I made her cry...Now what??

[g-money]

Hey all, I couple weeks back I did a Senior shoot for a lovely young lady. She and her mother and I went out and shot for the better part of an hour and half. I thought I had gotten what was a nice assortment of pictures for her to choose from. I few I posted in this thread http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=577594

Her mother had told me she needed one 5x7 pretty quick. So I called her after giving her a couple days to view the pics and spoke with the mom. Well, needless to say I was heart broke when her mother told me her daughter cried for nearly an hour after she seen them and doesn't want to see them again. She said she thinks she looks fat and horrible in them. That her hair is a wreck.

Wow, I really didn't know what to say. They mom said it's not you it's her. She has a small weight problem and for some reason see herself as very fat in the these photos. Mom thinks it was the shirt (blue one) that looks bad. I have to agree that the shirt was not the most flattering for her the way it hung.

Anyway, I was at a loss. I offered to do a reshoot with her and let her choose a different shirt this time, but unsure if she will take me up on it. Anything else I could have done. Anyone else dealt with a situation like this? I feel really bad that I hurt this young ladies feelings.

Thanks
Greg

[stathunter]

Your photos look great. Tell her she is lucky you do not charge by the pound or it would be an expensive shoot..........ha-- just joking. I do not think she looks fat - I think she is a very cute girl.
Tell her mom that you posted her daughters photos on the internet and there are several older men who are interested. :)

[laurenfitz]

Ugh. This kind of thing drives me nuts. Just last week I did fall portraits for a family. The photos were beautiful but the woman hates them because, and I quote, "My hair needs to be cut and my husband looks bored." She was all upset because of things that were out of my control and asked for a free reshoot after she got her hair done.

I took a look at your photos and they are great. I wouldn't feel badly. We are all our own worst critic and obviously this young girl has some self-image problems. I wouldn't have offered to reshoot her because, from what I see, she looks amazing in all of them.

Please don't beat yourself up over it. This obviously goes much deeper than your session with her.

Sorry. Stuff like this is no fun.

[lindsayanng]

That is sad.. mostly because that girl is not even CLOSE to fat!!

It is kinda nice to hear that you actually feel bad for the girl and not angry that she didntlike your shoot. I mean, atleast you understand that its not you, its a teenage girl thing.

If you do get taken up on the re-shoot, let her look at the pictures after you take a few. I is going to be a process getting the RIGHT picture because we all know what teenage girls can be like.. just be patient. I was one of those teenage girls once.. Low self esteem and really frustrated.

My advice would be to pay REALLY close attention to the positions you put her in.. For instance, there is an image of her sitting on a wall leaning over. Its a beautifull image, but it is NOT flattering for the tummy.

Give her LOTS of direction on how to "hold it in" she will probably be less offended if you say "tilt your shoulders back and chest up" Dont actually SAY "suck it in"

Pay attention to the arms a lot. Make sure that her arms arent a big portion of the shot..

let her check herself in a mirror as often as she wants to..

These are just my opinions from a once teenage girl.. You CAN get her to love herself in the pcitures, but it HAS to be her way.

I think your pictures are BEAUTIFUL! I especially love the close ups.. But ya know.. its crappy.. Just be super sensitive the next time.. even with a different girl. Assume ALL of them are that self consious

[Permagrin]

I think you handled it well. And I looked at the shots. They were very good. Which makes me realize that the girl's self image is very skewed (poor thing) and that probably she won't like anything of herself. Though you never know. But I do think you handled it well. Realize though, that it wasn't you that made her cry. (I know it feels like it, but it wasn't)

[jcolman]

You do have some really nice shots but a couple of them (in the blue shirt) are not flattering poses. Especially #4 where she's leaning forward. Her shoulders are hunched over and she does look a bit overweight.

I wouldn't worry too much about the girl and chalk it up to experience. However, you may want to peruse a few topics on "posing" and learn how to pose the female figure for the most flattering angles.

[g-money]

Your photos look great. Tell her she is lucky you do not charge by the pound or it would be an expensive shoot..........ha-- just joking. I do not think she looks fat - I think she is a very cute girl.
Tell her mom that you posted her daughters photos on the internet and there are several older men who are interested. :)

Stathunter, You are not right ;) Let's have a drink sometime!

Ugh. This kind of thing drives me nuts. Just last week I did fall portraits for a family. The photos were beautiful but the woman hates them because, and I quote, "My hair needs to be cut and my husband looks bored." She was all upset because of things that were out of my control and asked for a free reshoot after she got her hair done.

I took a look at your photos and they are great. I wouldn't feel badly. We are all our own worst critic and obviously this young girl has some self-image problems. I wouldn't have offered to reshoot her because, from what I see, she looks amazing in all of them.

Please don't beat yourself up over it. This obviously goes much deeper than your session with her.

Sorry. Stuff like this is no fun.

Thanks, at the moment I offered a reshoot I really didn't know what to do to try to make it right. I was sort of stunned.


That is sad.. mostly because that girl is not even CLOSE to fat!!

