Should I make this deal?

[photography by trish]

I have this opportunity to shoot an entire elementary school if I use this certain middle man, who (this shouldn't matter much) happens to be my uncle. I can't really say much about the details with the possible deal with the school, but what I can say is that the "middle man" wants 25% of the profit. He is building a marketing business and trying to use my services to do so, while giving me gigs.


Is that a fair rate for me as the photographer, considering I'm doing about 95% of the work?

I didn't think that I could have gotten that gig as quickly as he did BUT, I'm also doing a lot more than I've been used to, like: a whole school's photos, touchups on a lot of pictures, organizing orders or whatever I haven't even thought about yet. So it's gonna seem like a heavy load to me (at least for one person). I have a full day of responsibilities and this is on the side.

What would you do and why?

Thanks in advance.

[GPR1]

Have you offered him a different percentage? If you feel 25% is too high because you'll be doing the work, offer him 15 - or whatever you want. Plus, does he want 25% of the profit or of total revenue? By profit, what do you mean? It seems you and your uncle need to talk further.

Greg

[tim]

Working with family has never worked out well for me.

[photography by trish]

Have you offered him a different percentage? If you feel 25% is too high because you'll be doing the work, offer him 15 - or whatever you want. Plus, does he want 25% of the profit or of total revenue? By profit, what do you mean? It seems you and your uncle need to talk further.

Greg

I have offered him a different rate. 15% and he said since I couldn't get the gig without him, he deserves at least 20%. He wants 20-25% of the total revenue (after expenses) I am going to talk to him more, but I wanted to check around to see what other photographers feel is fair for that type of job. Like I said, I've never done such a big job before.

Working with family has never worked out well for me.

I agree. I'm actually just considering if this is a worthy gain to break that rule. I haven't really done much business with him.

[breadandbutter]

Maybe your uncle can help you out during the photoshoot. I'm pretty sure you will need an assistant. That way the 25% can be better justified.

[Dennis_Hammer]

Well there are a couple of ways to look at this. First I would try to negotiate down the commission. Second Profit is a tricky word, if you figure in how much you need to get paid and deduct that from the profit (after all salary is an expense) then his share may be smaller than you would think. And lastly, do you need the work? And would you have the other 75% if he didn't get you the job?

Good Luck of course I refuse to do business with family myself.

[photography by trish]

Maybe your uncle can help you out during the photoshoot. I'm pretty sure you will need an assistant. That way the 25% can be better justified.

good idea.

And lastly, do you need the work? And would you have the other 75% if he didn't get you the job?

Good Luck of course I refuse to do business with family myself.

I do need the work. I can't say for sure that I believe I couldn't get the job without him, but I do think he got the gig fast! If I got the gig by myself, it might have taken me much longer because I'd have to do some homework on how I'd sell myself, which he's already done.

[MJPhotos24]

Basically it sounds like having an agent/manager working for you to land gigs. Usually this is 10-15% and not 25. If he's going to be speaking for you to schools and other places to help land gigs then you need an agreement ahead of time saying how much. Not sure either of you have experience in this but 25% is too high, look around at bands, actors, artists, etc. and you'll see the norm is lower.

[tcphoto1]

Your Uncle is busting your chops and I question his desire to help you get work. I would certainly make him do something to earn the money like help you process and deliver the images. I would also put it in writing and document all expenses which will determine actual profit.

[photography by trish]

If he's going to be speaking for you to schools and other places to help land gigs then you need an agreement ahead of time saying how much. Not sure either of you have experience in this but 25% is too high, look around at bands, actors, artists, etc. and you'll see the norm is lower.

I agree on the agreement/contract part especially. I'm going to put his rate that we negotiate, terms to what expenses are, and terms for the option to do more work to get the full 25%. Did you catch anything I may have missed?

Your Uncle is busting your chops and I question his desire to help you get work. I would certainly make him do something to earn the money like help you process and deliver the images.

Got any other ideas on how he can contribute to the gig? He knows nothing about photography or editing at all.

[KAD]

You could always stick to your %, or let him know that your not interested....... he may not be so lucky finding anther photographer on his terms.

