Asking another photographer if I can shoot a wedding?

[musicmaster]

jjjj

[tim]

The problem with this plan is wedding days are usually very tight time-wise, so if someone approached me about this i'd say no unless extra time was set aside for it. Even then you'd have MAX 30 minutes, probably more like 10.

How about getting models to dress as a bride and groom?

[ssim]

I agree with Tim. I think that your best bet is to contact a photographer to see if you can assist/second shoot with him/her and then pitch your ideas for poses with them.

I can tell you that time for pictures is very limited in most cases and I use every last minute of that to provide lots of different options to he couple to order from. The second shooter/assistant will be of value to the main shooter during the whole wedding and not just an imposition for a short period of time as you have asked for.

[musicmaster]

It wouldnt be any time dedicated for me. I would be the one experimenting with non-standard shots. (ie. not getting in his way)

[Scott McLoud]

When i have a wedding, i have a contract drawn up with the couple that states that i am the only photographer there (i dont mind friends and family with cameras and such) but i hate when i have some idiot with a slr thinking they are the best and are a pro, getting in my road when i am trying to do my job. Ive never had one complaint from the couples yet about that.

So if you were asking me when i was doing my job, i'd say no. If however you paid me to tutor you, during models, if i had time i'd say yes.

So you might want to think about models and a mockup wedding instead of the real thing.

Bearing in mind, shooting a wedding - if you mess it up, you have ruined the big day for the couple...

[convergent]

I think you are making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be. I have taken pictures at weddings, as a guest, and never bothered the hired pro. Unless you are planning to do something really bizarre, I don't see what the difference is between you and any other guest (or the press at a celebrity wedding). I would contact the bride/groom and let them know you are a staff reporter for the college paper and that you'd like to cover their wedding as a human interest story for the paper. I would NOT explain to them that you want to "learn" at their wedding. If you are student, it should be pretty obvious to them that you are not a 25 year veteran wedding shooter. As long as you stay a "fly on the wall", it shouldn't be a problem. Let the bride/groom talk to the hired pro if needed. The hired pro will have no incentive to say "yes", of YOU went to ask their permission, because there is nothing in it for them, the way you've explained it here. Remember that you are "the press" for this assignment, not a competing wedding pro. You have a totally different purpose for being there and I would not plan to give them your pictures... that is getting the roles mixed up. It should be the bride/groom's decision on if you are permitted to cover the event. If one says no, then keep asking and I would think that you'll find at least one that is OK with it.

AND, do your homework before showing up so that you don't inadvertently do something stupid to disrupt the hired pro. Its simply a matter of understanding the flow of the event, what the pro will be trying to get done, and where you want to stay away from. It shouldn't be that tough to stay out of the way.

[musicmaster]

thanks

[heycow]

Brandon, I would add a concise explanation of what you'd want to shoot, how long you'd need, what you'd expect from Todd (might be nothing), etc. "feature photo-spread" doesn't really say anything to him, so a couple sentences would be helpful.

BTW, to "sweeten the deal" you could see if you can include a small tag for Todd in the spread so he'd be able to use it as advertising (your photos of him working).

Just my thoughts. :)

[Scott McLoud]

I would contact the bride/groom and let them know. Let the bride/groom talk to the hired pro if needed. The hired pro will have no incentive to say "yes", of YOU went to ask their permission, because there is nothing in it for them,
If i was the hired pro at this wedding, i would say no. And if the couple went ahead and said yest to him while i said no, i'd see it as a broken contract by the client and would not do the job (broken contact = no refund).

So, i'd advise the couple read through the contract agreed with the hired pro, to make sure there are no clauses like one i put in my weddings.

Like i explained, the reason i have the "no other photographers" at my shoots, is because i do not wish another person, to get in my road acting like they know everything and know nothing.

Im sure some of you will know exactly what i mean here!