It is kinda nice to hear that you actually feel bad for the girl and not angry that she didntlike your shoot. I mean, atleast you understand that its not you, its a teenage girl thing.

If you do get taken up on the re-shoot, let her look at the pictures after you take a few. I is going to be a process getting the RIGHT picture because we all know what teenage girls can be like.. just be patient. I was one of those teenage girls once.. Low self esteem and really frustrated.

My advice would be to pay REALLY close attention to the positions you put her in.. For instance, there is an image of her sitting on a wall leaning over. Its a beautifull image, but it is NOT flattering for the tummy.

Give her LOTS of direction on how to "hold it in" she will probably be less offended if you say "tilt your shoulders back and chest up" Dont actually SAY "suck it in"

Pay attention to the arms a lot. Make sure that her arms arent a big portion of the shot..

let her check herself in a mirror as often as she wants to..

These are just my opinions from a once teenage girl.. You CAN get her to love herself in the pcitures, but it HAS to be her way.

I think your pictures are BEAUTIFUL! I especially love the close ups.. But ya know.. its crappy.. Just be super sensitive the next time.. even with a different girl. Assume ALL of them are that self consious

Great advice lindsayanng. I think my handling of the camera is better than my handling of the subjects at times. And it take both for great photos. I agree with the wall picture and her being to slumped over could have improved on that and something I will have to watch in the future. Thanks again for the tips.

I think you handled it well. And I looked at the shots. They were very good. Which makes me realize that the girl's self image is very skewed (poor thing) and that probably she won't like anything of herself. Though you never know. But I do think you handled it well. Realize though, that it wasn't you that made her cry. (I know it feels like it, but it wasn't)

You have a point. I could possibly reshoot for a week and not get anything to please her. She was such a joy to work with and a very sweet young lady that it totally shocked me that she was not happy with the shots. Live and learn is about all I can do.

You do have some really nice shots but a couple of them (in the blue shirt) are not flattering poses. Especially #4 where she's leaning forward. Her shoulders are hunched over and she does look a bit overweight.

I wouldn't worry too much about the girl and chalk it up to experience. However, you may want to peruse a few topics on "posing" and learn how to pose the female figure for the most flattering angles.

Good advice and as stated earlier I am working on posing, but I didn't see any tips for a proper pose of a girl in window seal. ;) I know botched that one but I really liked the colors in it LOL

Thanks all, I guess there is no right or wrong way to handle this and just chalk it up to experience and move on. Appreciate the input!

Greg

[S-S]

...I know botched that one but I really liked the colors in it LOL...

here's a tip: when offering your shots to the client, think about it from their point of view: something vague like a colour dynamic or successful execution of a difficult lighting problem will probably not interest them in the slightest if the pose or expression is unflattering... if you know you messed something up, don't include that shot. nothing is stopping you from continuing to appreciate it privately - but commissioned shoots are less about art in a way and more about pleasing the customer & making them feel good about themselves

[big_apple_ken]

Honestly, as probably stated above, it probably won't make much of a difference if you do a reshoot with her. No clothes or haircut will truly make her feel beautiful if she has low self estimate or body/image problems. I know it sucks (I would feel the same way) but I think you handled it well.

[MilenaMN]

I think you have some really good pics there and I second that the girl has serious self image issues. I mean, yeah she is not a runway model bu neither are 99% of us. I agree the shape of the blue sweater is not too flattering, but she still looks fine to me. Offering to reshoot is the best thing you can do and if she accepts maybe just read up on posing larger people.

[lindsayanng]

One suggestion that i can give you from my experience from modeling is if the girl looks a little thicker in the waist area, you can do a lot of shots where she has an arm up on a wall and leaning.. i know that its clique, but it works, and it can make anyone look 10lbs thinner.

Just if you have her sitting and are doing a full body, try to keep one or BOTH arms up..

Like, that wall image would be nice if, instead, you had her sitting the same with her legs, but had her arms stretched out over her head like she was reaching upwards.. that would thin out the entire body..

the other thing that i ALWAYS harp on my husband for is the hair.. when he did some photographs of me, i kept telling him "Make sure my hair looks RIGHT!"

Just keep an eye out for flyaways, chunks that look out of place.. Throw a comb and a mirror at the model and they will fix it themselves, but YOU have to be the one to point it out..

i did some shoots for an AMAZING hair styleist photographer (his name is Babak in canada if you wanna google him) and he was great and keeping an eye on everything..

[LW Dail]

This just makes me sick!

She's an adorable girl, that skin is to die for, her eyes are arresting, and she's got two arms and two legs, and looks happy.

It's obvious where she got the 'impression' she's fat and not 'perfect,' and boy does that steam me!

You might point the girls' mother towards this site:
http://www.dove.us/#/CFRB/arti_cfrb.aspx[cp-documentid=7049726]/ or www.campaignforrealbeauty.com (http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com)

This "Campaign for Real Beauty" is to try and help women with these issues.

We, as photographers, know that beauty is in every face, smile, eye, or nuance. It's a shame the rest of the world can't see their beauty as we do.

