Canon 20Da from Canon Japan

[Olegis]

Just saw this at DPReview.com - Canon Japan introduced the EOS 20Da camera without the hot mirror in front of the sensor, which makes the camera especially sutable for IR and astrophotography. In addition, the camera has some kind of semi-transparent mirror which will be used for live-preview on the camera LCD.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0502/05021405canoneos20da.asp
http://www.canon-sales.co.jp/camera/eosd/20da/index.html

[Jesper]

Wow, that's a surprise - I certainly didn't expect an upgrade of the 20D so soon!

[Olegis]

It's not really an upgrade, it's more like turning the 20D into one specialty camera (you can use the 20Da as a regular camera with a special IR-cut filter in front of the lens - as written at DPReview.com).

[wibbly]

The most interesting point to me is the the mirror, enabling preview on the LCD. A first? Obvious when you think about it ;-)

Oh well, there goes the (good) battery life...

John

[gcogger]

... and the bright optical viewfinder?

[CoolToolGuy]

Semi-transparent mirrors are nothing new for Canon. The first one was the Pellix, which was introduced in 1965. The mirror didn't flip up, so you could watch the shot all the way through the exposure. Look here:

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/f_camera.html

Interesting that they have provided LCD pre-viewing - could this be a indicator of things to come for the regular DSLRs?

Have Fun,

[Andy D]

Interesting that they have provided LCD pre-viewing - could this be a indicator of things to come for the regular DSLRs?

I hope not! ;)

[FlipsidE]

I hope not! ;)
- I second that.

FlipsidE

[roanjohn]

.............I was hoping to see specs of the new Rebel replacement..........instead I see specs for the 20Da............."a specialty camera"...............interesting move Canon.

Ro1

[CoolToolGuy]

.............I was hoping to see specs of the new Rebel replacement..........instead I see specs for the 20Da............."a specialty camera"...............interesting move Canon.

Ro1

Quite interesting - with many folks watching to see an announcement about what we expect (Drebel replacement) Canon pitches up something we didn't expect. Quite a good PR move in my estimation.

Have Fun,

[sdommin]

If Canon is going to get into the "specialty camera" market, why don't they introduce a pure black & white camera? I think that would sell better than an IR/astro camera.

Is anyone else getting tired of IR photos or is it just me?

[aam1234]

Totally agree with Scott. IR gets old very fast, and B&W has a bigger audience.

[Belmondo]

Totally agree with Scott. IR gets old very fast, and B&W has a bigger audience.

Remember, though, that IR especially has commercial/scientific application. IR as an artform could possibly get repetitive, but IMHO not when it's done well.

[slejhamer]

If Canon is going to get into the "specialty camera" market, why don't they introduce a pure black & white camera?


Haven't you heard about the new "D-Rebel BW" model? Canon have removed the noise filtration so that every picture looks like Tri-X pushed to ISO 1600...

:p

[CoolToolGuy]

Remember, though, that IR especially has commercial/scientific application. IR as an artform could possibly get repetitive, but IMHO not when it's done well.

This may well be where it came from. Canon might have gotten a request (perhaps an order?) for an IR (or astro) model from a large customer and thought they could make a go at it as a special order for the masses.

As these commercial uses switch from film to digital it can be in Canon's best interest to respond. In years past it was often Ni*on who became dominant in industries like opthalmic photography because the specialized equipment (fundus camera) was made for a specific body mount. Canon now has the lead in digital, I hope they keep it.

Have Fun,

[dbump]

Interesting that they have provided LCD pre-viewing - could this be a indicator of things to come for the regular DSLRs?
I hope not! ;)

I'm curious, I've seen this sentiment before among DSLR owners, and I don't understand. Why the aversion, or even antipathy for LCD preview? I can see how live preview (at least with current, low-resolution LCDs) would be preferable for most shots, in terms of brightness and clarity, but wouldn't it be nice to have the option of using the LCD to get a shot rather than lying down in, say, a 33 degree (F) stream bed to use the eyepiece (having faced that dilema, personally)?

Is this a paradigm, or are there genuine reasons to never, ever use an electronic preview that I'm missing?

Don't get me wrong--not all paradigms are bad. Case in point, one of the fellows who popularized the idea of 'paradigm shift' often illustrated his point by talking about his own invention, a bicycle saddle with no 'nose'. Despite his claims, it's actually a horrible saddle, and in the 20 years since he introduced it, it's fallen back into obscurity, because it left you with absolutely no balance on the bike. Whoops! So I guess that's my question--is LCD preview a department store fad that should be forgotten/is only suitable for clueless amatuers, or is it a potentially legitimate successor to optical preview (assuming manufacturers moved to XGA+ resolutions for the LCD)?

