Just Calibrated My Display..Help.

[Jonny]

Guys,

Last week i set away 70+ images to the lab for print and although they looked fine on my display the prints were terrible. I knew that i needed to calibrate my display but in the past the cost of the software and sensor always put me off. So after this i dug deep and bought Photocal and Spyder.

After calibrating my display and making sure it was using this new profile i edited 5 of the photos and resubmitted them to the lab. They came back looking great!

So now what? How should i have photoshop set up?

In photoshop CS i looked at the colourspace setting and i can set this to many options. In the list of possible colourspaces there are the normal Adobe RGB, sRGB and now my Photocal profile that i created for my display. Do i need to be using this Photocal for my photoshop work or should i use the same colourspace that i have set on my camera?

So in short should i have:

Display = Photocal profile AND Photoshop = Photocal colourspace

OR

Display = Photocal profile AND Photoshop = Adobe RGB/sRGB


I used to have Photoshop set to Adobe RGB but this was the colurspace i was using that returned the bad prints, was this just because my monitor was not calibrated?


Thanks for any advice you can give me, i am trying desperately hard to understand all this colour management stuff :-s

[johnellisphotography]

Congrats on buying a spyder. They are as neccesary to good prints and glass lens elements are to good images.

I'll give you the basic set up that I use. Its simple and effective.

The ICC profile that the Photocal software created is used by a service that is similar to Adobe gamma and corrects the colors on the monitor(not just in PS) to be as close as possible to "standard". (NOTE: remove adobe gamma from your start up folder so it doesnt compete with Photocal. Unless your on a mac, then i dont know.)

In PS, youll want your colorspace to be set per image based on what colorspace the image was taken in. This should be done by default if you havent changed anything.

If you send them to a lab that uses sRGB(most do), then all you do is edit the image to liking in PS while its in sRGB colorspace and in theory, if you have a good monitor calibration and the lab uses the right ICC's on their end everything is peachy.

If you are printing your own in PS, go to the print preview dialog and set the source space to the colorspace of the image, and the output color space to the ICC profile for the exact paper and ink combo you are using, then print. Be sure that your printer driver is set to NOT color manage. Otherwise you would have done it twice and youll get a strong color cast.

Another benefit of having a calibrated screen is that you can accurately proof your prints first. Go to View>Proof>Custom and select the ICC profile for the paper you are using. Select the black checkbox and the one about paper white. This will give you a better idea of how the printer will handle density and shadow detail on the actual print. Don't adjust colors to look good under proof. It will mess up the proper conversion from sRGB(or AdobeRGB) to the printing space. Get your colors good on screen and if everything is calibrated correctly, the conversion should happen as perfectly as it can.

[kawter2]

Guys,
I used to have Photoshop set to Adobe RGB but this was the colurspace i was using that returned the bad prints, was this just because my monitor was not calibrated?


Adobe RGB is a GREAT color space, but the problem is that it has color information that your printer probably cant reproduce (out-of gamut)

So when you print, the labs machine just slams the "out-of-gamut" colors to the color closest that it can print.

However any edits in PS (color levels saturation sharpening etc..) it is the best idea to take the pic in Adobe RGB do edit them in ADOBE RGB and then when you save them for print convert them to sRGB to be safe with your printer

[Jesper]

Have a look at Photoshop CS and Colour Management (http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps8-colour/ps8_1.htm). It explains colour management and how to setup Photoshop.

A few short tips:

- Your working space in Photoshop must be set to a standard colour space, such as Adobe RGB or sRGB. Do NOT set your working space to your monitor profile.

- Make sure that you remove Adobe Gamma from the Start / Programs / Startup menu (Windows); it interferes with the Spyder software.

- Before using the Spyder, make sure your monitor is warmed up (if it is a CRT monitor); leave it on for at least 30 minutes before profiling.

- If the lab does not understand colour management and ICC profiles, make sure the images you send to the lab are in sRGB (so it's best to set your working space in Photoshop to sRGB), because that's what their equiment most likely expects, even when they don't know it themselves.

- If they do know about colour management (not very likely...), let them give you the ICC profile of their printer and convert your images to the colour space of their printer (Photoshop CS: Image / Adjust / Convert to Profile) before sending them in.

[mbze430]

- If the lab does not understand colour management and ICC profiles, make sure the images you send to the lab are in sRGB (so it's best to set your working space in Photoshop to sRGB), because that's what their equiment most likely expects, even when they don't know it themselves.

- If they do know about colour management (not very likely...), let them give you the ICC profile of their printer and convert your images to the colour space of their printer (Photoshop CS: Image / Adjust / Convert to Profile) before sending them in.

For the TRUE ICC workflow. You must have their printer's ICC profile for the SPECIFIC paper they use. So if they use Royal Kodak, Royal Matte, and Fujichroma...you'll need to have the one ICC Profile specific to those paper you plan to print on.

If they don't, PROFILE your own.

Of course the sRGB works too....but I find that it only matches 80-87%...depending how well they keep their machine calibrated + maintained. Of course if you are not doing critical work, that might just do fine.

[Jesper]

If they don't, PROFILE your own.
Making your own printer profile (or actually profile for a specific combination of printer, ink and paper) is unfortunately not as easy and cheap as calibrating and profiling your monitor. You need special, expensive ($1,000+ ?) hardware to measure the colours. There are some people or companies that can make a printer profile for you if you don't want to or can't buy the hardware. They send you a special test image, you print it according to their instructions, you send the print to them and they'll measure the colours and create the profile for you. They'll probably charge you between $25 and $100 per profile.

