Crime scene camera question

[C.S.I.]

Hi,

Im a police crime scene investigator, and am trying to overhaul my photography division. We just introduced digital to our lineup, and my partner ordered a 300D. I have a 300D myself off duty, which is fantastic, but I dont think the 300D is going to be up to par for the stresses in the field. Im trying to get a few 20D's, and was wondering if you guys had any suggestions for selling points for my situation. Is it true that the 20D is a more suited for the elements (rain etc) than the 300D (that would be a MAJOR selling point for me). Im also aware of the larger MP for blow ups, faster shutter speed, mirror lock up and B+W mode (does that work well....B+W....believe it or not, some district attorneys dont want blood red in crime scene photos :( )

Thank you very much
Bill

[CoolToolGuy]

The 20D as well as the 1D MKII can use a Canon accessory known as the Data Verification Kit. I don't know all of the particulars but it basically uses software to verify that the image presented is as it was taken by the camera - unaltered. Look here:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=319787&is=REG

This would seem to be a major justification for you. You might want to look around the Web for more information on this, like who's using it, how well it works, etc.

Good luck and keep us posted. I am interested in hearing real life results from this.

Have Fun,

[PacAce]

Both the 300D and the 20D handle the elements equally and that's not very well. I would recommend the 1DmkII for your kind of work as the 1DmkII is dust and weather sealed.

[Turbowolf]

Upsell the Admin using this basis:

300D - limited in data verification, may be questionable in court when the images cannot be verified as original.

20D - slightly more expensive although with the Data Verification kit there will be fewer problems as to the images value as original, easier chain-of-evidence documentation. Much easier...

If they insist on the 300D due to budget constraints, figure out the average number of cards you use on a scene, then figure out the number of cards you would need while the original is locked up in evidence...

Much cheaper to use a 20D w/DV than to buy a years worth of CF cards...

(BTW - Retired LEO - Chief)

[Turbowolf]

As for shooting in black and white, it would be much easier to shoot in color, then convert using PS.

Any DA will understand the concept, when explained in words of two syllables or less.
If the DA is a putz, then find a friendly judge to run one or two cases past where the images are accepted as evidence, with the courts knowledge that they represent the same image as seen on the day they were taken for scene documentation, only that they were converted to black and white using commonly and publically available software, designed for that purpose. Precedent set, problem solved and less images to tie up a CSI's time in the office processing and documenting images for evidence. (saving manpower hours, every Admin's dream)

Should make life at work easier, and the original files, burned to a CD, will still be available if a color image is needed for comparison.

(Small department LEO - with many, many hats)

[PacAce]

(Small department LEO - with many, many hats)
Then I would like to amend my suggestion to a 20D and lots of zip-lock bags. :mrgreen:

[Mthorpe_Davies]

What's an LEO?

[mickle]

Law Enforcement Officer?

[PhotosGuy]

...but I dont think the 300D is going to be up to par for the stresses in the field.
Maybe, maybe not. Seems like, for the money & a probably soon a price reduction due to the newer model, you could get several 300D's & keep a few on the shelf if there was a problem with one. There's always the KISS principle to keep in mind, too.

[DaveG]

Hi,

Im a police crime scene investigator, and am trying to overhaul my photography division. We just introduced digital to our lineup, and my partner ordered a 300D. I have a 300D myself off duty, which is fantastic, but I dont think the 300D is going to be up to par for the stresses in the field. Im trying to get a few 20D's, and was wondering if you guys had any suggestions for selling points for my situation. Is it true that the 20D is a more suited for the elements (rain etc) than the 300D (that would be a MAJOR selling point for me). Im also aware of the larger MP for blow ups, faster shutter speed, mirror lock up and B+W mode (does that work well....B+W....believe it or not, some district attorneys dont want blood red in crime scene photos :( )

Thank you very much
Bill


I'd be looking for a 1D MArk II if I was you. It's a professional grade camera, 8MP and you can use the Canon Data Verification System. It has better water resistance than the 20D and will last a lot longer under difficult conditions.

Shoot nothing but colour. You can always make it black and white later for the moron district attorney but you can't make it into colour.

I had to spend a fair bit of time thinking about this for a client who shares some of your needs. The first thing to do is to make sure that the clock and date in your camera is accurate. The EXIF information is going to be sent along with every shot that you take. If you tell the court that you took it at 9:30AM on March 12, 2005, and the EXIF clearly says 4:15 on January 16, 1999 (because the clock and date is wrong) it'll look sloppy and might get everything thrown out!

Checking the clock/date at the beginning of your shift and at the end should be part of every work day you have. "Yes your honour I check the clock in the camera twice each shift, at the beginning and at the end and I note any errors. There was no recorded time error on June 6th and I photographed the scrime scene starting at 7:03.23 and finished at 8:31.29. That image on screen was taken at 7:21.06, your honour."

I'd also shoot nothing but RAW. Now I'm a RAW fan to begin with, but the real reason is that (as near as I can tell) you can't change a RAW file. You bring the file into Photoshop (or whatever). You make changes within Camera RAW and send it over to the regular Photoshop. Then you try to save it. When you do this it must be saved as a .psd, .jpg or anything BUT a .cr2 (that is RAW) file. Since the RAW file is effectively SAVED AS rather than SAVED, a new file has been created and the original RAW file preserved. Subsequently you can always go back to that unchanged RAW file. You can delete a RAW file, and you can physically lose it, but you CAN'T overwrite it!

I can see showing the dark, badly white balanced original RAW file in court, explaining that a RAW file right out of the camera is a work in progress and then showing a colour corrected, sharpened BUT UNMANIPULATED final .psd (or whatever file format you like) to the court.

