When will full frame 1 series be lower than 2K?

[DocFrankenstein]

I think my next camera gonna be a full frame DSLR. Till then, drebel would do it just fine.

You guys know the industry better. When do u think I'll be able to pick up a used 1D series for under 2K? Not the four megapixel 1D, cause that's a bit too low on megapixels IMO... but something cooler?

1Ds maybe or 1D MkII ?

[LouDawg]

Just a note, the 1D and 1D Mark II are not full frame cameras, only the 1Ds and the 1Ds Mark II are. I bought L glass with the intention of eventually upgrading to a full frame body with sports capabilites. So, in the next run of 1 series cameras, I'd expect a 10 fps camera with a full frame sensor. When will one of those be under $2K? Not for a long time.

[tim]

3:30pm on March the 4th, 2006.

Seriously though, for the quality to keep getting better in significant steps they're going to have to increase the sensor size some time. I'm sure they can do it whever they want, but that would close the gap between the 20D and 1D Mk II models, and so would probably lose money for Canon. The only reason they have to do it is to stay ahead of the competition. I wouldn't even like to guess dates.

[DocFrankenstein]

(I'm the one who voted 2 years btw :D )

Optimism :confused:

[FlyingPete]

Well the 1V (film) is around $2000(US) with the PB at the moment, so I would say we are a little way off having a digital version for the same price.

[DocFrankenstein]

No film... digital only

[CyberDyneSystems]

TONIGHT!










In your dreams,.. :lol: (mine too)

[HKFEVER]

Couple facts that will affect the retail price:

1. Major player like Nikon, Fuji...... jump in full frame market with similar performance as Canon but with low price. Unlikely for Nikon or other brand in this couple year.

2. Full frame market is not cash cow for Canon, but it is workhorse and almost a must for some photographers.

3. Guess the resell price for 1DS, still high.

4. Most of the consumers are OK with 1.6 and 1.3 frame. And most of they have either brought the 1.6 or 1.3 already.

5. Not too many consumers are willing or stupid enough to keep on up grading their DSLR from 1.6 to 1.3 then full frame. (They will consider to buy auto, jewelry.... simply because photography is a very lonely hobby and time consuming).
6. Upgrade from 1.n to full frame, you need excellent lens to work together. There goes another cars or else..
7. MF photographers will keep on using thier MF gear + new digital backs, unless coming DSLR can have same performance as Phase One backing but with very low price.
8. DSLR will soon have 22MP full frame, and digital 645 will soon be able to challenge 6X7 or 6X9.
8. The new tech. will solve the noise problem of small sensor, and cramp more pixels in the small sensor very soon. So no need full frame for average consumer.
9. All the above is only bull ****...:p

[primoz]

I would say never. Prices will drop, but they sure won't go below film cameras prices. And since 1v is around $2000 (still) I guess we won't see 1d (ds or not ds) lower than that anytime soon.

[kb244]

3:30pm on March the 4th, 2006.

Seriously though, for the quality to keep getting better in significant steps they're going to have to increase the sensor size some time. I'm sure they can do it whever they want, but that would close the gap between the 20D and 1D Mk II models, and so would probably lose money for Canon. The only reason they have to do it is to stay ahead of the competition. I wouldn't even like to guess dates.

Um Tim increasing the sensor size from full frame would be absolutly pointless unless they started making new lens. As full frame is for 35mm coverage, anything higher than that , you'd have to jump upto medium format cameras and their lenses even with a crop factor. Which is currently avalible in the form of digital backs, but talking 16,000$ or so and up.

[Persian-Rice]

Never, then what would the differnce between a consumer or a high end pro camera be? 4 fps?
Inflation will catch up before they plan on making cheap full framed cameras. But to be on the safe side I put 4 years.

[tim]

Um Tim increasing the sensor size from full frame would be absolutly pointless unless they started making new lens. As full frame is for 35mm coverage, anything higher than that , you'd have to jump upto medium format cameras and their lenses even with a crop factor. Which is currently avalible in the form of digital backs, but talking 16,000$ or so and up.

I meant increasing the size from 1.6 crop to 1.3 crop or standard 35mm on a prosumer level camera. Obviously going larger than that people need to get new lenses, which not a lot of people would do.