[mbze430]

Yes this is true. It just depends how far you take your photography. I personally slaved over 100+ hrs on the profiles I have. Its not an easy task, and by no means its for everyone.

My main point is that to be in a true ICC Managed workflow, your input, output and display must be all profiled.

[scottbergerphoto]

Once you have the monitor profile saved as your default profile, you don't select that as a choice anywhere else. It is used in the background by Windows. You have three choices on how you set up PS's Print Preview:
1. Don't color manage, leave the box More Options unchecked, and use the canned settings in your Printer Driver for the paper you are using.
2. Color Manage using your own ICC profiles, which are often supplied by the printer manufacturer. To do this, in Source Space should be the color space of the image file, in Output should be the ICC profile for the paper/ink you are using. For example for Premium Glossy Paper and my Epson 2200, I select SP2200PremiumGlossy-PK. In you printer Driver, select No Color Adjustment.
3. Color managed by the printer. Set your Source the same as #2. Set your output to Printer Color Management. In your Printer Driver, select the manufacturers recommended setting for the paper you are using.
Regards,
Scott

[Jonny]

Once you have the monitor profile saved as your default profile, you don't select that as a choice anywhere else. It is used in the background by Windows. You have three choices on how you set up PS's Print Preview:
Scott

Thanks Scott and everyone else for your time, it is really apprieciated.

Let me just clear things up a little. I am not concerned about profiling my printer at this time as i print very little at home and what i do print is just quick family snaps.
What i really need to do was ensure that the files i upload to my web based lab come back looking good.
I spoke to the lab today and the said that there will be very little difference in the prints if i send them images created in sRGB or Adobe RGB


So am i right in saying this:

My display = Photocal profile (the one created with my software and Spyder)
Photoshop CS = Adobe RGB
Canon 20D = Adobe RGB

Thanks again....i am getting there

and thanks Jesper for the link

[Jesper]

My display = Photocal profile (the one created with my software and Spyder)
Photoshop CS = Adobe RGB
Canon 20D = Adobe RGB
Yes, that would be right (I guess you mean with "My display" is what's set in Windows, what you can see when you right-click on the desktop, choose Properties, Settings, Advanced, Colour Management).

But remember, before you send your image to the lab, to convert to sRGB (Photoshop CS: Image / Adjustment / Convert to Profile). Also, for posting on the web it's best to use sRGB.

The reason for using sRGB in these cases is that it usually comes out looking OK in software that does not support colour management. If you view an image that's in Adobe RGB with software that doesn't support colour management, the colours usually look flat and undersaturated.

[Spatch]

Jesper,

Quick question on what you said above. If you are running a profile in colour management under desktop in Windows, should you also remove Adobe Gamma from the Start menu? I have a Packard Bell monitor and I have this profile set for colour management under desktop. However, I also have Adobe Gamma still running. I have not profiled my monitor, but am just using the profile that was supplied with it.

The reason I ask is that everybody says that if you profile your monitor with the Spyder (for example) then you should disable Adobe Gamma - the reason being that the software supplied with the Spyder runs in the background of Windows (which is why you have to remove Adobe Gamma). However, I also assume that the profile generated by the Spyder should then be used for colour management under desktop (or is this not required when running the Spyder software?

Any clarification would help.

Thanks.

[Jesper]

Spatch,

No, in that case you don't have to remove Adobe Gamma. In fact, when you've set the profile in Windows (right-click desktop, choose Properties / Settings / Advanced / Colour Management), then Adobe Gamma will probably pick up that profile and setup the video card. When you have the software for the Spyder installed, it will try to do the same and strange things will happen (you don't know which of the two runs first, and maybe the video card settings might get messed up if two programs try to change the settings).

If you're using a Spyder, you should set the profile generated with the Spyder software as the monitor profile in Windows - in fact, the Spyder software does that automatically for you.

Note that with printers, the factory made profiles that you might get on a CD with the printer usually are reasonably good, but it's a different story for monitors. You are now using a factory made profile for your monitor. However, there is so much variation between monitors, and how a monitor displays images also depends a lot on the settings (brightness, contrast, colour temperature etc.), that factory made profiles for monitors often are not very accurate at all. I think that making your own profile with Adobe Gamma might be better than using a factory made profile, but if you really want your monitor to be accurate, you really need a device like a Spyder.

Before I bought a Spyder, I was also using Adobe Gamma, but the profile I created with it wasn't very accurate. I could notice it especially when I did a soft proof in Photoshop - the image would get a nasty green cast if I did that. That problem is gone since I'm using the Spyder to profile my monitor.

[Spatch]

Jesper,

Thanks for the clarification, yes what I currently have is the default Packard Bell profile (I agree that it is probably not that accurate) with Adobe Gamma running. However, what I have also done is to adjust the colour correction for the monitor using the display card software (the software allows different levels of gamma, brightness and contrast for each colour). This way I have matched the display to the printout from my profiled printer. If I use solely Adobe Gamma then the picture does not match what I print out.

If I could afford the Spyder I would get one and do it properly (but I am currently saving for a i9950), so for the time being I am having to use the above set-up to ensure that what I see is what I get.

Mark.