What is WRONG with some people?

[Zansho]

OK, maybe I'm being a bit harsh in my topic, but I've been stewing over this for about a week now, and I really need to vent.

Background: I signed a wedding contract with a heterosexual couple (this will be important) back in February, everything was great - they genuinely liked my work thus far, and were very nice people, paid the retainer, everything.

I flew out to S.F. to shoot a lesbian couple getting hitched (unrelated wedding to the first one) this past August, and posted a few images of the wedding on my blog, which have since been removed, as I'll explain why later. The lesbian couple loved the photos, have ordered some re-prints and 2 albums. I LOVE clients like these.

The Father of the bride in the first wedding takes a look at my blog and objects to the content of the lesbian wedding, and shoots off an email to me saying he no longer wants me to photograph the wedding because I willingly support a questionable lifestyle, and wants to back out of the contract due to ethical reasons, and wants a FULL refund.

Problem is, my contract states that if it's already past 30 days to the wedding date (it already is), and unless it is an act of God, or death in the family or something similarly tragic, I have the discretion of refunding all monies save for my retainer fee.

I'm wondering if I should play Mr. Nice Guy and refund his money. He's not going to refer me to anyone else anyway, and I can't book another wedding in 3 weeks, given this much notice. It won't BREAK me, but I'm wondering, should I even advertise that I shoot gay/lesbian weddings? Make an entirely different website/blog dedicated to just that part of my clientele?


It just feels stupid. No offense, but it's people like this that make me ashamed to be a human being at times.

[Jim G]

If a significant part of your clientele are refusing to hire you based on another portion of your business (say it was G&N, for example, and not this particular issue) it would make good business sense to have a separate website (or at least a warning prior to the photos) to showcase that stuff and retain the clients you would otherwise have lost.

As far as ethical sense goes, though, that's a whole different kettle of fish. Are you willing to lose some clients to stand up for what you believe shouldn't make a difference? Are they clients you wanted anyway if that's their attitude?

[blackshadow]

Who did you make the contract with; the bride and groom or the father of the bride?

Have you been in touch with the bride and groom and informed them about what the father of the bride said?

I hardly think that posting your work online is "supporting a questionable lifestyle". As far as I can see the problem lies with the father of the bride not you.

[Zansho]

If a significant part of your clientele are refusing to hire you based on another portion of your business (say it was G&N, for example, and not this particular issue) it would make good business sense to have a separate website (or at least a warning prior to the photos) to showcase that stuff and retain the clients you would otherwise have lost.

As far as ethical sense goes, though, that's a whole different kettle of fish. Are you willing to lose some clients to stand up for what you believe shouldn't make a difference? Are they clients you wanted anyway if that's their attitude?

Problem is, Jim, it doesn't MATTER what I believe. These are people who want me to provide a service, and I'll provide it if they pay my fee, and it isn't illegal and not hurting anyone.

All the gay/lesbian legal rights aside, I look at them as a client. I'm covering and documenting an event for them.

[Zansho]

Who did you make the contract with; the bride and groom or the father of the bride?

Have you been in touch with the bride and groom and informed them about what the father of the bride said?


F.O.B. was the contracted party, and they retained me for the couple. I kind of feel bad for the bride though, she must be out of her mind at her dad for possibly getting rid of her photographer, and leaving her with 3 weeks to find another one. And yes, the B&G are aware of the situation, and while they want me to shoot the wedding, they also don't want to piss of Daddy.

[neil_r]

Personally, I would not give a refund and I would re-state that you are more than happy to complete the contract. The reason for their cancellation does not meet any of your "stated" force majeure conditions. The contract is about the law not about peoples sensibilities.

(and on a separate note. The guy is a pr1ck)

[Stocky]

I don't think his prejudice is a valid reason to break the contract.

If he is serious then he will let you keep the money and find someone else. I see a lot of this kind of prejudice, where I am, and I really don't understand it at all.

[primoz]

I wouldn't refund. Sorry it's your problem what you shoot, not his. Besides... does shooting something mean you agree or support that? And even if you do, who cares. It's a job, nothing more nothing less. If he has problems with one or the other life style that's his choice, but unfortunately it's not his choice what you shoot to survive. So if you ask me, no refund.

[azpix]

refund .....no.
pictures.....put them on your site if they are good.
advertise you shoot gay and lesbian......I say no, you shoot people and events. Let you pictures speak.

hopefully, this incident will be the exception, not the norm.

[splithesky]

My opinion? The Father needs to get a life. I'd lean more towards sticking to your contract and not reimbursing or being allowed to shoot the event as agreed. If it doesn't say "if you disagree with the lifestyles of some of my other clients, i'll give you a full refund.." then he has nothing to stand on. You could pretty much bet that he wouldn't give you a referral regardless of the outcome. I cant stand things like this. Keep the pics of the lesbian wedding up if they benefit your portfolio.

Look at it this way. If the father went into a McDonalds... ordered a cheeseburger and fries... paid... sat down to eat, and then noticed a gay couple eating on the other side of the restaurant ...do you think they would refund him for serving someone unlike him? I dont think so. In the most kind way possible, F that guy.

[narlus]

I wouldn't refund. Sorry it's your problem what you shoot, not his. Besides... does shooting something mean you agree or support that? And even if you do, who cares. It's a job, nothing more nothing less.

good point...do photojournalists covering the war mean they are pro-war? do press shooters covering McCain or Obama mean that we know who they are voting for?

i wouldn't refund the $.

[valentinephoto]

I wouldn't refund anything at all. The contract is a contract and I dare him to take it to court - what a fool he'd look like.

People like that make me ashamed to be a human being too.

[Zansho]

Yeah, the contract is valid and enforceable, and I'm also wondering.. since they've already paid me, should I show up and shoot anyway if they don't have a photographer? I'm paid monies already. Then again, all the bad "juju" with Daddy might not vibe well for the photos, and they will reflect as such.

I *COULD* refer a colleague of mine who I know is an excellent photographer, but I doubt he'd bite the hook on that offer too.

[DunnoWhen]

I would respond to the FOB's email by stating that you are a professional photographer and in business to make a living for yourself and, as a professional, it is not your place to either condone or object to the lifestyles of your clients.

Conclude the email by asking the FOB would reconsider his position.

I would then wait for his reponse.

Depending upon said response, I would either go ahead and shoot the wedding or politely refuse to send any monies referring to the terms of the contract.

At least you would have given him a chance to reconsider his position and he would then have only himself to blame for loosing his retainer.

[primoz]

good point...do photojournalists covering the war mean they are pro-war? do press shooters covering McCain or Obama mean that we know who they are voting for?
I was thinking about writing exactly this, but I said I don't need to go into politics for samples :)

[Matthew Patrick]

Make sure you can document his reason for attempting to terminate the contract. If he does take you to court he might lie about his motives. Send a letter return receipt request stating that his mindless prejudice is not a legitimate reason for terminating the contract and that you will not shoot the wedding and will not refund the deposit. You might also send a letter to the bride so she knows she needs to find another photographer quickly. Prepare for the worst if he is stupid enough to sue he will probably lie about his reasoning for attempting to terminate the contract. Be Professional, keep the deposit and don't shoot the wedding.

[ipschoser1]

good point...do photojournalists covering the war mean they are pro-war? do press shooters covering McCain or Obama mean that we know who they are voting for?

i wouldn't refund the $.


Your examples are an apples to oranges comparison in some ways.

