Looking for photographers to take student portraits in new program

[Picateers]

Picateers offers schools a unique new portrait program. Rather than having Lifetouch send in an under-trained and under-paid "photographer", we help schools find someone in their community who can be taught to take portraits with a consumer DSLR. The digital images are then uploaded to picateers.com, where parents can order prints. The best part is that the school gets to keep half of the revenue - so the portrait program becomes a great fundraiser for the school.

However - some schools would prefer it if we could send a trained photographer in to take the portraits. And we think that some photographers might like to use our program as a way to market themselves to parents - and thus to line up family portraits, holiday portraits, and other kinds of photography business.

So - we are looking for photographers who might be interested in working with us in some way. If you think working with Picateers might be interesting, please take a look at www.picateers.com. If you want to chat with us about ways that we might work together (we are still trying to figure all of this out - so we want to hear what you think would work best), send an email to "affiliate" at "picateers dot com".

Thanks!

[BlackJagger]

I'm trying to understand this program so please correct me if I'm wrong. But you basically are promoting a site which helps schools to not use a professional photographer but to instead use a teacher or student as a volunteer and you provide the ability for online proofing and sales, giving them 50% as a fundraiser and you keeping 50% as the administrator. So you are basically cutting out the photographer from the whole mix. Interesting.

[Picateers]

Yes, that is what we do today.

However, the reason for this posting is that we would like to design a program that involves local photographers.

We have schools who, for whatever reason, don't want to use a volunteer to take the pictures. For those schools, we would like to have a network of local photographers who could work with Picateers to take great portraits for the school. You might do this as a way to market your services to the parents (family portraits, etc.), or as a way to broaden your visibility in the community. In addition, Picateers would provide a share of the revenue to the photographer.

I'm trying to understand this program so please correct me if I'm wrong. But you basically are promoting a site which helps schools to not use a professional photographer but to instead use a teacher or student as a volunteer and you provide the ability for online proofing and sales, giving them 50% as a fundraiser and you keeping 50% as the administrator. So you are basically cutting out the photographer from the whole mix. Interesting.

[poloman]

The amount of the "share" is critical.
Who does the post processing?
How much money?
I am thinking that a photographer needs to distinguish themselves from the rest of the market through stellar performance. Sounds like you are going the other way.

[shooter mcgavin]

This sounds like an idea that might interest administrators and some parents, but I really don't see how it benefits photographers, since the idea behind it is to cut out professional photographers...this is kind of a step in the wrong direction, as far as I'm concerned.

[pyterps]

out of the 50% you keep how much of this goes to the photographer? OR Is it all done on speculation that the photographer may get business down the line? Can the photographer promote their business, at the shoot, in order to possibly get a chance for follow up images?

[tomcat360]

This sounds like an idea that might interest administrators and some parents, but I really don't see how it benefits photographers, since the idea behind it is to cut out professional photographers...this is kind of a step in the wrong direction, as far as I'm concerned.

Doesn't matter to the school.....schools see a cut, they don't think about the Lifetouch guys.

Another example of consumer autofocus auto everything dSLR's killing professional photography?

[Picateers]

To be honest, we are very much in the process of trying to figure this all out.

The idea is this:

It appears to us that some "aspiring" pro photographers are looking for ways to promote their new business in the community. We are looking for help with our school program. It feels like there should be a way for each of us to help the other. Picateers can provide an excellent school portrait program that aspiring photographers can use. By doing school portraits, you can get visibility in your community, with parents for example, that can later translate into family portrait business, holiday portrait business, etc. We can also provide a share of the revenue so that the photographer gets paid (and we all know that good school portraits sell well).

Now, we probably can't pay what a seasoned pro with an established business can charge. But we can pay something, and provide good visibility and marketing (perhaps including a website, and other web based promotion of your services).

For more established pro's - we can provide a very nice back end service that would allow your customers to e.g. see proofs on the web and order on the web. Because of our scale, we can do all of this (and print the images) at a pretty good price. Whether that price (and the services that we can provide) will make sense for a more established pro - we aren't sure.

