Ever get the idea....

[woodsters]

...that when it comes to G&N photos that peoples C&C are swayed by thinking of the wrong head? I'm not calling anyone out particularly and i'm not making a big stink about it, but it seems to be a pattern going on. I will use freddycr as a example and only as an example to get my point across. Now we all know that Freddy's pictures are nearly perfect all the time. The lighting, the posing, the flawless models with the perfect bodies. To be honest with you, I really don't open up but maybe 25% of his postings (sorry freddy), because I know how they are going to be and that there is really nothing to add. Now every once in a while freddy does things like the rest of us do. There are some mistakes or some pictures which are not his best. Which does make me feel better sometimes. But even those infrequent "mistakes" do not get the same feedback as opposed to Joe Schmoe who's model is not perfectly shaped. And then you can add a naked factor in there too. Which leads me to believe they are afraid of freddy, afraid of hurting his feelings or aren't getting past the boobs and buttocks that are glorified in his pictures. I mean freddy could take a polaroid of his models and post it and he would still get praises. Joe Schmoe could have a picture a chick that doesn't have a perfect body and yet get creamed on C&C. And then when you would look at the problems that they find with Joe Schmoe's pic, freddy would have the same thing (not very often though) and yet everyone thinks it's perfect. Like I said, it's not just on freddy. I used him as an example probably because he is known as probably the best on the forum. But, I have seen similar things with other talented photographers on here as well.

Which makes me think, that many on here are not thinking to clearly with the right head. Do people on here have double standards?

[ueb0258]

I'm with you woodsters. I know that a lot of the times my work is not the best in the world and I am looking for honest critiques but I feel that just doesnt happen a lot around here. I have gotten to know CharlesU on here personally over the past year or so since my wife has been working with him and if I have a shot that I or my wife is happy about she usually sends it over to him or I will shoot him one every once in a while to get a critique. I know I can trust that he will be open and honest with me. He has actually helped me greatly in the last year by critiquing photos for me. On the other hand I usually am not happy with about 90% of what I shoot. I am my own worst critic since my wife seems to like more of them than I do.

[hawk911]

Brian, you musta read some of my post on the support discussion. That's most of my wife's problem; i have to shoot the pretty girls to get comments, yet the pretty girls make her feel inadequate. I know the 2 shouldn't be related, but we all know they are when you have a significant other involved in your life.

I struggle to post new pics because I get 2-4 comments, then the thread dies a quick, yet painful death.

[woodsters]

so we are in agreement it has turned towards a mens magazine attitude...

[hawk911]

I had to try to make the arguement for photography, but as my wife says "it's about the model." It's hard to disagree with her

[Mark_Cohran]

Gentlemen, while I understand your concerns, I would suggest that your perceptions are somewhat colored by your own circumstances.

If you enjoy glamour photography and the only way you're allowed to indulge in it is by shooting your wives, then you should do so and disregard whatever anyone else in the forums might say. Yes, there are a number of photographers here that get comments and praise on every image they post, but for the most part they've been doing this for some time, have an outstanding body of work, and extensive experience in lighting and working with various models. In short, they had to learn too. Now, they consistently post outstanding images and have built a reputation on the forum.

I assure you it's not just the look of the models that determine the amount of critique you receive. I've posted a number of images here with some very lovely models and got ripped pretty hard - it just goes with the territory. I assume your participation in these forums is to share your images so that you can learn from others and improve your techniques. In that case, the more critique the better. It's certainly helps me when I approach it from that perspective.

[ueb0258]

Mark I believe that all of us understand what you are saying but the point is that is not what happens. From what I have seen unless the model is of "model" standards a lot of time noone will post and critique at all. It just seems that if the model isnt good enough for some that it isnt worth their time to post about the photography. I will admit that I do not post many comments as I am but a newb when it comes these waters but if I see something that is glaringly bad in an image I will make a comment. Most of the time I am beaten to the punch by one of the other more talented posters on the board so I see no need to recomment on the same things someone else has hence there are not a ton of posts by me in this regard. I think most of us that have a concern have no problem getting ripped hard. Hell I look forward to getting a good ripping on my images so that I can learn and gives me insight into what I need to look for the next time but for some that doesnt happen due to the "model" and yet others get ripped for the "model" and not the photography.

[Mark_Cohran]

... yet others get ripped for the "model" and not the photography.

And should that happen, you can redirect the thread back to the photographic aspects of the image, or if you don't feel comfortable doing that, use the triangular "Report" button on the left side of the post and the moderator's will do it for you.

[René Damkot]

I've seen lots of "Stunning" comments on very average shots.
Not just in G&N, but throughout POTN.