[FlyingPete]

I'm curious, I've seen this sentiment before among DSLR owners, and I don't understand. Why the aversion, or even antipathy for LCD preview? I can see how live preview (at least with current, low-resolution LCDs) would be preferable for most shots, in terms of brightness and clarity, but wouldn't it be nice to have the option of using the LCD to get a shot rather than lying down in, say, a 33 degree (F) stream bed to use the eyepiece (having faced that dilema, personally)?

Is this a paradigm, or are there genuine reasons to never, ever use an electronic preview that I'm missing?

Don't get me wrong--not all paradigms are bad. Case in point, one of the fellows who popularized the idea of 'paradigm shift' often illustrated his point by talking about his own invention, a bicycle saddle with no 'nose'. Despite his claims, it's actually a horrible saddle, and in the 20 years since he introduced it, it's fallen back into obscurity, because it left you with absolutely no balance on the bike. Whoops! So I guess that's my question--is LCD preview a department store fad that should be forgotten/is only suitable for clueless amatuers, or is it a potentially legitimate successor to optical preview (assuming manufacturers moved to XGA+ resolutions for the LCD)?

Those of us that have used a live preview screen appreciate what it can be used for, and understand its limitations. I for one would prefer a optical view finder but would find use for a 'live preview' funtion, especially if it was the 'flip' style found on the G Series Powershots.

There are a lot of technical reasons why it is not pratical for general use as well. But beware this topic like the 'X-Factor' is a can of worms :rolleyes:

[roanjohn]

I agree DBUMP!!! I for one would love to take photos through my LCD screen....I find that looking through my viewfinder after a while becomes tiring..........and it puts a strain to my already flat nose!!!

:-)

Ro1

[dbump]

Thanks, Peter.

Yes, I was concerned about opening that can, and I tried to couch it in reasonably relaxed terms for that reason (not sure if I was successful or not). Curiosity killed the cat--but satisfaction brought it back. (Original, full quote by Benjamin Franklin)

If there's already a thread covering the technical problems with LCD preview, can you post a link here?

I'm all too aware of some limitations of the LCD, having used one extensively, but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something about a dual-preview camera being inherently inferior to an optical-only preview?

[Jon]

The main problem I'd have with a pellicle mirror enabling a live LCD display is that those things will cause some light loss for both the sensor and the viewfinder if they're fixed. If the mirror swung out of the way, as per "normal" DSLRs, I'd be worried that the unreinforced (because necessarily open back) mirror would be more fragile than a "normal" one, plus there'd have to be a secondary shutter/shield to blank out the focussing screen area so you don't get stray light leaking in.

[Cadenza]

- I second that.

FlipsidE

Don't use the feature, then. The rest of us want it,
specially if it flips out and twists! :-)

[PacAce]

Problem with the live see-through option is that with part of the light going to the sensor it's that much less going to the viewfinder and I, for one, would like my viewfinder as bright as possible and not the other way around. So it's not just a matter of not using it if we don't like it.

[Jon]

I was just over at the Canon Japan site, and while I don't speak or read Japanese, I believe that it's just going to show the image during the actual exposure (or possibly with the mirror locked up). Showing the image on the LCD with mirror lock-up for astro use wouldn't be any big deal since the times are generally much longer. They'd have to change shutter action to cut down power consumption for long exposures and allow longer intervals of locked-up mirror before shutter release.

[LouDawg]

Judging from the Google translation on the Canon Japanese site, it seems that the 'With the EOS 20Da you are in a state where the mirror [can be] lifted, [resulting in a] live image of the image pickup element...'

So basically I read that as you can lockup the mirror and then use the LCD, not a semitransparent mirror.

[blackviolet]

it would be really cool if they put a sim card slot, so i could use the new body as a phone. oh, yeah - and they could make the lcd a touch sensitive w/ pda functions, it would be perfect.





not... :o

[CoolToolGuy]

it would be really cool if they put a sim card slot, so i could use the new body as a phone. oh, yeah - and they could make the lcd a touch sensitive w/ pda functions, it would be perfect.


not... :o

How about IPOD compatibility? :rolleyes: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have Fun,

[booggerg]

WOW I'm glad I didn't jump on the 20D bandwagon.. this "a" upgrade will be superb!

[dbump]

So basically I read that as you can lockup the mirror and then use the LCD, not a semitransparent mirror.

If that's the case, it sounds like a great implementation since it wouldn't reduce the functionality of the viewfinder for those who object to that. Further, it would add functionality when using lockup, since you wouldn't lose your preview. Sounds too elegant to be true, almost.

[CyberDyneSystems]

An IR capabel 20D,.. now they tell me. :lol:

I have been looking for either an IR converted D30, or just a cheap used D30 that I could do the IR conversion on ... for well over a year.