On the other hand, we understand that there are plenty of photographers out there shooting sports or contracted to newspapers that are taking pictures for what comes out to a couple of hundred dollars a day. We can probably pay around that same amount - so maybe it will be interesting to more established folks too...

Either way - the important thing for us is the dialog that we are having right now. We are trying to learn - and we need you guys to teach us what will work, and what won't.

[poloman]

I think you are simply going to downgrade the whole deal while grabbing a piece of the pie for yourselves.
Venues for proofing and internet sales are inexpensive and readily available.
I have also not heard you address post processing.

[57hardtop]

From the "Terms of Use" off the picateers website

2. SITE CONTENT. Subscriber acknowledges and agrees that if Subscriber uses any of the Services to contribute Content to the Site ("Subscriber Content"), Picateers is hereby granted a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, transferable right to use, copy, distribute and display such Subscriber Content (including all related intellectual property rights) in connection with the Service including fulfilling any orders for Subscriber or those with whom Subscriber has shared such Subscriber Content. Please note that when Subscriber shares Subscriber Content, the recipients will be able to share and make photographic prints from such Subscriber Content, and Subscriber hereby consents to the same. Picateers reserves the right to remove any Content (including Subscriber Content) from the Site at any time, for any reason (including, but not limited to, upon receipt of claims or allegations from third parties or authorities relating to such Content or if Picateers is concerned that Subscriber may have breached Section 5 below), or for no reason at all. Picateers does not claim ownership rights in any Subscriber Content.

[Picateers]

Not sure what your point is here 57hardtop.

The key part of this clause is "in connection with the Service including fulfilling any orders for Subscriber or those with whom Subscriber has shared such Subscriber Content." We need the rights granted in the terms of use in order to do what our customers are asking us to do - that is to say "in connection with the Service."

If you are suggesting that we are trying to acquire rights to content in an inappropriate way, I can assure you that that is not our goal.

[poloman]

But you are diluting the rights of a pro that works with you. If I where to send work in for posting to be viewed then I have granted you rights that perhaps I wouldn't like to.

[Picateers]

Then if we are going to work with pros, we are going to have to change our terms of use, aren't we.

The whole point of this dialog is for Picateers to learn how we might be able to work with pros, and aspiring pros. If doing so means that we have to change things about the way that we do business today - then we will change. If we can figure out a program that will work both for us and the photographers that we work with - then we both win.

But you are diluting the rights of a pro that works with you. If I where to send work in for posting to be viewed then I have granted you rights that perhaps I wouldn't like to.

[57hardtop]

Not sure what your point is here 57hardtop...If you are suggesting that we are trying to acquire rights to content in an inappropriate way, I can assure you that that is not our goal.

I'm not suggesting anything...the paragraph states your intentions very "matter of fact" in a longwinded, try to confuse the layman, legalese manner. I'm just posting facts...let the "buyer beware".

So with that being said, you also state in the last sentence that "Picateers does not claim ownership rights in any Subscriber Content.", so please don't assume I'm jumping on the pile. I'm merely posting what a lot of people (sadly) won't take the time to read...a portion of the "terms of use", the good and not so good of it.

While I'll think your organization has a very worthy idea, and I do think that there is potential to help those who may genuinely need help, I also think it's unfair to ask a photographer to donate his/her time and talent to a "fundraising" project where there is some person/persons making a profit off it. I think (imho) that is the reason you're getting the resistance you're getting here. People don't mind helping out, but not when everyone isn't pulling the same load (load being the money in this case). If everything was being donated, by everyone involved, you may find people a little more willing to help. These are just my views, my opinion, and nothing more.

I sincerely wish you luck with your project!

~Roger

[Picateers]

...I also think it's unfair to ask a photographer to donate his/her time and talent to a "fundraising" project where there is some person/persons making a profit off it.

We think so too.

Picateers isn't asking pros to donate their time so that we can make a profit. We assume that a photographer is going to need to get paid for their time, skills and effort. We do believe that we can deliver more value to the photographer than just money (e.g. visibility, contacts with parents, opportunities for future business) - but if some reasonable cash compensation isn't there in the first place, none of that other stuff matters.