[ssim]

If Canon ever does this then they have just made their 1 series the prosumer level camera. At the same time they would introduce another series of cameras amied at the professional level market.

I get the impression that Canon always wants to have that clear distinction in the two product lines.

[Jon]

Doc F asked about a used full-frame 1D series, not about MSRP. That's going to happen, probably in a couple of years. New, it'll hit $3500 in 3-4 years.

[Andy_T]

Actually, this might happen earlier than you are thinking now.
According to DPReview, he Kodak SLR/C has a 'street price' of $ 4,000 now ... should be possible to score a used one at $ 2,000 sometimes in the future.

You didn't say CANON full frame DSLR... :lol:

Best regards,
Andy

[HKFEVER]

I saw couple newspaper photographers in Germany using Kodak DSLR, but the body cond. is not good and the shutter may up to their life already. Will you buy it?

[Cadwell]

Actually, this might happen earlier than you are thinking now.
According to DPReview, he Kodak SLR/C has a 'street price' of $ 4,000 now ... should be possible to score a used one at $ 2,000 sometimes in the future.

You didn't say CANON full frame DSLR... :lol:

Best regards,
Andy


Kodak? Those are the cameras that take those flash bars with 10 bulbs in that you have to turn over half way through, aren't they? And they cost $4,000... WOW!

[FlyingPete]

Kodak? Those are the cameras that take those flash bars with 10 bulbs in that you have to turn over half way through, aren't they? And they cost $4,000... WOW!

Yeah, they are a collectors item :D Try find that dodgy 110 film for them though :rolleyes:

I had one of those as my second camera, replaced my Kodak dual lens reflex, the type you look down into. Had to save up for the flash bulbs though!

[Cadwell]

Yeah, they are a collectors item :D Try find that dodgy 110 film for them though :rolleyes:


I'd best get my one out of the cupboard then... I'll take it down the antiques shop!

[HKFEVER]

Had to save up for the flash bulbs though!

I have a Canon III from 40s, that I can't find any flash bulbs for it. Any idea where I can find some?:p

[DocFrankenstein]

I have a Canon III from 40s, that I can't find any flash bulbs for it. Any idea where I can find some?:p
look into movie supply stores...

They waste tens thousands of them per film if it's set in 1930-1940. ;)

[DocFrankenstein]

And I didn't mean to ask this:
When will the NEW 1Ds MkV gonna cost 2K?

Merely this:

When will the used current cheaper full frame 1Ds gonna cost 2K?

And another thing... Will I be able to replace the shutter on that thing if it dies on me 10 years from now?

[HKFEVER]

And I didn't mean to ask this:
When will the NEW 1Ds MkV gonna cost 2K?

Merely this:

When will the used current cheaper full frame 1Ds gonna cost 2K?

And another thing... Will I be able to replace the shutter on that thing if it dies on me 10 years from now?

In Hong Kong, used 1DS released from newspaper company is around 3000-4000 depends on cond.. But no way to find the film count is true or not.

I brought two F5 from ebay before, but the shutter sound sounds funny compare to my original one.

[roanjohn]

In a year, I am hoping for the 1dMKII to be under 2000 USD (a used one). Let me know guys!!! whoever is selling thier gears!!! :-)

Ro1

[HKFEVER]

I checked with Canon before for replacing 1Ds sensor is roughtly USD1280.00 not including labour.

[DocFrankenstein]

I checked with Canon before for replacing 1Ds sensor is roughtly USD1280.00 not including labour.
Sensor or shutter mechanism? :confused:

[HKFEVER]

Sensor or shutter mechanism? :confused:

Sensor.

But not sure the cost of shutter. I guess shutter will cost roughly 200 + another 200 for the labour.

[rssfhs]

And I have a Polaroid from the 60s, but they don't make film for it anymore. :-(

[DocFrankenstein]

Sensor.

But not sure the cost of shutter. I guess shutter will cost roughly 200 + another 200 for the labour.
Why would you want to replace the sensor?

[kawter2]

honestly I dont understand why the size of the sensor matters??


The only issue I have ever seen is the relation of lens mm. It seems like most people have this thing in their head that full frame sensor is better quality, but sensor size vs film size (for anything other than effective focal length) is like comparing apples to disc brakes.

[Jesper]

Canon's 1-series cameras will always remain expensive, because they are professional level cameras.

