Small theatre - "Le Mis" equipment question

[tim]

I'm the unofficial photographer for a production of Le Mis at a small theatre near here, and i'm thinking I might be needing a little more equipment. They'll have a professional doing shots too, but the guy in charge is happy for me to come along to rehersals and the dress rehersal to get candids and to have shots of how things progress. I don't know if the professional will be very happy with that, but oh well, he'll just have to take better pictures than me if he wants to sell any.

It's a small community theatre: there are 10 tables that each sit 10 people, and the stage isn't large. The front tables are about 2 meters from the stage, and there's no need for amplification of any kind. They say it's going to be a bit of a challenge to get everyone on the stage for the big numbers.

What kind of gear would you think i'd need for this? My current list's in my sig below - I suspect the 28-75 might be a bit short if I want to stay out of their hair. I was thinking a 70-200 F4 might be good for this sort of thing - the F2.8 IS would be better, obviously, but it's more than I want to spend right now.

Once I work out the gear then i'll start thinking about technique.

Thoughts anyone?

[Pekka]

It all depends on lighting.... have you seen any plays there? Maybe you can go there are check what kind of exposures you can get at any given ISO and do they allow enough shutter speed or not with your current gear. Without information of what you really need, bying lenses is lottery :)

To me its sounds like a good place for 35/2 at f2.5 (my favourite aperture with that lens),

Some common low light event shooting lenses (some I have and some I would like to have):

35/2
50/1.4
85/1.8
85/1.2L
24/1.4L
20/1.8 (Sigma)
100/2
135/2L
70-200/2.8L
200/1.8L
300/2.8L

All those without L are lower budget stuff, but still very usable.

[tim]

I have the 50mm F1.8 as a low light lens, it's not perfect but it's not bad. I was just thinking mainly about the focal length i'd need. Maybe i'll go along to a rehersal, try out the 50mm and 28-75mm F2.8 and see how things go. If I need a longer lens the information I get from doing that will point me at which lens I need - thanks Pekka :)

[CoolToolGuy]

A tripod is a step in the right direction, but a monopod may be more flexible. I use one in a theater environment, and it lets me move it around easily while steadying the camera.

At the distance you mention, I would agree with Pekka on the EF 35 f2. It is still a mild telephoto on a 1.6 camera, but it is inexpensive and fast.

I would up the ISO to 200 or 400. With most theater lighting that may give you decent shutter speeds.

By all means see if you can test your setup out ahead of time, if only to determine a good focal length. Try your 28-75 at 35mm, and see if that is wide enough. You may need to go to wider. The EF 28 f1.8 is approximately normal for a 1.6 camera, and it is around $375 USD. I think f2.8 (your 28-75) is too slow, but perhaps with a suppoort (monopod or tripod) you can make it work.

Good luck.

Have Fun,

[tim]

Here I was thinking i'd need a telephoto and F4 should be ok, and you're recommending wide lenses at F2! My widest lens is the kit lens @ 18mm, and I use it so rarely i'd not bother to buy another. I might even use the 28-75 @ 28mm and just stand further back ;)

My style tends to focus on one person rather than try to capture the whole scene, but for a musical i'll obviously want to do a bit of both. A monopod's a really good idea, I might have to invest in one of them.

[ron chappel]

My style tends to focus on one person rather than try to capture the whole scene, but for a musical i'll obviously want to do a bit of both. A monopod's a really good idea, I might have to invest in one of them.

Ah ok. Longer focal lenths may be a good idea after all.
I too think primes may be needed but only becaue i'm constantly disapointed by the light levels of any local venues i go to.It's really one of those things that you'll need to know before getting serious about lens choices

[tim]

I only have one camera, and i'll constantly be changing what i'm shooting, primes would be a pain to have to change all the time. For me, now, zooms are good enough quality and I like the flexability.

I'll wait until after i've gone along once to see what kind of lens I think i'll need, and how fast I need it. At least I have the 20D now, so I can up the ISO and have less noise, plus noise reduction software to clean it up even more.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Tim, I shoot in theatres without flash quite a bit.
My experience is with the two f/2.8 zooms,. (28-70mm and 70-200mm) originally,. and these do quite well indeed,. but really if you can do the fast prime route your better off.

I recently got the 85mm f/1.8 (very affordable, very fast and very good images)
And the 135mm f/2L

With these two I think I may forget all about the 70-200mm zoom,. they kick it's but in low light ,. letting me shoot at least one ISO stop lower which is allways a blessing,. or getting my fast enough shutter speeds at 3200 when the f/2.8 could not.

