Need Help with Lighting Purchase

[triangle]

Hello, I would like some suggestions before I make my first studio light (portable) purchase. I have read through many threads and have narrowed down my choices. But would like other input before I spend my $$$.

I am shooting with a DRebel and do have the 580/ex flash. The subject's I will be shooting will be primarily people (single, family, and group shots), also I was asked about shooting some cabinets for a local business. With that in mind here is my question.

I did consider purchasing more Canon flashes to use as slaves (probably 580's), but I do not think it will give me enough lighting for what I will be doing. That is the conclusion I came to after reading posts. Am I wrong here?

What I am leaning towards is purchasing 2-3 studio lights with umbrellas, but this is where I am unsure of. I have looked at the Alien Bees $599 package and have scaned through B&H with not much success. I am lost when narrowing a purcahse from them.

Can someone advise me on watts, brands, and such for the subjects I will be shooting. I know that I do not want continous lighting because of the heat. I really would rather keep my cost below $600 if possible. If someone can direct me to a B&H package that is good quality for that price range I would appreciate it. Any and all input will help. Thanks in advance.

[scottbergerphoto]

I started out with This (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=190519&is=REG) and added a third SP3200, a beauty dish and a softbox.
Scott

[Akreager]

i HAVE a TON OF fLASH EQUIPMENT, BUT i STARTED WITH SOME BASICS. I WOULD SUGGEST THE FOLLOWING:

TWO ALIEN BEES B800.............................................. ......................560
THREE HEAVY DUTY STANDS............................................ .................225
ONE 48x60 REFLECTOR WITH A LIGHT STAND MOUNT...............................100
ONE SET OF BARN DOORS............................................. ....................50
TWO BW REFLECTIVE/SHOOT THRU UMBRELLAS......................................60
ONE 8x16 DARK GREY COLLAPSABLE MUSLIN (YOU CAN LEAN AGAINST A WALL).140

.................................................. ...........................................$1135

I GUESS I BLEW YOUR BUDGET. THERE ARE SOME THINGS YOU CAN DO TO SAVE MONEY, BUT THIS IS THE MOST BASIC KIT THAT WILL GIVE YOU A MAIN, FILL, AND HAIR LIGHT. PROPER SET UP WILL ALSO ALLOW YOU TO GET SOME LIGHT ON THE BACKGROUND (THE DARK GREY WILL NOT NEED A LIGHT, BUT YOU MAY BE SETTING UP WITHOUT BACKGROUND).

I JUST REMEMBERED YOU ALSO NEED A FLASHMETER.

YOU COULD GO REAL BASIC AND GET CANONS ST-2E E-TTL CONTROLER THAT WILL ALLOW YOUR 580 TO BE USED OFF CAMERA, TWO LIGHT STANDS, AND A REFLECTOR WITH MOUNT. YOUR PRICE WOULD BE AROUND $400 AND YOU WILL GET BETTER RESULTS THAN ON CAMERA OR FLASH BRACKET WILL GIVE.

THE BEES GIVE YOU GOOD POWER AND ADJUSTABILITY. IF YOU GET SMALLER OR CHEAPER (LESS FEATURES - THEY WILL ONLY HAVE FULL, 1/2, 1/4 POWER NOT FULL SLIDER'S LIKE THE BEES).

IT IS FUN TO SPEND OTHERS MONEY.

[klynam]

I was right there with you a few weeks ago.

I finially decided on a fairly complete, older, used Novatron system off eBay. Just to show you what you CAN find with patience (I looked and bid on systems for a couple of months) here's what I got: 5 strobe heads (two were doa), a 960w/s pack, one synch cord, 3 softboxes (one didn't fit anything), 3 umbrellas, 4 light stands, 1 boom stand with casters, nice bogen bag for all stands, generic softside case for pack and heads (not original), 1 barn door, 1 gel holder, some old used gels, and one diffusion grid. I paid $700 for everything including shipping.

