who's a MAC user here?

[hecster]

Right now i use my work laptop to do all my photo processing. I've been using windows since Windows3.1 and 95 and am not too thrilled about Vista so i'm thinking of trying something new. However, taking the leap to a Macbook is quite a jump in cost. I don't mind the OSX, and am actually looking forward to learning it.

So those that are Mac users and love it, i really could use a little nudging and convincing that this is the right move.

oh, and i am planning to use this for my main machine. i have a desktop at home but don't use it much anymore. I plan to use this for web development, graphic design, and, of course, PP. :D I'm not much of a pc gamer, so that's not a big issue for me. Screen size is a big factor for me, but $1000 premium does not seem like a good enough justification for the extra 2.1" of screen size. I'm waiting for the oct 14 unveiling of the updates to the macbook lineup before ultimately making my decision, so please feel free to comment on this thread all you want.

thanks!

[binderInteractveMedia]

I switched from windows about 5 years ago and I have never looked back. I use my MacBookPro for web design and development, graphic design, video editing and my photography stuff. I also have played some games on it and I thing they do a great job all around. What else would you like to know?

[hecster]

yeah, i have a few:
1. was it difficult going from left and right mouse clicking to just a single mouse button? i find that a bit disorienting. is a right click an apple-click?

2. what kinds of games have you been playing on it, and how does the graphics card hold up?

3. what kinds of initial learning curve am i looking forward to? I'm kinda leaning toward the MBP, but can't justify the price. can you help make sense of the pricing, and what practical trade-offs I will get by getting the mbp rather than just a regular macbook?

4. how long ago did you purchase your MBP?

5. what do you do when hardware upgrades come out?


My boss has a macBookAir, and while it's "neat", it's not an option for me. thanks!

[Moppie]

I'm not a Mac owner, but I am a sometimes Mac user:

yeah, i have a few:
1. was it difficult going from left and right mouse clicking to just a single mouse button? i find that a bit disorienting. is a right click an apple-click?

2. what kinds of games have you been playing on it, and how does the graphics card hold up?

3. what kinds of initial learning curve am i looking forward to? I'm kinda leaning toward the MBP, but can't justify the price. can you help make sense of the pricing, and what practical trade-offs I will get by getting the mbp rather than just a regular macbook?

4. how long ago did you purchase your MBP?

5. what do you do when hardware upgrades come out?



1, You can use a 2, 3, or as many button mouse as you like, and this will give you right click functionality.

2, Lots of new games are being released in Mac versions, it is now easy to do with them running on intel hardware. COD4 and Spore for example are both avliable for Mac.
If there is a game you really want to play that is windows only, you buy a copy of Vista home and dual boot :)
Like most lap tops, the graphics card is not top of the range, but it will be more than sufficant for average gaming.

3, OS-X is different to windoes. Bill and Steve both do things differently and it is reflected in the different operating systems. Fortunatly the basic concepts are the same, and if your fast learner, and not afraid to try things by clicking on them you will pick up OS-X quite quickly.

4, Like any other laptop, you can only really upgrade the HDD and Ram, so when something new comes out, you have to replace it if you want to upgrade.

[ThomGascoigne]

I've been a MAC owner for a few years now. My family has owned over 40 macs, 23 of which are owned by my brother as he collects them.

My father has always used mac's for his work all laptops with external screens from dell etc
My mother who is also a photographer won't use anything but mac for her photography work.

I used to use PC for WCG level gaming but when I got seriously into digital photography it was %100 MAC. I'm on my MacBook (laptop) minimum of 4 hours a day. I have never turned it off and I haven't had a single problem in over 2 years.. Touch wood!

Get a Mac, and if you need alot of storage space think about investing in a Drobo

PC's Suck for photography! and most digital media art applications.

[Moppie]

PC's Suck for photography! and most digital media art applications.


That is off topic, inflammatory and simply false.

hecster is asking a serious question, and any further posts trying to turn this into a PC vs Mac thread, or any PC or Mac bashing, will be removed.

[pendulum15]

I far prefer mac, but dude, you are still using windows 95???

I use a mac and it is just simply better for me, it is simple, yet advanced, like the mark III it has craploads of features and stuff, but it is simple to use most of them

(and moppie, what is with calibration of my monkey, and what is the cheapest moniter calibration device that will do the job on two screens?) :)

[td67mustang]

New MBP here, LOVE IT and you will too. Multi- touch pad is to die for. P. S. DO IT!

[idyguy]

I've been using Apple computers for at least 15 years and I've always been very satisfied with their computers and the software (for the most part) that runs on them.

I currently have a G5 Dual and a Mac PowerBook G4. The G5 is fully loaded with 2TB of storage and 16MB of RAM. I am a graphic designer by profession and use all the Adobe Suite products. I'd strongly recommend using the Adobe products for photography, web and graphic design. They all play very nicely together and run well on both Tiger and Leopard operating systems. I use the G4 PB when I take motorcycle trips. I enjoy taking photos during my trips and then downloading and reviewing them in the evenings after a day's ride.

As for the learning curve, I don't think you'll have much of a problem as a lot of software products are similar on both platforms. System-wise, having worked on both Macs and PCs (for business) I personally find the Mac a bit more straightforward and easier to work with. Also, the new Apple mouse has several buttons that are very programmable so hopefully you won't miss the left-right click functions of a PC. I think the "strangest" thing for me when I work on a PC is remembering that the Command (Open-Apple) key on a Mac is the same as the Alt key on a PC. I just have to keep reminding myself because I'm a keyboard command kind of guy.

I guess if I can make any purchasing recommendations I've always tried to look at a computer model and ask myself two questions: 1.) Can I afford it? 2.) How long do I think I can use the computer given the fact that software is constantly being upgraded and requiring more and more system requirements — disk space, CPU speed, RAM, etc. On average, I've had Macs for 5-7 years before upgrading.

I hope I've been helpful here.

[René Damkot]

I think the "strangest" thing for me when I work on a PC is remembering that the Command (Open-Apple) key on a Mac is the same as the Alt key on a PC. I just have to keep reminding myself because I'm a keyboard command kind of guy.

Cmd = Ctrl
Opt = Alt.

Apart from that, I agree. I can work with PS on windows, but I'm constantly talking to myself then, to "translate" the keyboard shortcuts :lol:

[thelightofsound]

Cmd = Ctrl
Opt = Alt.


and on top of that the cmd is in the place of the alt, so things are complicated even more. i find myself fumbling around with keyboard shortcuts a lot when i am using a pc (which i do about half the time).

[Woodja]

I've had an iBook, iMac, and MacbookPro's and I LOVE THEM ALL TO DEATH!

[idyguy]

Cmd = Ctrl
Opt = Alt.

Apart from that, I agree. I can work with PS on windows, but I'm constantly talking to myself then, to "translate" the keyboard shortcuts :lol:

See... I told you I could never remember the keys.:lol: Thanks for your correction.
-Chris

[Michael_Lambert]

I use a mac as well as pc.

I do have a custom made PC which i do alot of my work on, however i do also have a Imac which i use for my web work and video editing. I typically work in Lightroom and Photoshop so i dont really see a difference from working on my Mac or my PC all my files are stored on remote drives so i can access them either way from either platform.

[tupper]

I Have an iMac which i use for all my imaging, editing, browsing and video. Then i have a PC Laptop which i also have all the Camera software (DPP CS3 etc) loaded to back up just incase i need it when away from my desk.
The iMac is great, and the OSX is just so much superior (in my opinion, others will think otherwise, its a personal thing) to my PC.

[René Damkot]

i find myself fumbling around with keyboard shortcuts a lot when i am using a pc (which i do about half the time).
I find myself cursing a lot, after having hit the "windows" key for the umphteenth time in a row :rolleyes:

Then again, on my Powerbook, there's the Fn key to drive me up the wall...

[Michael_Lambert]

I find myself cursing a lot, after having hit the "windows" key for the umphteenth time in a row :rolleyes:

Then again, on my Powerbook, there's the Fn key to drive me up the wall...

I find that i hit my left side windows key all the time, one reason i downloaded these registry edits. I now have the left key disabled.. not more hitting hit when i am going for my ALT key :D

http://johnhaller.com/jh/useful_stuff/disable_windows_key/

[Halliday]

I was a only-PC user for the past several years. Last summer I got a great deal on loaded 24" iMac. The PC is now the family computer and all my photo editing is done on the iMac.

After using it for several months I feel that a Mac can have as many problems as a PC. I use a wireless network in my house and twice my Mac has "lost" my printer I have hooked up to the router. I have to scan the hd ever few weeks to get the permissions reset and get all the programs working again.

So my recent Mac experience has not been flawless and I think both OS systems have issues and can cause headaches.