In regard to marriage, regardless of what the US media would have us believe, most common people believe that it is a sacred bond between a man and woman. Therefore, the "gay" photos on the OP's site are bad for business because the vast majority of his perspective clients believe that this type activity is a perversion of the sanctity of marriage (and obviously, they're getting married). It just so happens that this client found the objectionable images after he paid. How many others went to his site, saw the images, and moved on to the next wedding photog to shoot their ceremony?

I'm not sure how you should proceed in regard to monies already paid. That's a tough call.

[OdiN1701]

I agree, send a quick email and give him a chance to reconsider.

[Lunajen]

Do not refund and talk with the B&G. Regardless whetther you support the idea of gay marriage or not has nothing to do being hired to shoot a job. You were hired did a professional job and it was tasteful. Father of the bride has problems, those are his problems. But if they insist on getting another photographer;I say keep the money.

[symbolphoto]

Your examples are an apples to oranges comparison in some ways.

In regard to marriage, regardless of what the US media would have us believe, most common people believe that it is a sacred bond between a man and woman. Therefore, the "gay" photos on the OP's site are bad for business because the vast majority of his perspective clients believe that this type activity is a perversion of the sanctity of marriage (and obviously, they're getting married). It just so happens that this client found the objectionable images after he paid. How many others went to his site, saw the images, and moved on to the next wedding photog to shoot their ceremony?


I disagree. They are valid. Take religion aside and societies' popular belief (no thanks to religion) and they aren't much different.

[ipschoser1]

I disagree. They are valid. Take religion aside and societies' popular belief (no thanks to religion) and they aren't much different.


That's taking a lot aside... And it doesn't change the reality of this situation. ;)

The bottom line is that posting the images in question on the website isn't good business sense for the average wedding photog. I think we're seeing proof of that in the current situation. My point is, why take a chance on offending the majority of you potential customers over something like this?

[Canadian Techdiver]

I agree with giving him a second chance offer explaining to him that you are hired as a contractor to complete a job. Not everyone agrees with the jobs they have to do. But you are a professional and a paying client that is willing to provide you with professional buisness is what you need to survive and become successful from.

Explain that you can't always choose who you want to shoot. Or we would all want to be shooting top models and living a rockstar lifestyle. But the reality is that is not what pays the bills. Ask him if he has ever had to do anything at work he does not like to do. But is forced to do in order to keep his job and keep earning a paycheck. If he says no he is a liar and I would FIRE him as a client and keep the retainer. Then offer the B&G to shoot for your normal price minus the discount of the retainer or a bit more should they still want a professional photographer.

I was in a similar situation as a client... not because of beliefs but we had a friend of my father in laws shoot our wedding she ran a studio and a shop.... I didn't want her. But they were paying. I offered to pay more... I gave into the bride.. my lovely wife who didn't want to upset her DAD..... TO THIS DAY when I look at my hohum wedding pictures I am PISSED off... They suck. that is all there is too it. her composition was horrible. lighting ok and very standard traditional poses... my e session was forced to be in her studio with a normal backdrop or it was extra to go somewhere... which I was not allowed to choose or subsidize.... I regret it.... She will too if she scrambles to find a Hohum photog last minute.....I have only been into photography for 6 months now and I bet I could have done a better job at my own wedding.

I hope she chooses right it is her day not her dad's

[bildeb0rg]

Why not just turn up for the gig you've been paid for?
Keep in touch with the B+G, and unless they can find another shooter in the time left, I don't see why they should suffer for one persons ignorance.

[doctorgonzo]

Therefore, the "gay" photos on the OP's site are bad for business because the vast majority of his perspective clients believe that this type activity is a perversion of the sanctity of marriage (and obviously, they're getting married).

First of all, the "vast majority" of people in this country are not against gay marriage/civil unions. A bare majority is for them, in fact.

Second, the OP is in Austin, TX. Sure, maybe if you were doing business in Podunk, Alabama, it wouldn't be a good idea to post those pictures, but Austin is a pretty tolerant, large city. Maybe I'm biased because I also live in a tolerant urban area, but I would think that given such a case, the business ramifications of posting pictures of GLBT ceremonies would be at worst a wash.

[hawkeye60]

No refund...lame excuse, tell him to read the contract. He could just of easily claimed he found out you were of the opposite political affiliation and tryed to opt out on that basis. They hired you for your photographic skills not your personal beliefs.

[12mnkys]

I would think that there is no reason to have to give a disclaimer stating that you shoot gay/lesbian weddings...It should not matter. They would be tasteful photos of a WEDDING. Regardless of who is in it. This guy is a little short minded and for that reason, I would not refund the money.

I may be able to see his point if you were shooting Porn or something, but even then, i don't know. A quality photographer is a quality photographer, and if you meet their expectations for their wedding, then anything else you do really is irrelevent.

Mike

[totalphoto]

No refund for several great reasons listed above.
And if he lets you shoot the wedding, he is even a bigger a-hole, but I think giving him one more chance to gather his thoughts is very professional.
Good luck

[Stocky]

Once you confirm that you are not shooting the wedding you should send him an email about how you didn't mind shooting this wedding even though they were forced into the marriage out of wedlock ;)
You might have thought he was happy to find a morally flexible photographer.

[OdiN1701]

Another idea:

Find that article where the photographer is getting sued by the gay couple for refusing to shoot it. Maybe that will give him some perspective. Refuse to shoot it and get sued, or shoot it and have someone cancel?

[moeronn]

Definitely do not refund the retainer, but I agree on giving the FOB one more chance to reconsider if he would like you to shoot the wedding - using some of the ideas posted above.

His moral convictions may faulter a bit if it takes money directly out of his pocket.

Still, I think you would be better off if he refuses your services.

[Bearmann]

I have no experience in this area, however, your contract is with the bride and groom, right? It is not with the father of the bride, correct? If I did not receive something in writing from the bride and groom saying that my services had been canceled, I would show up ready to work. If they ask you to leave at that point, then it seems to me that you covered all your bases. Oh, and I would not refund anything.

[ignutzz]

Given that his reason for canceling does not meet the criteria listed in your contract, and it's past a refund date anyway, you are not required to return his refund and I wouldn't.

I would, as other stated, tell him that you are still willing to fulfill the contract as originally signed.

I would also put the other couple's photos back on your website. Obviously you know better what your comfort level is with all of the issues here (and what effect it might have on business), but personally, I'm would not be willing to kowtow to bigotry and I wouldn't have a problem not having clients like him in the future.

[doctorgonzo]

I have no experience in this area, however, your contract is with the bride and groom, right? It is not with the father of the bride, correct? If I did not receive something in writing from the bride and groom saying that my services had been canceled, I would show up ready to work.

OP says that the contract is with the father, not B&G.

[MrsKitty]

Given that his reason for canceling does not meet the criteria listed in your contract, and it's past a refund date anyway, you are not required to return his refund and I wouldn't.

I would, as other stated, tell him that you are still willing to fulfill the contract as originally signed.

I would also put the other couple's photos back on your website. Obviously you know better what your comfort level is with all of the issues here (and what effect it might have on business), but personally, I'm would not be willing to kowtow to bigotry and I wouldn't have a problem not having clients like him in the future.

This is exactly what I think, too.

Was the lesbian couple the only thing like that on your site? No sisters or female friends at events or portraits?

If he wants to cancel because of photos of a lesbian couple, I wouldn't give the bigot a damn penny back.

[mattograph]

Another perspective.

I have sued folks personally and professionally. I have also been sued personally.