Basic Novatron kits in the 440w/s to 800w/s range, with three lights, pack, stands, umbrellas, and case, regularly go for under $600 on eBay. Small 240w/s to 400w/s two light kits (again with stands, umbrellas, and case) usually go for under $400. So that's right in your price range. Another good thing - maybe the best thing - about Novatron is the components are all very basic and comparitively inexpensive to repair if damaged.

Let me say here, I'm a total amateur. A real pro could probably make even my setup sing beautifully. But I have a long way to go.

Having said that, and having shot with my lights a few times now, the first and MOST important thing I have learned is this: only having a few combinations of light output power - via the switches on the pack and heads - totally SUCKS! I still have to move lights back and forth (inverse square rule of lighting?) to fine tune the light output for the exposure I'm looking for.

Were I back where you are now, I would get the INFINITELY ADJUSTABLE Alien Bees for $580 and start building a system correctly. You'll find the AB's are very well received by professionals and amateurs alike. Like everyone here (just about) says: you can't go wrong with the bees. But if you want to put yourself through the paces of learning classic strobe lighting techniques, get an inexpensive Novatron kit off eBay.

HLYRLR

[triangle]

I started out with This (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=190519&is=REG) and added a third SP3200, a beauty dish and a softbox.

Scott

Scott, I really like the looks of this set & the price is right. Do you have any pics that you have taken using this lighting that I can see? I browsed your site but could not find them. If you can post one I would appreciate it. Also, can you recommend an affordable light meter as well?

Also, I would like to thank the other posts as well. I really am hesitant on buying used equipment. For one I am reinvesting all of my money made from my pics back into the business (it is a side income). I like to have warranty if it does not work(when I am spending more than $100). Like some of you stated some of the items were broke or not usable. I would not be happy with that. I plan on writing off my expenses and sometimes I have found it hard to get a receipt on used items.

Also, a sidenote I am using a backdrop when needed. I purchased a nice 6-12 foot backdrop stand and used the "cheap lights" plan on my first shoot. I had a 500W constant construction light. My experience was horrible, it nearly cooked all of us in a decent sized room. Luckily I bought them at Wal-Mart and returned them. I also realized while I set-up that I was not very "professional-looking", I decided that would not happen again. I am an amateur trying to produce the highest quality photos and maybe one day I will be able to be considered a "pro". But I realize it will take hard work, money, and time. This forum has been invaluable to me. Thanks so much for the insights and willingness of others to share with us "wanna-bees".

[tim]

If you do go for slave flashes i'd consider getting 420s, or maybe 550s, not 580s, unless you have a very good reason to get 580s. You could even get simgas as slaves, even cheaper and they have a good reputation.

Disclaimer: I don't know much about lighting, just what i've read and worked out myself with my 550EX.

[WestFalcon]

If you are shooting cabinets such as kitchens, I learned a long time ago to shoot them with incandescent lamps to fill in the shadows. I shoot kitchens for an upscale kitchen company and tried using flash on my first kitchen....don't do it!!! It was a nightmare!! Now, I put my camera on a tripod and use cheap hardware store reflector floods to fill in shadowed areas. Most of my shots are at 1/4 second or slower and F8-f11. I get stunning 16x20's and they love em. You need a $50 canon remote release. I set my camera on tungsten(ASA 200-400) but you could also do them raw. I use White Lightning for other jobs which require flash(people pictures). I have an LCD TV with video in to view pictures on site. I can change my lights if needed after evaluating them on a tv screen.

[scottbergerphoto]

Sorry, I don't have shots from that set up on my site right now.
I reccommend the Sekonic L358 as a start up flash meter.
You can also fill in shadows with a couple of Morris Minislaves. You just drop them in corners and behind furniture.
Scott

[robertwgross]

Akreager, please don't post with all caps on. How many times do I need to type this?

