Hockey Pics-Need More Help...

[Alan Dye]

OK here's the deal. I posted a few pics that I shot with my DReb and a Canon 75-300 f4-5.6. They came out OK, but I felt I could do better with a constant f2.8 thining I could "Improve my odds". NOT. I'm struggling more now than before.


Any help would GREATLY be appreciated.

Thanks!

[gramps]

I would shot in RAW, increase your shutter speed and make up any lack of exposure in PS.

[pcasciola]

Can you post a couple with the EXIF data?

[Alan Dye]

Can you post a couple with the EXIF data?

To Be honest, there weren't worth posting so I got rid of'em. I'm taking more this afternoon and will post a few results then. But if you have any suggestions prior to me shooting, I'd appreciate them.

Thanks

[swatcop169]

f/2.8
1/500
ISO800 or go to ISO1600 if you have to to get your shutter speed up to 1/500

[Alan Dye]

f/2.8
1/500
ISO800 or go to ISO1600 if you have to to get your shutter speed up to 1/500

Thanks Swatcop! I'll give those a try. Do you have any suggestion as to shooting in RAW or should I stay with JPEG? I'm also gonna try some in manual, hopefully something good will come of these. (It's the playoffs).

Thanks again!

[pcasciola]

Swatcop,

Have you tried shooting in Av mode and bumping the exposure up 2-3 clicks to compensate for the bright ice? Or does manual work better for you? I might be covering my first kid's hockey game in the next week or two and was thinking of trying that.

[swatcop169]

Swatcop,

Have you tried shooting in Av mode and bumping the exposure up 2-3 clicks to compensate for the bright ice? Or does manual work better for you? I might be covering my first kid's hockey game in the next week or two and was thinking of trying that.

I underexpose all my shots by 1 stop. Then adjust in PS. I usually shoot in in M mode with the f/4 (70-200L f/4) and 1/250. Once I pickup my 70-200L f/2.8 I'll bump my shutter speed up to 1/500 to minimize the motion blur.

[Alan Dye]

OK. Here are some of the pics from tonights game. What am I doin' wrong? ALL help appreciated.

Thanks

[eastcoast909]

Alan:

Try looking at this thread:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=55628

There are a number of suggestion in this that might help you. Not in the least is the 135 f/2.0 that Drisley uses :p :p !

I find it hard to believe that this is a f2.8 lens with it being as dark as this.

It also appears that it is not in focus, which might be part of the darkness as the Dreb has a hard time locking the focus in poor light.

Are you using a center weight for focus and wb?

I am not familiar with the lens that you are using. Do you get a similar problem if you take a picture of a static object (say the net) in the rink?

Have you had done the Hack to your rebel? It also might not be doing the auto focus well on a moving object if you have not done this. Even with the hack appllied it is not 100% that it will track.

Full exif for these pictures will help.

[Groundworxs]

Hey Alan your exposure look good but your focus is off. Where that comes from is a mystery. It could be the lens.

Sorry I can't help out more than that
Groundworxs

[gramps]

I wonder if shooting the glass around the rink is throwing off the focus???? Switch to RAW, then you can control the exposure in PS.

[swatcop169]

If I remember right the DR has a problem with center focus for lens with Av of f/2.8 which was another reason I upgraded to the 20D.

Was the lense set on AF instead of MF? Also in that first picture looks like some camera shake.

[Jetmech1]

I tried shooting some indoor sports with my 75-300 IS lens and I was not impressed. The 28-135mm IS seems to work better as long as it is kept to a short focal length so the lens has a larger aperture. But I purchased an 85mm 1.8 prime and so far I really like the lens. I have taken some fairly good indoor Bball pics of my kids. For hockey the 135mm prime would be great if you can afford it.

[stv737]

I too tried shooting a hockey game with the Drebel. I think part of the problem is the lens, something faster like a f/2.8 or faster would help alot. The other problem is lack of AI servo except in sports mode which limits you to ISO 400, which is the main reason I bought a 20D.

[deputy]

This is a picture I took at the Mullens Center..BU vs. Umass..Chris Bourque son of Boston Bruins legend Ray.....Canon Digital Rebel 300D ISO 1600...Canon Lense 75-300mm 1:4-5:6 III no flash. Processed through PSCS and Noiseware Community Edition.