[ccc_javier]

mmm, i don't think her problem with the pictures is related to the waist area nor arms... IMO her issue (I mean the reason she doesn't like them) is the round shape of her face, which in pic 1, 3 and 5 is notorious.

pictures are great, but I see her dislike, not to blame the photographer of course... I bet she doesn't "hate" much the full body pics...

peace

[g-money]

here's a tip: when offering your shots to the client, think about it from their point of view: something vague like a colour dynamic or successful execution of a difficult lighting problem will probably not interest them in the slightest if the pose or expression is unflattering... if you know you messed something up, don't include that shot. nothing is stopping you from continuing to appreciate it privately - but commissioned shoots are less about art in a way and more about pleasing the customer & making them feel good about themselves

I agree 100% and just had this discussion with a nother POTN member and very close friend the other day about cutting back on the number of pics offered. What scares me and this goes back to one of my first wedding. I almost threw a couple shots that I did not find great or even technically correct. She loved them and ordered several of them. So now I find myself asking shoulfd I throw out this shot or keep it. Maybe she likes something I don't. On the other hand one doesn't miss what what one never has or seen.

Honestly, as probably stated above, it probably won't make much of a difference if you do a reshoot with her. No clothes or haircut will truly make her feel beautiful if she has low self estimate or body/image problems. I know it sucks (I would feel the same way) but I think you handled it well.

Thanks and you are probably correct.

I think you have some really good pics there and I second that the girl has serious self image issues. I mean, yeah she is not a runway model bu neither are 99% of us. I agree the shape of the blue sweater is not too flattering, but she still looks fine to me. Offering to reshoot is the best thing you can do and if she accepts maybe just read up on posing larger people.

Thanks and will do that.


One suggestion that i can give you from my experience from modeling is if the girl looks a little thicker in the waist area, you can do a lot of shots where she has an arm up on a wall and leaning.. i know that its clique, but it works, and it can make anyone look 10lbs thinner.

Just if you have her sitting and are doing a full body, try to keep one or BOTH arms up..

Like, that wall image would be nice if, instead, you had her sitting the same with her legs, but had her arms stretched out over her head like she was reaching upwards.. that would thin out the entire body..

the other thing that i ALWAYS harp on my husband for is the hair.. when he did some photographs of me, i kept telling him "Make sure my hair looks RIGHT!"

Just keep an eye out for flyaways, chunks that look out of place.. Throw a comb and a mirror at the model and they will fix it themselves, but YOU have to be the one to point it out..

i did some shoots for an AMAZING hair styleist photographer (his name is Babak in canada if you wanna google him) and he was great and keeping an eye on everything..

More very good advice. Many Thanks!

This just makes me sick!

She's an adorable girl, that skin is to die for, her eyes are arresting, and she's got two arms and two legs, and looks happy.

It's obvious where she got the 'impression' she's fat and not 'perfect,' and boy does that steam me!

You might point the girls' mother towards this site:
http://www.dove.us/#/CFRB/arti_cfrb.aspx[cp-documentid=7049726]/ or www.campaignforrealbeauty.com (http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com)

This "Campaign for Real Beauty" is to try and help women with these issues.

We, as photographers, know that beauty is in every face, smile, eye, or nuance. It's a shame the rest of the world can't see their beauty as we do.

I agree what is sad is this young lady is a cheerleader and very well liked at school so I am told. No she is not petite but I never once while shooting thought OK I have a very large girl here I have to do something to hide a double chin etc like with a few girls I have shot. You are right I have changed so much since I fell in love with people photography a couple years ago in the way I look at people. Now instead of seeing the flaws in a person I look for their beauty and try to bring that out. Everyone no matter shape or size has beauty within them it is up to us a photographers to find it and capture it.

Greg

[FlyingPhotog]

This just makes me sick!

She's an adorable girl, that skin is to die for, her eyes are arresting, and she's got two arms and two legs, and looks happy.

It's obvious where she got the 'impression' she's fat and not 'perfect,' and boy does that steam me!

You might point the girls' mother towards this site:
http://www.dove.us/#/CFRB/arti_cfrb.aspx[cp-documentid=7049726]/ or www.campaignforrealbeauty.com (http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com)

This "Campaign for Real Beauty" is to try and help women with these issues.

We, as photographers, know that beauty is in every face, smile, eye, or nuance. It's a shame the rest of the world can't see their beauty as we do.

Your intentions are honorable but the OP should absolutely NOT get involved to this degree...

[lindsayanng]

If you want some more pointers from a model's perspective, let me know.. Or just read up a lot of body positioning..

The #1 thing is pay attention to the "spots"
arms, legs/thighs, chin, stomach, hair

I have a HUGE issue with my chin/neck. I am a rather thin person, but i have a VERY small chin. If i dont have my head just right in every shot, i look SCAREY.. There are few head shots of me that are good if the photog. doesnt remind me to hold my chin out and head up a little..

You just need to check those things before snapping..