No one EVER wins. Even when you win. (I still have $500 a guy owes me with a judgement to back it up. That was 2003. I am not holding my breath.)

This situation sucks for the OP. But bear in mind that lawsuits do not occur in vacuums. Questions to ask yourself are how accessible is your legal counsel? How accessible is his? Is he a man of means? Does he have a reputation? What is your sense of what he could do?

Only you have a sense of how far this could go if you refuse to return the money, but it would not have to go far legally to make you start to wonder if it would not have been easier to "settle". A couple hours of legal fees, some time in court or at depositions, tons of frustration. You have to weigh that in the end.

If it were me, I would offer to let him out of the job for a fee, say 50%. I would also do that in writing. His attorney is likely to look favorably on such an act. You get the day off, take the money, and put it behind you.

Your morals -- his morals. Don't matter.

[DunnoWhen]

OP says that the contract is with the father, not B&G.

Not quite.

Background: I signed a wedding contract with a heterosexual couple (this will be important) back in February, everything was great - they genuinely liked my work thus far, and were very nice people, paid the retainer, everything.


I infer from this the B&G signed the contract but it is the father who has paid the bill.

If you can't get the bigot back on-side following an email sent in the terms recommended above, then advise him that, unless you receive from the B&G written confirmation that they wish to cancel the contract, you will turn up to shoot the wedding as contracted.

If you then have to turn up to shoot the wedding, have a typed up letter of cancellation ready for them to sign.:)

[doctorgonzo]

Post #5: F.O.B. was the contracted party, and they retained me for the couple.

[DunnoWhen]

Post #5:

My apologies. Missed that one.

[stathunter]

I would respond to the FOB's email by stating that you are a professional photographer and in business to make a living for yourself and, as a professional, it is not your place to either condone or object to the lifestyles of your clients.

Conclude the email by asking the FOB would reconsider his position.

I would then wait for his reponse.

Depending upon said response, I would either go ahead and shoot the wedding or politely refuse to send any monies referring to the terms of the contract.

At least you would have given him a chance to reconsider his position and he would then have only himself to blame for loosing his retainer.

I think the above is worth repeating. It is good info.

I personally am a wedding shooter and because of standards that I personally have and beliefs that I have I would not shoot a homosexual couple. That is my personal decision. It may or may not be a good business decision but I can understand why the father would be upset. I would simply explain to him that sometimes you photograph couples that are on their second, third or fourth marriage --- according to the church this is wrong but you are a business professional and photograph for paying customers -- and refuse to take sides on issues but simply focus on photographing moment for customers.

[ipschoser1]

I think the above is worth repeating. It is good info.

I personally am a wedding shooter and because of standards that I personally have and beliefs that I have I would not shoot a homosexual couple. That is my personal decision. It may or may not be a good business decision but I can understand why the father would be upset. I would simply explain to him that sometimes you photograph couples that are on their second, third or fourth marriage --- according to the church this is wrong but you are a business professional and photograph for paying customers -- and refuse to take sides on issues but simply focus on photographing moment for customers.

The common sense, truthful response. I like it!

[mattograph]

I would respond to the FOB's email by stating that you are a professional photographer and in business to make a living for yourself and, as a professional, it is not your place to either condone or object to the lifestyles of your clients.

Conclude the email by asking the FOB would reconsider his position.

I would then wait for his reponse.

Depending upon said response, I would either go ahead and shoot the wedding or politely refuse to send any monies referring to the terms of the contract.

At least you would have given him a chance to reconsider his position and he would then have only himself to blame for loosing his retainer.

I think the above is worth repeating. It is good info.

I personally am a wedding shooter and because of standards that I personally have and beliefs that I have I would not shoot a homosexual couple. That is my personal decision. It may or may not be a good business decision but I can understand why the father would be upset. I would simply explain to him that sometimes you photograph couples that are on their second, third or fourth marriage --- according to the church this is wrong but you are a business professional and photograph for paying customers -- and refuse to take sides on issues but simply focus on photographing moment for customers.


There is good advice here, right up to the point where its suggested that you put it in WRITING!!!

Don't put this kind of stuff in writing. This is the kind of thing that you discuss face to face.

It can come back to haunt you.

[DunnoWhen]

There is good advice here, right up to the point where its suggested that you put it in WRITING!!!

Don't put this kind of stuff in writing. This is the kind of thing that you discuss face to face.

Sorry, this MUST be in writing. This is a client trying to withdraw from a contract.

It can come back to haunt you.

However, any writing must be wholly professional. Provided it is, there will be no unreasonable backlash. In fact, I would suggest that, conducted professionally, the OP would gain respect for not being drawn into a discussion of the rights or wrongs of the FOB beliefs.

[mattograph]

I would respond to the FOB's email by stating that you are a professional photographer and in business to make a living for yourself and, as a professional, it is not your place to either condone or object to the lifestyles of your clients.

Conclude the email by asking the FOB would reconsider his position.



This is the part that I would keep out of writing. You opined as much in your last post. I think we are on the same page. Sorry for the confusion.

The only thing that needs to go in writing, IMO, is a restatement of the terms of the contract.

[DunnoWhen]

This is the part that I would keep out of writing. You opined as much in your last post. I think we are on the same page. Sorry for the confusion.

The only thing that needs to go in writing, IMO, is a restatement of the terms of the contract.

No, I think everything I put in my original post should all be expressed in writing for the following reason; It proves that the OP gave the FOB every opportunity to step back from his stated position and to let the contract be completed as originally intended.

In that way, whichever direction this matter may finally take, the OP can demonstate that he acted professionally at all times.

It was, after all, the FOB's responsibility to discount any photographers with conflicting beliefs before entering into the contract.

[mattograph]

No, I think everything I put in my original post should all be expressed in writing for the following reason; It proves that the OP gave the FOB every opportunity to step back from his stated position and to let the contract be completed as originally intended.

In that way, whichever direction this matter may finally take, the OP can demonstate that he acted professionally at all times.

It was, after all, the FOB's responsibility to discount any photographers with conflicting beliefs before entering into the contract.

A sample exchange (most likely paranoid, but ......)

FOB: You shot a lesbian wedding. I don't want you shooting my daughters.

OP: I am a professional photographer and in business to make a living for myself and, as a professional, it is not my place to either condone or object to the lifestyles of your client.

FOB: Really? So you've never refused a client? So, if paid, you would shoot legal nudes of young children?

OP: No, thats not what I mean.....

FOB: Further, none of this work was represented in your portfolio. If you had disclosed your open work policy to me up front, I would never have contracted you. I intend to challenge your failure to disclose as fraud.


another sample exchange:

FOB: You shot a lesbian wedding. I don't want you shooting my daughters.

OP: I am sorry to hear that our business relationship may need to be terminated before the completion of our contract. As referenced in paragraph 4, no refund is due. Thank you.

FOB: I'm suing!!! (but without any additional ammunition from you.)

[doctorgonzo]

FOB: Further, none of this work was represented in your portfolio. If you had disclosed your open work policy to me up front, I would never have contracted you. I intend to challenge your failure to disclose as fraud.

I can see somebody making this laughable argument, but I can't see it working. Failure to disclose all works as fraud? What, if somebody once did some macros of flowers and didn't post it in their wedding portfolio, a disgruntled client could say that's evidence of fraud because it wasn't disclosed? Fraud is misrepresenting your work, such as stealing another person's photos and putting them in your portfolio. Fraud is not failing to disclose every client you have ever worked for.