[drisley]

A couple of important notes.
Firstly, pre-select one focus point, preferably the center one. This speeds up focusing, plus you aren't left guessing as to where the camera might be focusing as you usually are when using all the focus points.
Secondly, the DRebel doesnt have full time AI Servo focusing, and this can cause alot of problems.
When I had my DRebel, I had many misfocused shots because of the lack of AI Servo. The AI Focus mode did not reliably switch to Servo mode when it should. I used the hack, which gave full time Servo mode, except for the inability to take a shot (when you press the shutter all the way down, it won't fire). You have to quickly release the shutter and press back down to fire a shot using the hack firmware and Servo. Although not perfect, it really helps increase the number of keepers.

[Huckaback Photo]

Hi Alan.
what gramps said about shooting through the glass can throw the focus out, in the same way certain filters seem to effect our sharpness .
dont think you have lens problems , look to the focusing . try some manual focus and either real close to glass or above it . the distance in your shots looks sharper than the subjects.
exposure does not seem to be problem ,nothing levels would not correct.
use fastest pos shutter speed as already advised & high iso. best of luck.

Deputy.
welcome to the forum thats a great capture you have there.


Martin Huckaback Photo)

[Alan Dye]

Thanks for all the responses,

The 2 pix you see were in M mode with 800 ISO, Tv of 1/320, Av 2.8 and No Flash. The lens was a Tamron 28-105 with a constant f2.8. And yes the focus point was to the center. Plus I used Custom White Balance. I did try some with the setting to Av, but they came out real dark. BTW, None of the pics were Photoshop'd.

Here are some of my previous attempts with the Canon 75-300 f4-5.6 . setting were Tv 1/250, Av 4.5 and no flash. Seems like the slower lens works better? ??? Now these were adjusted in Photoshop.

One more thing, both sets of pics were shot usin a monopod to help eliminate shake. I thououghly confused now. Is it me, the lens, or a combination???

Also, I'm not sure what the "hack" is that you have spoken of. Please enlighten me.

Thanks!

[eastcoast909]

Ha! If I did not know better I would have said that the last two shots were done with the tamron and the first ones with the 70-300!! http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif

I would expect the Tamron to have a better light gathering ability than what is shown here, expecially with a f2.8 aperature.

Compared with your previous shots settings ( although you don't show the iso settings) they should be at least as bright, and the increase in speed for the shutter should allow you to eliminate some of the blurriness due to shake.

Are you able to take some stationary shots in the rink to eliminate the lens? Set it on a tripod and take a picture of a stationary object. This should allow you to be 100% certain that the lens is focused on the object when you trip the shutter.

The "Hack" is a change to the firmware of the camera that allows some of the functions of the 10d to be used on the Rebel (as the firmware is virtually the same). It was originally done up by a person called Wasia.

Of the more useful abilities it gives is Mirror Lockup, FEC and the ability to have an AI Servo focus function (sort of)(Drisley mentioned this).

It can all be found here:

http://www.photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42034

Look in the specific models section under Hack your 300D/Rebel

Have you looked for other posts for this lens under the circumstances that you are using it for? Try googling the lens and pictures to see what others have been able to accomplish.

[PhotosGuy]

I underexpose all my shots by 1 stop. Swatcop, that's not a good idea if you're shooting Jpegs. 1/2 of the image info is contained in the top 20% of the exposure! See:
Expose to the Right
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml

[swatcop169]

Swatcop, that's not a good idea if you're shooting Jpegs. 1/2 of the image info is contained in the top 20% of the exposure! See:
Expose to the Right
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/expose-right.shtml

Thanks :)

[pcasciola]

That's why I was thinking even bumping the exposure up 1 or 2 clicks might work better for ice hockey, especially since all that bright ice might cause the metering to be off.

[Alan Dye]

OK, I read about the "Hack" and it's something I might be interested in doing.

Question: How do I get it to download to a CF card? (I'm guessing that's how you get it into the camera).

Eastcoast, The settings were as follow's with the 75-300...

ISO 400
Tv 1/250
Av 4.5
No Flash

Also, I did take a stationary pic and it came out fine. It seemed that in "M" setting, the f2.8 allowed quite a bit more light than Tv, but focusing was touchy. (guessing here). Is there a way to check the focus before the shot (Short of reviewing and zooming in the LCD) My 48 yr old eyes still have difficulty seeing the quality of the pix in the LCD. :wink:

Appreciate all the advice and sorry if I'm bein' a pain.:rolleyes:

[Huckaback Photo]

PhotosGuy
I would agree with your statement above up to a point.
That point being if a particular camera body is not delivering accurate exposures and therefore the photographer has ajusted his settings to suit.
many years ago i did a test with 4 identical camera bodys (Olympus) only 2 gave the same exposure readings and 1 had just been tested by a camera technician, the print out showed near spot on shutter speeds. etc.
So we all assume each camera body can deliver spot on speeds and each lens spot on f stops.
you know what i'm saying.
My old D60 produces very slight under exposure my 1D mk2 seems to be great,
So get to what is best for your own set up.

