Youth Sports Action Shots vs T&I profits?

[jdouglas003]

Every year I shoot a few team & individual shots for a few youth sports teams in my area but I am not the official league photographer (nor do I wan to be). The sports include soccer, baseball and basketball.

I get approached to shoot action shots during the game for a team that also wants me to shoot the T&I shots.

I have not figured out a way to make this a profitable endeavor for myself so I have been saying that I would be glad to shoot the T&I but not the action. Most of these teams will pass on that.

Just wondering if anyone does action and T&I and if so how do you make it worth your time to shoot the game and the posed shots for the individuals? It's like you are doing double work without any assurance that they will buy any of the actions shots.

[Tigershark]

I do both, for action shots what I have learned is shoot the stronger teams, if the team doesn't produce a lot of offense whether it be soccer or any sports it is hard to sell good numbers of pictures. Tournaments always sell better than individual games. I have found the cut off is about 13/14 for youth sports and then parents just don't want to buy anything :) Sometimes its not worth it to shoot the game, there is no gaurantee that you will sell anything but with good marketing and good pictures you are off to a good start

[rushnp774]

http://www.photoreflect.com/ is all you need to know. I know a guy who makes a lot of money doing EXACTLY what you're thinking about. He just goes and has fun, takes a bunch of pictures for a day, uploads them to his PhotoReflect account, and watches the money come in. It's free to use, but you sign up and essentially contract with a photo lab who does all the printing, and they take a percentage of every photo sold. You set the original price and the prints are cheap and nice. You should try it!

[MJPhotos24]

Ok, I have to say to rush that is completely wrong, and I don't mean any offense. The site a photog sells prints through only has an effect depending on how well you market. Maybe it's because I just seen two posts claiming that service is to blame for your friends sales, it's not. It's all about marketing, you could sell through a lot of different services and should choose the best that suits you, for your needs, but crediting that service alone is wrong. Is reflect contacting your costomers, is reflect in your community, are they putting ads in the paper, online, wherever to push sales? No, they are not, the photog is. Now, personally I think the best service is Exposure Manager, but feel I could sell as many prints through Reflect, Smuggie, etc. with the same marketing. The service has no affect on that, it just suits me best. The money though is affected on what the company charges me. EM is 10% and the rest are 15-20% so that affects me, nothing else. In short it does not affect my sales, only what I'm getting from them. To say all you need to know is this or that url is wrong because they are not out in the market promoting you.

OK, as for T&I vs. action shots it is HEAVILY dependent on where you live. I know several photogs who make a good amount selling exclusively online while others can't come close. Personally I make a lot more through T&I than I do through action shots just because the community is not computer oriented and people hate ordering online vs handing me an order form. They'll buy in a heart beat on site but not online. T&I is a good avenue to promote your action shots as well, though in some areas it just don't work. I thought at first I'd hate shooting T&I but actually enjoy it, the kids are usually pretty good to deal with and a good time throughout. I've gotten to the point where I thought about starting a company and let others shoot the T&I and I'd edit and ship just because the money is so much better than action.

So in short, T&I is where your guarnateed money is - action is spec and depending on area, how well the team does, etc. is how your sales will do. As a coach for 18 seasons I can't count the times I heard parents say "they've done so well we have to get pics" or something similar. So Tiger is right, the stronger teams do better in sales.

[bwolford]

http://www.photoreflect.com/ is all you need to know. I know a guy who makes a lot of money doing EXACTLY what you're thinking about. He just goes and has fun, takes a bunch of pictures for a day, uploads them to his PhotoReflect account, and watches the money come in. It's free to use, but you sign up and essentially contract with a photo lab who does all the printing, and they take a percentage of every photo sold. You set the original price and the prints are cheap and nice. You should try it!

Wow, who knew? Anyone can do this and make a ton of money! I gonna stop trying those TV programs for real estate investment and auction sales. My troubles are over!

MJ's post is far more accurate. Shooting on spec is NOT a good way to expect a living in this business. I've shot spec and made acceptable returns and other times returned nothing. It depends on many things. Year to year at the same events I've seen both tremendous and disappointing results. I do spec as a favor to get the T&I business. I never do it expecting it to be anything more than a door opener.

[rushnp774]

Ok, I have to say to rush that is completely wrong, and I don't mean any offense. The site a photog sells prints through only has an effect depending on how well you market. Maybe it's because I just seen two posts claiming that service is to blame for your friends sales, it's not. It's all about marketing, you could sell through a lot of different services and should choose the best that suits you, for your needs, but crediting that service alone is wrong. Is reflect contacting your costomers, is reflect in your community, are they putting ads in the paper, online, wherever to push sales? No, they are not, the photog is. Now, personally I think the best service is Exposure Manager, but feel I could sell as many prints through Reflect, Smuggie, etc. with the same marketing. The service has no affect on that, it just suits me best. The money though is affected on what the company charges me. EM is 10% and the rest are 15-20% so that affects me, nothing else. In short it does not affect my sales, only what I'm getting from them. To say all you need to know is this or that url is wrong because they are not out in the market promoting you.