This is the guy who shot me - AMAZING! (http://www.babak.ca/)

These are my shots from him (http://www.salonchiala.com/photogallery/naha2007.html) - i'm orange hair, black outfit, red lipstick.. and im also the last one on that page.. different outfit and hair..

Notice my chin is UP!

[eddarr]

If you want some more pointers from a model's perspective, let me know.. Or just read up a lot of body positioning..

The #1 thing is pay attention to the "spots"
arms, legs/thighs, chin, stomach, hair

I have a HUGE issue with my chin/neck. I am a rather thin person, but i have a VERY small chin. If i dont have my head just right in every shot, i look SCAREY.. There are few head shots of me that are good if the photog. doesnt remind me to hold my chin out and head up a little..

You just need to check those things before snapping..

This is the guy who shot me - AMAZING! (http://www.babak.ca/)

These are my shots from him (http://www.salonchiala.com/photogallery/naha2007.html) - i'm orange hair, black outfit, red lipstick.. and im also the last one on that page.. different outfit and hair..

Notice my chin is UP!

Ok great. But where exactly is the reality in that series. The complete lack of reality in what everyone sees and their inability to distinguish between reality and lala land is the problem. People need to learn how to get over themselves. Grow a little humility and stop trying to be something they are not.

I hope the op got his money up front.

And by the way. The girl is stunning, the pictures are very well done and tell her I said so.

[lindsayanng]

The reality is, and even the OP agreed, is that he might be able to work a little on his positioning. I agree withthat statement.. And LOTS of photographers (i know this because i DID some modeling) are looking and the WHOLE shoot and forget about the subtleties in the person.. The OP mentioned this too..

if you are doing fashion, then yea, the WHOLE shoot is VERY important.. but portraits like that, the ONLY goal is to make the person look as good as possible. They arent technical people, so they are only going to look at first the face/hair, then the body, THEN the surroundings..

I wouldnt be commenting on humanity unless you were at one point a teenage girl.. ESPECIALLY now.

[milorad]

I'm not very photogenic, so I spend time BEHIND a camera.

Sell her one of your old ones.

[pyterps]

G-Money

I hope you don't mind, I took one of your images into Photoshop did a little dodge and burn, liquify and a little skin smoothing.

Not sure what you are getting but edit a couple of the images and let her see what can be done but this kind of editing would be a little extra.

Dave

[adblink]

my girlfriend is the EXACT same way. She has put one some weight since she was in highschool, but now she thinks she is just HUGE (she is actually far from it) but its a pain in the ass because I hardly have any photos of her.

We made an agreement, I can take as many photos of her as i want, but she can tell me to perm. delete any image she doesn't like. (lets just say I don't walk away with too many keepers that meet her standards!)

[milorad]

self-image issues are indeed a source of pain for a lot of people - myself included... thing is though, when you book a shoot, who do you think you're going to get photos of?

obviously if you hate how you look, and you're expecting photos of yourself, then you need to rethink your reasoning.

It's a camera, not a magic wand... and if you're paying for photos of yourself, then somewhere along the lines you must have decided you actually want to see yourself in them.

[valentinephoto]

I think you handled the situation well, and are very generous to even suggest a re-shoot based on the fact that the girl felt she was fat and ugly. Self esteem is not something you can get from a picture and even if she was posed "perfectly", she probably will still find something she hates about the pictures. It's called being a teenage girl, and that's ashame because she is a beautiful - not even close to fat - girl!

One thing you may want to do in the future is put in your contract a line about re-shoots. I have something to the effect of "Re-shoots are scheduled at the sole discretion of the photographer, but both client and photographer can request a re-shoot. Re-shoot's will not be scheduled based on the client's reaction to their facial expression or posing".

Sure, I pose my clients in flattering ways, so that is almost never an issue when it comes to posing (although I work with models too and I like to let them do their own thing for most of the shoot, since that is their job), but if a client doesn't like their teeth and they decide to smile with their teeth showing, I'm not going to re-shoot those pictures because their teeth are showing and they hate it. I don't automatically assume that people hate their own teeth, because many clients are perfectly happy with themselves and their imperfections. I'm not a mind reader, and as someone else pointed out, the camera is not a magic wand.

[breal101]

I think you did a great job, don't be down on yourself, not your fault at all. Pyterps suggestion is a good one in my opinion, the liquify tool can work wonders.

[plattepro]

Just another vote for GREAT pictures, crazy kid - don't reshoot she will just hate them again. Kind of weird that the MOM said "she has a little weight problem" or whatever, she's not helping that self esteem and now she tried to make YOU cry too. Mean Mom. :)

[jdilldesigns]

I edited my comment cause it was not to kind, just I'm stright forward but this not the photographer fault, he did his job correctly, either way, they should still pay.

End of the day people gotta learn to except them selfs or do something to change it.

[S-S]

Sorry to say mom.. your daughter needs to hit the weight room or lay off those twinkles.

if i was going to make unkind comments like this i might be sure and remove my company name/url from my signature first... where POTN is concerned, if posters are less than professional, google is not your friend :rolleyes:

[weka2000]

You didnt make her cry at all. People need to accept themselves the way they are or make the correct changes.

