Goodbye and thanks for all the fish [Archive] - Canon Digital Photography Forums

neil_r

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 14:46

I have been a member and contributor to this forum since 21 January 2003 and have a posting average of 1.04 posts per day (775) total, a large number of these posts have been pictures but I have also shared ideas and tips, many of which have been well received and I have had numerous thanks both from within threads and via PM.

So why is it time to call it a day and say goodbye……..

Because this place has changed beyond all recognition, a few years ago most advice that was given was considered, accurate and useful, now anyone with an opinion or worse still people who are just plain wrong are posting as fact.

We continue to see the “I have a major shoot tomorrow, for which I am getting paid, please give me some tips" posts. In the past I have always had a chuckle at these and assumed that the poster was either daft or lying, last week this appeared in a thread, and I quote directly:-

Just managed to blag a job doing a brochure for a fashion company!

Only problem is that I've never done anything of the sort before!

I responded to this, pointing out that passing oneself off as a professional and charging for your work whilst at the same time looking for advice from this web site was unfair on the client and that you would not try that with brain surgery or flying an aircraft. The response I got was to be called a p**** (slang for penis) by the poster and a PM from a moderator telling me to stick to the rules.

The forum has changed; it is dominated by people who measure their worth by the volume of their posts not the quality of their content.

I will be sorry to leave some of you…

Marie it has always been a pleasure xxxx

sGu I would still appreciate meeting up (you can even drive the car )

CDS a real voice of reason even if the spelling was suspect

Pekka A special thanks to you, please appoint some European moderators as the place needs more balance.

Exhibition Engine is a fabulous piece of kit and I look forward to the next release

Thanks to the many of you who have been inspirational, amusing and a great help, but of late I find that the more I read here the more frustrated I get, so in the immortal words of Douglas Adams….

Goodbye and thanks for all the fish

pip pip

N
xxx

iwatkins

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 15:21

Neil,

Sorry to see a Brit leave, especially someone who actually makes a valued contribution here.

I agree with many of your sentiments, especially with regards to quality posting.

Anyway, don't be a stranger. My offer of using the studio still stands (should be ready in two weeks time), so you can always drop me a PM.

Take care.

Oh, and where is the naked flesh the subject line promised ? ;)

Ian

ilya

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 15:32

That's too bad. You were one of the good ones. I don't post much anymore for relatively same reasons - have to wade through too much noise. That and I'm just too busy.

pip pip to you.

PS: See this -
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1014&message=11948109

Curos

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 15:37

I noticed pretty much the same as you have, althought I still learn too much here to give it up completely. You'll be missed, good luck wherever you go.

Tom W

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 15:40

jO3

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 16:19

The whole reason I wanted to partake in this forum was because the user activity was so great. and now I see it starting to turn into other photo forums that I left for reasons like Neil stated above...

Sad to see you go, bro, and sorry I didn't get to know you better... But my personal advice? Just stay and continue doing what you're doing. Ignore the retards and continue giving your advice. Over time, you'll see that people will know that what you speak is truth over someone who has no experience in the given field... Let time take it's course, basically, is what I'm trying to say.

But if you really must leave, then I bid you a sad farewell. And I do hope to see you on POTN forums again one day. :(

BearSummer

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 17:33

Damn shame to see you go. Maybe you could just take a holiday, a couple of weeks away taking pictures, then come back refreshed. Tell you what, take a month, we'll see you in March.

Unfortunately it seems the way of forums, as they become more helpful they get a larger number of members, with more members the density of knowledge decreases and your signal to noise ratio starts going south. I must admit there are only so many "what lens should I buy" questions that you can stand, I try to limit myself to reading one per week.

Whatever you do, best wishes to you and hope to see you back at some point

Regards

BearSummer

Pekka

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 17:57

I hate to see anybody leave, but I especially hate to see one of the very knowledgeable, honest, and likeable people leave. And Neil, you're one of the exceptional ones here.

Maybe you should consider going into semi-lurk mode for a while.

Exactly what I was going to say. You are welcome any day to read and post, there is no reason to "leave". Actually, I refuse to delete you from user base :) If you feel bad, let things chill out for a week or a month and check back if you find any interesting discussions here. Let's not take this forum too seriously - if you need a break then have one.

All forums will have noise when they grow. You have here some excellent tools like "ignore user" which can make unwanted people disappear in your browser.

When a forum gets more and more posts there are always more and more good posts, too. In my view the glass is half full !