I tried Umbuntu but couldn't figure out how to do get online.

[Vincent Vega]

I bought a Mac mini in January 2006 as a trial run to see if I liked OS X. The reason for choosing the mini was because if I didn't like it, I could sell it and not lose too much money. I found the change fairly easy to get to grips with, though I did use a PC alongside the Mac.

However, the PC saw less and less use over time, and I committed myself to the fruity side later that year by buying a well-loaded Mac Pro. I've got Bootcamp installed, so I can dual boot if I want to, and I also use VMware Fusion as well, which is excellent.

Earlier this year, I bought my very first laptop, a Macbook Air. The reason for getting this one over another model was due to the weight, as I wanted to take a laptop with me to Canada on vacation. The MBA performed admirably, but I wouldn't want to use it as my primary computer.

When hardware upgrades come out, I drool a little (not literally) and that's about it. Just because there's a new model of the Mac Pro (for example), doesn't mean that my older version is utterly useless. Just like with my camera - there's now a 50D, but my 30D is still a fantastic camera for me.

[hecster]

I far prefer mac, but dude, you are still using windows 95???

LOL. I mentioned that i have been using Windows since the dawn of windows 95. I don't think anything would run on 95 nowadays. hehe

As for the rest of the feedback, i really appreciate it. Being a keyboard shortcut animal as well, i can already see this as becoming my biggest frustration and biggest hurdle. I've trained myself to hit keyboard shortcuts without thinking and without looking, so this is gonna be like learning to walk again.


I guess I'll try to pay off one of my cards, and then buy myself a macbook or macbook pro as a reward. ;)

So now my dilemma is, should i get myself a MBP for xmas, or a 24-70 2.8L? :twisted: This hobby sure does get expensive quick!

[pendulum15]

LOL. I mentioned that i have been using Windows since the dawn of windows 95. I don't think anything would run on 95 nowadays. hehe

As for the rest of the feedback, i really appreciate it. Being a keyboard shortcut animal as well, i can already see this as becoming my biggest frustration and biggest hurdle. I've trained myself to hit keyboard shortcuts without thinking and without looking, so this is gonna be like learning to walk again.


I guess I'll try to pay off one of my cards, and then buy myself a macbook or macbook pro as a reward. ;)

So now my dilemma is, should i get myself a MBP for xmas, or a 24-70 2.8L? :twisted: This hobby sure does get expensive quick!

Oh, oops lol

but I would bet a 24-70 2.8L glass is forever, but that being said I kept my last MBP for 3 years.... so they last pretty long....
Oh wait, jsut saw you had a 24-105, why would you want a 24-70 as well :)
get a 70-200 2.8 IS :):)

[Tony-S]

After using it for several months I feel that a Mac can have as many problems as a PC. I use a wireless network in my house and twice my Mac has "lost" my printer I have hooked up to the router.

This usually occurs because the router is reassigning a new ip address to the printer. Can you give it a static ip address? That would resolve the problem.

I have to scan the hd ever few weeks to get the permissions reset and get all the programs working again.

You should not shut down your Mac. There are a number of nightly, weekly and monthly cron tasks that should keep the filesystem in good shape.

[pendulum15]

This usually occurs because the router is reassigning a new ip address to the printer. Can you give it a static ip address? That would resolve the problem.



You should not shut down your Mac. There are a number of nightly, weekly and monthly cron tasks that should keep the filesystem in good shape.

you can shut it down if you wan't, you just don't have to...

[Tony-S]

you can shut it down if you wan't, you just don't have to...

If you shut down your Mac daily, then those cron tasks will not run without intervention (e.g., Macaroni). You are risking filesystem compromises if those tasks do not run periodically.

[MaxxuM]

I use Mac's and PC's... these are the things I 'hate' about each.

PC Hate
1. I constantly have to clean up the OS (Registry, Defrag, turn off start up items...)
2. Too much to worry about (Firewall, AV, too many malicious sites prey on IE/Win)
3. Way too easy to break OS (friends and family always call me about probs).
4. Too complicated to diagnose problems sometimes (and I have 15+ years in Tech field).

Mac Hate
1. Not enough software out there.
2. Oddly, when I click on a program the program is selected first and not the 'target' within the program. Example, if I drag iTunes to second monitor and open another program then click back on iTunes on a certain song ... the song is not selected. I have to click twice basically to activate something. In Windows only one click is needed.
3. Weak networking tools... As an IT specialist I find Mac's harder to network on a enterprise network without having to do alot of study/trial-error. RADIUS + certificates + wireless = Headache.
4. Expensive.

Basically, I pick Mac for most situations except two, the enterprise and a gaming machine. That's a no brainer of course.

[hecster]

This has grown into an interesting thread. i'm learning a lot. i appreciate all the feedback. like MaxxuM says, Macs are expensive, so i really want to make sure i'm spending my money wisely.

Thanks again!

[MaxxuM]

This has grown into an interesting thread. i'm learning a lot. i appreciate all the feedback. like MaxxuM says, Macs are expensive, so i really want to make sure i'm spending my money wisely.

Thanks again!

Buy from Amazon w/ only 1Gb then buy 4Gb Kingston memory and you'll save around $350. If you want Aperture (just as good as LR IMO) also get it from Amazon and save $20. I have an Amazon Prime account so two day shipping was free (great deal with prices going up and up these days). NEVER buy directly from Apple. If you don't like Amazon go to Mac Mall, but their prices are about the same as Amazons. My MacBook Pro has served me very well and as an network tech with a ton of certs, college and 15+ years in the industry Apple has done a fine job that is not easily matches for less $. And don't let people tell you that Apples are over priced - there is about a 10% premium due to Apple Care, but the parts used in MacBook Pros are top of the line, stable Intel boards that if purchased on PCs cost exactly the same. But if you HAVE to have a PC laptop, I like HP and Dell - both are reasonable but top models will cost you just as much as a MacBook Pro + LR is $100 more so you'll probably spend more than if you go with Apple.

[jp4tt3n]

I have been using Macs since the Apple II in the early 80s. They can be more expensive than PCs to buy but I find that they last longer. My main machine is a MacBook but I still run OS10 and many of the latest applications on my G4 from 1999. How many PCs of that age can run Vista or XP?

[Lucy Brown]

I'm a Mac and I'll never go back! The only cons I see for a owning a Mac is

1. Epensive! Holy crap are they expensive compared to PC.
2. Games. If your a big gamer you wont be happy with a Mac.
3. Hacking. If your a hacker you probably wont be wanting a Mac.
4. If you like to build your own forget it. You wont want a Mac.

As far as techie things go the most joy I've ever gotten from a tech gadget was switching to a Mac from Pc.

[Tony-S]

The only cons I see for a owning a Mac is

1. Expensive! Holy crap are they expensive compared to PC.

They're not really much more expensive than Windows PCs built with the same components (e.g., Santa Rosa-based Penyrns, optical audio, etc.).

2. Games. If your a big gamer you wont be happy with a Mac.

You can always install Windows on an Intel-based Mac and have the best (and worst) of both worlds.

3. Hacking. If your a hacker you probably wont be wanting a Mac.

Umm, sure you can.

4. If you like to build your own forget it. You wont want a Mac.


I did precisely this. And it was actually quite easy.

[Lucy Brown]

You built your own Mac? How?

[Tony-S]

I just followed what this guy (http://www.macworld.com/article/133028/2008/04/building_mac_clone.html) did. I was planning to buy an iMac with the aluminum revision, but then Apple pulled a glossy-only display, which is a no-go for photo work, IMO. Got tired of waiting and did the build. It was amazingly easy - the parts literally just snap into place (other than a few screws).

[pendulum15]

I just followed what this guy (http://www.macworld.com/article/133028/2008/04/building_mac_clone.html) did. I was planning to buy an iMac with the aluminum revision, but then Apple pulled a glossy-only display, which is a no-go for photo work, IMO. Got tired of waiting and did the build. It was amazingly easy - the parts literally just snap into place (other than a few screws).

I would recommnend using the GA-EP35-DS3 series motherboard as it is reliable and is compatible with the EFI-X which will be real cool, no more patches and kexts :)

Building computers is also really really easy
takes 2 hours for the parts, and then setting it up used to take a lot longer, if the EFI-X lives up to the hype it will take 30min probably :)

I would recommend buildiing to anyone

[fireplug]

I use MAC for just about everything seeing how it runs well and I have very little problems. I'm sorry though, but PC's and gaming go better together like peanut butter and jelly. I have tried the "Well game on the Mac, switch it to the windows, its the same thing"...No...just, no it's not...Any gamer can tell the difference.