[musicmaster]

Well I found out from my editor that technically we can shoot anything we want on campus, and have a legal reasoning to do so with the college, so I guess legally, the photographer can's not allow us to do it. I sent him a message, letting him know i was going to be there, but didnt ask for permission

[ssim]

I would NOT explain to them that you want to "learn" at their wedding.

You are recommending that he not be up front about what the agenda is here. I really don't think that is appropriate. Honesty is always the best path and he can certainly tell them and the working photographer that he is combining some learning while doing this article for the college rag.

Given that this is an article about weddings on the college campus would you not want to include some shots and information about the photographer. You can't simply take pictures of the bride and groom and honestly say that this is a full story of weddings using the college campus for a backdrop. If you want to get the pro onside you could tell him (and make sure that you follow through) that he will get some exposure in the publication.

[ssim]

Well I found out from my editor that technically we can shoot anything we want on campus, and have a legal reasoning to do so with the college, so I guess legally, the photographer can's not allow us to do it. I sent him a message, letting him know i was going to be there, but didnt ask for permission

Way to go in trying to work with the photographer, not!!! You are acting a little arrogant here, imo. If I was the working photographer, I would make sure that you had a hard time getting the time with the couple by continuing to shoot the poses that I want from them up to the time that we need to move on to other things in the wedding. You would be so much better to try and work with the pro but you certainly haven't illustrated that you have any intention of doing so.

[tim]

Shooting without the photographers permission you will piss him off, and you will spoil the couples photos. In this case i'd not go to the college, or if I did it would be only for a very short time. You'd have had better luck if you explained what you were doing and why, and asked permission, but not doing that I suspect you've spoiled your chances.

Wedding photography's not a game.

[musicmaster]

Way to go in trying to work with the photographer, not!!! You are acting a little arrogant here, imo. If I was the working photographer, I would make sure that you had a hard time getting the time with the couple by continuing to shoot the poses that I want from them up to the time that we need to move on to other things in the wedding. You would be so much better to try and work with the pro but you certainly haven't illustrated that you have any intention of doing so.
I'm not going for poses or anything. I thinking was more of the walking down the isle, type of thing for the paper.

And I didn't specifically ask for permission, rather explained what I was doing. Heres what I sent

[ssim]

I'm confused now, not that it takes much these days;). If you want the walking down the aisle, is this done on the college somewhere, normally it is a church. If it is a church how does that fit in to doing this article.

[tim]

You'll have confused the photographer, and since you used email you can't even be sure he got your message. In his place i'd just refuse to take photos until you buggered off. If you'd explained yourself, said you want to work around him and not get in the way, and asked permission maybe you'd get a positive response. Instead you probably will get told to get stuff.

My advice is to call the photographer, explain yourself, ask permission. If he says no don't push it, there's more weddings.

[Mike30D]

As Tim said, call the photographer and explain yourself and ask permission. Don't go showing up because you think that you can. You'll piss him off and maybe even piss off the bride and groom and you might have the police called to remove you.

Wedding photographers work their a$$es off and they don't need these kind of problems.

[thebishopp]

I think people are forgetting this main point:
"Well I found out from my editor that technically we can shoot anything we want on campus, and have a legal reasoning to do so with the college," If this is true then the police can't be called to remove him and nothing can be done by the B&G much less the hired photographer.

The fact is that as long as he doesn't get in the way of the hired photographer, and the B&G don't mind then there SHOULDN'T be a problem. Especially with the Hired Photog as they are there for different purposes.

The ONLY people he would be morally obligated to speak with is the Bride and Groom. It is their day, NOT the hired photographers.

In fact it wouldn't even be a violation of any contract which stated no other photographers because it is a situation that is technically beyond the control of the bride and groom (let me direct you to the following statement again, which if true coveres this: "we can shoot anything we want on campus, and have a legal reasoning to do so with the college" - of course you would need to verify this as the couple may have a contract with the college as we don't know if the college just says "ok" or actually rents out the property they are using).