I responded to this, pointing out that passing oneself off as a professional and charging for your work whilst at the same time looking for advice from this web site was unfair on the client and that you would not try that with brain surgery or flying an aircraft. The response I got was to be called a p**** (slang for penis) by the poster and a PM from a moderator telling me to stick to the rules.

If this is so, then it is wrong and you and I know it. But I can't possibly know everything that is going on here so in case you feel you have not got justice PM me. Perhaps a moderator mixed user names there.

Scottes

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 18:22

Bodryn

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 18:30

I am pretty new to this forum and recently learned it was even given positive publicity by a print magazine recently. Sorry to hear things are not as they should be. When good people leave, the quality goes down. People with such experience and knowledge should not have to suffer at the hands of the ignorant and/or ill-mannered. I do enjoy this forum very much and have learned much more in a short time than I ever expected.

Neil, I hope you don't give up on the forum entirely; in any event, Godspeed.

mikesd

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 18:46

Pekka

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 18:56

When good people leave, the quality goes down.

I just have to comment on that sentence: some good people leave, many other good people come in. We are not irreplaceable and world does not run out of good people.

pcasciola

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 19:36

Did someone say nudity? I don't see any. Oh well, back to the EOS forum.......

But first, I want to express my gratitude to Pekka, CDS, Belmondo, Jim and Scott for all the work you guys do on this forum. I've only been a member for six months, and lurking on and off for about six months before that, and I've learned an absolutely incredible amount of information about all aspects of photography just from hanging out here all the time. POTN was part of the reason I decided on Canon over Nikon when I finally took the dSLR plunge. I'm also a member of FM, and a lurker on Sportsshooter where I hope to be a member some day, but POTN is still #1 as far as I'm concerned, and continues to improve every day.

theflyingkiwi

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 19:58

first off let me say that some of your posts have been enjoyable to read and some not. Just like anyone that post on a place like this. Take everything with a grain of salt. It is just some salts are bigger than others.

But it is always interesting tho when people ask for pricing information for something that they hope will turn in to more work. At some point a pro starts of in the same place, wondering what to charge. Does it matter where they get the info from. It is important for that person however to make sure that they are always professional, and conduct themselfs as such.

I am disapointed that you feel like you have leave because some people are try to make themself professional where from the post you can see they aren't.

I hope that you feel you can still add some important input to someone wishing to learn more about photography around here.

and Pekka is right (like when isn't he :) ) he is the godfather after all, and like any mob, once you are in, you can not leave :lol:

Moppie

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 20:29

These threads always amuse me.

A forum is its members, and neil_r you are one of the more experianceds and talanted photographers who has made POT.N such an amazing forum to be a part of.
All the things you have a problem with are simply a result of that, as Peka its all just noise and there are ways of filtering it out.

But don't think that just because there a few more members, and a few more posts to read it means the whole forum has gone down the gurgler. In the past few months I would have to say there has infact been quite an improvment in the quality of posts and threads.
Prehaps you need to go and view a few more differnt forums before you start making such sweeping generalisations about every single member here and our posting habits.

:cool:

Redbird_xo

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 21:35

I'm a relatively new member here, and, yes, I've read some responses that are incredibly helpful and some of them being awfully amiss. We have a choice to focus on the important and ignore the rest. We can't please or make everyone happy. Equally true is that we don't have to like everyone. Please look at it from the bright side and don't forgo this forum. :)

cactusclay

3rd of February 2005 (Thu), 21:48

Awww Neil r, don't go, well be good, we promise, you'll see, just give us one more chance and you'll see. Don't sweat the small stuff, and remember it's all small stuff.

dewmuw

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 03:37

Better to be on the inside of the tent p*****g out than on the outside p*****g in.

Neil, while I understand your sentiments, I feel there is an element of taking your ball home and refusing to play. I'd much rather you stayed and helped improve the forum, you have posted many helpful comments on some of my threads that I have really valued.

But if you are leaving, so long and be good.

I can't help wondering why you posted that you were leaving though - cri de coeur?