The contract has specific reasons for returning a deposit, and delayed bigotry is not one of them. I agree with everybody else that says you should give him the chance to be reasonable and reconsider, and pose it thus: regardless of whether or not those "offensive" photographs exist, does the quality of the work product change one iota?

I suspect, however, that this person will not be reasonable, and will forfeit the deposit.

[aaronrider]

Don't refund them. That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

[noxcuses1]

All the gay/lesbian legal rights aside, I look at them as a client. I'm covering and documenting an event for them.

EXACTLY!

good point...do photojournalists covering the war mean they are pro-war? do press shooters covering McCain or Obama mean that we know who they are voting for?

i wouldn't refund the $.


EXACTLY!

[noxcuses1]

What if you were a different religion than him? Does that make a photographer better or worse?

Sounds like this FOB is a real S.O.B.!!!

[DDCSD]

For all of those bashing the FOB, he has every right to his opinion and beliefs as you do.

For the OP. It is his problem if he thinks that you shooting a gay wedding somehow disqualifies you for shooting his daughter's wedding. If it was that big of a deal to him that the photographer shares his belief system, he should have asked before signing the contract.

If the FOB absolutely will not see the light and allow you to fulfill your end of the contract, and you feel like being generous, you could tell him that if you are able to book someone for that date at the same price package as in the contract, you will refund 50% of the monies paid. If you are unable to re-book then he loses it all, as stated in the signed contract. If you don't feel like being generous, then you keep the deposit as stated in your contract and have a nice day off.

You should not suffer financially because he forgot to ask about something he apparently thinks is important and wants to go back on his word.

Just want to make sure, but you do have a signed contract, correct?

[Zansho]

Yes. Signed, dated, and paid for.

And thanks to all those who provided their input, it was most illuminating.

There's one small sticking point. The actual monies was paid by the FoB. The B&G signed the contract, along with the FoB as a witness. So, in theory, the FoB does have the same weight on the contract as the B&G, which might make my job easier or harder, depending on how you look at it. I apologize for my previous posts, if they didn't make sense in that regard.

Easier - as in convincing the Father to overlook whatever belief system he holds to allow me to shoot his wedding - afaik, the bride still wants me as her photographer, as does the groom. The only party that does not want this deal to go through is the FOB.

Harder - Let's say I do go and shoot - I could end up taking a reputation beating for being the "hardass" of a photographer who wouldn't refund the father's money when requested, and might be viewed in an unfavorable light by the guests, especially if they only hear the FOB's side.

I'm tempted to just refund the money , and keep the retainer fee in addition to the bridal portrait fee I did as well, (total of $800.00) while refunding the rest and washing my hands of this fiasco. Of course, I'll make them sign a cancellation document holding me blameless for whatever result of their wedding photos they do end up getting if they're not done by me.

I'm currently in the process of having my lawyer look this whole thing over for me (everything was communicated via email, which is actually helpful) and go from there.

[holrd]

For all of those bashing the FOB, he has every right to his opinion and beliefs as you do.

For the OP. It is his problem if he thinks that you shooting a gay wedding somehow disqualifies you for shooting his daughter's wedding. If it was that big of a deal to him that the photographer shares his belief system, he should have asked before signing the contract.

If the FOB absolutely will not see the light and allow you to fulfill your end of the contract, and you feel like being generous, you could tell him that if you are able to book someone for that date at the same price package as in the contract, you will refund 50% of the monies paid. If you are unable to re-book then he loses it all, as stated in the signed contract. If you don't feel like being generous, then you keep the deposit as stated in your contract and have a nice day off.

You should not suffer financially because he forgot to ask about something he apparently thinks is important and wants to go back on his word.

Just want to make sure, but you do have a signed contract, correct?

Completely agree. Get everything in writing, through email and registered mail. When you contact him say nothing about what was posted on your site, say nothing except the contract he signed with you. Quote your own contract and use that to enforce the no monies back policy. Tell him you are sorry "he is withdrawing from the contract" but unfortunately due to the legal contract you two have you are unable to refund his money. If you havent done so already print everything. Emails, letters, and rough idea of phone conversations and keep a folder.

I hope, for your sake, that your contract includes a note about how canceling a wedding requires written notification by registered mail. This way if he doesnt send anything to you, you show up and shoot, if they ask you to leave have a letter ready for him to sign.

No sane lawyer is going to touch this type of case. Especially if you have him dead to rights on shooting a homosexual wedding being the basis for him wanting out of the contract. If you have that in writing and decides to sue, then you contact the ACLU and there is a good chance they will step in and help you defend this. This is the type of case that would make national headlines because its such a unique case with such and absurd back story.

Dont be bullied. You have done nothing wrong, and if the original photos are great then show them off. This will scare away the potential FOB your are dealing with now and leave you with some pretty progressive clientele.

Personally i would much rather have a photog at my wedding who was comfortable enough to shoot a lesbian wedding then one who was not. Its part of matching personallities with the photog that i think is extremely important and helps create a much better end product.

[mattograph]

I can see somebody making this laughable argument, but I can't see it working. Failure to disclose all works as fraud? What, if somebody once did some macros of flowers and didn't post it in their wedding portfolio, a disgruntled client could say that's evidence of fraud because it wasn't disclosed? Fraud is misrepresenting your work, such as stealing another person's photos and putting them in your portfolio. Fraud is not failing to disclose every client you have ever worked for.

The contract has specific reasons for returning a deposit, and delayed bigotry is not one of them. I agree with everybody else that says you should give him the chance to be reasonable and reconsider, and pose it thus: regardless of whether or not those "offensive" photographs exist, does the quality of the work product change one iota?

I suspect, however, that this person will not be reasonable, and will forfeit the deposit.

Certainly its laughable. The whole premise of the situation is laughable. But its happening.

My point is not whether the argument works or not. My point is that the more you say, the more ammo you give an already somewhat "affected" customer to make the situation more difficult for you.

[strmrdr]

I'm currently in the process of having my lawyer look this whole thing over for me (everything was communicated via email, which is actually helpful) and go from there.

That is the proper course of action.
Once you have a legal opinion from someone licensed in your state and working for you then you can consider the rest but not before.

[LVPhotos]

I'm not a lawyer but since I have one for my business and never use all my alloted hours, I decided to call him to see what he's say.

This is the LEGAL standpoint, possibly not the "right" thing to do since it will cause stress on the B&G. IMO that's not your problem, it's FOB's problem.

Zansho, the contract is signed by the B&G, your agreement is with them. Period.

Probably over-simplified, but Dad paying for it is a "gift" to the bride and groom, so in effect it's the same as him giving them the money and them paying you.

He has no legal rights in this agreement.

It's been posted before... here's your steps:

1. Write (registered) letter to the B&G. Outline the FOB's demands but explain that the agreement is with them and that he has no authority. You are prepared and willing to complete the job.

2. If no reply or nothing in writing, show up at the event ready to work. DO NOT bring a cancellation form. If FOB wants you gone then he's going to have to get the B&G to write "As of (date), (time), we are no longer in need of your services". If they won't sign that then do your job the best you can until FOB "kicks you out"...

3. If they reply (to your first letter), then be reasonable. Explain that you make your living doing this and there's no way you could book another event in time. Your loss is the total contract amount. But also tell them that you understand the situation and do not want to cause problems. You'll be happy to refund (x%) and release them from the contract. Suggest 25% and it's up to you how much. Have them sign another agreement stating that this is a settlement and no other monies will be owed, etc.