Other then that I have no use for my PC, just gaming. My mac though, it's pretty darn schweet! :D

[Billginthekeys]

I've had my mac pro for about 3 months now and love it. I of course have used macs a fair bit before getting my own, but it has taken no time at all to get used to it.

[collierportraits]

Wow. I've been on a MBPro for about a year and a half now and I wouldn't recommend building your own, but only because of my level of knowledge and also my experience with Apple. My logic board went down 1 month after warranty expired (as I didn't buy AppleCare for $379), so they charged me a one time 'fix' fee of $310. I paid it, they replaced my logic board and then I was covered by a 90 day repair warranty. Good thing, because my keyboard and trackpad quit working. Then something else. Long of the short is about a month later after replacing a few more parts, THEY REPLACED MY ENTIRE MACHINE WITH A NEW ONE!

Nothing in life is perfect (except my wife, of course! ;) ), and things break but I cannot say enough good things about my experience. So, if I had built my own machine, well, I'd be in a heap of trouble. But, Apple stands behind their products and so I was fine!

[JBP]

My PowerMac G4's power supply just died. After fighting that for a couple days I am ready to take the leap to a new mac. As I make this purchase can anyone give me some advice for configuration? What elements of the hardware are most important? Can I get away with a G5 or should I leap to a Mac Pro? Are multiple processors important? Lightroom and Photoshop are my primary applications. I have been told that the graphics card isn't that big of a deal because Lightroom and PS render from the processor vs. the graphics card. I have limited resources so any advice regarding how to get the most bang for my buck is appreciated. Thanks!

[Billginthekeys]

Can I get away with a G5 or should I leap to a Mac Pro?
Definitely get the mac pro.

[tripsis]

I have an iMac (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac?mco=MTE4MTQ) so my answers won't apply to you directly, but you'll get a general idea. I have, however, owned and used various Mac laptops, so hopefully my answers won't be too far off from your situation.

yeah, i have a few:
1. was it difficult going from left and right mouse clicking to just a single mouse button? i find that a bit disorienting. is a right click an apple-click?
The mouse you get from Macs actually does have left and right click. Click the left side of the mouse for left click, and the right side of the mouse for right click. They're just not separated. But you can always buy a new mouse that has the separated right and left click (I did).

2. what kinds of games have you been playing on it, and how does the graphics card hold up?
I have "BootCamp" on my Mac, which allows me to restart my computer as a PC. So I can still have all the benefits of a Windows computer on my Mac. I can play games and use programs that only work for Windows and still own a Mac, which excels in other areas.

I currently play Lord of the Rings Online on my Mac and haven't experienced any problems. In the game there are several graphics settings.. I can play on "Medium" with no lag (works fine when "raiding" with 30+ other people running around with me), on "High" with a bit of occasional lag, and "Ultra High" with a medium amount of lag..

-----

I have used Macs my entire life and absolutely love them. I use PCs at school and have used Windows through BootCamp at home (as described above) and definitely favor Macs. For the kinds of things that you mentioned that you like to do, I don't see any real downsides to you owning a Mac. PCs may be better for some people who are extreme gamers, prefer more computer customization, etc., but for general use, Macs are really fantastic. They are very user-friendly and easy to adapt to. If you go into it thinking, "God this is going to be so difficult, Macs suck, Windows are so much better," then yes, it will be difficult for you to adapt.. but that works both ways. If you go in with a clear mind and a positive attitude, it won't be too difficult at all. Learning the different keyboard commands and different set ups in applications can be difficult at first, but after using your new computer for a few days, it won't seem too bad at all.

[OdiN1701]

Wow. I've been on a MBPro for about a year and a half now and I wouldn't recommend building your own, but only because of my level of knowledge and also my experience with Apple. My logic board went down 1 month after warranty expired (as I didn't buy AppleCare for $379), so they charged me a one time 'fix' fee of $310. I paid it, they replaced my logic board and then I was covered by a 90 day repair warranty. Good thing, because my keyboard and trackpad quit working. Then something else. Long of the short is about a month later after replacing a few more parts, THEY REPLACED MY ENTIRE MACHINE WITH A NEW ONE!

Nothing in life is perfect (except my wife, of course! ;) ), and things break but I cannot say enough good things about my experience. So, if I had built my own machine, well, I'd be in a heap of trouble. But, Apple stands behind their products and so I was fine!

If you had a custom-built PC, that "logic board" which I'm assuming would be a motherboard, would have its own warranty. It would have costed $0 to be replaced. It might have costed you whatever money you used to ship the board back to the manufacturer. If you had someone else do the labor, maybe $100 total for everything. The warranty on individual quality PC components are usually from 3 years to lifetime, without any additional warranty purchase required. A 1 year on anything electronics I wouldn't stand for. Especially on a laptop.

This is assuming a desktop as there really aren't any laptops that you can build yourself.

So just saying - you wouldn't be in a heap of trouble and probably been in better shape honestly.

Even less cost if you have the skills to build a system yourself - but without, at least you don't have to purchase a new board after a year if you didn't buy an extended warranty.

[tripsis]

Wow. I've been on a MBPro for about a year and a half now and I wouldn't recommend building your own, but only because of my level of knowledge and also my experience with Apple. My logic board went down 1 month after warranty expired (as I didn't buy AppleCare for $379), so they charged me a one time 'fix' fee of $310. I paid it, they replaced my logic board and then I was covered by a 90 day repair warranty. Good thing, because my keyboard and trackpad quit working. Then something else. Long of the short is about a month later after replacing a few more parts, THEY REPLACED MY ENTIRE MACHINE WITH A NEW ONE!

Nothing in life is perfect (except my wife, of course! ;) ), and things break but I cannot say enough good things about my experience. So, if I had built my own machine, well, I'd be in a heap of trouble. But, Apple stands behind their products and so I was fine!
I agree with this statement. I have had nothing but incredible experiences with Apple being very accommodating. This isn't computer related, but when my sister got an iPhone, it died/broke twice and they replaced it with a free brand new one both times.

Their staff at the store is always very friendly and helpful. If you ever have problems with your computer once you get it, don't hesitate to take it into the store and I guarantee that they will help you out in the best way that they can.

[bandic00t]

If you're that concerned about making the switch, buy a Mac and a program that will allow you to dual boot Windows (VMware Fusion, Boot Camp). For guys like you, it's the best of both worlds; you get an Apple yet you can still hop into Windows if you ever feel the urge.

[Tony-S]

My PowerMac G4's power supply just died. After fighting that for a couple days I am ready to take the leap to a new mac. As I make this purchase can anyone give me some advice for configuration?

What's your budget and what software do you use? Do you need a display, too? If you have any OS8/9 apps, the will not run on Intel-based Macs. Only OS X apps can be run (using OS X's Rosetta).

What elements of the hardware are most important? Can I get away with a G5 or should I leap to a Mac Pro? Are multiple processors important?

Multiple processors are not necessary, but all Macs now come with dual core processors or quad-core on the Mac Pro. I'd avoid a G5 since Apple is abandoning OS support for them in 10.6 "Snow Leopard".

Lightroom and Photoshop are my primary applications. I have been told that the graphics card isn't that big of a deal because Lightroom and PS render from the processor vs. the graphics card.

That's true for Lightroom (for now) and was true for PS until CS4. There are some routines that utilize the gpu. Without it you can still use CSU, but it won't be as fast at those functions. Also, Lightroom 2 is 64-bit under Leopard.

I have limited resources so any advice regarding how to get the most bang for my buck is appreciated. Thanks!

List your essential software needs and we can probably steer you in the right direction.

[JBP]

Thanks Tony.
In response, I use CS2. Mostly Photoshop, but as a graphic designer I use Illustrator and InDesign as well. I am a beginning professional photog so lately 80% of my time is spent in Lightroom2.
I currently run Jaguar on my G4.
I don't need a display.
I can figure out the hard drive part and I can upgrade my own RAM.
I guess I'm wondering if I need One 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon processors, or two?
Also, will I be ok with the standard Radeon graphics card? (ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT 256MB)

[OdiN1701]

You don't even need a single quad-core Xeon. Those are server oriented CPU's. A normal desktop Quad Core would be all you would need, really.

The only thing Xeon really gets you is the privilage of spending more money on things like ECC RAM, etc.

I don't see the need for dual quad-core processors for what you do.

Now if you were doing a ton of video editing - okay.

[Tony-S]

Thanks Tony.
In response, I use CS2.

CS2 runs under Rosetta, so you will see a performance hit with an Intel-based Mac. If you plan to stick with CS2, then perhaps a G5 might be better for you. The dual processor, dual-core (i.e., four cores) are still really good machines.

... lately 80% of my time is spent in Lightroom2.

In this case, an Intel would be in order. Decisions, decisions...