Andy_T

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 03:58

Lighten up ... :)

Best regards,
Andy

PS: Don't announce to early that you're leaving for good...
The week when the forum was down because of the attack showed me very clearly that reading the forum is more important to me than I had actually thought. But that might just be my view, YMMV :lol:

mikesd

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 05:05

I have been a member here for almost a year,and lurked around for several months prior to joining. Eight months ago I started a small photography company in my small town that has been successful far more than I imagined in such a short period of time. The one thing I did was after an unbelievable amount of research, was to dive into wedding photography head first which I agree was a risky move. I did for two main reasons, I knew it was something I would love to do and I had the confidence in myself to do the job. I now have five successful jobs under my belt and eight more weddings booked so I must not be totally horrible. The only reason I bring this up is during this period of time if you check my post, not once have I mentioned that I was going to start doing weddings and seeking advice. The reason being is that I knew I would get FLAMED for not being qualified and what a disservice I was doing to my clients. Havn't you seasoned pros out there ever been in the situation of jumping into a job with little or no experiance yet knowing you are good enough to get the job done. Not much gained in this world without taking a little risk. Personally I have no opinion on whether Neil stays or goes but I really dislike the attitude that has been shown to some members willing to put their neck on the line to become successful and ask for some advice along the way. How else does one become successful in anything?

cmM

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 07:54

I hate to see members leave, especially for reasons such as this.

Belmondo

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 08:23

Neil:
As you can see, you have many friends here.

Take a couple deep breaths, collect your thoughts, and go for a walk. If you still feel the same way afterwards, go in peace. You'll always be welcomed back.

Stay in touch.

Tom

Bodryn

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 13:36

I may become less active here myself. I am not a professional photographer and don't get the results you can get with a DSLR. As a result I feel a bit out of place in this forum and I don't have much opportunity to interact with others. I'm sure the professionals are tired of people with lesser skills and/or equipment trying to play catch-up. I see there are relatively few entries in the compact camera department and I see that oftentimes people that ask questions there don't get answers. I have learned a lot here but also I think there is an aspect of peer pressure here that makes a person feel like they need to spend thousands of dollars to get equipment that may not be necessary for their needs, just so they can get respect here. I think I'm fairly content with my S1 as long as I don't try to make my photos compete here. I've been a photography hobbyist for a very long time but it isn't the only thing in my life.

samdring

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 13:58

It always amazes me when someone can be insulted and then proceed to insult a bunch of non-related, relatively innocent people as they stomp their feet and whine.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out pal.

Oh deary me! We all get exasperated and many's the time when I felt like posting along the lines that Neil has. However, the beauty of life is that we all have different flash points, different thresholds, different levels of acceptability - long may that continue

marie

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 14:45

me too has felt the same at times. (I don't mean about the moderators http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif )
I guess we all dohttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif

don't go Neil

I'd miss your xxx

I mean pixhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif

tommykjensen

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 15:09

I can't help wondering why you posted that you were leaving though - cri de coeur?

Me too. These kind of posts are a bit strange I think.

On one hand it is considered polite to say good bye when leaving for example the workplace or home in real life. But in a discussion forum on the internet it is often considered rude or childish to say goodbye.

Scottes

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 16:03

But in a discussion forum on the internet it is often considered rude or childish to say goodbye.

If this had been a plain old goodbye, as in "I'm leaving for a bit, take care" then it would be different. It's another thing to stomp your feet, cry like a baby, and insult people on the way out.

Good riddance, in my opinion.

marie

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 16:59

CyberDyneSystems

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 17:26

If you stop in for a look Neil you have another PM from one of us annoying Mods :lol: ;)

I do hope you reconsider,.. you can be of great help to the members here and have the experience to do so ;)

One of the things we need to remember all the time is that these forums are here for us to help and share with others.

Bodryns post has me upset .... and a thread like this one and the thread that caused this controversy,. is exactly the sort of thing that I can see adding to somone like Bodryn's concern.

The line is obviously a fine one,. but if there are newcomers with questions and pros with answers,. it seems that forums like this is exactly where these people can come together and learn.

Pekka

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 17:30

it's not really

it's a cry of wanting to be able to express an opinion
maybe not being able to but wanting to say that .
and to be able to do so had to make it a 'farewell ' speech ?
because it wouldn't be allowed otherwise ?
http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif

if what was said now ( at the beginning of this post) wasn't saidhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif then someone else who loved and enjoyed all here has gone... unnoticed.... almost.
and that matters.
so the 'goodbye' has words which the person needed to say
and I for one wouldn't like to think someone was hurting and went very quietly
if the only problem was a communications one

it's nice to have all sorts of opinions
whether we agree with them or not is with us.
our attitude and how we take them , is our problem

maybe a place to really let rant is needed ?
but not to insult anything about each other or our different viewpoints

Wise words, Marie.