Also keep in mind, anyone can sue anyone for anything. Even if you give a partial refund, they can still sue you. They wouldn't win, but then again they wouldn't win even as it stands now. but, either way you'll spend hours in court or thousands on a lawyer.

The idea here is to not allow it to get to lawsuit, but even if they write you a 10-day notice or something, they still likely wont' sue. If they do sue then you can always settle.

[LVPhotos]

I'd also like to see what your lawyer has to say... and it would be helpful to all of us, even if the situation isn't a typical one (specifically) there are similarities to many possible scenerios.

[noxcuses1]

Yes. Signed, dated, and paid for.

afaik, the bride still wants me as her photographer, as does the groom. The only party that does not want this deal to go through is the FOB.



If the Bride and Groom still want you to shoot their wedding, then have them sign a NEW contract with you and have them pay the same amount for a deposit.
THEN you can give the FOB a refund.

[mattograph]

I'd also like to see what your lawyer has to say... and it would be helpful to all of us, even if the situation isn't a typical one (specifically) there are similarities to many possible scenerios.

LV, what an outstanding thing to do. Kudos to you, friend.

[DunnoWhen]

I'm not a lawyer but since I have one for my business and never use all my alloted hours, I decided to call him to see what he's say.

This is the LEGAL standpoint, possibly not the "right" thing to do since it will cause stress on the B&G. IMO that's not your problem, it's FOB's problem.

Zansho, the contract is signed by the B&G, your agreement is with them. Period.

Probably over-simplified, but Dad paying for it is a "gift" to the bride and groom, so in effect it's the same as him giving them the money and them paying you.

He has no legal rights in this agreement.

It's been posted before... here's your steps:

1. Write (registered) letter to the B&G. Outline the FOB's demands but explain that the agreement is with them and that he has no authority. You are prepared and willing to complete the job.

2. If no reply or nothing in writing, show up at the event ready to work. DO NOT bring a cancellation form. If FOB wants you gone then he's going to have to get the B&G to write "As of (date), (time), we are no longer in need of your services". If they won't sign that then do your job the best you can until FOB "kicks you out"...

3. If they reply (to your first letter), then be reasonable. Explain that you make your living doing this and there's no way you could book another event in time. Your loss is the total contract amount. But also tell them that you understand the situation and do not want to cause problems. You'll be happy to refund (x%) and release them from the contract. Suggest 25% and it's up to you how much. Have them sign another agreement stating that this is a settlement and no other monies will be owed, etc.


Also keep in mind, anyone can sue anyone for anything. Even if you give a partial refund, they can still sue you. They wouldn't win, but then again they wouldn't win even as it stands now. but, either way you'll spend hours in court or thousands on a lawyer.

The idea here is to not allow it to get to lawsuit, but even if they write you a 10-day notice or something, they still likely wont' sue. If they do sue then you can always settle.

Hmmm. Lawyers. Contracts. Strange things contracts. I seem to recall a case where it was argued in court that the contract be voided because the plaintiff thought he was contracting for something completely different. For a contract to be valid all parties must substantially agree to what it is they are contracting. (Make sense?). He Won. The contract was voided.

Lesson learned....Don't let the lawyers get involved. You never know what will happen.:)

[20DNewbie]

FWIW I'd keep the money, why should you lose out because of another persons intolerance? After all, you may have been able to book something else if the FOB did a tiny bit of research first.

Like others said I'd try to sort it out with the couple, no reason they should lose out either.



I wanted to say something along these lines, but since you already started it, small 'podunk' towns and religious folks are the majority that will take issue with this...

As always, some ultra left northeastern cesspool is always right on every issue and the entire rest of the nation is always wrong. I sick of hearing crap like this. I think there are a lot of other folks from middle America that would agree with me. ;)

Back to the topic at hand... In my previous posts, I've simply pointed out to the OP that such controversial images on a wedding photogs web site can cause problems with the rank and file that can negatively effect business. I think this thread proves that without question.

Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out where mumbles said the cesspool was all knowing and the rest of the country was wrong. Small podunk towns and religious folks come from all over not just the close minded inbred confederate flag waving hillbilly south(just continuing with your generalization of my libby cesspool;)[no, I'm not a lib]). Do I honestly believe that about the south, absolutely not I love the south, as a matter of fact I plan on moving back at some point. Your all so much more polite down there, and the pace of things is so much more relaxed(a definite+). That and WaWas' has got to be the best gas station/convenience store on the planet, and Sonics pretty good also. And your DQs' are proper sit down style joints and not just ice cream to-go windows like up here, lol, yes I'm a fatty.

I've been to both ends of the spectrum, towns that still had Klan rallies and others where guys were prancing down the street hand in hand wearing capes and g-strings. I'll never understand why people have issues/feel threatened with what others are doing providing it's legal. Just live and let live man, live and let live.

[DigitalSpecialist]

Zansho, like you I provide a service. Daddy should take a real good look at himself before he criticizes you. Your clients dictate your services and how they want them expressed. I tell all my clients upfront that I came from the Art, and Adult industry from over 20yrs ago. It paid my bills! If my clients don't appreciate my experience then I don't feel obligated to shoot for them.

But your problem is much different. The client didn't actually hire you, the guardian is your paying client. And if you are shooting childrens portraits, parents don't appreciate your ADULT portraits on the walls as they bring their children into the studio. You're in a rock and hard place predicament. Speak to all parties concerned, and show them your honest concerns and that you are providing a service. You don't judge your clientele nor do you condemn them for their lifestyles. You ONLY provide a service!!!

[LVPhotos]

LV, what an outstanding thing to do. Kudos to you, friend.

Not a problem. 10 minutes to get the 'legal' standpoint of a very interesting situation. Hopefully it will help AND hopefully it will help others in "parallel" situations.


Now if I may add my personal belief :)
1) I do not agree that gay marriage should be legalized, but I don't see anything wrong with being gay or being "committed".
2) Gay people's money spends the same as anyone elses.
3) Even though #1, I do believe that anyone can agree to love anyone they want (my issue is with things like taxes, heathcare, etc. etc.).

My company is very tolerant and open-minded, and as a matter of fact we're one of only 2 photography companies that have an ad in the entire city's Gay Yellow Pages. And, we've done 3 gay events in the last year. We even will have a (male) gay wedding posted on our blog within a week. I'm not worried about any back-lash, but then again we're in Vegas.

Agree with the lifestyle or not, they are dual-income, no kids. They are social and have a lot of parties... and they love pictures. Hint, hint... is this a nice little niche? :)

[LVPhotos]

Oh yeah, I wonder if daddy's little girl has already spread her legs for her fiancee? If he knew, would he still be paying for the wedding?

Both are "immoral" by traditional societal standards (albeit both are more acceptable socially than homosexuality)... but isn't there a saying about glass houses and throwing stones? Or wait... He Who is Without Sin Should Cast the First Stone?

[canonman4life]

keep the money!!!!!!!

[monochrome]

Leave all opinions out of it. Simply draft and send a letter to be signed and returned that explicitly states that the FOB has declined the contracted services, and that pursuant to the contract, no monies will be refunded.

Mixing a social tolerance debate with a business contract weakens your position on both.

Now, here is my personally satisfying, incorrect response.
"But if I refuse gay/lesbian work, I need to keep your deposit in order to make ends meet!"