Alan Dye
just taken a look at the exif data from your first 2 pics,
shutter speed is showing 1/160th a bit slow i would think, and yet there appears to be no movement recorded. hence my earlier coments about focus probs. or glass probs.
you shot with 800 iso and at an apperture of f 2.8 (however note the exif data shows that tamron lens actually reads maximum apperture f 3.0 ) as is offten the case with some lens manufacturers always stating the nearest . also noted the focal length to be 79mm (crop factor x 1.6 therefore equal to 126mm on a 35mm camera body) one more reason for faster speeds.

I note your 2 shot was at 105mm and 1/200th at 800 iso f2.8.
one of your later shots is showing 1/320th at f4.6 and yet with longer lens plus smaller apperture, so could be different venues ,with better light levels etc.? i also note you are above the protective glass screens and now your images are much better for sharpness and quallity.

my advice is
test these 2 lenses under normal lighting conditions on a tripod , self timer is good for this,both with and without filters attached. both using auto focus and manual focus. then try the same but hand held, it costs nothing to test out digital. get to know what speed you can hand hold for good results it may supprise you.
now apply this knowledge to the interiors you normally shoot in.
zooms are great versatile lenses but not allways the best of tools when it comes to more specialist applications.
the lens to use would be canon 85mm f 1.8 reasonable cost and close in focal length to what you allready use (but 2 stops faster).
also consider 50mm f1. 8 or 1.4......135mm f2 L expensive but magic.
Hope this helps in some way
Martin (huckaback Photo)

[Alan Dye]

Thanks Martin,

Yes, they were 2 differant venues. That's why I chose the Tamron for this particular site. I figured it would preform better in the dimmer light than the 75-300. Also, I haven't used it yet in the better lit 2nd venue, but I will try your suggestion the next time I shoot.

I do have some pix with the 75-300 in the 1st venue. I'll see if I can find them and post them later. (for comparison)

As far as the Exif info, all I know is what I read off my "Zoombrowser" program and what I initially set the camera up for. Not sure why your reading and mine are so differant ???

Thanks again to ALL who posted. I appreciate the assistance!

[Alan Dye]

Martin,

Here are a couple pics at the same venue, but with the Canon 75-300 f4-5.6. If I remember right, I did use flash on some of these.

[Huckaback Photo]

Alan
The image i checked in photoshop was ... JV play off HC066.
theres more exif info comes up in PS than is shown in zoom browser which i just checked.
all the basic will be shown in each program, even in windows you can right click and get the properties /advanced.
Martin

[Huckaback Photo]

Alan
image hc 342 is worlds appart from what you started with well done.
in order to check exif i opened in photoshop 7 .i then viewed your very first posted image alongside this one try it yourself.
by way of interest in PS there are approx 28 lines of info when you view the exif data.

i note hc 342 is showing 1/60 at f4.5 and 400 iso.
do not be worried about using higher iso settings your cam at 1600 then use noise removal would still give reasonable results in my view.
Martin

[Alan Dye]

Martin,

I don't have PS 7, I only have Elements 2. I think that pic may have been taken with a flash. (That would explain the 1/60).

Thanks for all the help you've given. I guess I just need to practice, practice, practice...

Thanks Again!

[Alan Dye]

Hopefully I can get the hang of it in less than 35Years !;) Your pics look great, good luck with the gallery!:D

Alan

[eastcoast909]

Ok, been away a bit, here is a page with the instructions on how to upload the firmware to the CF card using your camera.

http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/eosdigital/E3kr_firmware-e.html

This link here does a good job describing the hack and how to upgrade plus return if you want.

http://www.jjmb.nl/content/content.php?Name=wasiaupgrade

Good luck,

John

[Jonny]

A couple of important notes. AI SERVO

Can you help me out with a quick idea of how you use AI servo for sports.
I have been experimenting with it just lately but i seem to be struggling with it a touch and the shots are not coming out all in focus.

I normally set the AI servo mode and then using just the centre AF point i focus on the subject. keeping the shutter button pressed halfway i keep the centre AF point on the jubject and track it. I shoot when ready.
Is this correct?
I notice it re focusing as the subject moves but what happens if i shoot at the point it is focusing?

Idiots guide please, im still learning.

Thanks.

[swatcop169]

I keep mine in AI Focus, it focuses on people that are standing still, then when they start moving it switched to AI Servo.