Ranting is always allowed on this forum and directly to me, too.

The problem in all communication here is that we are from different cultures, different ages, different backgrounds, we have different expectations of how we should be treated and our means and ways to express what we think varies a lot. Some are fluent in english some are not. If you have a wicked sense of humor it may translate to rudeness in written text. All these so called "problems" are what in my view makes forums like this a wonderful place - it lets us learn, meet new people from all over the world, share and get new ideas and improve and alter our ways to think. Coping with occasional confrontations can be taken as learning as well.

Think if thousands of photographers would gather on a marketplace, what would happen? Some get bonded, some find similar interests, some find those interests boring - some feel at home when answering same basic questions for every people, some hate that and start complaining. Lots of good knowledge is passed in southeast corner and most won't hear any of it because they are interested in testing lenses in northeast corner. A guy back there wants to know how to get pro and few seasoned pro's around him talk him out of it - meanwhile someone who just went pro (and would have lost to share about it) misses that discussion because his current interest is copyright issues and he attends a panel at the center stage. Someone shouts loudly at the macrotesting table and in a moment everyone's attention is turned there. After few moments things are back to normal because now someone has a new toy to show off - a lively discussion starts and few people with older model walk out rambling about "where does he get the money". A beautiful woman from Ireland calms then down with colorful photos decorated with pink poems...

This is that marketplace.

marie

4th of February 2005 (Fri), 18:30

(leaving me out of it but thank youhttp://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)

that is one wonderful speech Pekka.

for someone to start a forum like this in the first place
they had to have something very special
but to keep it in good order every which way... takes a superhuman

thank you sincerely for all you have done and are doing

Moppie

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 05:30

Bodryns post has me upset .... and a thread like this one and the thread that caused this controversy,. is exactly the sort of thing that I can see adding to somone like Bodryn's concern..

Its a little OT, but I can see where he's comeing from. The majority of members here are DSLR users, and I can see how someone might think its a DSLR biased forum.
I totaly disagree, and I might just start a thread about it :)

And thats a very nice anolgy Peka, its something thats true of every Forum.

Mills

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 08:21

If this had been a plain old goodbye, as in "I'm leaving for a bit, take care" then it would be different. It's another thing to stomp your feet, cry like a baby, and insult people on the way out.

Good riddance, in my opinion.

Well said. It has changed around here. We are still free to speak our minds. And most importantly, I still learn something almost every stop in. That, more than anything, remains true. And because of this forum, I have improved a a photographer. I am being considered for things (FFMOH Ceremony) that I truly believe I would not have been up to if not for the people and insights of this group. I have also been aggravated. I have made a comment when appropriate. Sometimes, however, commenting can just be piling on though.

KennyG

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 08:41

I know exactly how you feel Neil. My leaving a while back was triggered by personal attacks that ended up coming to my business mail box in quantity where I had to filter the users concerned at the server level. Very unpleasant and something that I did not expect here.

Unfortunately we are in an age where anyone with enough money can buy the latest and greatest equipment and set out to use it without the necessary talent. Just something to live with I'm afraid. They won't last when their clients see the end results, if they ever get that far.

To those that criticise Neil for wanting to give a reason for leaving, remember he has friends here that may want to know why he has suddenly gone off the radar screen.

Scottes

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 10:06

To those that criticise Neil for wanting to give a reason for leaving, remember he has friends here that may want to know why he has suddenly gone off the radar screen.

The way he described these reasons and the insults contained in his farewell leave much to be desired.

mikesd

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 10:17

Ken, it is always unfortunate when someone with the knowledge and expertise that Neil posesses leaves. The overall quality of the board suffers and hopefully there is always someone else to step in to fill that void. I do think what is a little bothersome though with Neil's parting comments, and maybe not intentional,is that pretty much the entire membership seemed to be classified as jerks. Although I have only been around a year and still feel like an outsider, I felt offended by the remarks immediatley after reading Neils post.

Belmondo

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 10:18

To those that criticise Neil for wanting to give a reason for leaving, remember he has friends here that may want to know why he has suddenly gone off the radar screen.

This is what I don't really understand. If he has friends here, why leave? Someone please explain how it is possible to just walk away from friends. And why do it in a way that insults so many people with whom he has never had a problem?