I have the 50mm f/1.8 as well,. and will need to look at a wider fast prime at some point to finish the collection. Of course I am able to use two bodies which makes prime shooting a lot more flexible.

With what you have now you can try the f/2.8 zoom and your 100mm macro (and of course the nifty fifty) and see what you need from there,.

If you can work with f/2.8 and need to remain married to zooms then you next lens is absolutley a 70-200mm f/2.8.

You can save $$ by forgoing the IS,. and or getting the Sigma.

[tim]

I guess then the 70-200 F4L goes out the window? Damn, I was looking for an excuse to get one of them ;)

The primes look good, though a little more hastle with only one body. I guess i'll try the three lenses I have, see what I think, then report back in a week or so for more advice. Of course keep the advice coming in for this... especially about how to do it, rather than with what gear... links to good threads or websites would be great - but i'll search myself soon too :)

[CyberDyneSystems]

You'll shoot wide open,. I usually am in AV mode and let the shutter fall where it may,. as you get used to it,., you shoot at the pauses,. and when they move into more light and the shutter speed bumps up..

If the show is using colored lighting,. and cues (pretty much 100% likely) then setting a custom white balance is out of the question. There fore I shoot RAW and AWB.

Timing is really the key,. if the light is not enough to give you anything faster than saw 1/125...

[CoolToolGuy]

Its hard to get around the lens speed issues. If you find you 'need' the primes one thing you can do, especially if you will attend several performances, is to use one lens per performance to get the shots you need or limit your changes figuring you will get it next time.

Have Fun,

[tim]

Thanks guys. You say 1/125th is the slowest speed to use, is that when they're still or if they're moving around? I don't mind using high ISOs, noise removal software's pretty good these days :)

[Olegis]

Hi tim.

The shutter speed depends on two things - the lens focal length and the object movement. Personally I wouldn't shoot a moving actor at 1/125s with 85mm lens, because this speed is very marginal. With 1/200-1/250s you'll do much better. I've shot some live concerts with my 70-200 f/2.8L - most of the time I was using f/2.8, ISO 1600 and shutter speeds around 1/200-1/250-1/320s. Sometimes I was able to go to ISO 800, but that was on very rare occcasions.

I also recommend shooting in Manual mode - once you get the exposure right, you'll need only minor exposure compensation to get it right all the time. Shoot in RAW, it will give you more flexibility in post-processing later (which means you must have plenty of storage).

[tim]

Thanks Oleg. I shoot in RAW most of the time, usually in Av mode rather than M though. I'll probably keep trying Av, though i'll try M if the shots aren't coming out right. Thanks for the guidance on shutter speeds, since I don't shoot people often I don't have a feel for what I should use yet :)

[rg-tom]

if you were lookin at the 70-200 F4L anyway, why not consider the very slightly more expensive 70-200 Sigma F2.8? Supposedly a cracker of a lens at a significant saving over the Canon 70-200 F2.8L and at apparantly not much / any optical quality loss :)

[René Damkot]

Just my 2 €cents.... I think using tungsten or K whitebalance is easyer than AWB. When using a monopod shutterspeeds down to 1/30s should be do-able (if the subject isn't moving) if the subject is moving, 1/250s might not be enough.... You'll probably end up using ISO 1600, lenses wide open.... If lighting is concistent, I'ld use M mode instead of AV, so your exposures aren't screwed by 'the white dress vs the black suit'
Is it possible to move around, or are you 'confined' to the 'audience erea'?
BTW: Remember 'taking a few steps back' changes perspective, using a wider-angle lens doesn't....
Oh, and changing lenses with one body is very easy and fast once you are used to it. I did place a bit of white tape on the place of the red 'dot' on the lenses' mount, to make 'top side identification' faster...

[CyberDyneSystems]

Thanks guys. You say 1/125th is the slowest speed to use, is that when they're still or if they're moving around? I don't mind using high ISOs, noise removal software's pretty good these days :)

1/125th is the about the slowest that will stop motion if there moving,.. but not too fast.