I bought one yesterday! :( :( :(

Had I ANY Idea that Canon would be making such a thing as the 20D"A" ... I would have conceivably held off to get that instead :(

Oh well,. my used D30 certainly will cost a whole lot less in the long run,.


...and I do finally get a decent BP511 charger again! :) :lol:

[PacAce]

...and I do finally get a decent BP511 charger again! :) :lol:

I'm sure you would get a decent BP511 charger with the 20Da, too, but I suppose that's beside the point. :lol:

[CyberDyneSystems]

Nah,. I hate the one that comes with the 20D.. it doesn't have a cord :(

The D30 on the other hand has the nifty dual well charger! It's also allready equipped for DC charging from a car cigarette lighter ;)

Gotta love it,..

[pradeep1]

If Canon is going to get into the "specialty camera" market, why don't they introduce a pure black & white camera? I think that would sell better than an IR/astro camera.

Is anyone else getting tired of IR photos or is it just me?

A lot of camera manufacturers also have a high end optical business for such things as microscopes, astronomy, etc. I know that some of the most expensive and high-end microscopes are made by Olympus and Leica. These babies cost on the upwards of $100,000...and that's just for the lens. You can view chromosomes with your eyes directly with these optical beauties..amazing resolving power for optical glass. A lot of these systems also have a camera attachment. It's usually an adapter for you to attach one of their cameras to take pictures of what you are looking at. The older Olympus microscopes can take an OM mount SLR body and the Leica can take a Leica body. So I am sure Nikon has a high end professional imaging system that this 20Da fits into nicely. Of course, they'll mark up the camera 200-300% above the consumer cost when sold as part of this system.

[MarkH]

I'm curious, I've seen this sentiment before among DSLR owners, and I don't understand. Why the aversion, or even antipathy for LCD preview? I can see how live preview (at least with current, low-resolution LCDs) would be preferable for most shots, in terms of brightness and clarity, but wouldn't it be nice to have the option of using the LCD to get a shot rather than lying down in, say, a 33 degree (F) stream bed to use the eyepiece (having faced that dilema, personally)?

Is this a paradigm, or are there genuine reasons to never, ever use an electronic preview that I'm missing?


I would like to use a swivelling LCD for preview at times, however the D-SLR design is superior to the P&S design that allows the preview. First and foremost is the difference in the sensor, the D-SLR sensor is not designed for live video out. The sensors that feature live video out are inferior in image quality due to extra shift registers that are taking up space and reduce the surface area available for capture. I would rather have the superior sensor, even if it means that I don't get a live video preview.

Also the shutter and mirror get in the way.

Just remember that you can always take a picture, decide you don't like it and call it a preview, then take another picture. Call the 2nd picture the photo and the first picture the preview. In fact I often get my camera out of the bag and snap a picture, then I check the picture to see if the settings are right, then I delete the picture.

Now a sensor + swivel LCD that clips onto the viewfinder for composing would give a convenient way of composing at difficult angles without compromising image quality.

[KenW]

Hummm, I wonder when it will come to US.

[dbump]

Now a sensor + swivel LCD that clips onto the viewfinder for composing would give a convenient way of composing at difficult angles without compromising image quality.

What a fantastic, simple idea! The preview snapshot would be of much higher clarity than the muddy preview of a P&S. I'd buy a DSLR with that feature set in a heart beat.

Thanks for the info on the sensor design--I'd read something that alluded to the fact that DSLR sensors weren't designed to feed live preview, but it didn't go beyond that. Makes sense now! That's exactly the kind of tidbit I suspected I was missing.

Though now I wonder if the previous interpretation of the mirror lockup/live preview on the 20Da feature means there's a different sensor array in the new model? Seems unlikely...

[PacAce]

Hummm, I wonder when it will come to US.
Probably sometime in September if they work it the same way they did with the Black-bodied DRebel which was also only available in Japan when it was first introduced.

[PacAce]

Though now I wonder if the previous interpretation of the mirror lockup/live preview on the 20Da feature means there's a different sensor array in the new model? Seems unlikely...
The way the 20Da works is that when you press the shutter button, the mirror goes up and the shutter curtains open up. You then get a "live view" of what's being exposed. But that's as "live" as you're going to get. What I still haven't determined is if that "shot" is already considered as committed or if you have to take another action to tell the camera "yup, I'm done adjusting my focus and everything so go ahead and make the exposure count as a real shot".

[DocFrankenstein]

You can view chromosomes with your eyes directly with these optical beauties..amazing resolving power for optical glass.
You can view chromosomes with any decent "student" microscope which costs around 500 or so. You just have to stain them.

But when you want to track a single fluorescent protein... that's a different story.