---Bob Gross---

[mjordan]

I will second the Excalibur line of monolights. I have had the SP6400, SP3200 and SP1600 lights for about 4 years now. Even though the Alien Bees were not out when I bought them, if you look at the prices of the two systems (or any system) the Excaliburs still give you more flash for the buck, which is even more evident for beginners that need light stands and umbrellas. I wish I had gotten two SP6400's when I started with them rather than one of each though.

The SP1600 is good for a hair, background or fill light. I use a 16" wide beauty type reflector on it. I mostly shoot with softboxes on the other two lights (a 24x32 and 38" octogon type) but I also use everything from 32" umbrellas to 60" umbrellas. I've also used them with 6' by 4' light panels and reflecting off 4'x8' white cardboard panels.

I don't have any people shots on my web site, but I have used them mostly with dogs (I do a lot of dog portraits and dog show type photography). You can find some of my images on this page http://www.sitnprettyphoto.com/studio/studio.html under the Formal Dog Portaits section. All of these are when I first got them to a couple of years ago.

I also use and recommend the Sekonic L-358 flash/light meter. It's a great meter.

Mike

[triangle]

Thank you for the second vote Mike, those are some great shots of dogs! I am a dog lover, I enjoyed your other pics as well. The waterfall pics were stunning was that taken with a slow shutter speed and tripod?

Anyhow back on subject, I am interested in what will make all of this work with my Drebel. I do not have a PC terminal on the camera. So am I right in the following; I will need a hot shoe adapter? These are what I found at B&H Canon (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=search&Q=&b=8&shs=hot+shoe+adapter&ci=1&ac=&Submit.x=10&Submit.y=10) or General (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=135782&is=REG) ;
Will both work or what is the difference besides $$$? And then I need the sync cord (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=cart_accessories&A=details&Q=&sku=129726&is=REG&addedTroughValue=_&addedTroughType=accessory)correct? Am I missing anything?

[scottbergerphoto]

For me, the best route was to buy a set of Pocket Wizards. The Transmitter goes in the hot shoe and the receiver attaches to one of the strobes. The other strobes are set to slave.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=168584&is=REG

If you want to go the cord route, you need a hot shoe to PC connector. I suggest one by Wein with a built in Safe Sync to protect your shutter as the PC/hot shoe circuit is attached to the shutter.
http://www.omegasatter.com/v2/products/displayproduct.cfm?ProdID=2886
Scott

[triangle]

I wish I had gotten two SP6400's when I started with them rather than one of each though.
Mike

OK, after looking over the factors I am considering your above quote Mike. For $150 more I can double my wattage and you said you "wish" you had. I am thinking of holding out just a bit longer to come up with the difference if that is best. If I can ask you Scott, do you second that thought or do you still think your first suggestion will give me the power I need for my type of shooting?

I am getting orders daily, so maybe patience with as much information as I can swallow is my best route. I have jumped before when buying and "wish" I had made other choices as well. Also, I have to consider the cost of the attachments that I will need. I just looked at your post Scott and the Pocket Wizards you suggested look awesome. I am sure that would be well worth the money. The first "attempt" I had spoken of was at a daycare with kids everywhere. At the time, I did not have cords attached to my camera, but I still had to watch the tripod. I have had some other requests to do daycares, and I would rather them not trip and pull down all of my investments! I am going to sleep on this, it is too easy to jump when you have just enough $$$. But if I wait a few weeks, I may be alot happier with my decision. I will look for any replies tomorrow. Thanks again for the replies I am learning alot.

[WestFalcon]

I use the pocket wizards and they are flat out awesome. I used cords for 25 years and the pcoket wizards are more reliable and much more convenient.

[scottbergerphoto]

I work in a fairly small space and the 3200's work well for me. I wouldn't mind having the 6400's though. When I bought my lighting I was just starting out and the 3200's were in the right price range where I could buy three and the Sekonic L358.

