Marketing Percentage question

[photography by trish]

Does anyone know how much a typical marketing company would get if they got you a gig?
How much is their share/percentage?

I found someone starting a marketing business that's expecting 20-25% of my profit for the gigs he gets me.

Thanks in advance.

[sfaust]

It all depends on what they do for you. What type of marketing? Will they be advertising? If so print, electronic, etc? Will the be the negotiating party with the client, or are they just passing on leads?

A full service rep gets in the neighborhood of 25%, plus a percentage of the future repeat business. But they do a lot of leg work for it, shopping your portfolio around, negotiate pricing and usage rights, and so on. They usually have great contacts in the industry and know the markets well.

So make sure you know what you are getting in return for the fees. Unless they are full service experienced photographers reps, 25% will be high.

[photography by trish]

Thanks for that! I was worried that there would be no onewho knew the answer to that. He is basically just a man selling me with my business cards. He's trying to start and I don't think he will do as much as you stated.

From what I understand, he will just be finding me the leads, and by the time they get to me, I will do the rest. He has great contacts from his personal life, but knows nothing about the photography market. (He's my uncle, so I wanted to do my homework before the decision to go with him was made.)

How much do you think that's worth?

Thanks thanks thanks!

[Gary_Evans]

25%!!?? Are you nuts?

I pay a £20 ($35ish) flat fee per lead that is converted to a booking. If he doesnt get the booking then he doesnt get paid.

I get 100% of what the clients pay

[sfaust]

25%!!?? Are you nuts?

I pay a £20 ($35ish) flat fee per lead that is converted to a booking. If he doesnt get the booking then he doesnt get paid.

I get 100% of what the clients pay

It all depends on what level you are marketing at. For a full service rep getting 25%, they are handling negotiations with the clients, preparing the bids/quotes, negotiating the usage rights, and are generally working with high end clients, know the right contacts, and help get you in the door. For the most part, they will also get you more money than if you had bid on the jobs themselves, especially for photographers that are new at competing at that level.

25% of a $28,000 job they get you is sometimes better than the $21,000 you might have gotten on your own, and having to do all the upfront marketing and quoting work yourself.

Once you work at that level for a number of years, the rep might be less valuable to you. But in the beginning, they will get you higher fees and be worth it in the end.

[John Mireles]

As Stephen has pointed out, it could be a good deal or it may not. It all depends. A rep really only makes sense in the commercial market where the budgets are big enough to accommodate a rep's percentage.

There's no way the math will work if you're shooting weddings or portraits. Besides, unless this person knows what they're doing, you're just going to waste your time and money.

John

[John Mireles]

Just read your second post. I wouldn't do business with family. Not in the way that you're talking about. It won't end well. Most rep relationships don't end well - throw in family and you're just screwed.

John

[S.Horton]

Your uncle wants to make money off of your work?

[photography by trish]

Wow. You guys have made me true believers in the POTN community. I haven't been a part of it for very long and am seeing so much so quickly. So much that I have trouble absorbing it all.

Are there any ways to go around these cons?
This is where I am:
Need the money----->He's offering gigs right now (This wed, a concert in Hollywood)------>Realize the facts.

So like I said, before I do what's right I wanna see if there's any way to get around the con, business with family. I bet I could get him to bring it down to at least 10%.

[tim]

Business with family is rarely a good idea. 25% sounds like extortion, unless he can get you into things you have no hope with by yourself. You'd have to negotiate what happens if they come back to you directly, does he get a cut of that as well, and all future dealing with that customer?

[ssim]

When I first went full time I negotiated with a small marketing company (no relative). I told them what kind of work I wanted and we made a list of potentials and I paid them a flat fee for the door knocking and then a 10% commission on the initial booking. Any subsequent sales to the same company were not included though I did manage to secure a very nice corporate account and I did and still do slide them some of the proceeds from this one as it is pretty lucrative. I went with the flat fee as I am a realist and didn't expect them to work for nothing and we all have to eat.

I provided all the collateral information, brochure, business card, etc and all they had to do was the door knocking and introduction. I did a check on a few of the list to make sure that they did the visit and to the best of my knowledge they did them all. It was some of the best money that I spent in start up.

[John Mireles]

Need the money----->He's offering gigs right now (This wed, a concert in Hollywood)------>Realize the facts.Few things: taking a job because you need the money is one of the worst reasons to take a job. Sometimes it's better to go hungry - it focuses you on what you really need to do to be successful. This deal with your uncle has bad-ending written all over it.

Concert gigs usually pay crap. There's very little money there to begin with, much less cut in someone for 25%.

This uncle of your sounds like a real sweetheart. Turning you onto low paying gigs and then asking for a big cut. Yeah...

John

[sfaust]

I think working with family depends on the people. You know your uncle and family, and only you can be the judge of that. There are multiple family run businesses in my family, and they all make it work and have been for decades. I've known others that I could never see a family relationship working. So it all depends, and you are the best judge of what will fly.

If you think 25% is too much, come up with a number you feel is right for you for what you are getting in return. Lets say its 10%, but he still wants 25%. This is workable. Increase your rates 15% for anything that will be going through your Uncle. That will pay for his end, and the other 10% will be coming out of your end. He gets his 25%, and you only pay the 10% you are comfortable with. If you get no work at all, its status quo. If you get work through your uncle, you've also established your rates as 25% higher than they are today, and that will carry over the years whether your uncle is still providing leads or you or not.