I guess I'm wondering if I need One 2.8GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon processors, or two?

With Snow Leopard 10.6 (Intel Macs only) multiprocessor support and leveraging of the gpu will become inherent to OS X. While LR will benefit from it, it's unlikely that PSCS2 will. PSCS4, however, will likely see a substantial performance boost, if you go that route. If you can swing a dual processor MP, then that would be better performance. But it's difficult to tell if you would make your work flow much faster. If you rely on a lot of processor-intensive actions, it might be. Only you can figure that one out. Personally, I'd go for the single processor with CS4 than a dual processor with CS2.

Also, will I be ok with the standard Radeon graphics card? (ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT 256MB)

For photo work, that's more than enough.

[gary88]

I've always had a PC, but about two months ago I bought a loaded 15" MacBook Pro and am kicking myself for not doing it earlier! I was always slightly annoyed with Mac users gloating about how their system is superior and "just works", and well now I can see exactly why :)

[JBP]

Thanks Tony.
I actually wimped out and bought another G4 that I'm going to scavenge for parts. Hopefully it will get me down the road another 6 months or so.
When I arrive at the time to buy new, I have also been kicking around the idea of an imac or MacBook Pro and using my existing screen as the primary. What are your thoughts on that? It would certainly save me some money.

[form]

If I didn't start off as a mac user I probably wouldn't be one now. I think the premium for mac systems is extreme and absurd, especially with any model under their very best. The top of the line systems are the only offerings Apple Computer has that are competitive with PCs in value and performance.

For instance, the best mac now is probably as good or better than a PC with comparable features for a similar price. However, if you jump down a few notches in performance, the cost of a PC makes a huge drop, while the cost of a similarly performing mac stays way above the price it should command. Older mac systems that pale in comparison to a similar PC cost hundreds more, such as buying a single processor intel core 2 duo PC system for about $300, or buying a similar mac with the same single intel core 2 duo processor and same hardware configuration for about $800-$1000.

Mac doesn't make sense unless you buy the top of the line. And then you pay a price premium to get the best of the best, which, as far as I'm concerned, is a huge waste of money. Overall, I think mac just doesn't make sense.

What do I own? Well I started with a performa 6320, then bought a 400mhz G3 yosemite for about $3500 when it was brand new...then after that I learned, no more new macs. Next was a 533mhz G4 digital audio for about $220, and my current system is a dual 800mhz G4 with 1.5gb ram, 80gb HD, etc., purchased for $100. I can tell you that the a Dell latitude 510 model with 1.6ghz intel centrino system walks, almost runs, away from this mac in post processing in lightroom and CS2, and I will continue to use the laptop hooked to my old vga CRT monitor for most of my editing. I got the dual 800 G4 because I wanted better overall user interface performance, faster previewing of photos, and being able to view some videos (youtube, news) and flash websites, and it does significantly better than the 533 digital audio system did. The 533 just wasn't usable for many things.

If I wanted to spring for a custom single Intel Core 2 Duo PC, it would be about $300 for everything, and would perform about 5x as fast as this system. Why didn't I do that instead? Migration is a pain in the rear and all my apps are Mac.

I don't trust mac laptops either; several of them have had issues in the past, and though I don't keep track of them anymore I'm sure their newer models have their share of hardware failures. I haven't had any issues with dell laptops.

Usability? Mac probably offers a more user-friendly interface, but both OS X and Win XP are very usable and offer everything you need to have in a computer. I wouldn't buy one over the other based on user interface - migration excepted.

[form]

Interesting thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=591820

The desktop PC configuration for $500 on that page will perform significantly faster than the fastest available Macbook Pro and offer more expansion. Something to consider.

[OdiN1701]

Interesting thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=591820

The desktop PC configuration for $500 on that page will perform significantly faster than the fastest available Macbook Pro and offer more expansion. Something to consider.

The configuration that I posted does not have a hard drive, CD/DVD drive, or any software.

While I agree that PC's are cheaper for better performance and expandability - $500 is not going to do it. But it is a good start.

Also your claim about $300 Core 2 Duo system isn't true. You can't build a quality PC for $300. Even if you already own the software that you need.

[Billginthekeys]

Interesting thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=591820

The desktop PC configuration for $500 on that page will perform significantly faster than the fastest available Macbook Pro and offer more expansion. Something to consider.
Its pretty unfair to compare any desktop to any laptop. Of course you could easily build a much faster desktop for the cost of a laptop.

[MaxxuM]

Interesting thread:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=591820

The desktop PC configuration for $500 on that page will perform significantly faster than the fastest available Macbook Pro and offer more expansion. Something to consider.

Comparing a laptop to a desktop computer is like comparing a sub-compact against a truck.

As far as your other statements.... well, everyone has their personal preferences. I like to compare BMW sedan against a Ford sedan - they are both cars and both will do you and your family just fine, but the BMW (to me) is a better engineered car with better handling. Does that make the BMW the 'best' car, no, of course not. Does it make BMW a better car maker than Ford, I would argue yes.

Look, Apple prides itself on two factors, style and functionality. This is why just about every one of their competitors imitates them. Apple may have not been the first to do many of the things they do, but they did make them better.

And as for price, the only way Apple can lower price significantly is to either allow other companies to make Mac's or to start lowering their quality. They will do neither. Like many other companies around the world they will sell their products at a higher price point and at a level that exceeds those of cheaper vendors that will skimp on quality, packages and do not meet the highest standards.

[Tony-S]

If I didn't start off as a mac user I probably wouldn't be one now. I think the premium for mac systems is extreme and absurd, especially with any model under their very best. The top of the line systems are the only offerings Apple Computer has that are competitive with PCs in value and performance.

While I don't want another pi$$in' contest over this, it is crystal clear that PCs and Macs that are built with the same components are essentially the same price. Those "other" Macs are all built on Intel Santa Rosa or Montevina chipsets (and now migrating to NVidia chipsets) with Penryn processors. If you check the prices of Windows computers with such hardware (such as Sony's high-end Vaios) you'll see that they cost just about the same and have similar performance. Other than the Mac Pros, all Apple computers are built with contemporary notebook components, which are inherently more expensive than desktop components because they are engineered for lower power consumption, less heat and small size, all while maintaining performance. That's where the "Apple Tax" comes in.

Take the All-in-one market. The 2.6 gHz 20" iMac costs $1500. The 22" 2.1 gHz HP IQ506t (a direct competitor) also costs $1500. The HP has more features, but the iMac gives substantially better performance. Both have TN panels. For $300 more, you can get the 2.8 gHz iMac with a 24" H-IPS panel. All of these use low-powered T-series notebook cpus (HP T5xxx 2 mb cache, iMacs T8xxx or T9xxx both with 6 mb cache). More expensive, but generate less heat. On the other hand, the 20" Dell XPS One ships with an 2.3 gHz E-series desktop processor with a 4 mb cache for about $1300. Cheaper, but they use more electricity and generate more heat. The Macs all perform substantially better because of their speeds and caches (and probably OS).

No one says you cannot buy or build a better performing PC (or hackintosh, in my case) for less money using desktop components. But doing so will result in computers that require larger enclosures, use more energy, generate more heat (and thus require fans on all the time) and occupy more space. My Mac Mini and my office iMac are completely silent the great majority of the time. I cannot recall the last time my iMac's fan came on, and I've had it for two years now. My home hackintosh, which has one of the quietest enclosures available for PCs, always makes noise because its fans are on all the time. I'm perfectly fine with that because it is not all that distracting to me.

Let's keep this apples to apples, and not apples to oranges (pun intended).

[OdiN1701]

Tony -

I don't think that Apple desktops are built with notebook parts. Wouldn't make sense.

I don't think you could get those dual quad-core Xeon chips that their top end desktops use to fit on a laptop motherboard. I think they would also have to have fans as much as PC's do - Xeons do not run cool.


EDIT - I just checked the store...seems the only desktop available IS the Mac Pro...I thought they had a wider range available. I don't count the iMac as a true desktop. The downside to everything being built with notebook components is less upgrade options. Integration and all-in-one type systems are nice, but they are a pain to work on, and to update, you've gotta toss em. That's why I like a larger desktop system - I can just swap a few components for an update.

[form]

Okay, I think it's a waste of money and the OP would be just as well off with a similarly built dell or other laptop with similar features and a faster processor for less money. According to the dell website I could assemble a 2.8 ghz core 2 duo latitude for about $500 less than a comparable macbook pro with 2.53ghz processor on the apple website - consider maxxum's talk about rebates from amazon, etc., and it's still a significant price difference.

I believed in mac for a long time. I still think that their workflow is a bit smoother, but they do in fact have a significantly less attractive price/performance ratio. Desktop towers IMO are the strongest showing of this difference, and laptops also show some (but less) difference.