Even some of the models I have shoot seem to see themselves bigger that what they are.


The photos are great. You did a good job.

jdilldesigns ......... im sure there is a diplomatic way to say the same thing but dont ask me :)

[g-money]

Thanks all for the input!

@pyterps... I usually cringe when other go to editing photos as I have seen some that lets say should never have been posted. Then I seen the pic you had chosen which in my opinion was one of my favorites of the shoot even with the arm protruding from the right side and wondered what the heck is wrong with this one? I kept looking and really couldn't see a difference until I pulled both photos side by side. I like it, very subtle changes but ones that do compliment her. Nice job Dave

@valentinephoto...Good suggestion. I am not sure my contract has such a clause in it for reshoots. Somthing I should consider. Thanks for pointing that out!

Several things I have learnt from this post is I need to work on posing. Yes I got what I thought were some pretty good shots of a lovely young lady. But with a little extra thought and careful attention to detail could have made several more so much better.

@lindsayanng...You are beautiful. I would love the opportunity to work with an experienced model such as yourself as I am sure I could learn quite a lot on posing.

Most importantly I have discovered how tuff it must be for some young ladys to feel good about themselves if they are larger than a size 1. Self esteem at that age I am sure is fragile. Someone made a comment about the mom and her comment. The mother is what I would call a very small and petite lady, She said her husband is a big man and that is where her daughter gets it from. So some issues could be coming from being built differnet than her mom. Notice I said built differnet as I still do not see this girl as big,fat or very much overweight. She just has a large frame and not the small petite girl we see on TV or in ads. Beautiful none the less to me and I was proud of the images I got of her. Hopefully one day she will see the beautiful young lady she is.

Greg

[MDteX]

Your photos look great. Tell her she is lucky you do not charge by the pound or it would be an expensive shoot..........ha-- just joking. I do not think she looks fat - I think she is a very cute girl.
Tell her mom that you posted her daughters photos on the internet and there are several older men who are interested. :)


I know I shouldn't but....ROTFLMFAO!!! :lol:

The pics are great!

[airfrogusmc]

Hey all, I couple weeks back I did a Senior shoot for a lovely young lady. She and her mother and I went out and shot for the better part of an hour and half. I thought I had gotten what was a nice assortment of pictures for her to choose from. I few I posted in this thread http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=577594

Her mother had told me she needed one 5x7 pretty quick. So I called her after giving her a couple days to view the pics and spoke with the mom. Well, needless to say I was heart broke when her mother told me her daughter cried for nearly an hour after she seen them and doesn't want to see them again. She said she thinks she looks fat and horrible in them. That her hair is a wreck.

Wow, I really didn't know what to say. They mom said it's not you it's her. She has a small weight problem and for some reason see herself as very fat in the these photos. Mom thinks it was the shirt (blue one) that looks bad. I have to agree that the shirt was not the most flattering for her the way it hung.

Anyway, I was at a loss. I offered to do a reshoot with her and let her choose a different shirt this time, but unsure if she will take me up on it. Anything else I could have done. Anyone else dealt with a situation like this? I feel really bad that I hurt this young ladies feelings.

Thanks
Greg

Welcome to the world of professional photography. No matter how good of a job you do(technically and esthetically) and how much you take care of your end theres always the intangibles like the clients own self image problems. Sorry to hear that. When you work allot with art directors and designers that opens up an entirely different set of problems.

My advise is try and not to let your own pride and emotions get involved in the situation. You did a great job and its her own self image shes upset about not your photographs. She wouldn't like the way she looked even if Avedon or Skrebneski would have shot her.

Shes a lovely young lady and you made her look GREAT. Its a problem with our society and the need to be thin. Marilyn would be considered obese by todays standards which in my opinion I would rather Monroe than Flockhart but thats not the way these young girls see it.

[stathunter]

You could always put together a slide show of her photos along with this song:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NF5XU-k2Vk

[sandro9mm]

cool shots
she is cute
its all in her head...

[john123]

Might want to ask her to show you photos of herself that were taken before that she likes and maybe it will give you a clue.
I think you did a great job .

[crenda]

First off, your photos are great, so this is not on you.
Your offer for a re-shoot is more than fair and honestly she's at an age where she's very sensitive so there may be no pleasing her.

Sure, she's not rail thin, but your work is good and she is far from "fat" and it's not like your photos make her look extra big or anything.

[convergent]

I think your photos are great, and she's a beautiful girl, but I also think there are some things you could do to make her look thinner in some of the images. I am certainly not an expert in this type of thing and your work with her is better than anything that I would be able to do, but... there are a few things I noticed. In a couple of the images, she is really slouching and that is not usually thinning... have her sit up and arch her back more to "suck it in" as someone else mentioned. There are also techniques with high key or low key lighting that can thin the face out a bit too. I think that what you did here would be great for 95% of senior girls, but that few that are over-concerned about their look might require special consideration... of course you had no way to know this going into it.