I've also seen shots critiqued for what's photographed, without looking at *how* it's photographed. (apart from maybe looking at what lens was used :rolleyes:)

Then there is the category of technically good, but "poor in content" images.

IMO, the best you can do is probably treat others as you'd like to be treated: Critique the images, not just on tech stuff, but also on content & "impact". Hope you are setting a trend ;)

Personally, I'd rather look at a gorgeous shot of an average model then an average shot of a gorgeous model.

[woodsters]

Gentlemen, while I understand your concerns, I would suggest that your perceptions are somewhat colored by your own circumstances.

If you enjoy glamour photography and the only way you're allowed to indulge in it is by shooting your wives, then you should do so and disregard whatever anyone else in the forums might say. Yes, there are a number of photographers here that get comments and praise on every image they post, but for the most part they've been doing this for some time, have an outstanding body of work, and extensive experience in lighting and working with various models. In short, they had to learn too. Now, they consistently post outstanding images and have built a reputation on the forum.

I assure you it's not just the look of the models that determine the amount of critique you receive. I've posted a number of images here with some very lovely models and got ripped pretty hard - it just goes with the territory. I assume your participation in these forums is to share your images so that you can learn from others and improve your techniques. In that case, the more critique the better. It's certainly helps me when I approach it from that perspective.


I beg to differ Mark. It's not from our own circumstances. I know I'm no where talented as many on the board. I know I can be one day, given the same equipment. It's not about those of us who shoot our wive's by any means. Although there may be some comparison to the fact that our wives may not look like some of the models that are shot and posted in the forum. I think i mentioned using the freddy example that nearly every picture of his is perfect. But there are times when he does screw up or posts a picture that has similar flaws of another poster that got ripped apart. Like I stated, either they are afraid to say somethign about it or they have blinders on in the shape of big round breasts. Just because 99% of ones pictures are normally flawless ( and lot of that does go to the model), does not constitute a praise on the ones that fall into the other 1%. Are they not due the proper C&C? Using freddy again on one of his last ones of the girl in the tub. First thing I see (from my amateur eye) is how the suds in the tub are totally blown out (and can remember some sheets in other photos a little while back as well) and how the ring is washed out in one photo as well. How do I notice it right off? Because I was quickly educated before on here. I've done it many times and sometimes on the shot it's hard to get it not to be that way when doing PP work. On that thread, praise after praise about how they are perfect. I mentioned about the whites being blown and I get a "are you crazy" and "it's your monitor" thing. Thankfully another poster sees the same thing and says so. But then it continues on with the praise. I say they are great pictures. Still better than what I can do. I give praise where it is due. But Seeing the flaw that I saw and I stated, if I posted a picture of my wife (who is less attributed than his models and more of a mom looking lady) with the same thing, 99% of the remarks would be about the flaw. I would get some remarks from some fellow friends on here that might photograph their wife that are positive. Freddy is not the culprit by any means. He is just an example of what I see, and apparently a few others now that are at least willing to speak up about it publically, of how the forum goes. ueb mentioned about the amount of posts. It's true. I've had others tell me the same thing. There are certain ones that are up some of the guys butt so far, that they can't see reality from there. Now while I like to look at a nice set of boobs and nice round butt, I keep it to myself. It's obvious that many of the guys can't and are here to "read the latest issue of the mens magazine".

I haven't posted a single pic in a while now. So I've had time not to reflect on my own perspective coming from my photos, but to sit back and watch somewhat. And all this has really come apparent. It's like when they say the blind can hear better. Well I can see better now.

[Mark_Cohran]

It is an interesting observation that you make, Brian, and I'm certain that it does have some degree of merit. However, the human nature being what it is and the internet magnifying that effect to some extent, you're going to get the folks who just like to look at the models at not admire the photographic techniques. That's one of the reasons that we have the access rules for posting in the G&N forums and why it's such a big deal to get early access.

But, as René noted, it's not just in the G&N forums where you see this effect. In virtually all the forums you will find a few photographers who post images that seem to always achieve praise and where flaws are overlooked because they are able to find exceptionally photogenic subjects, be it a landscape, a bug, or a motorcycle.

Sometimes you just have to take what you can get and learn from what folks are willing to tell you. While we can moderate off-color comments, discipline problem posters, and encourage everyone to stay on topic (the photograph and not the model), human nature isn't going to change. I understand where you're coming from, but I think you have the more mature perspective of understanding there glamour in every model and it's up to the photographer to show it.

[Toblerone]

Brian, obviously being a girl, I've noticed a couple of the same things myself.