[tcphoto1]

Collect the materials needed to shoot the job ie. backgrounds, seamless, stool, props.
Help load gear to or from the location.
Sit in front of the computer on set and match names with files. This is especially useful if shooting tethered.
Help with the children get to and from the set.
Make sure the school knows where you are in the process and money is collected.
Help produce the prints or run files to the lab and pick up when finished.
Help package prints and label envelopes for delivery.
Deliver print packages to school.

I'll send you a bill for producing your job.

[Hark Photography]

IMO 25% is too high .... you should reckon 15 to 20 % however consider this

75 %or 80% of something is worht a whole lot more to you than 100% of nothing

How much time effort and money do most businesses, never mind togs spend in securing any job in the first place ... there really is a value in him getting the contract.

Do the job right and get the gig yourself next year ... use it a s a stepping stone.

And remember .... profit is only what you are lefft with after you have paid all your expenses and wages .... agree an hourly rate and calculate it including your PP time and order expedition .... 20% wont end up being as much as you think.

Forget he's your uncle ... ( he should be doing it for less as a family member) and negotiate with him as you would a business man.

Good luck with the gig

[PhotosGuy]

25% isn't bad for a pro rep that brings in work. They have expenses too. But for an uncle?
I'd offer him 10% on this job & 20% for any other work he can bring in. ;)

[ccasey]

I have offered him a different rate. 15% and he said since I couldn't get the gig without him, he deserves at least 20%.

Is this like saying "You're nothing without me"?

From the sound of this (or maybe my interpretation of it) this is not a business relationship that you want to develop. Honestly it sounds like a personal relationship that I wouldn't want to develop, but it's your family, so mostly you're stuck with them.

As others have advised, make sure you pay -the photogprapher- out of the revenue before your tally your profits. Your agent (er, uncle) may be happy getting paid on a commission-only basis, but you need to make sure that it's worth your time at all. Also you need to make sure this is spelled out in the contract which you will sign with your uncle so that should he decide to pursue a lawsuit he will have little ground to stand on.

Good luck,
Chris

[KFormus]

This is my take on it:

Your uncle is in a position to give you a paying job for a school. However, he will only give you the paying job if he receives a 'kickback'.

Sounds pretty unethical for you and your uncle, whatever his position is. He should be choosing a photographer that is best suited for the job, not based on how much money he can make off the school.

[asysin2leads]

Working with family has never worked out well for me.

Amen!

[dekalbSTEEL]

My initial reaction is, who is the decision maker at the school who agreed to a deal with a person who knows nothing about photography to arrange to photograph the students? Why would they agree to this? Wouldn't they want to meet the photographer and see his work first?

[photography by trish]

So I took everyones input into consideration and really weighed out the pros and cons. In the end, I agreed with him, to 15% before profit is calculated as well as negotiated a fair flat wage (instead of hourly). I've also smoothed out a lot of the kinks with him not knowing anything about photography. It got in the way in a lot of ways, but now that we're on the same page, things are lookin pretty good.

And for dekalbSTEEL,..Some people will hate to hear this, but sometimes it really is WHO you know. I don't blame you for noticing that and wondering about it cuz I was already wondering too. I assume my uncle won't get anymore work if he refers someone who ruins a whole job.

[photography by trish]

Oh yea,....thanks everyone for your time and input. I really appreciate you sharing your expertise.

[30DzAC]

Hi Trish,

I'm not a professional but there is no way I would demand a cut of the action if I pushed a little business my nieces way. Sure you may not have gotten the gig without him, but isn't that what family is for?

I agree with KFormus above. Good luck.

[photography by trish]

Hi Trish,

I'm not a professional but there is no way I would demand a cut of the action if I pushed a little business my nieces way. Sure you may not have gotten the gig without him, but isn't that what family is for?

I agree with KFormus above. Good luck.

i agree. i'm not sure we're going to do business again, but i'm gonna finish this one and move on. it's getting messy dealing with my family. so whenever anyone says that to you, "don't work with family," listen and RUN THE OTHER WAY! no need to find out on your own.

[tcphoto1]

That is one relative that wouldn't be invited for the holiday's.