[midnight_rider]

People like that make me sick. Live and let live is my motto. How were you supporting a lifestyle. The only thing you were supporting was your bills. If it really bothers him that much let him hire someone else and lose the money he has paid you. His ignorant excuse could never hold water, it is a contract. Personally I think you may be happy that this happened. He sounds very hard to please and would more than likely not be pleased with anything anyway.

[zacker]

Leave all opinions out of it. Simply draft and send a letter to be signed and returned that explicitly states that the FOB has declined the contracted services, and that pursuant to the contract, no monies will be refunded.

Mixing a social tolerance debate with a business contract weakens your position on both.!"

Great advice!!!



Now, here is my personally satisfying, incorrect response.
"But if I refuse gay/lesbian work, I need to keep your deposit in order to make ends meet!"

lol... nice..

This guy must be Trash... whats wrong? is he that repressed that looking at gay wedding pics has got him all excited and he's confused about his feelings?

[S-S]

if he cancels with you in writing, then you shouldn't show up expecting to shoot... that's just beligerant. but you are under no obligation to refund the deposit as it is past the expiry date for mind-changing.

and if i were you, i wouldn't enter into any discussion of his reason either, simply state and restate that you do understand he has changed his mind but unfortunately he has left it too late to cancel and get refunded, and you are still willing to complete the contract if he cannot afford to hire a new photographer outright.

[Mr. E]

No refund.
I don't think you should just show up either if you get nothing in writing for a cencellation as this could cause the B&G's day to be a bit rougher than they deserve.

[sebmour]

I would not refund the FOB. The reason being that the reason stipulated for the cancellation is not stated in your contract. I would remind him that you are still interested and ready to complet the contract.

I do not mind advertising that I shoot gay wedding's. I would be more then pleased to shoot one for on simple reason. They are open to new ideas and creativity!
They also usually have alot of money to pay for everything... :P

PS: The father of the bride is serious retard. I am heterosexual but I have absolutely nothing against homosexuality...

[mattograph]

How come everytime I read FOB, I see SOB? ;)

[midnight_rider]

How come everytime I read FOB, I see SOB? ;)

LOL I was thinking that.

[madhatter04]

I am all for gay rights, gay marriages, etc, as I'm an art major at a state university and go to school and spend time in the darkroom with people who are Muslim, Jewish, gay, straight, Iraqi, bisexual, and the list goes on. Posts like this make me extremely glad that we are able to accept each other and learn more about each other and have a better understanding about unity than most.

However, this is business. Wedding photographers live on a contract-to-contract basis. If someone told you they wanted to hire you to shoot a tattoo / body paint / extreme piercing themed wedding, of course you would! It's a paid gig.
I do not think the father of the bride should get his money back. The couple signed the contract and they are bound to your terms, even if the FOB is the one paying.

Would the father or the bride have tried to withdraw from a contract if they had hired a gay photographer???

[notapro]

if he cancels with you in writing, then you shouldn't show up expecting to shoot... that's just beligerant. but you are under no obligation to refund the deposit as it is past the expiry date for mind-changing.

and if i were you, i wouldn't enter into any discussion of his reason either, simply state and restate that you do understand he has changed his mind but unfortunately he has left it too late to cancel and get refunded, and you are still willing to complete the contract if he cannot afford to hire a new photographer outright.

this seems to be the most sensical, non-confrontational response to me.

[LeeSC]

Refuse to refund the money. This is his problem, not yours.

If he makes a stink, tell him you would be more than happy to contact your local TV station/ newspaper to let them know how you are being discriminated against due to your subject matter.

[mattograph]

Refuse to refund the money. This is his problem, not yours.

If he makes a stink, tell him you would be more than happy to contact your local TV station/ newspaper to let them know how you are being discriminated against due to your subject matter.


Hell yeah! Free advertising!!!


:shock:

[madhatter04]

^ And you may even get more gay/lesbian contracts out of it! :)

[sfaust]

Personally, I would not give a refund and I would re-state that you are more than happy to complete the contract. The reason for their cancellation does not meet any of your "stated" force majeure conditions. The contract is about the law not about peoples sensibilities.

(and on a separate note. The guy is a pr1ck)

Ditto ^ ^ ^

Whether you refund the deposit or not, you aren't going to get a good shake with this individual. So I would stand firm and use the contract as your argument point glossing over the moral issue. If he brings up the gay topic just state your shooting for them doesn't suggest any support on your behalf, and regardless isn't a valid reason to terminate the contract.

[photoguy6405]

I would not refund. I would point out that since he is obviously a man of high moral standards and ethics that it would be unethical for him to want to break a contract, so since the contract says...

[LeeSC]

Hell yeah! Free advertising!!!


:shock:


Many people don't mind being bigots/ gay bashers as long as they are behind closed doors. Bring them out into the limelight and their stories change.

[thebishopp]

No refund. I certainly hope you don't cave and give in to this guy. The bridge is already burned no matter what you do regarding his prejudices... in fact, caving in would, in a way, validate this guys attitude. No sense rewarding such an unamerican attitude (I am a big pro-constitution - T. Jefferson fan).

[Vascilli]

He is past the 30 days he could request a refund and his reason for wanting one is obscene. Don't give in.

[Lunajen]

I would not refund. I would point out that since he is obviously a man of high moral standards and ethics that it would be unethical for him to want to break a contract, so since the contract says...

Now that is good...

[Moppie]

Here is an important note for most who have posted in the last page or so:

The B&G signed the contract,

[thebishopp]

Here is an important note for most who have posted in the last page or so:

Good point. The FOB is just the contact.

[mattograph]

Many people don't mind being bigots/ gay bashers as long as they are behind closed doors. Bring them out into the limelight and their stories change.

I don't think that would be the best way to promote his business. Future customers might be somewhat gunshy about hiring a photographer who airs his difficulties to the press.

A pretty clear cut case of winning the battle and losing the war, perhaps.

[Dennis_Hammer]

A funny respsonse would be (and I am not advocating this)

Dear Sir,

I make no judgement of people or what they do in their private lives and bedrooms, and I would never think of asking your daughter and soon to be son in law if they did anything bizarre in the bedroom or if in fact they have done anything in the bedroom as that would be pre-marital and clearly labeled a sin the bible also.

Thank You

and "IF" I book another wedding for that date I would happily refund all but $500 of the fee to you. Maybe you know a gay couple marrying on that same day that could take their place in my schedule.

[crenda]

I don't think you should refund the money. I would point out the contract stipulations in writing, also involve the B&G in this conversation as well, unless they are already aware.

You run a business, it's not up to your client to decide who else you service.
If he was concerned with who else you shoot, then that should have been on his list of interview questions when they hired you.

Your beliefs are of no consequence here and neither should his. The issue is that they signed a contract for you to provide a service. If he wishes to break the contract due to some belief he has, then by all means he can walk away without his money.

If it gets out of hand, then I suggest you settle on a 50% number and be done with it. As this way you make some cash and you don't have to deal with an ongoing saga.

[DDCSD]

Yes. Signed, dated, and paid for.

And thanks to all those who provided their input, it was most illuminating.

There's one small sticking point. The actual monies was paid by the FoB. The B&G signed the contract, along with the FoB as a witness. So, in theory, the FoB does have the same weight on the contract as the B&G, which might make my job easier or harder, depending on how you look at it. I apologize for my previous posts, if they didn't make sense in that regard.


That makes this a fairly sticky situation, since the FOB really only signed that he saw the B&G sign it, he didn't actually sign the contract. This obviously depends on wording and such and needs to be looked at by a lawyer. Depending on how the contract reads, this may be an expensive lesson to always get the the person that is writing the check to sign an actual contract.