[Tony-S]

Andrew - my post was about the Macs other than the Mac Pros (as I noted); all other Macs are built with notebook chipsets and processors:

Mac Mini - Calistoga with Merom
iMac - Santa Rosa with Penryn
MacBook (white) - Santa Rosa with Penryn
MacBook/MacBook Pro/MacBook Air - Nvidia with Penryn

Other than the Mac Pros, all Apple computers are built with contemporary notebook components

[Tony-S]

According to the dell website I could assemble a 2.8 ghz core 2 duo latitude for about $500 less...

Which Latitude?

[form]

Which Latitude?

E6400

[mattograph]

1. was it difficult going from left and right mouse clicking to just a single mouse button? i find that a bit disorienting. is a right click an apple-click?

It can be a bit disorienting, but you can use two button mice with the macs. I have a two button bluetooth mouse that I sometimes use with mine.

2. what kinds of games have you been playing on it, and how does the graphics card hold up?

I don't game on the laptop. If I did, I'd never get anything done.

3. what kinds of initial learning curve am i looking forward to? I'm kinda leaning toward the MBP, but can't justify the price. can you help make sense of the pricing, and what practical trade-offs I will get by getting the mbp rather than just a regular macbook?

Macs are easy to learn to us -- and its very simple to get up and running. System work is the biggest challenge for me, have been bred on a PC.

Macs are more expensive. I have owned 4, with three still in use. My first macbook died at 37 months -- 1 month out of warranty. To me, Macs seem to stay "fresher" longer. My PCs for work use are dell laptops, and they tend to die much quicker, but they are cheaper.

I own the "blackbook" -- not the pro. They just discontinued mine, but I looked hard and fast at the differences. It all came down to the monitor for me -- and I figured I could live with a glossy. We have a 24" cinema at work that I can use for the color sensitive stuff, which is infrequent. Other than that, I haven't regretted my decision.

I have been happier with my macs longer, if that makes sense.

4. how long ago did you purchase your MBP?

Mine is 6 months old. My first one was purchased in 2004.

5. what do you do when hardware upgrades come out?

Same thing you do when a new camera body comes out. Try to decide whether to sell and trade up! The laptops are not very flexible platforms.

[Colorblinded]

Comparing a laptop to a desktop computer is like comparing a sub-compact against a truck.
Agreed, unfair comparison.

The comparison between Mac and PC desktop hardware is quite cloudy as well depending how much you want (and want to spend).

Still, as a part Mac/part Windows user I do find myself having to "translate" commands and shortcuts to Mac-ese from what I am used to in Windows or Linux.

If you're comfortable with it there's certainly no reason to steer free of it, but I have found that Apple's decisions for design and construction of their laptops do not match my wants and needs. As far as desktops are concerned, I prefer to build my own. I get far better performance for my dollar for what I'm looking for.

To your question about upgrades. With laptops there's not a whole lot you can do. You can add expansion cards to the PCMCIA/Cardbus or ExpressCard slots but they only do so much and can be cumbersome. RAM and hard drive upgrades are about the only thing you can do with most laptops (it can be easy to upgrade optical drives on some and is possible to upgrade GPUs on others). I buy all the laptop I think I'll want for two or three years and if I need a new one then, I just get a new one. The upgrades usually don't get me much because I've already gotten it pretty loaded when I purchased it new.

[Tony-S]

E6400

Built to as close as possible. Boldface is better.

14" panel that is FL backlit (vs. MBP 15.3" with LED backlit and autodimming)
Max output is 2048 x 1536 by VGA, 1920x1200 DVI/HDMI (MBP is dual-link DisplayPort to 2560x1600 - i.e., native 30" display)
256 mb vRAM (vs 512 mb in MBP and you don't lose it from your system RAM)
250 mb hard drive max option (320 for MBP)
Dell 9 cell battery ($99) is 45 watt-hour (MBP standard battery is 50 watt-hour)
Vista Ultimate (most similar to Leopard)
4 gb RAM for both
Dell plastic with mag alloy back (MBP unibody aluminum)
Memory bus 800 mHz (MBP 1066 mHz)
eSATA port, FW400 (MBP FW400 and FW800)
Analog audio (MBP optical audio to 7.1 surround)
1.2" thick (MBP 0.95" thick)
1.2 mpx video cam (MBP 2 mpx video cam)

Geekbench scores (larger is better):
Dell T9600 2.8 gHz = 3084
MBP T9500 2.53 gHz = 3304

$2642 minus their $441 "instant savings" (how does dell stay in business?) = $2201

MacBook Pro $2500

Real difference is $300. It's pretty clear which computer is better. Whether it's worth $300 more is up to the individual buying it.

[OdiN1701]

I configured a Dell Studio laptop.

15.4" LED backlit
2.53GHz
ATI Graphics (not sure on max output - 256MB...you don't really need 512. my desktop is 256 and runs a 30" and 20" monitor.)
320GB HD
4GB RAM
9 Cell 85 watt-hour battery
Vista Ultimate
Sound Blaster Audigy sound
2MP Webcam
2-year standard warranty (Apple's standard is only 1)

$1539

I don't know why you would pay more for the Latitude (other than the faster CPU options).

I've always bought Inspirons and they have been excellent.


Also did you add the Apple Care to your configured option? The Latitudes come with 3 year warranties standard. That adds another $350 to your MBP price.


I also just configured a Latitude E6500 with the 15" LED backlit screen:

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T9600 (2.80GHz, 6M L2 Cache, 1066MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate SP1, With media
3 Year Limited Warranty and 3 Year Mail-in Service
15.4” UltraSharp™ Wide WXGA+ (1440x900) LED Display-Brushed Metal Black
NVIDIA Quadro NVS 160M
4.0GB, DDR2-800 SDRAM, 2 DIMMS
Internal English Keyboard
Digital Microphone
250GB Hard Drive, 7200RPM with Free Fall Sensor
8X DVD+/-RW w/Roxio and Cyberlink Power DVD™
Dell Wireless™ 1397 802.11b/g Mini Card
6 Cell Battery

Price for that is $2047 (I got $2061 for the 14" model)

Oh the E6500 has display port too.

[MaxxuM]

I configured a Dell Studio laptop.

15.4" LED backlit
2.53GHz
ATI Graphics (not sure on max output - 256MB...you don't really need 512. my desktop is 256 and runs a 30" and 20" monitor.)
320GB HD
4GB RAM
9 Cell 85 watt-hour battery
Vista Ultimate
Sound Blaster Audigy sound
2MP Webcam
2-year standard warranty (Apple's standard is only 1)

$1539

I don't know why you would pay more for the Latitude (other than the faster CPU options).

I've always bought Inspirons and they have been excellent.


Also did you add the Apple Care to your configured option? The Latitudes come with 3 year warranties standard. That adds another $350 to your MBP price.


I also just configured a Latitude E6500 with the 15" LED backlit screen:

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T9600 (2.80GHz, 6M L2 Cache, 1066MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate SP1, With media
3 Year Limited Warranty and 3 Year Mail-in Service
15.4” UltraSharp™ Wide WXGA+ (1440x900) LED Display-Brushed Metal Black
NVIDIA Quadro NVS 160M
4.0GB, DDR2-800 SDRAM, 2 DIMMS
Internal English Keyboard
Digital Microphone
250GB Hard Drive, 7200RPM with Free Fall Sensor
8X DVD+/-RW w/Roxio and Cyberlink Power DVD™
Dell Wireless™ 1397 802.11b/g Mini Card
6 Cell Battery

Price for that is $2047 (I got $2061 for the 14" model)

Oh the E6500 has display port too.

But you forget Odin, they all come with Vista...:razz: That automatically adds $200-$1000 in frustration alone :D

[OdiN1701]

But you forget Odin, they all come with Vista...:razz: That automatically adds $200-$1000 in frustration alone :D

I could say the same about OS X from my perspective.

[form]

What do you need a videocam for? What do you need 512mb of vram for? Why would I want 19200000x12000000 resolution? Why do you need autodimming? What do I need the 320gb hd for instead of the 250gb? What if the 45watt-hour battery actually lasts longer on the dell than the 50watt-hour battery on the macbook pro? What do I need the extra audio function for? Is that 1066mhz bus going to make a significant difference in performance? I thought the bus nowadays is hardly the bottleneck it used to be back in the day of 133/167mhz bus speeds. What does geekbench test? Is it optimized for both operating systems and does it show performance running specific applications like photoshop and lightroom?

[MaxxuM]

I could say the same about OS X from my perspective.