The key question is simple. Can we afford to pay enough to interest pros?

I suspect that the answer for an established photographer is "no" - but I'd like to be proven wrong. For folks who are looking to build their business or portfolio, or get a start in portraits, I'm pretty sure that the answer is "yes". I'd like to find a few more folks in both categories to talk to about what we are doing so that I can get the feedback that we need to craft a program that will be as attractive as possible.

[57hardtop]

It seems there are two issues here, one short term, and one long term. Regarding the short term issue, for me personally, the exposure would be good enough reward/payment, since after all it is a fundraising effort and I willingly am donating my time and talent(?) to help a good cause. The long term issue is where it gets sticky...

If you were to make it perfectly clear that the photographer keeps any and all rights to the copyright and licensing, then I believe you will probably get a lot of support. I would be happy to donate my time for a worthy cause...but if along with donating my time, I am also giving away the rights to my talent(?) and creativity, then sorry, I'm not interested. Not to sound rude, but if you want/need my labor/talent(?), that's fine and I'm all for it, but if you want my future too, no thanks. If I take a creative shot (my creativity/talent(?) at issue here) of some kid, and 5 years from now that kid becomes a movie star and people/publishers are willing to pay big bucks for a nice photo of them from the past, I want myself to be the recipient of the benefits of my talent, not you...sorry.

Is Picateers willing to grant these rights to the photog?

[poloman]

The other problem is one of scale. If everything is done under the name of Picateers, there is really no good will being extended in the name of the photographer. Not only that, with the amount of time POST PROCESSING (yes I am yelling because you haven't addressed this ye) takes, it is hard enough to turn a good profit as it is.
Sorry, this just feels like..."hey buddy, introduce me to your prospective client and I'll take half the money".
I don't see you providing much.

[57hardtop]

what happened to our dialog?

[poloman]

Well..... I'm still here.
Hmmmmmm

[Picateers]

Well, I do have some other things to attend to. :D

No, really, I wanted to have a chat with our lawyer about the copyright question before possibly sticking my foot in my mouth...

On the copyright issue (who has the right to do what down the road), I think we need to clarify our terms of use (maybe add a separate section dealing with photographers, or perhaps a separate short photographer letter agreement that details who can do what with the images in the future). Our intent is that the photographer retains ownership of the copyright to the image, but that we have a license that allows us to display the image on our web site, and sell prints. This is a bit of a complicated issue - if either of you (or anyone else) would be willing to chat with me on the phone for a minute so that I can be sure that I understand your concerns, that would be great. Alternatively, if you have time, I have some language that I've drafted that I'd love feedback on.

On the "scale" issue, I think there were really two separate questions.

1) Do I (the photographer) really build any good will here, or is everything branded Picateers? The answer to this one is easy: we would do everything that we can to promote the photographer, and to encourage parents to hire you for other kinds of work (family portraits, e.g.). I imagine that the pages on our web site that parents use to order prints would display your name, and a link to your website, for example. If you don't have a website, we could provide one. We understand that your goal is to generate other kinds of business and to establish yourself in the community - we would support that goal in any way that we can. We get that in return for paying less than "market" rate, we need to do a good job here.

2) Do I (the photographer) get paid enough to notice, especially if I have to do a bunch of post-production work? This one is harder - each photographer (and I've spoken with several over the last few days) seems to have a different threshold for "enough to notice." One guy said that he would love to work with us for $80/hour. That is clearly out of our league - we can't afford to pay that. Several other people said that they would shoot school portraits for free if we did a good enough job of promoting them so they could sell other kinds of work. Somewhere in the middle (between free and $80/hr) is a fair price that we can afford to pay - it will be attractive to some (even with prep time and post-processing effort), and not to others...

As to the specific question of post-processing - we generally don't require our photographers to do any. Our lab (one of the best in the country we believe) color corrects each image by hand as part of their printing process, and does an acceptable job. Our website allows parents to crop images, and we are working hard to add other features so that they can have better control over what gets printed.