An added advantage of the PW's is the $25 transmitter module you buy for the Sekonic L358 that goes in the battery compartment. Then you can trigger your strobes for metering with the meter.
Scott

[triangle]

OK, I have been thinking and reading over my manuals. I am interested in going wireless, it seems that will be the best and most convienient for me. The cost is something I am looking at and one other thing, which brings me back to my original question.

I have a 580/ex flash unit and bought it because of the capabilities. I can go completely wireless, with no additional hook ups staying with it. After reading Tim's comments on using the 420's instead of 580's, it made sense and is more affordable. I would have to purchase stands or use my backdrops stands that I have (assuming I am not needing them in the shoot). And purchase umbrellas, maybe softboxes for the flashes, etc. .

So here is the question; Will 2 420's as slaves, my 580 on Camera as master (probably bounced from ceiling), and some umbrellas or softboxes give me enough lighting to do portrait type work in a average sized room?

[scottbergerphoto]

OK, I have been thinking and reading over my manuals. I am interested in going wireless, it seems that will be the best and most convienient for me. The cost is something I am looking at and one other thing, which brings me back to my original question.

I have a 580/ex flash unit and bought it because of the capabilities. I can go completely wireless, with no additional hook ups staying with it. After reading Tim's comments on using the 420's instead of 580's, it made sense and is more affordable. I would have to purchase stands or use my backdrops stands that I have (assuming I am not needing them in the shoot). And purchase umbrellas, maybe softboxes for the flashes, etc. .

So here is the question; Will 2 420's as slaves, my 580 on Camera as master (probably bounced from ceiling), and some umbrellas or softboxes give me enough lighting to do portrait type work in a average sized room?
No. Umbrellas use up alot of light and the 420's won't cut it. You also won't have any Manual controls. I use 3 550EX's( Umbrella, background, camera hot shoe) and the subject has to be pretty close to the umbrella, about 6 feet.
Scott

[triangle]

Thanks Scott, that puts me back to your original suggestion. I believe the Excalibur's is the way I will head. That 6' is to close to work for me, and I will be shooting group shots as well. Thank you for all of the insight.

[iwatkins]

Also note that there are lot cheaper radio triggers than the Pocket Wizards which do actually work. I've a set which works perfectly well. The set I use is this one (http://www.studioflash.co.uk/TXRX02.htm) which I'm sure is sourced from the States anyway. However, you don't get the ability to trigger from a Sekonic etc. though.

I'll probably end up with pocket wizards in the end, but really don't like the idea of having that great big "thing" sticking out of the top of my hotshoe. :)

Cheers

Ian

[brivett]

This might be of interest....

www.studioflash.co.uk (http://www.studioflash.co.uk/) are offering a discount to P.O.T.N. forum members

Enter POTNCDPF as a discount code as you checkout and 10% will be deducted from your bill....

So you can get a TXRX02 set for less !

Enjoy

Barry !

p.s. they are not sourced from the states....

[mjordan]

Triangle, I'm sorry I missed the question you asked me back a few months until this was brought up to the top again. You asked about my waterfall pictures if I used a slow shutter speed. Yes, most of them were taken at around 1 to 4 second shutter speed. This lets the water flow show as a smooth motion. I also use a smaller fstop, about f16 for depth of field. It's sometimes hard to get a slow shutter speed and small fstop if there is much light, so I use a polorizer and try to get them early in the morning when it's cloudy if I can. Other wise I'd have to use neutral density filters.

Thanks for looking at my site and your comments. So have you bought any lighting yet? :D

Mike

[AprilShowers]

This forum has been invaluable to me. Thanks so much for the insights and willingness of others to share with us "wanna-bees".

[/size][/QUOTE]
Hey you are NOT a wanna bee. Take yourself seriously and others will follow suit! If you are reading anything in this forum you should consider yourself more than just a newbie, rookie or otherwise. Coming from someone that started out real real small, it takes a lot of steps and learning, constantly improving! Keep it up man!!