Frustration 1,000,001... I'm having issues with a batch of Dell Precision T5400's that refuse to boot from the DVD drive. Every single one of them is having this issue. If I reboot 4-5 times sometimes it will catch and boot the Ghost CD... I don't have time to debug it today and find out if I'm doing something wrong.

Yes, I now Mac's are not perfect either - but I go through this every day with PCs and almost never hear from our Mac users.

[form]

A long time ago, I remember having an issue getting my mac tower to boot from an optical drive; it was related to the jumper settings and when properly set, the booting issue was resolved.

[MaxxuM]

What do you need a videocam for? What do you need 512mb of vram for? Why would I want 19200000x12000000 resolution? Why do you need autodimming? What do I need the 320gb hd for instead of the 250gb? What if the 45watt-hour battery actually lasts longer on the dell than the 50watt-hour battery on the macbook pro? What do I need the extra audio function for? Is that 1066mhz bus going to make a significant difference in performance? I thought the bus nowadays is hardly the bottleneck it used to be back in the day of 133/167mhz bus speeds. What does geekbench test? Is it optimized for both operating systems and does it show performance running specific applications like photoshop and lightroom?

You're making me laugh Form... Are you actually looking to invest or are you just here to tell us how we did fine in the horse & buggy days :D I'm just josh'en ya Form. It looks like you do just fine with what you have by the sounds of it so why buck current technology with us here?

And btw, you may not need all these bells and whistles, but many of them are critical to me :)

[OdiN1701]

What do you need a videocam for? What do you need 512mb of vram for? Why would I want 19200000x12000000 resolution? Why do you need autodimming? What do I need the 320gb hd for instead of the 250gb? What if the 45watt-hour battery actually lasts longer on the dell than the 50watt-hour battery on the macbook pro? What do I need the extra audio function for? Is that 1066mhz bus going to make a significant difference in performance? I thought the bus nowadays is hardly the bottleneck it used to be back in the day of 133/167mhz bus speeds. What does geekbench test? Is it optimized for both operating systems and does it show performance running specific applications like photoshop and lightroom?

I don't care about webcam. Some might.

You don't really need 512MB video RAM. Unless you're gaming. However - CS4 may take advantage depending on how it uses the GPU, but probably not.

Some people dock their notebooks and power external displays. I can't stand to use anything smaller than a 1600x1200 resolution anymore. 1900x1200 is just widescreen. My main monitor is 2560x1600.

You don't need autodimming - it's just a nice feature.

Trust me, you REALLY don't want to start arguing about PC vs. Mac battery life. Mac battery life is a lot better. But not because of the battery necessarily - just better battery performance in OSX for some reason (http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3435&p=13).

1066MHz memory bus vs. 800MHz will make some difference, but will not be much. In fact it isn't even 1066MHz if you want to get technical. The CPU probably is running on 266 quad pumped (1066MHz), while the memory is double the bus speed (533MHz) only becuase it's DDR. You could run the RAM at 1066MHz if you wanted, but that would really just end up being a 1:2 ratio of CPU:RAM. Not going to increase performance a huge amount. Best to keep them 1:1. This is why DDR800 is really all that's needed, even with 1333MHz FSB CPU's as at 1:1 the RAM is only at 666MHz DDR. It's confusing, I know.



But...you're coming off as bad as some Mac zealots do. I prefer PC's and I will argue that they are cheaper for equal performance, and that if a quality PC is purchased then you will have something just as stable and "just workish" as a Mac. But Mac's do have their advantages, and I'll give them credit where credit is due.

[Tony-S]

What do you need...

Just to reiterate what I wrote:

Whether it's worth $300 more is up to the individual buying it.

[OdiN1701]

Frustration 1,000,001... I'm having issues with a batch of Dell Precision T5400's that refuse to boot from the DVD drive. Every single one of them is having this issue. If I reboot 4-5 times sometimes it will catch and boot the Ghost CD... I don't have time to debug it today and find out if I'm doing something wrong.

Yes, I now Mac's are not perfect either - but I go through this every day with PCs and almost never hear from our Mac users.

Burned CD? Possible issue with the media not working well in that drive? Might try a fresh copy too - maybe a scratch or something?

Do they have a boot menu? Some of them you can press F12 or something, get a boot menu, and tell it where to boot from. Pick the DVD and see what happens. If it still doesn't boot from it or you get an error that it can't, then I'd suspect some media problem of some sort. Unlikely that all the drives are bad - I could see one or two going out if you had a bunch of them, but not all doing the same thing unless there was a firmware issue.

That's the only other suggestion is a firmware update for the drive if available.

[paddycook]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but on a related point, how many of you Windows to Mac switchers have changed your Mac to a 2.2 Gamma and how many are using the Mac 1.8 Gamma for your color managed workflows?

[form]

They're not critical to me and I don't know about some of them at all. I have no use for a videocam, and I can't imagine using a resolution much higher than 1280x960 (I have a single 19" CRT display for editing), though I know the higher res is more modern...but to me it seems like a waste. What benefit is there in significantly higher resolution on the screen?

I realize that since I consider it an upgrade when I move from a 10 year old computer to a 7 year old one, I'm not on the "cutting edge" of technology...but what do you need all that extra stuff for unless you do lots of video and audio editing, exporting and conversion while running a dozen other programs?

I feel old now.

[Tony-S]

I've done video chatting with the family while on extended trips, and that's about all I use the camera for. But the point is, those things cost money and the better equipment increases the cost - you get what you pay for.

I don't know many people who do image editing on their laptops because the displays are nearly all TN panels, they're often too small, and now all Macs have glossy covers on them. So those with deep pockets (like Andrew :) ) can connect a 30" ACD or Dell display, keyboard and mouse to their laptops and use them like desktops. When I got my MPB I thought the autodimming display and lighted keyboard were just gimmicks, but now that I've used them extensively (late nights writing grant proposals) I cannot imagine having a laptop without them. Much easier on the eyes and typos don't happen nearly as often.

But it all comes down to what one wants or needs in a computer. It's pretty much all the same these days.

[OdiN1701]

haha Tony....It's not deep pockets - it's called a payment plan from Dell :p It's about paid off though at least :)

[MaxxuM]

Burned CD? Possible issue with the media not working well in that drive? Might try a fresh copy too - maybe a scratch or something?

Do they have a boot menu? Some of them you can press F12 or something, get a boot menu, and tell it where to boot from. Pick the DVD and see what happens. If it still doesn't boot from it or you get an error that it can't, then I'd suspect some media problem of some sort. Unlikely that all the drives are bad - I could see one or two going out if you had a bunch of them, but not all doing the same thing unless there was a firmware issue.

That's the only other suggestion is a firmware update for the drive if available.

Yes, they may be that fickle. I always press F12 and pick the optical drive option. In this case no dice it would seem. They give error 123, which is "Other Error" among them is boot failure. It doesn't even check the CD when I hit F1 to retry. Oh well, I'll burn another disk, this time at x2 speed to make it more palatable. It's almost time to go home so it will have to wait for tomorrow.

[Gimpy00Wang]

The first Mac that I owned was a PowerBook G4 12". It never let me down and my wife still uses it. I replaced the battery a couple of years ago and will do so again if necessary.

I'm now on an Intel MacBook and I love it. 2.2GHz Core 2 Duo w/4GB RAM works pretty well with LR -- even when chewing on the 50D's RAW files.

- Chris

[René Damkot]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but on a related point, how many of you Windows to Mac switchers have changed your Mac to a 2.2 Gamma and how many are using the Mac 1.8 Gamma for your color managed workflows?

Only distantly related ;)

Mac Gamma 1.8 is an ancient leftover, and should not be used IMO.

On a side note: It won't matter one bit in a color managed program...

[Tony-S]

Did you miss my post?

I also just configured a Latitude E6500 with the 15" LED backlit screen:

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T9600 (2.80GHz, 6M L2 Cache, 1066MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista® Ultimate SP1, With media
3 Year Limited Warranty and 3 Year Mail-in Service
15.4” UltraSharp™ Wide WXGA+ (1440x900) LED Display-Brushed Metal Black
NVIDIA Quadro NVS 160M
4.0GB, DDR2-800 SDRAM, 2 DIMMS
Internal English Keyboard
Digital Microphone
250GB Hard Drive, 7200RPM with Free Fall Sensor
8X DVD+/-RW w/Roxio and Cyberlink Power DVD™
Dell Wireless™ 1397 802.11b/g Mini Card
6 Cell Battery

Price for that is $2047 (I got $2061 for the 14" model)

Oh the E6500 has display port too.