As far as your wife goes -- pls do continue to develop your technique and post pictures of her and pls do not make the mistake of cofusing perfection (are you kidding me??) with good PP skills. The so perceived perfect "model" ladies are nowhere near perfect, I can assure you ...nobody is, this should go without saying, I'm surprised that I am typing this. The liquify tool, among many others, does magic. Please keep in mind that wrinkles are removed, dimples are erased and so forth.

[hawk911]

Mark, I have to agree with Brian that most comments lately are less related to the photographic elements as they are the cosmetic/aesthetic elements. Look at my last post of Brandie (headshot). There's been some comments on crop, but also some comments on her looks, if you read between the lines. In any forum on this site, I try to say what I like or don't on the images presented; composition, processing, use of location, etc. I try VERY HARD not to comment on the subject's cosmetic value to the image.

Sorry for venting, but this is a subject that's got more reach into my own photography than you might imagine.

[woodsters]

Brian, obviously being a girl, I've noticed a couple of the same things myself.

As far as your wife goes -- pls do continue to develop your technique and post pictures of her and pls do not make the mistake of cofusing perfection (are you kidding me??) with good PP skills. The so perceived perfect "model" ladies are nowhere near perfect, I can assure you ...nobody is, this should go without saying, I'm surprised that I am typing this. The liquify tool, among many others, does magic. Please keep in mind that wrinkles are removed, dimples are erased and so forth.

Thanks and don't worry, I haven't stopped taking photos. I'm just choosing not to post them here for the time being. I don't want to get caught up in the thought of ruining those peoples days who thinks some guys post too many pictures of their wives...lol

I haven't played with the liquify tool...please pm more about it!

[hawk911]

Brian- it's under the adjustment filters. I find it's best to use the marquee tool first to select the area for adjustment, and then pick the liquify tool. You can nudge stuff one way or the other.

[woodsters]

ahh ok... i see what it is now...good for liposuction

[hawk911]

cheaper, anyway.

[towersinthesky]

Your right. People look at a model that is not quite perfect and because they might not be attracted to her they then don't pay attention to her and break the photo down. They see a perfect model and are attracted and don't even think about the technical side.

[Kagemaru]

What do you guys expect? The G&N form us trolled by 99% GWCs. The only reason Freddy's pics get so much comments and praise, is because all of his models show nothing but ass.. surely not on his technical proficiency.

[woodsters]

What do you guys expect? The G&N form us trolled by 99% GWCs. The only reason Freddy's pics get so much comments and praise, is because all of his models show nothing but ass.. surely not on his technical proficiency.


I've actually been disappointed in some of his latest wrokings...they are truly not up to the par in which he has achieved...but people still rave...and we know it's not on technical stuff...it's all the model...

[Kagemaru]

I've actually been disappointed in some of his latest wrokings...they are truly not up to the par in which he has achieved...but people still rave...and we know it's not on technical stuff...it's all the model...

Well, I think Freddy has found a formula that works. Identical lighting, hot models and lots of skin.

[Toblerone]

What do you guys expect? The G&N form us trolled by 99% GWCs. The only reason Freddy's pics get so much comments and praise, is because all of his models show nothing but ass.. surely not on his technical proficiency.

what's a GWC?

[ueb0258]

Guy With Camera. Basically someone who just wants to get girls naked so he can see them naked and uses the camera as a front.

[Toblerone]

Guy With Camera. Basically someone who just wants to get girls naked so he can see them naked and uses the camera as a front.

ahhh, gotcha. thanks :)

[Mark_Cohran]

Guy With Camera. Basically someone who just wants to get girls naked so he can see them naked and uses the camera as a front.

Usually found advertising on Craig's List. :)

[ueb0258]

Usually found advertising on Craig's List. :)

Some can be found on OMP at times as well. Usually easy to tell by their work.

[Mark_Cohran]

Some can be found on OMP at times as well. Usually easy to tell by their work.

Or Model Mayhem. They are everywhere. I wouldn't use quality of work as the final arbiter, though. Everyone has to start somewhere and many photographers with good intentions don't have an extensive portfolio when they're just starting out.

[ueb0258]

Or Model Mayhem. They are everywhere. I wouldn't use quality of work as the final arbiter, though. Everyone has to start somewhere and many photographers with good intentions don't have an extensive portfolio when they're just starting out.


I agree but it is usually a good tip off. I know when my wife started her OMP site that she was constantly sent messages by what seemed to be GWC's. Usually their work showed it first but further emails soon would show initial impressions were correct. Happily CharlesU was happy to work with her and now is pretty much her only photog besides myself.