If you would have asked "When will there be a full-frame EOS DSLR less than 2K" (not 1-series), I would have answered 3 to 4 years instead of "keep dreaming".

[Jon]

honestly I dont understand why the size of the sensor matters??


The only issue I have ever seen is the relation of lens mm. It seems like most people have this thing in their head that full frame sensor is better quality, but sensor size vs film size (for anything other than effective focal length) is like comparing apples to disc brakes.

Try taking an ultra-wide shot with a 20D. Even the new 10-22 EF-S only gets you to a 16 mm full frame. And you just can't get full frame circular fisheye on a DR sensor. I just pulled my Elan 7 out last night to show a friend what the 19-35 Tamron would do on her Rebel as compared to its kit lens. I can't get that coverage with my 15-30 Sigma! I may have to buy some film (if I can find an antique shop that carries it).

[ssim]

Try taking an ultra-wide shot with a 20D. Even the new 10-22 EF-S only gets you to a 16 mm full frame. And you just can't get full frame circular fisheye on a DR sensor.

While this may be true everyone that buys a digital camera should know exactly what they are getting. It is irritating to see people say, "yeah but I didn't know it had a 1.6 crop factor" and trying to somehow forward the blame back to Canon.

I continually perplexed why people are so hung up by the exacting mm on lenses. Everyone should know what their crop factor is and buy lenses accordingly if it is that important to them. The widest lens I have in my bag is the 16-35. At the end of the day I know that and that is going to be the choice in that focal length. Just suppose that there was no such thing as a previous 35mm format. This whole digi SLR was brand spanking new technology. If they called that 16mm lens, 16mm would most of be the wiser.

I stick by my previous post that it will be a long time before they make 1 series available at the pricing that the title is asking for without introducing a whole new line of pro level cameras.

[Persian-Rice]

honestly I dont understand why the size of the sensor matters??

The only issue I have ever seen is the relation of lens mm. It seems like most people have this thing in their head that full frame sensor is better quality, but sensor size vs film size (for anything other than effective focal length) is like comparing apples to disc brakes.

Bigger sensors will always have more potential for good high ISO performance. This also means they can fit more photosites onto the sensor thus giving ultimate detail. If Canon knows how to pull off that level of ISO performance with the 20D, they could do that much more with a larger sensor. In terms of print the more photosites also means better large-print performance, I bet the 1DS II can do a 20x30 print better then a 35mm film can. The larger photosites are also more capable of captuing full tonal range, which your average consumer dSLR isn't very good at. Take a picture with any 1 series(even the old ones) and a 20D and put them side by side and you will see some significant differnces.

It's not like comparing disk-brakes to apples. If a manufacturer like Canon can exploit what larger sensors are capable of, it's the same as why people buy a med-format/large-format camera. Improved quality over smaller formats.

Techincally and in terms of performance there are HUGE differnces. Technology is still far from perfect, speeds are still pretty slow and ISO performance can still be improved. I bet that the next 1Ds will be virtually noise free across the board.

It's not all about a crop factor.

[tim]

Zoom with your legs...

[Jon]

Zoom with your legs...

Doesn't always work. On the edge of a cliff (looking out across the canyon or whatever), if you can't get the bottom of the canyon, backing up won't do you any good because the edge of the cliff will cut off even more of the scene.

I stick by my previous post that it will be a long time before they make 1 series available at the pricing that the title is asking for without introducing a whole new line of pro level cameras.

Did you read Doc Frankenstein's first post, where he asked when the price of used full-frame Canon digitals would drop below 2K? What price Canon hangs on their latest new camera is irrelevant to the posted question. You can buy a D30 for under $400 now. Back in 2001, would you have expected to be able to buy a DSLR for that little? And that was the question.

[Andy_T]

Techincally and in terms of performance there are HUGE differnces.

You are oh so right.

I am always wondering why car manufacturer even bother with making 4-, 6-, or 8-cylinder engines, when everybody knows that a 12-cylinder engine is technically the best solution and gives the highest possible performance.
That would surely bring the ridiculously inflated prices for Ferraris down, and is this not what we all should be striving for?

I guess they just want to make more money from us hapless consumers selling us inferior technology :lol:

Best regards,
Andy

PS: Yes, I know, it's exaggerated. But the portion of photographers NEEDING full frame sensors is rather diminutive.