No Andrew, I saw it. It just wasn't much different than the others and I really don't want to get into a protracted discussion on the topic. When I configured the Dell to be as similar as possible (which can never be exactly the same), the price was $2,251 (see attachment), which is still about $250 less than the MBP. (I added features to the E6500 to bring it more in line with the MBP, including Bluetooth, 802.11n, 9-cell battery etc. I did not add virus or spyware protection, though.) For that extra $250 the MBP gets you:

1. 2560x1600 resolution for an external display from its dual-link video card (vs. 1920x1200 for the Dell)
2. Auto-dimming display
3. 320 gb hard drive (vs 250 gb in the Dell)
4. Digital optical digital audio up to 7.1 (analog for the Dell)
5. Faster (and more expensive) memory @ 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM (vs. 800 mhz DDR2 for the Dell)
6. Multi-touch trackpad (vs. conventional trackpad for the Dell)
7. Thinner and lighter (unibody aluminum enclosure)

So, if these features aren't worth an extra $300 or so to a person, then that's fine. I'm sure the Dell's a nice computer. It does come with some things the MBP doesn't - in particular eSATA, Blu-Ray option, about 6 hour battery (vs. 5 hour for the MBP), up to 8 gb RAM (vs. only 6 gb for the MBP), and the 3 year warranty. Apple's behind on external drive technology and still clinging to FW (although that's apparently changing with the new MB).

In the end, as I've always said, one should pick the system that works best for them. But considering the hardware used in the computers, there's not a lot of difference in cost. And I'm pretty sure you'd agree that none of those $900 laptops in the closed thread are really comparable to the new MacBook, right?

[OdiN1701]

You're missing the extra $350 for the Apple Care - that was my main point. The Latitudes come with 3 years standard warranty so I think to best compare them, they should have the same warranty. It's a bigger point than some of the other differences like a webcam, IMO. Also, I don't think anyone should get a laptop (especially a $2000+ one) without a 3-year warranty. I've done a lot of repair work on various laptops, and some of those internal components are not even close to cheap.

I also added 3 years to the Studio model that I configured, IIRC. You can get the Studio/Inspiron models for much cheaper (though they tend to not have the option for the 2.8GHz chip). Depends what you are looking for. I don't see the advantage to the Latitude, personally. I've had 3 different Inspiron models over the years and have been very pleased with performance and quality. But again I treat my equipment very well - others are harder on equipment and certainly that aluminum casing would come in handy there.

I still get $2,066 for the E6500. I'm not choosing the "Blue" model because for whatever reason it's $200 more for the exact same thing, except you get a blue cover. I'd rather save the $200.

[Tony-S]

I've not been inclined to purchase extended warrantees, but I know others who always do with laptops. I'm on my fourth Apple laptop (iBook, iBook G4, MacBook, MacBook Pro) and all of them are still working. I've had to replace the battery on the iBook (it's now my father-in-laws), but it's still going. Of course, warrantees are insurance policies - you never know when you might need them.

[OdiN1701]

Yeah - I bought the 3 year with my Inspirons but never needed it.

All it takes is one LCD screen to go out and the warranty pays for itself though.

Anyway - yeah I'm a function over form guy when it comes to a computer so I'm not going to be considering "style" of a system as a purchase point. That alone can be worth extra money for some - hence the blue cover vs. black.

[Krapo]

I was a hardcore PC user, and I bought a Macbook 18 months ago just to try. I have to admit I really love the OS and the whole thing.

Now my problem is that my machine is showing its limitations (2.16Ghz, 2GB RAM) with a big LR 2 library and large images opened in Photoshop CS3 at the same time.
Since I also would like to give a try at HD video in the short term, I'm contempating a new machine.

I would like anothe Mac, but:
- I'm not sure even the best MBPro will be enough for HD video editing, especially considering the max amount of RAM
- not too found of the iMacs for the same reason
- Mac Pro is too expensive

Any experience that could invelidate my point on MBPro performance in HD video editing? Do I need to sell a kidney to buy a Mac Pro?

[OdiN1701]

Apple needs a midrange desktop for someone like you.

They have high end (Mac Pro) and low end (iMac) but nothing midrange.

The Mac Pro will certainly do video editing just fine, but as you said it's rather expensive.

[cosworth]

Former Mac user.

Recently installed OSX on my dell XPS and was reminded why I switched. Vista's interface just gets work done faster for me. Yes, my menu bar is on the top in Windows. )

[Tony-S]

I was a hardcore PC user, and I bought a Macbook 18 months ago just to try. I have to admit I really love the OS and the whole thing.

Now my problem is that my machine is showing its limitations (2.16Ghz, 2GB RAM) with a big LR 2 library and large images opened in Photoshop CS3 at the same time.

First thing I'd do would be to put in 4 gb of RAM. What is your hard drive size and how much is free?

Since I also would like to give a try at HD video in the short term, I'm contempating a new machine... Any experience that could invelidate my point on MBPro performance in HD video editing? Do I need to sell a kidney to buy a Mac Pro?

On Macs, cpu speed and RAM are king for video work. A 2.16 gHz MacBook is just as fast at video as a 2.16 gHz MacBook Pro. We have Final Cut Express on both our MacBook and MacBook Pro. The only video apps from Apple that utilize the gpu are Motion and Color (and Aperture on the photo side), but they are part of the Final Cut Pro suite.

[Colorblinded]

Apple needs a midrange desktop for someone like you.There is a definite gap in Apple's lineup. I am not a fan of the iMac style of computers, if it's got a screen in it I don't want it if it's not a laptop. A midrange "Mac" desktop would probably sell well to people who don't really need the workstation nature of the Mac Pro which would cover many people here and elsewhere doing photo work on it along with many home users.

The Mac Pro realistically is overkill for many people who buy it, but Apple lacks an expandable desktop computer between the Mac Mini, iMac and Mac Pro. Something with with an optical drive, perhaps expansion for a second, and definitely room for a few hard drives.

[ErikM]

Former PC user (10+ years)

Recently had to help a co-worker out on his PC and was reminded why I switched... ;)

I have been using Macs for 5 years now... g3, g4 powerbook, g5 tower and now I just got myself a 24" iMac and it is amazing... lots of complaints about the glossy screen but my office has no windows so I never see any glare :) Calibration was simple with the spyder3pro too :D Also have a 22" Samsung running beside it for some extra real estate.

[Tony-S]

Apple needs a midrange desktop for someone like you.

There is a definite gap in Apple's lineup.

Yeah, like my desktop. :D

[OdiN1701]

Yeah, like my desktop. :D

Well you cheated and I'm sure Apple wouldn't approve. :p

[Colorblinded]

Funny thing is I know that if Apple sold copies of OSX to install on other hardware I'd buy a one. I wouldn't abandon Windows or Linux (I still use Windows the most these days) but I'd have OSX as a boot option. I'm not going to buy their hardware anyway, I prefer to build my own desktops and historically I've not been enamored with their laptops.

[collierportraits]

I'd like to chime in here again. My wife's desktop PC went down with a virus (which I'm sure is fixable) and I ended up buying a used iMac on here (Thanks Nostalg1a!) and it came in on Sat. My wife is now in love with Mac. It came with VM Fusion and Windows installed as well as Leopard, but she wanted to know why in the world we would ever need Windows? lol. ;)

So, another user happy with the switch! Just thought I would mention it. In the sake of fairness, I do have a close friend who switched and bought a 17" MBP and ended up breaking the screen because he picked it up with one hand. NOW, he hates anything Apple even though they REFUNDED ALL OF HIS MONEY, and took the machine back! This was after, maybe 3-4 months. His point was this shouldn't have happened especially considering he spent, like $2,800 on the machine. I suppose he has a point, but... how can you complain after customer service like that? They did EVERYTHING they could to make him happy... So, not everyone that switches is happy, but he's the only example I know that wasn't!

And, emorphien, I must admit - I'm pretty enamored with their new MacBooks! They look pretty sweet and if they perform better than my MBP, then I would be pretty happy!

[OdiN1701]

How do you break the screen just by picking it up with one hand? I do that all the time with my laptop. Did he drop it? Or did he grab it by the screen?

You can't please everyone.

I used to manage a computer repair/custom PC shop back in CA. We had a guy come in with an issue - installed some ancient program on XP that even said during the install not to install it on this version of windows, blah blah. Anyway cleaned it up - told him NOT to install it again.

He was back in 2 days, he installed it agian and (surprise) had the same problem. We charged him again and he got super pissed off that we were charging him to fix the same problem after we explicitly told him not to install that software again.

Finally told him I would waive the fee and he got even more pissed. In the end I didn't charge him and told him not to ever come back.


We also had people with viruses come in to have machines fixed. They didn't want to lose data, etc. So we would image their systems. Sometimes we had to reload windows because the virus was that destructive. We would tell people this. Then when they figured out they had to reload their software and such (which they probably didn't pay for...wonder where the virus came from!) they would go nuts and not want to pay and all this sort of thing.

