Another pricing thread, sorry guys

[rg-tom]

Hey fellas,

I've looked through the forums but not found a similar scenario:

I currently shoot basketball games for an EBL Division 1 basketball team in a trade off where they get to link to my website from theirs and I obviously benefit from the extra traffic to my site and experience....but they have approached me asking if I would be interested in starting to sell prints on the merchandise stand, where they would get a cut of the profits.

The guy who approached me asked for me to get back to him with some rough prices, they would be A5 pictures which would be signed by the players. He said the main idea was for them to be priced cheaply enough that a kid could get his parents to buy them on the spot, say £2 or something. Also he mentioned that perhaps after or before games we could run a service where I took pictures of a kid with their favourite player and they'd get a print of it for x number of pounds.

I'd still own all the copyrights etc as I'd be doing all the printing etc.

Also they have laptops which I could use for the onsite printing but I'd need to have my own printer.

I have absolutely no idea what kind of price to charge though, as I have no idea how much it'd cost in paper / ink (considering Ilford Galerie Smooth A4 glossy? works out at around 12p per A5 sized piece) and also I'd need to buy a half decent printer (I am probably going to get an Epson r200 as it seems a bargain for the £70)

Does anyone have any ideas? Obviously I'd like to make as much as possible but want it to be accessible to most kids to buy....also I suppose it'd be good experience and something to put on my CV. I had considered saying if you buy me the printer for my own personal use and pay for the ink and paper that is used for these prints that would do but that leaves me open to being abused. Does anyone have idea of price per page on an R200?

What kind of price would you guys charge?

Cheers

Tom

[IndyJeff]

Tom I can't translate into pounds vs USDollars so I will just do the USD and let you translate.

First off you need to figure out how much you can print one for. Let's just use $1.99 since that is about and average cost for an 8x10 from a lab. Ok it is going to cost you $1.99 for each print, figure 5 times that for shooting and processing it. So now your around $10 for the print. How many prints realistically do you think you can do in a season? 300? Divide 300 by the cost of the printer, which you will have to buy. Add that to the $10, let's say your looking at $350 for the printer so add $1.16, your now up to $11.16. The school wants to make something so add 30% in for them. Now your up to $14.50.
So a print of a player will run them $14.50 and your costs will be $6.49, the school receives $3.34 per print which is included in your costs of $6.49. So your looking at about $8.00 per print in profit. If you sell 300 thats about $2400 in profit.

Realistically, I think you should get around $22 at least. Give the school $6.60 and your left with $12.25 profit. Have you ever seen anything at a sporting event that was priced low? I mean really priced to sell? From tee shirts to hats all starting at $25 and up.

In both above pricing scenario's nothing has even been considered as your equipment costs either.

[Avalonthas]

Well I suggest if your going to do plain player shots with autographs, then get the prints predone at a photolab, maybe a variety of sizes, then charge a surplus on top (which will range depending on size to keep it good rate). Remember that people can get some PRO player photo's and stuff with sigs at any stadium for very cheap, so u dont wanna overcharge for semi-pro players, although they may become stars someday, but kids and there folks arent gonna pay big bucks if there just there having fun as a family and arent huge hardcore fans that are into collecting, you know what i mean.

Like In Canada, 4x6 for example run for 23 to 25 cents a piece from a lab, so you could charge something like $3 bucks for it, which is a nice small photoalbum type of pic that a kid can put on his desk or something. So you have a 2.75 profit, so you can keep 1.50 for yourself and give the team 1.25. So basically its about a 60/40 split on the profit. Main reason behind you getting more profit is ur doing the shots for free i suspect, so u need some equipment funding. I dont know how many peeps go to ur game or anything but if u offer an afordable price (at our local semi pro event, 4x6 go for 2 bucks flat, 1 buck to photographer and 75 cents to the team per photo and they make many package sales per day where a kid and his dad would buy the entire team set of players for 30 bucks or so for the entire lineup, which is a pretty good deal and the kids would love em). I have done some hockey games and stuff in the past and I always charge 2 bucks flat, and do the same distribution, but im not in it for profit, just to fund my expenses, so i dont know what ur after. But as u increase in photosize, increase the photographer/team surplus amount so they you may make 50cents each more on a larger size photo. Or you can offer nonsigned pics for a little less or something, but i prefer to give the kids all pics with signatures cuz it makes them extra happy which is what i like to see.

As for prints on the spot with player/family for example. I have done this before, but I would charge like 4 or 5 bucks for a 4x6, and increase accordingly as it goes up because although the players like to help out and stuff, they cant spend the whole day taking pics. For these kind of prints, invest in a Canon i9900. The price is steep at 650 canadian (550 USD???) but it is large format (up to 13x19 borderless), 8 ink tanks to provide the best color/quality i have ever experienced, and its relativly easy on the ink, and each ink is relativly cheap. With this printer, even with good paper (i buy semi bulk quantities though), I get similar to lab costs, maybe like a 2-8% max increase in cost compared to a lab when you compare the average costs. Its gonna cost quite alot for the printer, but it will pay itself off in the long run both for personal and business use.

And since you got the copyrights no matter what (make sure when u make the contract, you can sell the photo's elsewhere at the same time, with all profits going to urself if not sold in the team establishment/property), and when these players get famous or the local newspaper is looking for coverage, your gonna get a nice paycheck for these pics.