To sum it up, I think you only really need to speak with the Bride and Groom. If they don't like the idea you can just find another couple who doesn't care (maybe you can legally do it but no reason to ruffle feathers of the B&G if there are others that don't care... remember it is THEIR day after all).

If they don't have a problem with it I wouldn't worry about it. You may wish to speak to the Hired Photographer and explain what you are doing as a COURTESY. Oh yes, and stay out of his way.

[WillMass]

Legal standing is one thing.

Tact and good manners is something else entirely.

[tim]

I think people are forgetting this main point:
"Well I found out from my editor that technically we can shoot anything we want on campus, and have a legal reasoning to do so with the college," If this is true then the police can't be called to remove him and nothing can be done by the B&G much less the hired photographer.

The fact is that as long as he doesn't get in the way of the hired photographer, and the B&G don't mind then there SHOULDN'T be a problem. Especially with the Hired Photog as they are there for different purposes.

The ONLY people he would be morally obligated to speak with is the Bride and Groom. It is their day, NOT the hired photographers.

In fact it wouldn't even be a violation of any contract which stated no other photographers because it is a situation that is technically beyond the control of the bride and groom (let me direct you to the following statement again, which if true coveres this: "we can shoot anything we want on campus, and have a legal reasoning to do so with the college" - of course you would need to verify this as the couple may have a contract with the college as we don't know if the college just says "ok" or actually rents out the property they are using).

To sum it up, I think you only really need to speak with the Bride and Groom. If they don't like the idea you can just find another couple who doesn't care (maybe you can legally do it but no reason to ruffle feathers of the B&G if there are others that don't care... remember it is THEIR day after all).

If they don't have a problem with it I wouldn't worry about it. You may wish to speak to the Hired Photographer and explain what you are doing as a COURTESY. Oh yes, and stay out of his way.

Legally you can stand outside my house and take photos all day. That doesn't mean i'm not going to call the police, or come out with a baseball bat.

Permission and co-operation are the way to do things, not by asserting your rights and being an arse. Once you learn to get along with people life will be much easier.

[thebishopp]

Legally you can stand outside my house and take photos all day. That doesn't mean i'm not going to call the police, or come out with a baseball bat.

Permission and co-operation are the way to do things, not by asserting your rights and being an arse. Once you learn to get along with people life will be much easier.

As I recall I made several points. You only addressed the one where I said that as a staff photographer for the college, if the college so allows, he can shoot anything occuring on their property.

The other point I made was that it was the Bride and Groom's day, NOT the Hired Photographer's day nor the College Staff Photographer's day.

If the B&G doesn't mind then it shouldn't be a problem. In fact, if as the Staff Photographer stated, if the B&G or one of them are alumni then they may be very pleased to be featured in their alma mater's newspaper, in fact it would be a very nice gesture on the part of the Staff Photographer to be sure the B&G got a copy of that paper. A very unique momento that can be provided at no cost to the B&G. As I recall I stated that if the B&G didn't want him there then he could find a couple that does and who wouldn't consider him being there a spot on their (the B&G's NOT the Hired Photog's) day.

Again, as long as the B&G don't mind, and he doesn't get in the way of the Hired Photographer then there is no problem other than the Hired Photographer's ego (again I wonder why this is even an issue as long as the Staff Photog doesn't interfere with his job and the B&G don't mind).

Now as far as coming outside of your house with a baseball bat... you speak of learning to get along with people and you make an arsenine statement like that? While the chest thumping is amusing (given my background - see I can chest thump too - though I think I was a bit more sublte lol) I don't think it is really appropriate and does nothing but serve to swing this thread off topic.

Since I've just addressed your hypocrisy let me address the fact that we are speaking of two different situations.

Now if you wish to address the situation of someone standing outside your home on public property taking pictures of your house and then you coming outside with a baseball bat we can do so.