There was one too that made her chest look overly large... not sure if that was the angle of the picture and focal length... it was one that you had cropped pretty tight and she had on the green shirt.

[laurenfitz]

They mom said it's not you it's her. She has a small weight problem and for some reason see herself as very fat in the these photos. Mom thinks it was the shirt (blue one) that looks bad. I have to agree that the shirt was not the most flattering for her the way it hung.

First of all, the girl does not appear to have a weight problem. She looks normal and healthy and the fact that her own mother would say that the child has a weight problem bothers me (and maybe explains part of where the girl gets the idea she is fat.)

I had two aunts die of anorexia and, as the mother of a young daughter, I'm disturbed by what kids these day consider "fat."

Sorry you went through this. I am finding that, even the men I photograph for family portraits are complaining about how they look in pictures. Ugh. That's why I prefer taking photos of young children...you aren't likely to get as many complaints about the resulting photograph.

[Deckham]

Thank all the G&N 'photographers' with their plastic skins and PS-chopped figures, along with those that fawn over them.

She looks beautiful, and I think you did a decent job. The fact that you included all photos without necessarily considering her size is a testament to who you are and how you think, and I applaud that.

That all said - it is always a good idea to speak for a while with the model, and find out what she really wants and how she thinks.

[g-money]

Thanks all for your thoughts and opinions.

For those that have complimented my work thank you that means a lot. For those that offered constructive critism and brought valuable critique and suggestions I should follow in the future. Thank You very much. This is how we learn. I never would guess to have picked up as many pointers in this post as I have. I know my work is getting better but far from perfect so I am always open to suggestions on how to improve and better handle situations like this as they come up. It is great having a group like POTN to share and exchange ideas.

Greg

[WillMass]

I feel really bad that I hurt this young ladies feelings.

Thanks
Greg

Greg,

Just saw this thread, and (as others have said) your photos are quite nice.

You didn't hurt her feelings. She hurt them. You bear no responsibility for her actions.

[weka2000]

Thank all the G&N 'photographers' with their plastic skins and PS-chopped figures, along with those that fawn over them.

Thats a VERY wide brush statement. You want someone to blame try the magazines woman buy, or hollywood.

"We" G&N photographers give our clients what they want, this does not mean its what we agree with.

g-money thats what the forum is all about......helping others and learning

[S.Horton]

Whatever is happening, she's doing it to herself.

It is sad to see such a pretty young lady with her life ahead of her feeling so bad for no good reason.

Your work was fine.

@all excellent tips; I do my first Sr. photos next Saturday. The subject says she's fat, but absolutely she is not.

[silvex]

Well...it is sad she thinks that way of herself. You did your job by taking great photos. It is what it is. Some girls think that the photos will turn them my magic into a super-model/centerfold. Not you fault dude. Tell her to move on. BTW make sure you got paid.

[MattMoore]

They look fine to me and it sounds like you did everything you could possibly do (i.e. reshoot).

Sounds like low self-esteem, not your fault or your problem (no matter if you do feel guilty, you gotta let things go when you can't change them).

[lindsayanng]

you will DEFINITELY have to come back and let us know if they let you do a re-shoot.

[RBTWIN2]

If you know anything about teenagers you would understand. I take pictures of my teenagers all the time and its hit and miss. The pictures I love they hate and vice versa. Teenagers are from Mars......

[jbrown7815]

You could always put together a slide show of her photos along with this song:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NF5XU-k2Vk
I laughed out loud...


TO OP:

Your shots were great, do what you feel is right though.

[Maureen Souza]

All I have to say is "Oh Brother!!!!!!!"

You did a terrific job with the photography. The girl has a problem so don't feel badly.

[twistedinsight]

greg, great work...i just wish her self esteem was as great as your photography skills and then there would not be a problem.

i'd try some higher angles, more not so mid-drift refealing poses, something that will make a teenager look at herself and love them...i think they are amazing. everything's pretty much been touched on here (and then some LOL) , but you know how us big guys are too...i always stick my chin out and bring my shoulders back when pics are being taken of me to reduce that double chin ;) sometimes we just have to put ourselves in their shoes. i think she's gorgeous!

great job man, don't let this get you down!

[g-money]

greg, great work...i just wish her self esteem was as great as your photography skills and then there would not be a problem.

i'd try some higher angles, more not so mid-drift refealing poses, something that will make a teenager look at herself and love them...i think they are amazing. everything's pretty much been touched on here (and then some LOL) , but you know how us big guys are too...i always stick my chin out and bring my shoulders back when pics are being taken of me to reduce that double chin ;) sometimes we just have to put ourselves in their shoes. i think she's gorgeous!

great job man, don't let this get you down!


Thanks all, Twisted, thanks man, I am surprised no one has mentioned she was slouching in that one photo. ;) I will never post another slouching pic on POTN :D Oh, and I wish I was small enough to fit in her shoes. Seriously thanks for all the suggestions very helpful. Now just to remember them in the middle of a shoot.