Please let us know what happens and what your lawyer says.

[Maxxum5]

Many people don't mind being bigots/ gay bashers as long as they are behind closed doors. Bring them out into the limelight and their stories change.

Funny how I quoted you last night and mysteriously, that response has DISAPPEARED. Amazing. Sometimes, I believe that this forum picks and chooses what THEY feel is right for viewing which is BIASED. So, with that said, leav emy post in teh LIMELIGHT and let me say my peace..... Obviously, i am not one to hide behind these so called, closed doors.

I for one, will tell you that the dilemma this gentleman is in, is a tough one because it may make him look prejuduce, but what if...(think about it now....) what if it was against HIS beliefs as a photographer to begin with? That gives the requestor a reason to sue him/her? That's crap. This is uncharted territory and if the gentleman decided to do the wedding and the FATHER wants no part of it, I agree to explain this to the Bride and Groom, ask them to redo a contract with their signature and payment, then pay the Father back, with a simple apology that "Sorry the contract didn't work out." Just because two parties have two separate beliefs does not undermine the other. And there is no rel reason for either teh Dad or the Photographer to blow it out of proportion. You both have your own beliefs.

I for one, am OPPOSED to the Gay/Lesbian marraige for the fact that it poses greater consequence when CHILDREN may involved. As adults, I could care less about their preference as long as it doesn't interfere with me, my job, my profession, my kids, etc. Now, do you think a GAY COUPLE adopting a child is NORMAL too? My belief, is that a "NORMAL" and nurturing environment includes a Father and Mother. NOT two mothers or two fathers. I think that alone, is raising a child to be confused as it is. If you disagree, then that is YOUR opinion. How do you think that child grows up? "Normal" What is NORMAL at that stage? Two women in bed? Two men in bed? What i sthe KID supposed to think is normal when they are not given a clean slate on what "RIGHT" is?

As for the Photographer, do what you feel is RIGHT. Its a difficult decision to make in unfamiliar territory, but in some ways, I think the fathers decision should be respected. I am sure there are ways through this, professionally, and without disrespecting one another. And, if you continue with the wedding, you may get a bad rap by the Dad, but a positive rap from the couple which could lead to other gay/lesbian weddings. But, are you prepared for the interrogation lamp from your potential customers and feel a need to justify every client you photograph?

So, is my post going to get DELETED again???

[cdifoto]

Can you pretend you never got the email, or did you already respond to it?

[Maxxum5]

Refuse to refund the money. This is his problem, not yours.

If he makes a stink, tell him you would be more than happy to contact your local TV station/ newspaper to let them know how you are being discriminated against due to your subject matter.

Funny - But somehow I think that if the Photographer politely declined, you would be suggesting that the lesbian couple call the TV Station / Newspaper to let them know THEY were being discriminated against by th ephotographer too.

This is YOUR opinion. And obviously, it seems BIASED rather than open-minded.

The photographer is in an "Ethical Dilemma" and it is already hard enough to choose his course of action while trying to enforce his contract while uneasily respecting the father's concern. There are many good suggestions on the forum that he can choose from. Or none.

if I were to make a recommendation, it woul dbe to try and make contact with the father and hear his side, state YOUR side as a unbiased person fulfilling a contract request and that contract neither supports or opposes the marriage. If he still refuses, poltely tell him that the Bride and Groom still wish to retain you as their photographer. Then, speak with the Bride and Groom and ask them if they wish to retain yor services, you will need a deposit in the amount of $XXX.XX, to cover what was already paid, then pay the father back and it couldn't hurt to apologize that the contract couldn't be fulfilled due to personal beliefs. This way, he CAN'T bad-mouth you for disrespect, only what he thinks about your beliefs. he may even think of you as very respectful businessman and not all about money.

As for the quote from LeeSC, This is a situation that don't need to be blown out of proportion! Calling the TV station is ridiculous idea and usually comes from people who love to be the "center of attention". We call people who offer advice like that, "Barracks Lawyers".

[cdifoto]

Harder - Let's say I do go and shoot - I could end up taking a reputation beating for being the "hardass" of a photographer who wouldn't refund the father's money when requested, and might be viewed in an unfavorable light by the guests, especially if they only hear the FOB's side.
Solution:

Be Awesome.

[sfaust]

I wonder if you are the type that goes through the McDonald's drive through HOPING to have you hot coffee spill in your lap just so you can sue them.

Unfortunately, that would only work if the person received third degree burns, required several skin grafts, only asked McDonalds for reimbursement for out of pocket medical reimbursements and was flat out refused, and the McDonalds district had previously received hundreds of complaints about the coffee being far to hot for normal consumption. Maybe then it would work.

I've spilled Dunkin Donuts coffee on my leg/lap right after buying it in the past. Damn it hurt, but just redness and ego bruising (I was with someone at the time :( ). But yikes, third degree burns and multiple skin grafts needed. Thats freaking hot!

The jury determined the award based on one days worth of profits that McDonalds receives on coffee sales alone. I thought that was an interesting way to figure out how to punish a corporation that makes millions in profits daily, where say $100K is like our pocket change.

I've heard the award was later reduced to something more reasonable, which brings it back down to the equivalent of about 3 cents out of Mickey D's pocket. Man thats gotta hurt ;) They will never make that mistake again!

[SlowBlink]

No refund. What you shot yesterday has absolutely no bearing on what you shoot tomorrow. Add to that the US and Canada have very clear anti discrimination laws. If the FOB would like you to break the law to suit his personal beliefs then he should put that in writing before you consider a refund.

[Maxxum5]

No refund. What you shot yesterday has absolutely no bearing on what you shoot tomorrow. Add to that the US and Canada have very clear anti discrimination laws. If the FOB would like you to break the law to suit his personal beliefs then he should put that in writing before you consider a refund.


I don't think either party had this as a forefront "what if". I think it only surfaced when the Father of the Bride saw the website of photos of the lesbian marriage. Only then did it pose an issue. Not saying he is using that as an excuse to get out of a contract where no other excuse would have been warranted, but I think it is something all parties were not really worried or thinking about. Like I said earlier, this is all uncharted territory for the Father, the Photographer (that he is being called on it) and has no bearing to the couple. It is something that just "surfaced" without malicious intent. Now, it must be addressed. I can see all parties side without being biased. Th ephotographer was hired to do a job, and he willingly accepted. Th eFather, who PAID, paid in good faith, but later discovered that there are mitigating circumstances that violate the Fathers religious/personal beliefs. The Bride/Groom could care less. So, what do they do now? I think it can be resolved professionally, especially since the Bride and Groom and neutral.

[SlowBlink]

Ignorance isn't mitigating. If he didn't ask for the deposit back I'd have an easier time accepting the third party guilt by association he's projecting onto the Photographer.

Saying someone supports or endorses homosexuality because they don't discriminate against it is absurd.

[mattograph]

Saying someone supports or endorses homosexuality because they don't discriminate against it is absurd.

Bravo!

[Maxxum5]

Ignorance isn't mitigating. If he didn't ask for the deposit back I'd have an easier time accepting the third party guilt by association he's projecting onto the Photographer.

Saying someone supports or endorses homosexuality because they don't discriminate against it is absurd.