[HKFEVER]

Why would you want to replace the sensor?

Because I just want to know the selling price of the sensor.:lol:

[Jon]

PS: Yes, I know, it's exaggerated. But the portion of photographers NEEDING full frame sensors is rather diminutive.

Depends on how you define their "need". It may be for the sheer performance difference in the sensor (in which case, they'd be buying the newest, latest, and greatest), or it may be because they need the greater angle of coverage it'll give their lenses (in which case, a generation or so back is no big deal), or it may be so they can have film and digital cameras that they can use interchangably, without stopping to think about which lens they need for their pre-visualized shot (in which case, I can hear you say, "why don't they standardize on one or the other?"). I'd say that the percentage of photographers who never needed a wider lens than they had with them (all right, even if they were already shooting full-frame) is pretty small.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Used?

A 1Ds will drop to about 2K with one or two more body generations... in other words you'll at least have to wait for a 1Ds-3 or equivelent.

The MkII 1D pushed the oroiginal 1D down to the $2K mark,. but we are talking the $4,500.00 price point,.

...the 1Ds obviously started higher at over $7K... thus one new generation is not enough to push it that hard.

In fact a used 1Ds seems to still be higher in price used than the 1D MkII despite the fact that the 1D MkII is newer and superior to the 1Ds in EVERY way except for pure resolution and sensor size. (and who says MP isn't everything? it certainy seems to still command the market)

As for a push to full frame in everyones hands,. perhas short term ff will get more affordable,. but I still see the market going in the direction of the Olympus system,. (just done right)

ie: smaller sensors with higher density and thus smaller and more affordable lenses to do the job... at least for all but the real die hard pro.

I think the 35mm and Full frame sensor fromat will end up becoming a niche like MF and LF eventually.

[Persian-Rice]

Performance and practicality are two differnt things. There are the ones who need it, people who think they need it but actually don't, and the ones who have so much money that they could care less if they got a used A70 or a 1Ds MKII. The final type is the one who needs to stroke his/her ego and wants one for the sake of having one, no matter what it takes.

I work at Ferrari Maserati of Ontario in the summers, I will tell you one thing, none of those guys need a Ferrari, let alone be able to drive one to it's potential. When you work at Ferrari, you realize one thing really quickly, that ferrari "drivers" can't actually drive, so what the point of having a street ready racecar? It's the same with people who own the 1Ds II. Most of the people who own one don't actually know how to use it to it's potential, and frankly are crazy for buying one. But they still have the ability to say "my balls are bigger" when it comes to equipment.

It would be an understatement to say that people are guilty of overindulgance or gluttony.

[FlipsidE]

It's coming...just not terribly soon I don't think. Once the quality Medium Format Digital Backs get to be about the same price as the 1D series is today, I think we'll see full frame sensor camers with the 1D quality in the $2000 range. Probably won't be fully up to 1D standards of today, but I don't think it'll be too far off.

Man, do I look forward to the day when Medium Format Digital Backs get to be in the $1500 range...even for entry level. I'd probably have to go medium format when that happens.

FlipsidE

[DocFrankenstein]

honestly I dont understand why the size of the sensor matters??


The only issue I have ever seen is the relation of lens mm.
Just means you didn't look deep enough into it.

1) 1.6 crop cameras have dim viewfinders by definition. 2.52 times dimmer to be exact... (and that's not counting the difference in build/optics of 1Ds viewfinder and rebel)

2) full frame cameras have more shallow DOF. It means that the L lens you paid 2K for, not only gives you the same shutter speed, but also the same DOF and the circle of confusion values.

Take a look at these diagrams:
http://andrew4137.fotopic.net/p11670568.html
http://andrew4137.fotopic.net/p11670569.html

Red is the lines of light that form the image
Greens are the FOV
The length of yellow is either the circle of confusion or is proportional to the sircle of confusion... I forgot...
The POV and the perspective is kept constant in those.

Serves nicely to illustrate #3:
3) EFS lenses (if there's ever gonna be a semi-decent lineup of those) will have to be 1-2 stops faster than EF lenses to perform the same way. That's technically impossible and canon will never make EFS lenses like that.