Where digital imaging is so new and it's so easy to manipulate the final image, these two suggestions may make your life simpler. If I was a defence lawyer I'd attack any digital imaging as being suspect, which isn't all that much of a stretch, unless the police could show me that it was an unchanged original. The real original on the CF card is far to volatile to store for any length of time, so common sense means optical storage and you are going to have to explain that to the court too.

By the way if anyone knows how to change a RAW file and still keep it a RAW file please let me know.

[CoolToolGuy]

I'd also shoot nothing but RAW. Now I'm a RAW fan to begin with, but the real reason is that (as near as I can tell) you can't change a RAW file. You bring the file into Photoshop (or whatever). You make changes within Camera RAW and send it over to the regular Photoshop. Then you try to save it. When you do this it must be saved as a .psd, .jpg or anything BUT a .cr2 (that is RAW) file. Since the RAW file is effectively SAVED AS rather than SAVED, a new file has been created and the original RAW file preserved. Subsequently you can always go back to that unchanged RAW file. You can delete a RAW file, and you can physically lose it, but you CAN'T overwrite it!

I'm no expert on this, as I haven't used the DVK, but I think use of JPG is implied. The software verifies the JPG. Any post-processing could introduce the possibility for manipulation.

Have Fun,

[coatsie]

Hi there - I didn't realise you were allowed to use digital cameras for crime scenes as the reason being they could be manipulated easier?????

[CoolToolGuy]

Hi there - I didn't realise you were allowed to use digital cameras for crime scenes as the reason being they could be manipulated easier?????

That's the point of this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=319787&is=REG

Take a minute or so and read up on it!

Have Fun,

[C.S.I.]

Hi there - I didn't realise you were allowed to use digital cameras for crime scenes as the reason being they could be manipulated easier?????

When Im asked on the stand in a court of law (New York) "Officer, are these photos a clear, concise and unobstructed view of the scene that you photographed at the time of the incident in question".........the answer (from me anyhow) is always "yes, that is a clear and unobstructed view of the crime scene (other than , perhaps rulers or measuring tapes in the photo)". As far as Im concerned (as well as my local district attorney), film images may be manipulated or changed as easily as digital formats (scanners, photoshop, etc). The before metioned instrument is moot (write protected cd-r equipment), so long as I can testify that the images were as I observed them when I pressed the shutter button....... Creative writing, and effective testimony is the key :)

[ron chappel]

so would they mind you converting color images to B&W?
Would that be possible within the realms of the data verification thing? Could be a good selling point for the 20D (or at least the 350D wich can also do B&W)

[slin100]

This subject was discussed in some other forum and from what I recall, the key is to maintain a constant chain of control over the evidence, in this case, images. As long as that is maintained, the additional guarantees offered by the Data Verification Kit are seldom warranted. It seems that it is sufficient if one testifies that the image is a faithful representation of a scene.

One could argue that the Data Verification Kit cannot control any manipulations prior to rendering the image as a JPG. Shutter speed, aperture, sharpness, contrast, saturation, lighting, etc. all affect the image's rendering of a scene.

[CyberDyneSystems]

If you use the Data verification and want black and white,. you HAVE to shoot on the 20D. (currently the only Canon that works with data verification and can be set to shoot B&W natively)

You will not be able to convert using PS as that will be fiddling with the image,. and the data verification will be void.

Unfortunately this means that th 1D MkII is a no go as it does not have a B&W mode.

[CyberDyneSystems]

P.S.,

You CAN use a digital for crime/court,. in fact I have,. and my images won the case as the only evidence entered other than the eyewitness (also me)

Where the data verification comes into play is when you are faced with the right (or wrong as the case may be) cracker jack defense lawyer who decides it's time to tear your case apart.

[coatsie]

Hi thanks for the info - interesting reading - I thought you still had to use film - I feel better informed now. Thanks

[Tomsk]

If you use the Data verification and want black and white,. you HAVE to shoot on the 20D. (currently the only Canon that works with data verification and can be set to shoot B&W natively)

You will not be able to convert using PS as that will be fiddling with the image,. and the data verification will be void.

Unfortunately this means that th 1D MkII is a no go as it does not have a B&W mode.

Why not just print out to a B&W device such as a mono laser?

[CyberDyneSystems]

Why not just print out to a B&W device such as a mono laser?

Good point ;)

[Headcase650]

If you boos wants a 300d and you want a 20d one selling point for the 20D is it can focus in much less light.

[karusel]

What's the budget?

I'm no expert, but I'd say regarding the circumstances, the 1DMKII would be perfect. To sum up: very accurate AF that works in even less light than that of 20D, 1D has less noise - better resolution, better weather resistance, better overall build so it lasts longer. Plus the ability to use data verification software.

But I'm afraid they won't share our opinion that those superior properties are worth the price, so I think they might get persuaded to take 20D's instead of 300D's.

Also, photopig, now I understand the why of your nickname :D Cool!

[C.S.I.]

Also, photopig, now I understand the why of your nickname :D Cool!


lol ty ;)

[C.S.I.]

Thanks for all the help / suggestions guys, my boss OK'd us for the 20D's. We are each assigned a 20D, so Im pretty siked (was planning on getting one myself eventually). Police work has some benefits ;) .....Wish the boss ok'd the Mark II, but ........oh well.



Thanks again!

[Southswede]

My Mrs. works in our crime lab. They just went to the Fuji S2Pro. With film, they were shooting Nikon and were able to use the same lenses. (Thats why the S2 Pro. They didn't like the Nikon Digital offerings).

I carry my 20D on patrol.