So I would take the image and put it back on their system so it was just as screwed as when it came in. If they weren't paying for it - they weren't getting a nice fresh copy of the OS on there.

You cannot please some people.

[Krapo]

First thing I'd do would be to put in 4 gb of RAM. What is your hard drive size and how much is free?

I didn't know my Macbook could take 4gb of RAM!
I have a 80gb hard drive and around 30gb are free (should be enough for scratch, no?)


On Macs, cpu speed and RAM are king for video work. A 2.16 gHz MacBook is just as fast at video as a 2.16 gHz MacBook Pro. We have Final Cut Express on both our MacBook and MacBook Pro. The only video apps from Apple that utilize the gpu are Motion and Color (and Aperture on the photo side), but they are part of the Final Cut Pro suite.

I know that the GPU isn't very useful for photo, and even video applications, but I'm sceptical about the ability of the Macbook Pro CPU and RAM to handle 1080p video editing. The truth is, besides the Mac Pro, I'm not sure if any Mac can handle that data rate. You need HUGE amount of RAM (8gb is far from luxury) and processing power :confused:

[MaxxuM]

I know that the GPU isn't very useful for photo, and even video applications, but I'm sceptical about the ability of the Macbook Pro CPU and RAM to handle 1080p video editing. The truth is, besides the Mac Pro, I'm not sure if any Mac can handle that data rate. You need HUGE amount of RAM (8gb is far from luxury) and processing power :confused:

Video card starts playing a larger roll in rendered video, i.e. Adobe After Effects, Apple Studio Motion and the like. It can play a big roll in HD video too.

I work with a MBP and Mac Pro and Final Cut Studio 2 and some of it is HD. RAM in my case doesn't play as much roll as just pure CPU power. My Mac Pro just eats through rendering far faster than my quad PC. That said, my MBP does an admirable job with HD - it just takes longer to render (which I rarely do on the MBP - I move projects over to my Mac Pro when I'm ready to render scenes). No laptop to my knowledge does a great job with intensive video but many do a fine job on small projects (10-15 minutes). If you plan on doing an entire movie (30min-2hrs) of HD rendered (filters/effects) on any laptop you're not going to get speeds as you would on a full desktop or workstaion.

I use my MBP (2.5Ghz/4GB RAM) and it does fine - I just don't go above low quality in preview mode and I make my external eSATA my swap out area because it is faster than the internal drive. Never use a laptop HD as the project drive or swap drive - they are all too slow unless you have a reall high end machine. I did a show about three months ago in 1080i (remember, most consumer camers are not true 30fps cameras) and it was about 2hrs with an external DD 5.1 recorder and I didn't really notice any significant slow down until I started adding filters (there is an anti-motion filter which Studio has that is very nice). Render times started getting really bad when I added come color cleaning actions to deal with blown out stage backdrops... Long story short, it did fine with low preview and a render time of about 4.5 hours - on my Mac Pro the same project would probably be done in 30min if not less. Serious video needs a desktop, avid amatures would do fine with most upper level laptops as long as they are in no hurry to get their movies rendered.

[Tony-S]

I didn't know my Macbook could take 4gb of RAM!
I have a 80gb hard drive and around 30gb are free (should be enough for scratch, no?)

You should have this computer (http://www.macworld.com/product/hardware/117/detail.html). If so, it has a 32-bit memory controller and can address about 3.3 gb of RAM. If you install two 2 gb SO-DIMMs you will have access to about 3.1 gb of memory but retain dual-channel performance over your memory bus (which shares RAM with vRAM). If you install 1 gb and 2 gb chips, you'll get the full 3 gb of RAM but you lose dual channel performance (about a 5% hit in video).

For hard drive space, every 45 min of standard def video takes about 10 gb of space. If you're working with 1080p, then you need to multiply that number by about 4 depending on how your camera compresses the video. You can replace the hard drive in your MacBook in about 5 minutes, and the 500 gb drives are now down to about US$150 (WD, Samsung 2.5" SATA). Of course, you can also get a Firewire drive up to 1.5 TB in size.

Keep in mind that notebooks are great for video capture under field conditions, but they are no substitute for a desktop if you want to do video editing. While you may not be attracted to an iMac, the 24" model will give you 1080p resolution natively.

With your MacBook connected to a 24" external display you will also get 1080p resolution (1920x1200 is its maximum). But what's most important for playback is the bit rate and codec that the video is in. Some are easier to manage than others, but those are often lower bit rate, thus lower quality. No way to tell how your MB would behave without trying it first. Do you have a 1080p video camera already? If so, then give it a try with iMovie HD 6 (you should have it, but if not it's a free download (http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/imovieHD6.html) from Apple). Note, though, that iMovie does not support all HD video cameras, so you'll want to check your camera's compatibility.

I know that the GPU isn't very useful for photo, and even video applications, but I'm sceptical about the ability of the Macbook Pro CPU and RAM to handle 1080p video editing. The truth is, besides the Mac Pro, I'm not sure if any Mac can handle that data rate. You need HUGE amount of RAM (8gb is far from luxury) and processing power :confused:

Well, I cannot comment much about RAM requirements, but there are many people who do 1080p video editing with Final Cut Express on MacBooks, MacBook Pros and iMacs and none of them officially support more than 4 gb. Have you checked Apple's discussion forums (http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa) for user experiences? Probably the best place to check.

[Tony-S]

Well you cheated and I'm sure Apple wouldn't approve. :p

And that would make me quite happy. ;)

[Electric Shepherd]

I've got a 2.16GHz MacBook [white though] and I'm almost certain the 2007 era models [pre Santa Rosa] can only take 2Gb max, like mine. Later MacBooks can indeed take more.

I have upsized the hard drive from 120Gb to 250Gb though [very easy to do] as I was running out space pretty sharpish.

Works great for photo editing. I don't do any video stuff other than the occasional project in iDVD and that takes an age, so I can't imagine a MacBook [at any rate a 2007 model or earlier] cutting the mustard for 1080p video editing.

[Krapo]

.

I have upsized the hard drive from 120Gb to 250Gb though [very easy to do] as I was running out space pretty sharpish.


Did you reinstall everything on the new disk (including the OS) or is there a way to copy an image of the old disk to the new one?
My problem is that I've lost the CD of Leopard, and hence I can't reinstall it.

[Tony-S]

I've got a 2.16GHz MacBook [white though] and I'm almost certain the 2007 era models [pre Santa Rosa] can only take 2Gb max, like mine. Later MacBooks can indeed take more.

Apple only advertises it as taking 2 gb, but if it is a Core 2 Duo (and not a Core Duo or Core Solo), then it can take two 2 gb chips for 3.1 total of available RAM.

Works great for photo editing. I don't do any video stuff other than the occasional project in iDVD and that takes an age, so I can't imagine a MacBook [at any rate a 2007 model or earlier] cutting the mustard for 1080p video editing.

Again, video editing on a Mac is processor-dependent. The faster the speed and greater number of cores, the better.

[Tony-S]

Did you reinstall everything on the new disk (including the OS) or is there a way to copy an image of the old disk to the new one?
My problem is that I've lost the CD of Leopard, and hence I can't reinstall it.

Download Carbon Copy Cloner (free). All you need is an external enclosure (with an internal SATA interface) or a universal drive adapter to clone your old drive to the new one. Once that's done, boot from the new drive to make sure it's working properly, then swap drives out. After that, you can put your old drive into the enclosure and have a nice external drive.

[Electric Shepherd]

Krapo, pretty much the same as Tony says, except that I used an app called SuperDuper [free too] rather than Carbon Copy Cloner. No need to erase anything, very straightforward.

Are you sure re the RAM position Tony? I'd also checked on Crucial's memory scanner out of interest in the past, and that indicated that I had the maximum 2Gb fitted for my machine [and yes, it is a Core 2 Duo processor].

[Tony-S]

Are you sure re the RAM position Tony? I'd also checked on Crucial's memory scanner out of interest in the past, and that indicated that I had the maximum 2Gb fitted for my machine [and yes, it is a Core 2 Duo processor].

Have a look here (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/MacBook/DDR2/). Apple often doesn't tell you the whole truth...

[Electric Shepherd]

*MacBook Core 2 Duo 1.83GHz and 2.16GHz models are able to accept a matched pair of 2GB modules for 4.0GB total, but only fully utilize the first 3.0GB of installed memory. Even so, even with these systems, there is some benefit to having the matched pair of 4.0GB installed.
Ahh, gotcha. 4Gb won't give the full improvement, but still a step up.

[Krapo]

The amount of expertise and support on this forum will never stop to surprise me!

Many thanks Tony and Shepherd