Maybe Neil is unhappy with the forum generally, but the event that precipitated his very visible departure was the result of a problem he had with just one member (and possibly a moderator doing his job). In hindsight, I would hope that Neil might admit that he shares at least some responsibility for contributing to that controversy. Some might even argue that he initiated it. Regardless, when he and the other member started exchanging personal insults and using inappropriate language, a moderator stepped in, deleted the offensive language, and reminded them both of the forum’s rules on the subject.

Even a person who has been a member for years and has thousands of posts is not exempt from the rules. Nobody is.

Does a person have the right to defend his honor? You bet! Just do it in open debate without resorting to personal attack. Lively discussions of differing viewpoints are wonderful things when they are done well.

I remain optomistic that Neil will be back, and Kenny, I'm grateful that you never really left.

KO_300D

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 10:34

The thing with Forums is that the majority of users don't know each other.

That said, it's easy to see how things can be misinterpreted. As Pekka said, someone who has a wicked sense of humor may easily be misunderstood and have a comment taken as rudeness.

A user who has registered in the last month, and has a total of 4 posts, then posts 'I've agreed to do a wedding and haven't done this before - help!' could quite easily be someone who has worked as a photographer for a number of years and is considered a pro in their particular field , but just hasn't done weddings before.

Don't be too quick to judge other people based on a few lines of text.

Anyway, there are filtering options in place for those who wish to use them, and then there's the option of choice:- if a thread annoys you from the first post, and the only response you'd give would be a negative one, then why even bother going out of your way to upset people? Just go back a level and read something that doesn't annoy you.
Echoing a previous post on this thread, nobody is born a professional photographer. Everyone has to start somewhere and this is a valuable place for those with an interest to begin.

Mills

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 10:45

This is what I don't really understand. If he has friends here, why leave? Someone please explain how it is possible to just walk away from friends. And why do it in a way that insults so many people with whom he has never had a problem?

Maybe Neil is unhappy with the forum generally, but the event that precipitated his very visible departure was the result of a problem he had with just one member (and possibly a moderator doing his job). In hindsight, I would hope that Neil might admit that he shares at least some responsibility for contributing to that controversy. Some might even argue that he initiated it. Regardless, when he and the other member started exchanging personal insults and using inappropriate language, a moderator stepped in, deleted the offensive language, and reminded them both of the forum’s rules on the subject.

Even a person who has been a member for years and has thousands of posts is not exempt from the rules. Nobody is.

Does a person have the right to defend his honor? You bet! Just do it in open debate without resorting to personal attack. Lively discussions of differing viewpoints are wonderful things when they are done well.

I remain optomistic that Neil will be back, and Kenny, I'm grateful that you never really left.

So now I take some time to look back on this and find out Neil Started It. Seems to me that crude and vulgar language got a long time member banned for a month. Another makes a horribly offensive comment to a new woman on the forum and gets removed, why did this not occur here? Seems like the word uttered in Neils case might have been the same one that made TQ unavailable for a month. Keep in mind I have always liked Neil and his work and hate like hell to see him go. In fact, I will say here, Neil, please stay. Rules should be applied fairly and evenly though. The Mods and Pekka break their butts for us and it would be better for everyone to act like adults. Again, criticism is good, but I always try to remember one thing, if you have nothing nice to say, you had better say it with respect.

CyberDyneSystems

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 12:00

To those that criticise Neil for wanting to give a reason for leaving, remember he has friends here that may want to know why he has suddenly gone off the radar screen.

If this is the case,.

I can hold my breathe here no longer while this "work of fiction" continues on.

This is the link to the thread in question.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=56170

Neil was not the subject of a personal attack, rather the perpitrator of one.

Yes,. he was "counterattacked" but he was the one starting the conflict,. and he did so based on pure misconception and assumption.

He assumes that Keyser is not a pro and therefore should not be allowed to undertake the task he has accepted.

Neil is not telling the truth here about the thread in question, so please take the time to read it before forming a further opinion of this situation;
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=56170

Here, in this "farewell" Neil claims the following;
I responded to this, pointing out that passing oneself off as a professional and charging for your work whilst at the same time looking for advice from this web site was unfair on the client and that you would not try that with brain surgery or flying an aircraft. The response I got was to be called a p**** (slang for penis) by the poster and a PM from a moderator telling me to stick to the rules.

His actual post was this;

This sounds like fun....... Tomorrow I think I will be a brain surgeon, and the day after I will have a go at being a pilot, anyone know any good web sites where I can get some tips?

There is a strong difference in these two peices of text,. The actual post is clearly an insult based on a false assumption of Keysers abilities and status as a pro.