[Toblerone]

Or Model Mayhem. They are everywhere. I wouldn't use quality of work as the final arbiter, though. Everyone has to start somewhere and many photographers with good intentions don't have an extensive portfolio when they're just starting out.

Yeah, I think I'm familiar with the type.

Hilarious...but it's also kinda sad so many girls fall for that. Or at least I find it a bit sad.

I started a model profile on MM, but linked back to my photographer profile and made it quite obvious. As expected, most cheeseball photographers in my area are avoiding me like the plague. Priceless! :lol:

[Mark_Cohran]

Yeah, I think I'm familiar with the type.

Hilarious...but it's also kinda sad so many girls fall for that. Or at least I find it a bit sad.

I started a model profile on MM, but linked back to my photographer profile and made it quite obvious. As expected, most cheeseball photographers in my area are avoiding me like the plague. Priceless! :lol:

On Model Mayhem, I've found it useful to provide a list of the models I've worked with along with their MM ID# so when I place a casting call or if a model inquires about working with me, they can contact the previous models for references.

[Toblerone]

On Model Mayhem, I've found it useful to provide a list of the models I've worked with along with their MM ID# so when I place a casting call or if a model inquires about working with me, they can contact the previous models for references.

I do the same and I have heard on numerous occassions from models that they have spoken to a girl I had already had a shoot with before setting anything up with me.

It's amazing how fast word spreads on there.


At the same time, though, I have heard a lot of stories about poor results, disappointing images, creepy photogs, etc. So not everybody's doing their homework.

[woodsters]

I think there will always be those type around and the bad thing is that they may have pretty good skills. What better "cover" could there be to get a girl scantily clad or even naked? Then you have pictures to remember it all by.

That's why it's good to photograph your wife. You can be as creepy as you wanna be and she would be mad if you didn't have those motives...lol

[ueb0258]

The other good thing is its not a bad thing if you get turned on by the wife.

[hawk911]

Unfortunately, when you look at the forum all the time for inspiration, it can be taken that you're looking for sexual inspiration and not just technical inspiration.

[woodsters]

Which brings it all around full circle to the fact that maybe some are here just for the girls....

[Old Fart]

and triggers another line of thought.............

Can, even unwittingly, creativity become jaded when limiting one's self to only 1 model ?

[woodsters]

and triggers another line of thought.............

Can, even unwittingly, creativity become jaded when limiting one's self to only 1 model ?

i think it depends...having one model is not really an issue in the point here. Sometimes that is all you have. But, yes you have to work on creativity with one model. And then still you may be limited. Heck you could have limits even if you had 100 models.

[Mark_Cohran]

and triggers another line of thought.............

Can, even unwittingly, creativity become jaded when limiting one's self to only 1 model ?

I don't know that shooting just one model limits your creativity, but I can say when I work with different models, I come up with new concepts and ideas for shots which are based on the model's particular look and personality.

[Kagemaru]

and triggers another line of thought.............

Can, even unwittingly, creativity become jaded when limiting one's self to only 1 model ?

Yes. That is the reason I always work with different models. Rarely the same model twice. Different light set up every time too.

[Michael_Lambert]

I find alot of the time that well, Honesty the work is not up to par even if using the same model over and over again and the first poster can nail it leaving noting else for anyone else to say. :(

While I don't see an issue with shooting the same model being that is all you have i think changing it up abit might help keep people interested in your model .

Woodster for example your work has come along way shooting your wife but you seem to allways shot the same style.. her in her underware.. maybe dress her up. I would have to say that i love G&N and while i love to see a nude body male or female i love to see some of the classy outfits to leaving something for my imagination.

When it comes to freddy, While maybe many look to his shots for the very attractive women i must say that i often find my self drawn to his backgrounds, when he does the shots in the jungle, the bar seens that sort of stuff.

[ueb0258]

I have to agree with you Michael I love Freddy's backgrounds as well.

[Mark1]

One thing for me anyway. When I do mention stuff to critique, I keep in mind who I am critiquing. If a person is new, I will point out everything I see that could be better. I am not "tearing them to shreads". I am just pointing out things they need to keep an eye on. If I am posting a crit on someone with the level of Freddy ( since he was already mentioned) There is not much I can say to help him. Most likely he has already seen what I will point out. And he has a proven track record of doing top notch work. One slip is not really a problem. However back to a newbie.... if they keep doing the same mistakes, or keep overlooking details, I will be a bit more harsh to point out they need to pay more attention to everything in the shot.

That said. I agree with the above. I have gotten rather bored with freddys work. But that is on me, not him. I know he has technically superior work. And I will not take that away from him. What bores me is the drapes as a background in so many shots. But I HATE back drops anyway. Nothing kills a shot for me faster than a muslin or any other fabric as a background. For me no matter how good the shot is, it is a tosser if it has a cloth background.