Wow, who knew? Anyone can do this and make a ton of money! I gonna stop trying those TV programs for real estate investment and auction sales. My troubles are over!

Wow, I didn't realize I came across that way. I did not simply mean that if you take a million shots, put them online = instant millionaire. He has a photography business, hands out business cards at each event, really talks to the parents, and pushes his business. He also makes customized posters of the kids on large pieces of foamboard, makes prints that have the kids on baseball cards/sports game tickets/etc, which he makes a lot more money from than just the prints ordered online. It's something he's done on the side for several years and has been successful. I simply pointed to photoreflect as one site that would help jdouglas do what he wants to do.

After rereading my post, I see how it sounded, and I apologize for giving the impression that it's as easy as taking a million pictures and becoming rich.

[Mike R]

OK, as for T&I vs. action shots it is HEAVILY dependent on where you live. I know several photogs who make a good amount selling exclusively online while others can't come close. Personally I make a lot more through T&I than I do through action shots just because the community is not computer oriented and people hate ordering online vs handing me an order form. They'll buy in a heart beat on site but not online. T&I is a good avenue to promote your action shots as well, though in some areas it just don't work. I thought at first I'd hate shooting T&I but actually enjoy it, the kids are usually pretty good to deal with and a good time throughout. I've gotten to the point where I thought about starting a company and let others shoot the T&I and I'd edit and ship just because the money is so much better than action.

So in short, T&I is where your guarnateed money is - action is spec and depending on area, how well the team does, etc. is how your sales will do. As a coach for 18 seasons I can't count the times I heard parents say "they've done so well we have to get pics" or something similar. So Tiger is right, the stronger teams do better in sales.

I gotta agree. I shot my first T&I this season (Football and Cheer) I also do the action shots and have to say that the T&I, while boring, is very profitable. I have even had parents go on line and place additional orders after getting their packages. At one school, I do OK with the action shots. The parents club purchases enlargements to to give to the seniors among other things and also purchase a slide show for their banquet. The parents also place decent orders. Slide shows are also profitable. The action shots and at another school, sales are so poor that I have cut back on the games I attend.

[Chief44]

I sell through photo reflect and its not bad, you just gotta promote and get people to go and view the work. The best method Ive found is to have fliers with the site info at the ticket booth and then an assistant passing fliers out to parents. This is worked well for me to boost the action shot sales.

[MJPhotos24]

I give out info (postcard with info on back) with the T&I and interact with people at the games but it amazed me how many said they don't read the info and have no clue the action shots are on my site. This year going to try and do sales at the banquet with viewing stations, they pick and choose what they want and will deliver later.

The slide show idea isn't bad, we're doing one for the banquet but not selling any. Maybe should include that on the sales slip.

The money though, and the ease, is with T&I. But definately need to organize it pretty good - try to get all teams in one day, have an assistant unless it's only a couple teams. Stuff like that, the stuff I didn't do this year but going back to it next year for sure!

[Mike R]

.

The slide show idea isn't bad, we're doing one for the banquet but not selling any. Maybe should include that on the sales slip.



I charge the team for the slide show and allow them to make copies and sell them as a fundraiser. If they want me to make the copies, which some teams have, I charge $30.00 per copy. For the original one I charge $265 for a 20 minute show which includes running it at the banquet (Hook up the projector and laptop,position the screen, press start and enjoy the banquet.) I let it run in an endless loop for the entire banquet, usually muting it after the first run. This is my second year doing the shows. Next year I may consider raising the price.

[WillMass]

I've used PhotoReflect for about 7 years now. In the past it generated some substantial revenue. However this year online sales were noticeably lower, and image theft of watermarked thumbnails, from the site was much higher. We've since stopped posting the photos online.

Note: We self-fulfilled, and the image theft is not particular to PR. They can be stolen from any online source.

[MJPhotos24]

I charge the team for the slide show and allow them to make copies and sell them as a fundraiser. If they want me to make the copies, which some teams have, I charge $30.00 per copy. For the original one I charge $265 for a 20 minute show which includes running it at the banquet (Hook up the projector and laptop,position the screen, press start and enjoy the banquet.) I let it run in an endless loop for the entire banquet, usually muting it after the first run. This is my second year doing the shows. Next year I may consider raising the price.

I'd have to go lower in this area but something to consider. I know I'll get asked for a copy of the slide show if it's good. :) Will have to figure something out in the next week and half or so. Never done one and never did the on-site viewing/ordering we're trying at this, good ol' new adventure.

[jdouglas003]

http://www.photoreflect.com/ is all you need to know. I know a guy who makes a lot of money doing EXACTLY what you're thinking about. He just goes and has fun, takes a bunch of pictures for a day, uploads them to his PhotoReflect account, and watches the money come in. It's free to use, but you sign up and essentially contract with a photo lab who does all the printing, and they take a percentage of every photo sold. You set the original price and the prints are cheap and nice. You should try it!

Thanks for the tip but I sell through my own site and pay the percentage to Paypal.
My question was really more about marketing/selling action shots in addition to the team and individuals that I would already be doing.
Some of the other guys have addressed that issue fairly well.
Thanks to all.