Yes,. Keyser was in the wrong as well for his vulgar response,. but to say it was unprovoked is a joke.

When the thread degenerates to name calling the Mods did what we do,. remove language that is in violation of the forum rules and send PMs to both parties reminding them of the rules.

Neil is "quitting" because a Mod reminded him of the rules?

My god?
So we should not remind members of the rules when they are violated?

Neil then goes on to take this one act and claim it is symptomatic of a degeneration of the forum as a whole?

The ONLY degeneration of the forum present in this thread in question is Neil's childish and insulting behavior perptratred towards a fellow professional asking for advice on a new type of shoot.

Please note, also on page two,. Paul Busceta saying he is in the exact same boat as Keyser,. Is anyone here going to claim that Paul is a newbie with no clue for making such a statement?

Only somone who has no clue themslves what Paul is capable of.

Neil had no clue waht Keyser is capable of,. made the assumption and started to hurl the insults as a result.

This entire situation is 100% on Neil's doorstep. It was created by him, it was exacerbated by him,. and then it was finally concluded by him with this childish thread.

Flame away all,..

But please read the thread in question before jumping to conclusions.
I held my tongue for the first two pages of posts here,. despite the generalzations that were made, and the insult towards the entoire forum, it's mods and it's members as a whole,. but I can hold it no longer.

Read the thread and decide for yourselves.

CyberDyneSystems

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 12:09

Mills,

In all of the other instances you mention,. the member involved was a repeat offender,. in some cases to an alarming level. Without naming names,. one of the cases you mention involves a member who has violated more rules on this forum than all other members in the forums history combined.! :shock:

99% of the time no "action" is taken other than a simple PM asking a member to re-consider the forums rules,. usually accompanied by a link to the rules in question and a request to continue to abide by them.

In the extreme cases you mention,. steps like this were long since past being effective.

None of this has any bearing on Neil,. this was to the best of my knowledge the first such PM sent to Neil,. and it was done as a matter of course,. just part of our day attempting to keep the forum on track where the rules are concerned.

Cadwell

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 12:25

Read the thread and decide for yourselves.

Well I have done as you requested, and whilst the thread itself is no longer "intact" which makes reaching a full opinion rather difficult I would say the most sensible post I have seen to date on this whole matter is the one "mjordan" made at the bottom of the first page.

Curos

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 12:28

Only somone who has no clue themslves what Paul is capable of.

Neil had no clue waht Keyser is capable of,. made the assumption and started to hurl the insults as a result.

I agree with you for the most part, but I have one thing to say in Neil's defense. Keyser DID start off his post with

"Just managed to blag a job doing a brochure for a fashion company!

Only problem is that I've never done anything of the sort before!"

So I do think it was safe to assume he was not a pro...

mikesd

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 12:38

I agree with you for the most part, but I have one thing to say in Neil's defense. Keyser DID start off his post with

"Just managed to blag a job doing a brochure for a fashion company!

Only problem is that I've never done anything of the sort before!"

So I do think it was safe to assume he was not a pro...

Whatever Neil assumed, is there ever an excuse to reply to a post with such rudeness?

steven

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 12:42

I have read the referenced thread and up too Neil's post I would be unable to say if Keyser was a pro or not.
Everyone, even pro's, can start in a new area of photography.

BearSummer

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 12:55

If this is the case,.

I can hold my breathe here no longer while this "work of fiction" continues on.

This is the link to the thread in question.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=56170

Neil was not the subject of a personal attack, rather the perpitrator of one.

Yes,. he was "counterattacked" but he was the one starting the conflict,. and he did so based on pure misconception and assumption.

He assumes that Keyser is not a pro and therefore should not be allowed to undertake the task he has accepted.

SNIP

Flame away all,..

But please read the thread in question before jumping to conclusions.
I held my tongue for the first two pages of posts here,. despite the generalzations that were made, and the insult towards the entoire forum, it's mods and it's members as a whole,. but I can hold it no longer.

Read the thread and decide for yourselves.

I guess we are going to have to disagree on this one CDS, this is not a FLAME but just a difference of opinion, after following your suggestion of re-reading the thread it looks like Neil was sarcastic to Keyser about what he was doing. After checking the FAQ I dont see anything that prohibits sarcasm, if sarcasm is now prohibited from this forum then there are a lot of english members who are going to have to bite their tongues, me amongst them. We obviously cant read what Keysers reply was, but i really dont think that you can blame Neil for this. If Keyser is a pro, which none of his posts suggest then he obviously is not a pro with regards to the subject he's being asked to photograph, and he says as much himself. I guess it's all water under the bridge now and I can understand why Neil is leaving as he no doubt feels that he is the wronged party. Oh well our loss

Regards

BearSummer

Mills

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 13:10

marie

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 14:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyser Soze
Just managed to blag a job doing a brochure for a fashion company!