Of course different factors and scenarious would have to be presented.... for example, what was the reason they were doing so? are you a criminal under investigation? is it a stalker or harasser doing so? is it someone who just likes how your house looks and wants to build one just like it? PI investigating your for workmans comp fraud? etc. etc...

Then we can address the appropriateness of your response... which as you stated, was to immediately call the police and/or (you weren't specific if it was one or the other or both) you would come out with a baseball bat and .... what? again not specific, do you threaten them? or do you ask what they are doing? Very important distinction as one is merely the inquiry and the other could be deemed a criminal act (again dependant upon the reaons the photographer has to be on public property, or even if he has to give a reason based on the laws of the jurisdiction you both happen to be in).

Police would probably ID the fellow, may ask a few questions, but barring any wants or warrants they probably would let him continue.

Perhaps you hit him with the bat and then go to jail for assault with a deadly weapon - a felony in most U.S. states BTW and does not have to occur in the officers's presence in order to be arrested on the spot.

If it is your intention to get violent then it would be better for you to use your hands.

In fact threatening him could wind you charged with a misdemeanor offense of terroristic threatening or intimidation (again depending upon the particular laws in the jurisidiction you both happen to be in)...

IMHO though such a discussion should be reserved for another thread... maybe entitled "What would you do if an unknown photographer was standing in front of your house snapping pics?"

[tim]

Oh come on, I was exaggerating to make a point.

[thebishopp]

Oh come on, I was exaggerating to make a point.

Lol, I figured as much (hoping so anyway) but it was fun to address it. Let's not get too serious here :-)

On a side note my intention was to help illustrate a point as well (though in the roundabout fashion I do so enjoy lol).

[musicmaster]

All right, well Just to clarify, I got the permission of the bride (who was pretty excited to be featured in the paper 10 years after she graduated), and was just trying to let the photographer know of my intentions.

[tim]

It's polite to ask, not tell, especially since the bride will have signed a contract with the photographer that will probably give them permission to pack up and go home if another photographer starts taking photos.

[thebishopp]

All right, well Just to clarify, I got the permission of the bride (who was pretty excited to be featured in the paper 10 years after she graduated), and was just trying to let the photographer know of my intentions.

Lol... figured the alumni would be jazzed. Now just don't intefere with the Hired Photogs shots and it will be a great day for all. Again I don't see how it is any of the hired help's business as long as it doesn't intefere with the purpose they were hired for. If anything, as long as you pay attention to what you are doing, you would be less of an inteferrence than the many family members with P&S cameras snapping away.

Again, it isn't the HP's day, it is the B&G's day. Let the HP get married on his/her own time and dime (or divorced and remarried or have a renewal ceremony or whatever) if he/she wants their own special day that they can ban college staff photographers from showing up at... as well as banning all the family members with P&S's.

I must say it would be pretty selfish of the HP to walk on a wedding because a college news staff photog will be present and didn't ask his/her permission. But then again it is a special day for the Hired Photographer and it is only right the HP dictate how that day is to be remembered LOL. Good lesson though to be sure to get a feel of if your HP is a jerk as well as the terms of any contract you sign when you choose or if you choose to get married.


Back to the subject of inteferring... let me mention an experience:

Just got back from Kauai and my cousins wedding. They hired a photog from the wedding but not for the reception so I shot for them there (the reception). During the ceremony I shot some but was always out of the way of the HP (hired photog).

After the ceremony the HP was trying to do some formal set ups and I noticed that while the HP was taking the formals the subjects had difficulty looking directly at the HP. In fact I noticed that the subjects were looking at the various people piggybacking on the HP's formal set ups.

While I couldn't really do anything about the other family members (some from the groom's side who I didn't know) I just stopped taking pics so as to not interferre and contribute to the problem. I politely pointed this out to several others with P&S's contributing to the problem and I hope the HP got some useable shots out of the formal set ups (I looked at some of the "piggyback" shots of some relatives P&S's and the subjects eyes were looking all over the place).