4) 1Ds comes with a GRIP
5) I will finally be able to use MF lenses with no problems
6) the viewfinder has a prism... and 100% coverage.
7) Shutter doesn't die...
8) You don't need to point a laser at people to focus when you're shooting a dim party...

Cheers

[FlyingPete]

Well well, cleaning out my subscriptions and found this one. It has now been two years and we don't seem any closer to a full fram 1 series lower than 2K :rolleyes:

In fact (correct me if I am wrong), but the model of full fram 1d series is still the same?

[jacobsen1]

Actually I'd say we are getting VERY close to a FF 1 series under $2k...
The 5D used is sitting around $2300 and the 1Ds is very close to the same. $2500 tops.
Ben

[Muggles]

Well well, cleaning out my subscriptions and found this one. It has now been two years and we don't seem any closer to a full fram 1 series lower than 2K :rolleyes:



We're actually pretty close now. During a 5-month period between Oct '06 and Feb '07, you could've bought a brand new EOS 5D for around $2150 with rebates. Sure the rebates were a hassle, but a lot of peoople did take advantage of that opportunity.

$2150 after rebates in October 2006. Don't you think the price will fall below the $2000 mark (without rebates) sometime in 2008? Especially when the EOS 5D is superceded by a newer model and the Nikon D300 is released.

[davesrose]

Well the 5D's sensor has almost all the same specs as the original 1Ds: only difference is that the 5D is more sensitive then the older 1Ds. Because of its ISO performance, the 5D is better for me then a used 1Ds Mark I. I'm pretty sure Canon is going to keep their current pricing structure....when the 1Ds Mark III comes out, Canon will find ways to fit the current 1Ds sensor into the next generation 5D. Canon probably feels that the 5D is the best price point for a serious amateur or professional who just wants manual FF.

[jacobsen1]

when the 1Ds Mark III comes out, Canon will find ways to fit the current 1Ds sensor into the next generation 5D.

doubtful as it's not using a 1Ds sensor now.
They'll make a new one for it I'd bet.

[Tareq]

KEEP DREAMING

[davesrose]

doubtful as it's not using a 1Ds sensor now.
They'll make a new one for it I'd bet.

I meant the overall specs: the current 5D has the MPs and fps of the 1Ds. So if we're going to speculate, my speculation is that the Mark II 5D is going to be 16MP with 4 fps like the Mark II 1Ds is now:D

[calicokat]

Still keep dreaming I think

[Jon]

Doc's original question was when he'd be able to get a used 1-series FF. I think we're pretty close. Adorama has a used, excellent cond. 1Ds (11 MP) for $2250. Care to guess what a 1Ds will go for after the 1Ds III ships?

[davesrose]

Care to guess what a 1Ds will go for after the 1Ds III ships?

By that time, who would want a used 1Ds? At least I feel that getting a used dSLR is a lot more iffy then buying a used film SLR: with dSLR...you don't know where that sensor has been!!!:lol:

[Jim_T]

Am I the only one who remembers back in 2000 when the 3 Megapixel EOS D30 came on the scene? It was the same price as the 5D is now. Mass production and cost cutting measures have dropped the 1.6 crop DSLRs down to the sub $800 level. It didn't take long at all to drop from $2800 down to under $1000.

With the popularity of the 5D, they're into mass producing full frame sensors. This will certainly bring down the price drastically. We'll see a full frame DSLR for under $2000 in a year or so.

[KevC]

By that time, who would want a used 1Ds? At least I feel that getting a used dSLR is a lot more iffy then buying a used film SLR: with dSLR...you don't know where that sensor has been!!!:lol:

People like me =) I picked up a 1D when the MK2N was out for a while. Been loving every second of it. It's got well over 100k clicks on it, still going strong. If it goes kaput, I'll just ask Canon to replace the shutter/mirror/sensor assembly and bam! basically new camera :D

I might pick up the 1Ds....

[Choderboy]

People like me =) I picked up a 1D when the MK2N was out for a while. Been loving every second of it. It's got well over 100k clicks on it, still going strong. If it goes kaput, I'll just ask Canon to replace the shutter/mirror/sensor assembly and bam! basically new camera :D

I might pick up the 1Ds....