Only problem is that I've never done anything of the sort before!

This sounds like fun....... Tomorrow I think I will be a brain surgeon, and the day after I will have a go at being a pilot, anyone know any good web sites where I can get some tips?

N
__________________
Neil

http://www.ambrosiabbs.com (http://www.ambrosiabbs.com/)

I'm dying a slow death here.
one minute I see one friend saying something
then I see another friend saying something the opposite
and I am torn between friends

if I had let ...what was said to me at certain times over the past two and a half years... get to me
I would be long gone
(stop that cheering enemies I can hear you )

:lol:

but I value all the rest of the people and what the forum is about to let someone try to break us up

I only just read what was said initially on that url posted in the above post

my other remarks on this post were just my instinct responses
knowing what I do of Neil.
I found it very hard to say anything as a lot of friends are on this post
with various views

I knew nothing at the time of writing
of what went on before.

and then when I heard about it I never read it
as I had not the time
and also, again, my instinct told me that there was no need to

but instincts can be wrong at times
so now I just read it

:confused: :shock:

we have big problems.
I think this remark really is very funny. even if it is a little sarcastic
it is funny.
it needs to be there in the middle of the good advice
to bring some down to earth

didn't we all get belted around in different ways to make us grow up a little.
even as grown ups?
we still need it now and again

I wish I could see the bad language which was used as I am at a loss to see which wins hands down.
all I can make out is that the other fellow started the bad language and that to me is where the core of all this lies. :confused:

vwpilot gave the best reply to Neils on that post *

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil_r
This sounds like fun....... Tomorrow I think I will be a brain surgeon, and the day after I will have a go at being a pilot, anyone know any good web sites where I can get some tips?

N

* This is the best advice in this thread. I hope you can see the advice through the sarcasm. *
__________________
SportsShooter portfolio (http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=886)
SpeedArena (http://www.speedarena.com/)
Motorsports Imaging (http://www.motorsportsimaging.com/) for all your motorsports photograhy needs.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/buttons/report.gif (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/report.php?p=397342)

Exactly.
thats all it was

but seemly a reaction of bad language came then from the poster:rolleyes:
(and I can't see it:cry: )
but Neil then reacted to that.

difficult not to from what I gather
(must have been juicy):lol:

(and I can't see it:cry: )

:cool: :cool:

just shoot the *&%$$ magazine.

best advice ?

'keep cool'

:confused:

Scottes

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 14:27

...it looks like Neil was sarcastic to Keyser about what he was doing.

Neil was not the subject of a personal attack, rather the perpitrator of one.

CDS summed that up fairly well.

Bruce Watson

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 15:41

Anyone that resorts to foul language, regardless of who said/did what first, should be warned.

That is what happened. No one was asked to leave or punished.

Kudos to CDS and the other Moderators in trying to keep the foolishness under control, and especially to Pekka for being very tolerant with the many guests that enjoy his forums.

That is the point; it is his forum, we are here as non-paying guests.

If you went to someone's home and started a verbal arguement with another guest that culminated in crude and vulgar language, what would you expect the host to do?

For myself, I am grateful that we have very tolerant moderation imposed on us.

This list is a great service to photographers of all skill level and most members go out of the way to help each other.

If Neil chooses to leave over his perceived slight, he is free to do so. But the risk with sarcasm is getting a response in kind, and he took that chance.

No one else, including CDS, is reponsible for that.

The Moderators stepped in when it started to go downhill.

Neil, I will join in with the chorus of others who ask you to stay, but if you are going to leave, I think your generalizations of the entire membership body of the list are grossly unfair and personally insulting to me.

As my father would have said, "When you leave, don't let the door hit you on the way out".

BearSummer

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 15:59

CDS summed that up fairly well.

Depends on if you see sarcasm as an attack, which is why i think this is a cultural issue. I don't see that as a personal attack, I see it more as someone pointing out with humour how daft it is to think you can get away with it. He may be a world class pro in another field (doubtfull as keyser is obviously willing to screw the client over) but in his own words he has blagged this deal and "I've never done anything of the sort before!". Without telling the customer that his experience is limited he is risking getting a bad reputation and having a very peeved customer who then has to pay for it to be reshot. I think that some mild sarcasm is the least he should expect.