The point is that you have to be aware of what is going on around you and how your presence or actions may inteferre (whether it is at a wedding or in everyday life). In the case of a wedding this is especially important. As a guest you are morally obligated to help ensure a special day (by not acting foolishly). As the hired help (this includes the "hired" wedding photographer) your job is more of a contractual obligation (as you received financial compensation) to ensure a special day in the area of expertise you were hired for.

[RobNYC]

What if that "idiot" with a SLR IS a pro and one of the best. I mean you don't want anyone in your way no matter who they are, but that "idiot" could be anyone, including you if you were a guest at a wedding.

[quote=Scott McLoud;6534454] but i hate when i have some idiot with a slr thinking they are the best and are a pro, getting in my road when i am trying to do my job. Ive never had one complaint from the couples yet about that.

[ssim]

There has to be someone in charge of the wedding pictures and I can guarantee you that it is not going to be the bride and groom. That is why they hire us and if I have to exercise some control that might have some PO factor with people, so be it.

It amazes me how people come on here and like to flame other photographers that they saw at weddings or other events.

After the ceremony the HP was trying to do some formal set ups and I noticed that while the HP was taking the formals the subjects had difficulty looking directly at the HP. In fact I noticed that the subjects were looking at the various people piggybacking on the HP's formal set ups.
This is why I step aside and tell everyone to get their shots in but when I step back in I expect them to be gone. May sound a little harsh but I always do it with the wedding party's blessing and it does provide a better opportunity for the guests to get the shots without feeling like they had to steal a shot here and there. I also have a direct chat with the wedding party before the wedding telling them that I am their primary focus and their eyes should be on me if they want to have acceptable wedding shots. I also give this to the wedding party along with the contract that they sign so there is no confusion about what each others expectations.

I don't know how many weddings you have done as the primary shooter but I can tell you that it is alot of work and I want every possible minute that I can get with the wedding party. Quite frankly I doubt the alumni would care one way or the other.

This thread was supposed to be about one photographer wanting to get the blessings of the primary shooter to follow him/her around while they are on campus. I still haven't seen an answer whether this wedding was all on the campus or just part of it. I think he has been answered by many saying that simply sending an email essentially saying "Guess what, I'm going to be there, like it or lump it".

[Scott McLoud]

What if that "idiot" with a SLR IS a pro and one of the best. I mean you don't want anyone in your way no matter who they are, but that "idiot" could be anyone, including you if you were a guest at a wedding.

[quote=Scott McLoud;6534454] but i hate when i have some idiot with a slr thinking they are the best and are a pro, getting in my road when i am trying to do my job. Ive never had one complaint from the couples yet about that.
If he was a pro, then he would know how to conduct himself in the correct mannor and not get in my road and would know how to communicate with me. Plus, if he was a pro, he would know that another pro has been hired (does not make sence to hire a pro when you have one in friends/family), and a contract is in place so would also know that.

Fact is, if any idiot gets in my road, the B&G's day could be spoiled. That would not be my fault, but the fault of the idiot in the road, so that is why after asking for him to sit down (and he has not) i woudl refuse to do the wedding, leave as they have broken the contract and let him take them. Not my fault if his shots are rubbish.

Why should my reputation be broken because of this? It has only happened once i will say, and when i explained to the couple why i was packing up, they told the guest to sit down (after i did) and i continued.

[WillMass]

As I said above: Legal standing is one thing.

Tact and good manners is something else entirely.

Meaning; You may have the legal right, in the eyes of the school, to photograph the wedding. But to announce your intentions as fact rather than seeking the HP's approval, is simply discourteous.

Building bridges early in your career is much smarter than burning them, and can come back to you in the form of job referrals, references, even work as an additional shooter.

Also, make sure the paper has an adequate liability policy that covers you, in the event you inadvertently do something to ruin the big day.