This is why you try and catch the pauses,. then if you hold really steady you can go down to as low as 1/30th... (is can help,. but only if there not moving ;) )...but the best shots will be at faster shutters for obvious reasons.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Tim,

The trouble is that at least in my experince,. lighting is never consistent,. some shows have 200 or more lighting cues,. that means in the course of the show the lighting color and intensity will change dramtically 200 times. Setting a manual exposure at this point is not much use as the exposure will change 200 times. so M becomes a time issue,.

If you can't work in Manual,. you'll want to set to partial metering and keep the center on your subject.

Of course it depends on the show...

Tim you really won't know till you've seen what they are doing with lights. The shoots I do are usually dance,.. which is TOUGH! Becuase we are talking about a lot of movement and we are talking about sometime very "overcreative" lighting designers who love shadows,. mixed colors etc..

Again,. it all depends on what their doing for lighting. I have shot dances where at ISO 3200 I am praying to get enough light for a 1/125th shutter speed :(

[René Damkot]

"and lighting color usually changes a lot for a live perfromance."
Yeah, but wouldn't you want to see that in the pics? If there's a color gel in front of a light, I don't want it filtered out....

[tim]

Cheers guys, they're all good tips. I'll go along and see what they have planned and report back once I have questions/problems ;)

[DwightMcCann]

I realize that this reply is a touch tangential but I want to share possibilities: I have shot country bands at two local bar venues for about 18 months, probably 30 concerts. I added images of them to my commercial website ... still am shooting and adding although I am three or four behind right now ... I connected up with a DJ who was very involved. He pointed all the bands and their labels at my pictures and was constantly trying to sell me although I had not asked. He started a promotion business and uses my images on my website plus a website I am doing for him, also with my images. It was understood that this was not for free, but he doesn't have money to pay me at the moment ... I do get free eats and drinks and tickets for my wife so I feel adequately compensated anway. BUT, he got a gig working with our local indian casino and almost immediately put pressure on them to have me shoot their entertainment. I did three demonstration shoots, had a quadruple coronary bypass (unrelated), got back on my feet to find a handshake waiting for an agreement paying a pretty fair rate that is allowing me to switch from Nikon to Canon.

I think the two big issues are focal lengths and lighting, both the amount and the color. You need to be able to shoot head shots of individuals as well as the whole stage. At the casino the lighting is excellent although quite variable in intensity and color. At the two bars I shoot, the light is marginal, usually very hot (color temperature-wise) and the place is pretty tight packed. While I am just unpacking my new Canon equipment, I have found that my Nikkor 80-200mm f2.8 VR (VR=IS) sitting in the front row is just right at ISO1600 although sometimes I shoot ISO400. The issue is not how still I can hold it since the VR seems to give me almost 4 stops of steadiness, but the shutter speed versus the movement of the performers. My experience, about 30-40 live performances in decent conditions and 20-30 in awful conditions is to shoot as many exposures as possible because the critical issue is catching the performer when she's not moving ... I shoot between 200 and 400 images in a two hour show and often wish I had shot more. If I have 20 that are OK I am a happy camper. I also shoot from the same position with a 17-35mm f2.8 which lets me capture the whole stage at the bars. So, again given my experience, I would urge that while fast primes are glorious tools, that getting the tightest framing and having the most versatility may outweigh their advantages.

They are also having me shoot poker tournaments and boxing matches, both televised, so I'll have to shoot over to the sports forum, too! :-)

I have rambled on enough. I can see that I need to upgrade my sig and do the "biography" thing. Oh, to see my live performance images (and see that they are getting better) try the Maverick Saloon Project at http://DwightMcCann.com ... there's a link to my personal site there, too.

Dwight

[tim]

Thanks Dwight, there's some good info in there :) Nice pics on your website too :)

[tim]

I've done a few shoots in the theatre now, all rehersals, all under standard tungsten lighting not the lighting that'll be used for the show. I really hope the lighting for the show's brighter than the rather dim rehersal lighting, I was using F2.8/ISO 1600 and only getting 1/100 shutter speeds, sometimes a bit less, sometimes a bit more. I discovered a front focusing problem with one of my lenses today, the 50mm F1.8, so i'm not even sure i'm going to have that for the dress rehersals, since it'll probably have to go back to the states for replacement or calibration.

I'm definitely having a bit of trouble with these photos. It seems like 1/125 is about the minimum shutter speed I can use even when the person's near still, and if they're moving at all you need more like 1/250th or more if they're moving fast. It ain't as easy as it looks! I was using CF4-1 today, which seemed to help, though i'm not convinced.

Any more tips are most welcome.