And before people think im slagging the mods and pekka off, I think they do a great job with very little thanks. I just feel in this case that the blames getting shovelled the wrong way. I've had my say, you know what I think, thanks for taking the time to read it. And for the record I feel that the "dont get hit in the arse on the way out" comment is very offensive, but i also know its a common phrase in the states. If someone said it to me I would be offended to say the least, I guess thats one of the problems with a global forum, cultural differences can cause friction. What isnt offensive to one person would get a very different reaction in a different country, a hard thing to modetate i know.

Best regards

BearSummer

Scottes

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 16:04

Depends on if you see sarcasm as an attack...
Yup, this is true. I did feel Neil's sarcastic comment to be an attack, but the cultural things can't be ignored, nor can the lack of expression, tone, or body language on a forum. These points need to be remembered by both the typers and readers. In this case it seems that neither remembered them.

ilya

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 16:07

Six months ago Keyser did not know the difference between Raw and Jpeg. He could be a quick study, but somehow I doubt it.

Neil's retort was pretty damn funny. To be called a **** in response is out of line. It used to be that some of our most senior members turned moderators used to have much sharper wit about them then this little jab - and you know what - that was some great fun. (you know who you are!).

Buceta was just being cute I think.

Bottom line though is that it doesn't sound like this was the reason Neil is leaving. If that were the sole reason, yea that would be childish.

HJMinard

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 19:03

I'm somewhat insulted by some of the snobbery expressed in this thread. What difference does it make if he was a "Pro" or not? Nowhere in his original post does Keyser say that he misrepresented his experience to the client ... if they're willing to hire him without checking references, that's their potential problem. He got the job and he asked for help ... perhaps he could have expressed himself better and more completely, but he didn't deserve to be insulted. I have no problem with sarcasm, but there's a difference between funny and insulting - and in my opinion Neil's response was snobbish and insulting. Everybody (with such aspirations) has to start somewhere - it's the client's responsibility to verify ability.

As for the whiny "see ya" threads (such as this) ... childish grandstanding.

BearSummer

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 19:39

ilya

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 20:07

it's the client's responsibility to verify ability.

caveat emptor, eh?

HJMinard

5th of February 2005 (Sat), 20:08

blagged :- To be tricked, to talk your way into/out of something, To steal/rob off with something or somewhere or A piece of property etc that has been stolen.

The fact that he "blagged" his way in means that he's sold them a pig in a poke. He knows he doesn't have the experience to do the job and he has said so, you can bet the customer doesn't know this, thats why he "blagged" the job.

Okay, fair enough. That word is new to me ... and I'll sheepishly :o retract my statement about misrepresenting abilities ... perhaps Keyser did (we still don't know, for sure). I stand by my reaction to Neil's insulting sarcasm. If he didn't have anything productive to add to the thread (even constructive criticism), he should have kept his thoughts to himself.

jyrgen

6th of February 2005 (Sun), 03:26

Although I find the reason of this thread childish, I feel necessary to point out that the immortal words of Douglas Adams were "So long and thanks for all the fish". I mean, if one wants to exit with style, one should do it with style.

BearSummer

6th of February 2005 (Sun), 03:36

Okay, fair enough. That word is new to me ... and I'll sheepishly :o retract my statement about misrepresenting abilities ... perhaps Keyser did (we still don't know, for sure). I stand by my reaction to Neil's insulting sarcasm. If he didn't have anything productive to add to the thread (even constructive criticism), he should have kept his thoughts to himself.

So much for having something more constructive to do, clouds and rain, grrr. Would just like to say how much I respect your "retraction". Respect.

I guess we are all going to have to view Neil's sarcastic comment from our own personal cultural perspective, from my point of view as someone who is also in the UK (same as neil) I feel that he has added to the thread, he's pointed out very accurately that to do a job you need to have the required skills, not just be willing to give it a go. You can't pilot a helicopter just beacuse you have flown a flight sim or be a brain surgeon because you carve the turkey at xmas. Pointing out to Keyser's the reality of the situation caused an abusive reply partially motivated by the fact that Keyser knows he's in over his head and would rather people didn't point this out. Anyway, must get away from this thread, time to hoover the camera bag, clean the lenses, charge some batteries and work out the best way of using a panoramic head.

Best regards

BearSummer