A friends 1D2 had to have a shutter replacement recently (30,000 actuations) Canon advised that if the sensor had been scratched by the broken shutter (they were unable to see at first inspection) that it would be an "uneconomical" repair. Have you checked with Canon that your plan is feasible?

[Billginthekeys]

A friends 1D2 had to have a shutter replacement recently (30,000 actuations) Canon advised that if the sensor had been scratched by the broken shutter (they were unable to see at first inspection) that it would be an "uneconomical" repair. Have you checked with Canon that your plan is feasible?
thats why there is a filter over the sensor, they generally replace it when they replace the shutter, its an about $250 job. also, he replaced the shutter with only 30,000 shots?!?

[350D_Noob]

I voted for 6 months because that's what I'm hoping for. I guess I'll just keep on dreaming, though.:confused:

[cosworth]

Canon will find ways to fit the current 1Ds sensor into the next generation 5D.

I'd like the the other way around.

I will say it again, there is a market for a 1 series with the 5d sensor in it at a reasonable price point.

[Choderboy]

thats why there is a filter over the sensor, they generally replace it when they replace the shutter, its an about $250 job. also, he replaced the shutter with only 30,000 shots?!?

Shutter was replaced as it failed. (yes , genuine 30,000 actuations , camera was 1 owner) Canon service advised about the possible uneconomical repair. Lucky for him the sensor was not damaged. It seems logical that the sensor damage occurrs often enough if Canon warn of that possibility. My friend was shocked to find out that a 1 series could become an uneconimacal repair less than 2 years after purchase.
(luckily it was 2 weeks short of 2 years, so Canon would have supplied a replacement , but if the shutter had held together for another couple of weeks it would have been a very stressfull couple of weeks waiting to hear if he had a museum piece or not)


And heres a pic:

[Billginthekeys]

Shutter was replaced as it failed. (yes , genuine 30,000 actuations , camera was 1 owner) Canon service advised about the possible uneconomical repair. Lucky for him the sensor was not damaged. It seems logical that the sensor damage occurrs often enough if Canon warn of that possibility. My friend was shocked to find out that a 1 series could become an uneconimacal repair less than 2 years after purchase.
(luckily it was 2 weeks short of 2 years, so Canon would have supplied a replacement , but if the shutter had held together for another couple of weeks it would have been a very stressfull couple of weeks waiting to hear if he had a museum piece or not)
wow. 30,000 is aweful low, there must have been something wrong with the shutter more than usual, ive heard of no one having trouble replacing it before. also, canon still replaces the original 1D's and Drebel shutters, so i dont think he would have had a problem finding the part. Not taking anything out against you, i just find it odd.

[Choderboy]

wow. 30,000 is aweful low, there must have been something wrong with the shutter more than usual, ive heard of no one having trouble replacing it before. also, canon still replaces the original 1D's and Drebel shutters, so i dont think he would have had a problem finding the part. Not taking anything out against you, i just find it odd.

I found it more than odd. Without getting too carried away , it made me completely rethink 1 series ownership. I can see for a pro no probs , they get the use (and income) but for an amateur , without warranty , I would not consider a used 1 series unless price was incredibly low.
The dealer we both use has since stated that low actuation shutter count for 1 series is not unusual. (his first response was that it was very rare)
Canon service centre stated it was "not very common". I think the fact they were so quick to warn of uneconmical repair indicates the problem is more common than they claim.

edit - I posted a pic of the shutter in my previous post

[Billginthekeys]

yea, i saw that. my 1D had over 90K actuations on it before i sold it, going strong, but thats suprising, even my 20D has more than 30k clicks.

[jacobsen1]

Am I the only one who remembers back in 2000 when the 3 Megapixel EOS D30 came on the scene? It was the same price as the 5D is now. Mass production and cost cutting measures have dropped the 1.6 crop DSLRs down to the sub $800 level. It didn't take long at all to drop from $2800 down to under $1000.

With the popularity of the 5D, they're into mass producing full frame sensors. This will certainly bring down the price drastically. We'll see a full frame DSLR for under $2000 in a year or so.

I doubt it just because the wafer size and yield of usable sensors will always be a very big issue with FF digital. Also there is NO competition in this area, so they aren't getting pushed.

I would love to see a 1 series with the 5D sensor for ~$3k though. There's an idea, but it's too close to the 1DmIII IMHO to be worth pursuing for canon.

Ben