That said, the better the images, the more parents will buy. And the more they buy, the more everyone (including the photographer) makes. So there is some incentive to spend time making the images as good as possible - and we do have one volunteer photographer who does a ton (15-120 minutes per image) of post-processing work to make them the best that they can be.

If you would be willing to spend a few minutes on the phone discussing some of this stuff, please PM me and we will set up a time...

[pyterps]

PM Sent

[MG30D]

Interesting concept. I believe you'll have a hard time contracting professionals. However, I would think many aspiring photographers, wanting a little experince, and some portraits to help build up thier portfolio, would be interested. This is where your market is.

As for me, I'm one of those aspiring photographers. ;)

I would like to know, if I were the one taking the photos, could I have "ownership" of the photos I took in-order to keep them in my portfolio. Or, would I be giving up "all" the rights of my photos.

In my circumstances, as a college student currently acquiring my BS in business and planning to go onto get a BFA in photography, it would be nice if I could, on a part-time bases, obtain some experience shooting portraits and add it to my portfolio. I wouldn't care so much about the money, but the rights and experience. Therefore, I could bring my gear and conduct the shoot with the aid of a few parents as assistants. This would keep the integrity of your business, i.e. low cost + good quality photos + friendly atmosphere, while allowing aspiring photographers to get their foot in the door of the photography business.

My question is, is your company willing to allow the photographers to have ownership of their own photos. If so, I'm interested. :)

[57hardtop]

I sent a pm 6 days ago...haven't heard anything back yet...guess they're still hashing out the details with the lawyers. :confused:
I'd be interested also...under proper conditions.

[wyofizz]

In our area the school photographer gets a check before the shoot.
Kind of creates a captive customer.
If this concept allows purchase after critique I wonder if sales/profit
will be diminished. (I'm not suggesting that this would be a bad thing).
How well are T&I guys doing out there?

Dave

[pyterps]

I sent a PM the other day also with no reply, since school is going again it would be nice to get started if things were to workout and benefit both.

[Mr.Euresti]

I have been giving this business model a lot of thought. Since about 2001 and I trulyl wish you the best. My concerns are many: from the school's perspective, from the parent's perspective, and of course from the photogrrapher's perspective.

THE SCHOOL
Their job is to educate children. To ask them to get more involved in the photoshoot process or any fundraiser is asking alot. In our neck of the woods it is common for the schools to get 40% of the sales, plus a lot of freebies. So essentially they are already getting 50% without having to lift a finger. They do not need to get volunteers, coordinate the shoot, or deal with the many issues that arise. I suspect as schools experience the process they will be turned off by the work that is required and the hassle of dealing with parent's complaints. This takes a lot of man power and most volunteers cannot handle the volume of work that this type of model requires. Volunteers will soon tire of this and not want to volunteer year after year and someone is left with retraining new volunteers.

THE PARENTS
Parents expect, rightly so, top quality pictures and service. They will be just as demanding on volunteers as they are on photography companies. I do not see how volunteers can maintain the quality and consistency that experienced photographers can provide. This is not to say that quality portraits are not attainable by volunteers. I pay people to do this and sometimes, even with tons of training, we end up with below par work from them. Parent volunteers will need some extensive training in photography, the program to process pictures, coordinating shoots, tracking images and data. This is a lot to ask.

THE PHOTOGRAPHERS
You are looking for photographers to help you in this process. From my small company's perspective there is no incentive to join your business model. What you should be looking for is a representative.

What you need is someone who can go from school to school and train these volunteers. This person should be either salaried or salaried plus some commission from each school they train. This is a great incentive for a photographer/salesperson.

I really like your "out-of-the-box" thinking on this. I hope you change the landscape of school photography. I believe that sometime down the road shools and school districts will tire of the standard photo process and opt for something simpler and that can be done within the district in order to raise more funds. Think about it: A district of 80 to 100 schools is doing about $1,000,000 in gross sales in student portraits. If they were smart they would do the entire shoot process and keep all the profits.
HEY! Maybe that's the next evolution in school portraits. Shhhhhhh. Don't let anyone know about this.

Rene Euresti
Signature Photography, Inc.
210.224.5553
www.signaturephotogrpahyinc.com