Oh and I will let you know if she does a reshoot and post the pics

Greg

[Wilt]

Nothing fundamentally wrong with any of those shots you took, but from the standpoint of the subject, you could have done some things to flatter her more in her own eyes. (To others around her, the photos might perfectly capture her and embody the mental image they have...but SHE is the who needs to be 'sold'!)

All the photos (except the first) were FULL FACIAL...which is not the way to flatter anyone who is not pencil thin! 3/4 profile and even full profile would help hide facial fullness much better!

All the photos (except for two of them) were lit with the full 'mask' of the face evenly lit. You should have used 'short' lighting, with the less-seen side of the face (from the lens' perspective) Highlighted and the more-seen side of the face lit with Fill.

You could have posed her better...having a full-bosomed subject having that part of her in a pose which enlarges or does not de-accentuate (photos 2 and 4), is not what many want (the A or the B cup might want to appear larger, but not the larger girls!)

Body pose...turn her body at an angle to the lens, employ props that help her to hide behind! Turn her hand on EDGE (shot 3), don't show her knuckles (shot 2)!!!

Camera elevation can also help...up high shooting somewhat downward, with a wider lens will take advantage of the perspective making receding features (her body) appear smaller. And her having to look upward a bit would help with minimizing under-chin fullness!

The dark colors help to camouflage ample bulk, and the three shots with the black top make her seem to be smaller. With proper facial lighting, and turning her away from full-face, you can make her seem thinner.

[lindsayanng]

Nothing fundamentally wrong with any of those shots you took, but from the standpoint of the subject, you could have done some things to flatter her more in her own eyes. (To others around her, the photos might perfectly capture her and embody the mental image they have...but SHE is the who needs to be 'sold'!)

All the photos (except the first) were FULL FACIAL...which is not the way to flatter anyone who is not pencil thin! 3/4 profile and even full profile would help hide facial fullness much better!

All the photos (except for two of them) were lit with the full 'mask' of the face evenly lit. You should have used 'short' lighting, with the less-seen side of the face (from the lens' perspective) Highlighted and the more-seen side of the face lit with Fill.

You could have posed her better...having a full-bosomed subject having that part of her in a pose which enlarges or does not de-accentuate (photos 2 and 4), is not what many want (the A or the B cup might want to appear larger, but not the larger girls!)

Body pose...turn her body at an angle to the lens, employ props that help her to hide behind! Turn her hand on EDGE (shot 3), don't show her knuckles (shot 2)!!!

Camera elevation can also help...up high shooting somewhat downward, with a wider lens will take advantage of the perspective making receding features (her body) appear smaller. And her having to look upward a bit would help with minimizing under-chin fullness!

The dark colors help to camouflage ample bulk, and the three shots with the black top make her seem to be smaller. With proper facial lighting, and turning her away from full-face, you can make her seem thinner.

this is all GREAT advice.. anyone shooting a woman (small or large) should take this

[g-money]

Nothing fundamentally wrong with any of those shots you took, but from the standpoint of the subject, you could have done some things to flatter her more in her own eyes. (To others around her, the photos might perfectly capture her and embody the mental image they have...but SHE is the who needs to be 'sold'!)

All the photos (except the first) were FULL FACIAL...which is not the way to flatter anyone who is not pencil thin! 3/4 profile and even full profile would help hide facial fullness much better!

All the photos (except for two of them) were lit with the full 'mask' of the face evenly lit. You should have used 'short' lighting, with the less-seen side of the face (from the lens' perspective) Highlighted and the more-seen side of the face lit with Fill.

You could have posed her better...having a full-bosomed subject having that part of her in a pose which enlarges or does not de-accentuate (photos 2 and 4), is not what many want (the A or the B cup might want to appear larger, but not the larger girls!)

Body pose...turn her body at an angle to the lens, employ props that help her to hide behind! Turn her hand on EDGE (shot 3), don't show her knuckles (shot 2)!!!

Camera elevation can also help...up high shooting somewhat downward, with a wider lens will take advantage of the perspective making receding features (her body) appear smaller. And her having to look upward a bit would help with minimizing under-chin fullness!

The dark colors help to camouflage ample bulk, and the three shots with the black top make her seem to be smaller. With proper facial lighting, and turning her away from full-face, you can make her seem thinner.

Wilt, This is wonderful advice. Should be required reading for those who are new or trying to take their portrait photography to a new level. Thanks so much. I actually should and do know much of this, but sometimes I need to be beat over the head with it before it sticks. ;)

One insight that you lost me on but I am very interested in is the positioning of the hands. I struggle with that sometimes making them look natural etc. I don't quite follow what you mean by on edge in that pic and in #2 she just had her hands out in front of her in the grass. I mean I could clone a little grass over then to make them go away but I suspect you mean doing something differnet with them. Can you clear this up or link to an example.

Many many thanks

Greg

[Wilt]

One insight that you lost me on but I am very interested in is the positioning of the hands. I struggle with that sometimes making them look natural etc. I don't quite follow what you mean by on edge in that pic and in #2 she just had her hands out in front of her in the grass. I mean I could clone a little grass over then to make them go away but I suspect you mean doing something differnet with them. Can you clear this up or link to an example.

