it to use it, and I change them way before I would need to. Because I just want to have different color mtb, not because it would be so bad I couldn't ride anymore. So it's much easier to change it. :)

PS: Sorry for long rant :)
keep in mind that some professional photographers here also do it out of passion and love for what they are doing. so that passionate part can come into play with having the right tool for the right job and something on the side that makes them happy.

it can be said globally that everyone takes the same approach to professional photography, whether it is for an agency or freelance. everyone has their own approach and while you may not see it something that is economically viable, it may be them paying for "peace at mind." not to mention, the market of freelance photography varies in competitiveness almost by geographical region it seems to me.

on another note, the 1D Mark III just carries a bad name from early adopters who got hit hard by Canon's poor quality control. your cautiousness is the perfect example of this stigma that has been placed on this body's name. you don't want to pay for a 1D Mark III because you are afraid you may always carry this fear that it isn't focusing right at the time you need it most. hence, you are looking for an alternative so you can have "peace at mind."

so what is there really to be said now that is any different than what other have already? pretty much this:

Canon needs to listen to their subscribing professionals and stop blaming every issue they can't reanimate themselves as "user error."

that being said, i love my Mark III but i know of others who have bad experiences with them (one even to this day). it's just a matter of quality control on Canon's part (or lack thereof). not to mention, the 1D Mark III was a v1.0 camera, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. it strayed from the 1D and 1D Mark II function set and layout and that may've been when Canon put too much on their plate and looked over the littlest of things initially (such as the sub-mirror assembly).

p.s.
it's okay, we all have our moments. :P

[cazray]

Firstly sorry for putting it in the wrong place wasn't too sure. But it does look like there is a very large question after all why are they changing I'm a hobbyist who makes a couple of quid from selling local cricket pics and my 30d combined with my 120-300 works for me though I'd've loved the mark 2 if I had the cash..Other half is happy with his 30d and 100-400 for wildlife you've seen his pics Kestrel55.
It was just what these guys were saying and I managed to have a nose at the D3 as 5 of them had them and there was the 6 guys who said they were changing and one who advised his bosses to change as their cameras were now knackered.

[Tixeon]

Good point of view primoz. I agree 100% & you said it better than I could have.

[primoz]

keep in mind that some professional photographers here also do it out of passion and love for what they are doing.
I agree. Personally I still love photography and for most of time I don't consider it just a job, but something I love to do. But nevertheless money issues are important. It's easy, or at least easier, to buy new camera if your income depends on something totally different.
As far as 1dmk3 is concerned, I don't have bad feeling just because of rumors. I personally saw and use 4 of them, with dot without dot with I don't know what, and none was working (it really does matter what you shoot and what's your shooting style... mk3 obviously doesn't like mine). Really good friend of mine who happens to be chief photographer of one of bigger North European agencies tested more then 20 of them and all failed. Galbraith wasn't all that happy with latest ones either, so I don't know. Maybe now it's really just bad feeling, but it's too much money to invest (it's not just one camera I'm talking about) for something what I'm not sure about. Not to mention that fear you are talking about. It's stressful enough when shooting on tight deadline, so another thing to worry about is not really all that welcome :) But I guess on the end, we won't have much other chances either, and we will have to bite into this. Unless announcement for 1dmk4 will come soon :lol:
But just as you wrote... Canon should handle things better, and I guess most of us would somehow understand problems are normal nowadays and mistakes do happen. But when being handled this way, people lose patience and trust.

[Croasdail]

I changed, and now keep two kits. For field sports I still shoot Canon - I am not going to reinvest on big glass again. On the other hand, for indoor shooting, I have moved over to almost exclusively Nikon. I have a regular budget I spend to upgrade my equipment. It just so happened that this time around my indoor stuff was needing refreshing and I moved to Nikon. I still have all my Canon gear, and am hopeful that the next what ever from Canon fits my needs for field sports. It would be a huge reinvestment to change out the big lenses... and I don't want to do it.

But to the main question, do I think Canon is listening.... the answer in my mind is no. They seem more obsessed pushing the megapixal war rather than refining image quality and dynamic range.

[Persephone]

who are they?

CyberDyneSystems has mentioned it, I don't know who the other one is though.

[dave kadolph]

CyberDyneSystems has mentioned it, I don't know who the other one is though.

See post # 32 this thread ;)

[mattograph]

Yep. That makes two!

[Luminodio]

CyberDyneSystems has mentioned it, I don't know who the other one is though.

the Canon stasi is writing up the blacklist as we speak!

[Luminodio]

But just as you wrote... Canon should handle things better, and I guess most of us would somehow understand problems are normal nowadays and mistakes do happen. But when being handled this way, people lose patience and trust.
i couldn't agree with you more on that. all i can really say to further the point that i agree is...

+1