[Huckaback Photo]

Alan
Is your lens Canon lens Image Stabilised & do you turn it off for flash shots,
Also if you use flash is it trying to fire through the glass screens, if so a certain amount of light may well come back at the camera, sometimes creating exposure probs / flare etc.

Just managed to get up some images on a gallery, check them out please let me know what you think.

http://www.pbase.com/huckaback_photo/root

Cheers Martin

[Alan Dye]

Alan
Is your lens Canon lens Image Stabilised & do you turn it off for flash shots,
Also if you use flash is it trying to fire through the glass screens, if so a certain amount of light may well come back at the camera, sometimes creating exposure probs / flare etc.

Just managed to get up some images on a gallery, check them out please let me know what you think.

http://www.pbase.com/huckaback_photo/root

Cheers Martin


Martin,

No, my lens doesn't have IS (Local photo shop said it wasn't what I needed, then tried to sell me an L lens), and I'm not shooting thru any glass.

The last 2 pix were to compare the venue's and the lens that I used. We ahve practice tonight and I'm gonna try both lenses just to see how they stack up against each other.

I'll post some results later.

Thanks,
Alan

[Tom Reid]

I've been shooting hockey pictures with a 300D for about a year and a half. I first used the lens that came with the kit and like yours Alan they were okay but left room for improvement. Long story short I bit the bullet and bought a 70-200 F2.8 IS lens. The 2.8 allows me to work in low light but is a battle for depth of field, hense some shots that are "out of focus". The IS allows me to set the speed to 250 hand held and still get a photo that is in focus.

Here's what I use and I see improvements after every game so that tells me I still need more practise!!

1 - I shoot minimum 800 ISO and custom white balance using a gray card. The angle of the gray card and the overhead lights is important and in fact the best place to white balance is on the ice or as close to the ice as you can get. I'm lucky, my daughter is on the team and I'm the team photographer.

2 - I shoot at 250 with f2.8.

3 - Focus is the center point and I pan and try to get the middle dot just slightly ahead of the subject as they are moving. I installed the previously mentioned hack and tried changing the AF settings. I find the One Shot mode the best and I leave the burst shot off.

4 - Keep your hand away from the zoom when you hit the shutter button cause if you're zooming as you shoot it'll blur the image.

5 - As for RAW and JPEG, use JPEG. RAW takes to long to write to the 300D and you may miss a shot. You can manipulate a jpeg in Photoshop and get good results, specially if you save the images to a CD first for backup.

I'd attach an example but I don't know how to attach. New to this forum and about to hit the hay. Early morning departure for a weeks vacation. I'll check in when I return.

[Huckaback Photo]

Tom welcome to the forum.
for posting images on here check the sticky at the start of this section.
titled " posting images on here "

Martin

[DavidEB]

I'll second what Drisley says, and add a few minor points.

I had been shooting hockey with a 70-300mm f4, with relatively slow focus. With that lens, I ended up focusing manually. The Tamron 28-75 is also a slow-focusing lens, so it's hard to keep hockey players in focus.

After reading this forum & others, I went out and bought a sigma 70-200mm f2.8 lens, with HSM (=high speed focus). I compared it to the canon, and (to my eye) couldn't see spending the extra money for the canon.

With the new lens I have a full stop more light, so my shutter is faster, and the autofocus is faster. This makes a huge difference. Previously I got 10% good shots, last weekend I got about 80% keepers. So I'd conclude that to shoot hockey you need at least f2.8 and a fast focus mechanism (sigma HSM or canon USM).

White balance: you want the ice to look white, so use that for your white balance. Shoot an underexposed picture of the ice, use that shot to set custom white balance (from the main menu) and then select custom white balance.

Exposure: if you let the camera set the exposure, your shots will come out right sometimes, mostly underexposed (when the camera tries to meter ice) and overexposesd occasionally (when you try to meter off black hockey pants). Before the game, zoom in on faces & jerseys, take a reading, set that into your camera on "M" mode. The ice will be over-exposed. The histogram will show a mountain far to the right (ice). a lump in the middle (player) and a small hill on the left (dark stands). Adjust based only on the small hill in the middle.

AI focus -- I gave up on AI servo (rebel w/ hack) because of the issues listed in prior posts. Just be quick about completing the shutter press as soon as the red-dot comes on indicating focus. I agree about using only one center point focus.

Your position is everything. Get in the penalty box. Brace your arm against a post. Watch out for people skating into you. consider wearing a helmet.

[Tom Reid]

Thanks Martin. Got her figured out now.