Oops, I didn't start counting at the first photo, when I referred to hand positions!


Your photo #5 was the RIGHT way to show hands, particularly for a woman.

Your photo #4, #7 and #8 was the WRONG way to show a woman's hands...few women have attractive hands (those that do are often professional hand models!)

Posing and lighting and shooting elevation is the difference between a 'portraitist' and a mere 'photographer' ! :)

[g-money]

Ahhh, That clears it up. I knew from your first posting I was not following the hands comment LOL Thanks wilt

Greg

[pyterps]

Greg

Thanks for the comments and from what I have been taught it is better to be subtle and make the changes as natural as possible.

I think you did a great job with the shoot and sometimes it does not matter what you do they will not be happy.

Just tell her to wait 5 years and she will love it. A great line used by Monte Zucker a lot and it worked.

Dave

Thanks all for the input!

@pyterps... I usually cringe when other go to editing photos as I have seen some that lets say should never have been posted. Then I seen the pic you had chosen which in my opinion was one of my favorites of the shoot even with the arm protruding from the right side and wondered what the heck is wrong with this one? I kept looking and really couldn't see a difference until I pulled both photos side by side. I like it, very subtle changes but ones that do compliment her. Nice job Dave

@valentinephoto...Good suggestion. I am not sure my contract has such a clause in it for reshoots. Somthing I should consider. Thanks for pointing that out!

Several things I have learnt from this post is I need to work on posing. Yes I got what I thought were some pretty good shots of a lovely young lady. But with a little extra thought and careful attention to detail could have made several more so much better.

@lindsayanng...You are beautiful. I would love the opportunity to work with an experienced model such as yourself as I am sure I could learn quite a lot on posing.

Most importantly I have discovered how tuff it must be for some young ladys to feel good about themselves if they are larger than a size 1. Self esteem at that age I am sure is fragile. Someone made a comment about the mom and her comment. The mother is what I would call a very small and petite lady, She said her husband is a big man and that is where her daughter gets it from. So some issues could be coming from being built differnet than her mom. Notice I said built differnet as I still do not see this girl as big,fat or very much overweight. She just has a large frame and not the small petite girl we see on TV or in ads. Beautiful none the less to me and I was proud of the images I got of her. Hopefully one day she will see the beautiful young lady she is.

Greg

[weka2000]

Just tell her to wait 5 years and she will love it
A great line used by Monte Zucker a lot and it worked.


Aint that the truth :lol:

[embdaw]

Well, I for one think they look great. I think your poses are good and do not make her "look fat" at all!

This issue is actually one of my biggest fears...we as photographers try to make people look as flattering as possible and can fix most "imperfections" through posing and Photoshop (LOL), however, we can do nothing for self-esteem issues. To be honest, shame on the mother for even saying that to you....why make you feel bad about them?? That was not very nice!

[g-money]

Just tell her to wait 5 years and she will love it. A great line used by Monte Zucker a lot and it worked.
Dave

That's a great line and oh so true.

Well, I for one think they look great. I think your poses are good and do not make her "look fat" at all!

This issue is actually one of my biggest fears...we as photographers try to make people look as flattering as possible and can fix most "imperfections" through posing and Photoshop (LOL), however, we can do nothing for self-esteem issues. To be honest, shame on the mother for even saying that to you....why make you feel bad about them?? That was not very nice!

Thank you embdaw,

After a week no reshoot request and no print orders. I imagine I can chalk this one up to experience and move on to the next shoot.

Greg

[ninab]

She's crazy. I agree she doesn't look that great in 4 and 7, but most other ones she looks great, esp. 1 and 5; she needs to face it, this is what she looks like, she is not Miss Twiggy; I second that her skin and eyes are great. Your photos are perfectly fine.

The mom did say that it's the girl's issue, not the photos; you'd think at least she would buy a few? I can't believe this. Have you checked back with mom? She must want some!

[Vascilli]

If you know anything about teenagers you would understand. I take pictures of my teenagers all the time and its hit and miss. The pictures I love they hate and vice versa. Teenagers are from Mars......
Yeah.. I'm pretty weird. :lol:

[Crewzer]

You did great~! You actually made her look better than reality. Being a bigger person, I understand this. But I found photographing women, they never seem happy with their weight, hair, lipstick etc. Its an occupational hazzard. Keep up the good work and don't let this let you down!

[Mfotography]

Peoples personal issues are not your problem. People will not like your work all the time, you will not like your work all the time. No matter how you look at it your creating a peice of art which some will like and some will not.
Dont let peoples personal issues get in the way of your art and your buisness.

[funk1196]

Your photos look great. Tell her she is lucky you do not charge by the pound or it would be an expensive shoot..........ha-- just joking. I do not think she looks fat - I think she is a very cute girl.
Tell her mom that you posted her daughters photos on the internet and there are several older men who are interested. :)

hahahahhah..... oh my gosh.... my first true LOL on potn.


i can't stop laughing! help!