Thats NOT what I said, but I see how things are MISENTERPRETATED to suit a specific standpoint. What I am clearly trying to say, is...regardless of WHO is getting married, the FATHER has a specific "viewpoint" as do you. And whether or not supporting some homosexuals getting married or NOT was NOT an issue "UNTIL" he realized it. AFTER THE FACT OF SIGNING THE CONTRACT. So, the Father is, objective, subjective, ignorant, (or whatever) because this bridge has never been crossed and he is not comfortable with it? So the Father is ignorant for what reason? Because he has his own beliefs which are not in line with YOURS? I agree with you that, someone who does NOT discriminate against (or for) does not show any support or endorsement. But I think you are disregarding the entire situation and saying "Screw him, he paid, he don't like it, too bad....." You are missing the point that, this is all new ground for BOTH the Photographer and a Father who paid good money but realized (obviously, too late) that there is one factor he is not willing to overlook.

If the Father visited the website and was praising his work and then when he went BACK saw the photos had been added, who are we to criticize the Father for his beliefs? Now, if the photos were up there prior to signing the contract, and he in fact visited the website and made no comment and THEN went to back out on his contract, I can agree wholeheartedly to keep the money. But I think the Photographer is saying that, the contract was signed based on the Photographers reputation and online portfolio. Then, the Photographer added additional photos (of a lesbian wedding) which were not to the Father's liking. (Whether he is prejudice, or it is firmly against his religious beliefs) what's the big deal? Is it about PRIDE? RELIGION? A CONTRACT? MONEY? What is the bottom line here? Because he signed a contract? The greater good is this: I highly DOUBT the gentleman would have signed had he known the circumstaces PRIOR. That is a fact. And based on THAT fact, that is the sole reason why I say there is good reason to just pay the gentleman back. That's all. Not because he deserves it, or is a raving lunatic. But because of personal beliefs. Now, if the Photographer could care less what this raving madman had to say, he would NOT come to the forum with his dilemma. I still think it is a win/win situation if he speaks with the Father, hear his grievance and if he can not work something out, then speak with the Bride and Groom. Ask them to pay him, return the Father's money, and do the best damn job he can and try and ignore the fact that the Father may try and confront him or humiliate him at the wedding. Is this really worth the damn contract money involved? To ruin a wedding of the Bride and Groom who take a unbiased standpoint or worse.....be slandered around town that he supporst unorthodox weddings?

No one knows what will happen. We can sit here all night up to the wedding with "What if's". The bottom line is, the Photographer is looking for a cordial solution that could benefit all parties, while preserving his solid reputation and not developing a new one.

[walternewton]

If his beliefs are so "personal" he should keep them to himself and not concern himself with other people's business.

What if the photos he was opposed to were of an interracial wedding rather than a gay wedding - would that be a valid complaint on his part? How about a Jewish, Hindu, or Muslim wedding?

[cdifoto]

Thats NOT what I said, but I see how things are MISENTERPRETATED to suit a specific standpoint. What I am clearly trying to say, is...regardless of WHO is getting married, the FATHER has a specific "viewpoint" as do you. And whether or not supporting some homosexuals getting married or NOT was NOT an issue "UNTIL" he realized it. AFTER THE FACT OF SIGNING THE CONTRACT. So, the Father is, objective, subjective, ignorant, (or whatever) because this bridge has never been crossed and he is not comfortable with it? So the Father is ignorant for what reason? Because he has his own beliefs which are not in line with YOURS? I agree with you that, someone who does NOT discriminate against (or for) does not show any support or endorsement. But I think you are disregarding the entire situation and saying "Screw him, he paid, he don't like it, too bad....." You are missing the point that, this is all new ground for BOTH the Photographer and a Father who paid good money but realized (obviously, too late) that there is one factor he is not willing to overlook.

If the Father visited the website and was praising his work and then when he went BACK saw the photos had been added, who are we to criticize the Father for his beliefs? Now, if the photos were up there prior to signing the contract, and he in fact visited the website and made no comment and THEN went to back out on his contract, I can agree wholeheartedly to keep the money. But I think the Photographer is saying that, the contract was signed based on the Photographers reputation and online portfolio. Then, the Photographer added additional photos (of a lesbian wedding) which were not to the Father's liking. (Whether he is prejudice, or it is firmly against his religious beliefs) what's the big deal? Is it about PRIDE? RELIGION? A CONTRACT? MONEY? What is the bottom line here? Because he signed a contract? The greater good is this: I highly DOUBT the gentleman would have signed had he known the circumstaces PRIOR. That is a fact. And based on THAT fact, that is the sole reason why I say there is good reason to just pay the gentleman back. That's all. Not because he deserves it, or is a raving lunatic. But because of personal beliefs. Now, if the Photographer could care less what this raving madman had to say, he would NOT come to the forum with his dilemma. I still think it is a win/win situation if he speaks with the Father, hear his grievance and if he can not work something out, then speak with the Bride and Groom. Ask them to pay him, return the Father's money, and do the best damn job he can and try and ignore the fact that the Father may try and confront him or humiliate him at the wedding. Is this really worth the damn contract money involved? To ruin a wedding of the Bride and Groom who take a unbiased standpoint or worse.....be slandered around town that he supporst unorthodox weddings?

No one knows what will happen. We can sit here all night up to the wedding with "What if's". The bottom line is, the Photographer is looking for a cordial solution that could benefit all parties, while preserving his solid reputation and not developing a new one.

ClickMe (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot).

[DDCSD]

ClickMe (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot).

Seems to apply equally to most people who have posted in this thread, on every side of the argument.

[NickSimcheck]

I didn't bother to read the entire thread to see if somebody has already thought of this but the FOB could be looking for just an excuse to cancel the deal. I seriously doubt that his "concerns" are legit cause what you shoot has no serious reflection on himself/family.

This is coming from a person who is strongly heterosexual.

It's a lame excuse, so I concur - no refund. Remind him the DJ has to get drug tested and to question the minister to make sure he is free of sins.

[mattograph]

This is coming from a person who is strongly heterosexual.



I always heard chimps were flexible.....;)

[Maxxum5]

Seems to apply equally to most people who have posted in this thread, on every side of the argument.

Agreed.

"CLICK ME" Whoa...Most impressive skills. I guess that would sum some of us up in one simple word. Just because I (and others) don't agree with HOMOSEXUALS doesn't consider me (or them) a BONAFIDE bigot. I serve PROUDLY with Asian, African American, Caucasian, Indian, as well as MUSLIM, PERUVIAN, GUAMANIAN, PUERTO RICAN, PANAMANIAN, PHILLIPINO, TURKISH, ITALIANS, BRITISH, CANADIENS, DUTCH, GERMAN, IRAQI, MACEDONIAN SERBIAN, CROATIAN, BOSNIAN etc etc etc. All of which I volunteered to work along side of. You have your beliefs, as well as I have mine. Just because I don't or WON'T allow you or anyone convince me that this "man on man" "woman on woman" is an acceptable way of life, I am a pure bigot? Get real. You act as if there is absolutely NOTHING you don't disagree with. :rolleyes:

[SKnight]

I'd possibly split it with him. Highlight the pertinant areas of the contract making it clear as crystal that you have no obligation to refund them a dime. Refund 50% of remainder after subtracting the retainer, get a clear letter of release explaining beginning to end why the contract is being terminated by them and that you are releasing them. Signed by B&G along with FOB as reason for termination. Have it properly notarized with copies for all.

Stop screwing around with it from here and start lining something else up.

[Belmondo]

Okay. This discussion has become circular. I see nothing new (worthwhile) in the last couple days. Let's go argue about lenses or something now.