[rg-tom]

Cheers for the advice fellas given me a lot to think about....going off of IndyJeff's post this is what I've worked out:

I can get prints done from a lab for 35p ($0.70) @ 5x7 (the size they want)....so 5x that is £1.75 ($3.50) including the bit for me, and then the printer whilst not a top end is very high quality that anyone except extreme critiques wouldn't be able to tell the difference between lab prints and its is £70 ($140) and I'd guess at 100 a season so £0.70 on top ($1.40) brings it to £2.45 ($4.90)....so if I give the club 30% thatd bring the price to £3.20 ($6.40).....this isn't too far off the price they were aiming for but still seems a little cheap for a pro. Perhaps as a trial do you think I should try £4 ($8) for a 5x7 and give the club £1 of this....giving myself a tidy £3 per print vs my cost of 35p + printer?

Unfortunately, a lot of the croud know me and the club definitely know me as a student photographer rather than a professional, as I have only just began doing the photography (albeit with the ultimate aim of becoming professional), yet have also played for the magic's youth teams for 5+ years. I personally think that it's goin to be the toughest part pursuading them of my worth as a professional when they know me as a student, although if they like my pictures as much as they say it should hopefully be not too bad.

Do you think it'd be fair to offer the onsite photography for a bit more as to keep demand down to reasonable levels and to also help with the added strain of working there on the spot to process the images? Say £6 ($12) for pictures with their favourite players?

Thanks again,

Tom

[gmen]

Do you think it'd be fair to offer the onsite photography for a bit more as to keep demand down to reasonable levels and to also help with the added strain of working there on the spot to process the images? Say £6 ($12) for pictures with their favourite players?

Sounds like a good move. The pressure will be on to get the shot and print it in a fast timescale. The players won't always want to hang around and the punters will always be in a hurry! I'd charge at least £6 - probably more - £7.99+. As IndyJeff says, sporting merchandise is never exactly cheap nowadays! You're also providing a unique, premium service so your prices should reflect that.

Also consider the R300 - you can pick those up for about £99 nowadays - the built-in card reader would mean you can still print even if the laptop blows up!

Good luck with this venture!!!

[rg-tom]

yea i can get the r300 for around £15 more but the card reader seems like its not that much of an advangtage as I always have a card reader on me and the r200 has a usb port that can print directly from the camera or card reader :)

cheers

Tom

[Stemmy]

I do quite a few society balls, School leaving Balls etc and i dont print on site. I have my 10Ds plugged into TVs, take the picture, let them see it, if they like it take address details, take the money. I can then take advantage of cheaper printing onto photograph paper.OK you have the hassle of posting out pictures but this should be built into the cost.

I charge £8 for an 8by6 and £12 for a 10by8 this covers all the costs and gives you a decent profit yourself.

If you are going to print from the R200, which I have, it can give stunning results and joe public would never spot the difference between this and a "conventional" print. My only worry would be the archival quality of the print. If Tommy buys a copy of his favourite player, frames it and puts it in his window to show all his mates, in 2 years the print would be ruined unless you are using the dearer inks and papers (Lyson etc.) in which case your costs have to reflect this.

Speed is what you want and the players will not want to hang around. Printing on site will slow you down. Take the pictures, watch the game, do the work when it suits you.

[gmen]

the r200 has a usb port that can print directly from the camera or card reader :)

I could be wrong - in fact I probably am - but I'm not sure the R200 is a 'PictBridge' type printer so it might not work in that way. It'd be worth checking the official Epson spec to be 100% sure.

[rg-tom]

sorry gman my bad read so many reviews of the r300 and the r200 that they merged lol.

Anyway I think I'll probably go with photobox.co.uk which seem pretty good and reports say they are.

How would you present the prices to the club? As a final price or as a break down? In a contract or not so formal? This is my first real work at all with photography, so I have no idea how to go about it.

Cheers

Tom

[gmen]

Anyway I think I'll probably go with photobox.co.uk which seem pretty good and reports say they are.

How would you present the prices to the club? As a final price or as a break down? In a contract or not so formal? This is my first real work at all with photography, so I have no idea how to go about it.

I have some galleries with Photobox and their quality is very good, turnaround times are fast and they're quick to transfer your credit to your business account when you request it!

My feeling is that you'd need to arrive at a formal written agreement with them - detailing that you retain copyright of the images, the amount you will pay them per image sold, how the monies will be paid (weekly, monthly, by cheque, by BACS etc...), invoicing details, that the images are non-exclusive, blah, blah, blah...

Also, since the pics will involve kids, tread carefully. Sell direct to the parents, avoid marketing them online, etc... common sense should prevail.

[chtgrubbs]

I was told by someone in the business world that the average retail price for a manufactured product is eight times the actual cost of production. So going by that rule, if it costs you $3 you should be making $24 and adding the oraganizations cut on top of that.

[KevC]

Lotsa great information here guys. I'm thinking of doing portraits. Apparently my friend knows people that will be interested. Here are my costs...
(in Canadian Dollars)

Epson R200 ~$120
Ink... ~$10/cartridge. ~$50. Should be good for ~200pages.
20pages of Premium Glossy. ~$25

Cost per page: $1.50

8x cost of production will yield $12. That's for an 8x10.

I think this should be reasonable: $7 for 4x6. $12 for 5x7. $17 for 8x10.

I also need to invest in a paper cutter. Hm...

[kong]

shoot me if I'm wrong, but,,,
Are you looking for a printer that is archivabel (ok I can’t spell)?
I don’t think the R200 is?? The R800 is and the 4x6 Picturemate is.
I do some onsite printing and use both of these, they are not speedy but they also don’t cost $2,000.
Just my 2 cents.

[rg-tom]

hey kong

Cheers for the advice and because of what you said and because i cant afford an r800, I'm going to go with an online print service.

Thanks all

Tom

[DwightMcCann]

Gee, this thread is great! Almost worth a sticky, or at least pointed to out of a sticky ... maybe it is.