[S.Horton]

It is not a problem, really -- Let him have x% of the initial booking. Zero of any residuals, follow-on sales, subsequent bookings........

This amounts to a fee-per-contact arrangement.

What surprises me is that your uncle would take any of your money.

[sfaust]

What surprises me is that your uncle would take any of your money.

Its funny how different the advice is when all the family members start lining up for free portraits and prints!

Why shouldn't he charge? Its an ongoing business arrangement, not an occasional favor for a family member. If this was an occasional thing, yea, I would think the Uncle would do it just to help out a family member. But this sounds more like an ongoing business arrangement.

Suppose this was about remodeling a basement. It seems reasonable that an uncle might help a nephew remodel his basement by providing free labor. But is it reasonable to expect that uncle to help the nephew with free labor to remodel his clients basements, where the nephew is being paid to do so and making a profit from it?

To me, this is an ongoing business arrangement where the nephew will be making a profit on his services. The uncle shouldn't be expected to work for free providing marketing and lead generation so the nephew can reap the rewards, any more than the uncle should be expected to provide free labor for the nephews basement remodeling business.

Concert gigs usually pay crap. There's very little money there to begin with, much less cut in someone for 25%.

This uncle of your sounds like a real sweetheart. Turning you onto low paying gigs and then asking for a big cut. Yeah...

John

It all depends on the quality of the leads. If the uncle is providing him with quality leads, and at rates higher than the OP is currently getting, yea, he is a sweetheart!

Concerts can pay very well if you find the right clients ($1,800 for 6 hours work isn't bad in my book, and I've billed that on numerous occasions). Advertising, merchandising, editorial use, can all increase the fees as well.

Depending on what the Uncle can offer in the way of leads generated, it may very well be worth it. He provided a concert lead very quickly. He maybe able to provide a job a week, and not just concerts. We don't really know. But as long as the leads generate revenue that is more than the OP typically charges, it can be a very good deal indeed. Not only will the OP get his regular rate, but he is also building clientele that he normally wouldn't have had access to. Those jobs can lead to new contacts, more clients, and future work, and help build the business far faster than he could if he was working alone.

If all he is offering is low paying work at a high fee, then I agree, he is part of the problem and not the solution. But lets not jump to conclusions either and chastise the uncle without giving him a fair shake.

[S.Horton]

^^ We have this issue in my family all the time.

On one side of the family, it is considered unimaginable to charge relatives for anything at all, save expensive materials (perhaps).

On the other side, manual labor is expected to be paid for, whereas professional services rendered in any form have no value, because they didn't involve actual 'work.'

So it really is a family philosophy, isn't it, what defines 'work' and 'value'

To me, an uncle with a Black Book of contacts making calls is different from the uncle negotiating deals and signing contracts for a fee.

When I read the posts, it sounds like phone calls only, but I could be wrong, of course.

[sfaust]

To me, an uncle with a Black Book of contacts making calls is different from the uncle negotiating deals and signing contracts for a fee.

When I read the posts, it sounds like phone calls only, but I could be wrong, of course.

Even if its just a black book of contacts, and the uncle makes the phone calls and a recommendation, if the OP lands the job it still maybe worth it.

It really depends on the quality of those leads, and if they turn into long term clients. 25% ($200) of a $800 job is excessive, but that same $200 for being put in touch with a client that results in $4,500 of work over the course of a year isn't.

I still there is a workable plan that will benefit both. For clients that have long term possibilities, I'd increase my rates to cover the majority of the 'marketing fee', so the end cost to me is say 5% or 10%. The 10% would easily be made up from those clients that do come back for additional services over time.

If the clients are generally one off clients, where they have no need for repeat service, then I'd increase my rates to cover the whole 25%. If he lands jobs for the OP, he/she still gets their normal rate. if not, nothing lost on the OPs end.

I do feel 25% is excessive though, unless he is acting as a full service rep (marketing, meeting face-face with potential clients, showing printed portfolio, negotiating contracts/fees, etc).

[RyanMerrill]

How do you guys find marketing agencies like these? All I ever see are the ones that charge you a fortune up front and don't seem to guarantee much.

[sfaust]

Search for photographers representatives. There aren't that many, and most work in the commercial and advertising segments at the higher end of the market (ie, typical jobs in the $10k and up range). But there are others that I've met that work in the lower end as well. I don't know of any that work in the event, portrait, or editorial markets. The wedding market has similar representatives, but they usually also represent other talent as well, such as bands, entertainment, etc.

Calypso de Sigaldi (http://www.calypsodesigaldi.com/home.html) and Jed Root (http://www.jedroot.com/)
These two are representatives that handle photographers with different styles on an international scale. There is some very nice work from the photographers represented here, and all at playing at the top of the field evidenced by their work and clients.

Here are a few more to browse.
Gary Mandel (http://www.gmphotorep.com/)
Jeff Cerise (http://www.agentjeffcerise.com/)
Melody George (http://www.melodygeorge.com/photographers.html)
Lisa Button (http://www.buttonrepresents.com/)
Roger Heaton (http://www.rogerheaton.com/)