[woodsters]

Michael, I agree that most of our pictures are of the same sort, in lingerie...same as freddy, except he does have a lot with less clothing (which my wife is not willing to do so much). Of course he has multiple backgrounds to shoot with, he's a professional. But even with that, most of his shots are with paper backgrounds or with cloth background as the above poster mentioned. We do at least keep it real, we have a bedroom setting for the most part where she is wearing lingerie (normally where women wear their lingerie). Of course, once again, there is a limitation. We have to take our pics when we can and that normally means late at night and in the confines of a closed door bedroom. We both work full time and commute 45 minutes to over an hour each way to work. We work opposite schedules and then the kid factor. The only time we really get to spend any time with each other is the weekend. But the intent of this thread was not comparing myself to people like freddy. I have given him kudos for his work. It really was of no intent of comparing myself with anyone. I was not really including myself in this thread when I started it. Did I see some of these things when i used to post pics? Sure. But it became more evident recently when sitting back and watching others. And I'm not talking about people like freddy vs. the newbie. There are some seriously talented people on here that do goof once in a while (including freddy). The difference is, is that some of the others do get criticised more so than the others. And then those who criticise, need not really to. Especially using the phrase about throwing bricks in a glass house. So where does the photo sharing/critiquing line begin and end? Are people like freddy with the perfectly looking models sharing, while the less talented is up for critiquing? And I disagree that because someone of his caliber (normally) slips up every once in a while should not be critiqued the same as others.

Like I said it really appears a trend towards certain types of models on here or certain types of works. Either people are afraid to speak up or they don't really care.

[Michael_Lambert]

Well i have had sucess getting the replies and the input needed using different types of models from my wife who is larger to amanda who has no fat :D

while i am sure we have alot of people who just browse through the G&N looking for a cheap thrill, hell sometimes its me :D

I do know we have alot who do look at the technical aspects of the images and often threads are over run easy. I know myself i miss alot of the G&N Stuff only because i dont actully go in to that forum i tend to allways click on the "new post" on the home page and tend not to go back more than a couple of pages only becuase i am typically over whelmed with what i get on the first couple of pages.

[Mark1]

Are people like freddy with the perfectly looking models sharing, while the less talented is up for critiquing? And I disagree that because someone of his caliber (normally) slips up every once in a while should not be critiqued the same as others.



I didnt say he should not be critiqued differently. I said he probably already knows the problems, before I can say anything. Yet he puts them up anyway. Others put up problem shot after problem shot and dont seem to take any advice. And they are not really critiqued any harder, there is just more problems to point out.

But it is a thing (what ever you want to call it) on the web where everybody is way nicer or way harder on people than they would be in real life. Personally I ignore all of the " good shots" and the " that sucks" as neither is a critique, its an opinion. You cant learn anything from an opinion. However if you tell me my shot sucks ( or is great).... then tell me why, I will listen all night. And learn from it.

[woodsters]

Altohugh he already knows his problems, there are times its the same problem, just as with someone of less caliber that posts pictures with the same problems...Granted the less caliber photographer might be at his/her limits (equipment/knowledge) for the time being.

I think freddy's tag says it all "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"...ones fortune is another mans trash...I think we all have to remember that. I think we also need to know more of a persons capabilities and progress before ripping them a new one. Once again, I think there is prejudicism towards some and willful onslaught towards others... And I do believe it does have somethings to do with models as well....

[BJWOK]

as a newbie to photography (and glamour for that matter) i've copped a fair few comments of the same nature (urging me to get a hairlight going) and i have taken them all as constructive. i'm not sure how long i will still get these comments as I am making attempts to shoot away from the black background, thus eliminating the need for the hair light.

i thank all who have posted on my threads, because that is why i am posting: to get better!

[Mark1]

I agree with you. I do not look at all of his posts any more. But if anybody does post the same problems over and over, you are right, they should be called on it. If for no other reason the to make sure they know about it. And are able to understand why we think it is a problem. (wether it really is or not)

You are right as well we never know the limitations of each other. As you pointed out equipment, time, model, know how, they are all limits we dont know about. But over and over people post an image that is almost average, as if it is a great shot. Then 10 posts later all of a sudden, when it gets critqued badly, all of the things that went wrong with the shoot come out..... "Well I only had 2 minutes to shoot, and I had to hold My AB in my right hand, while standing on one foot on a rock, while shooting behind my back with a slow shutter speed as a bee stung me in my eye......." If it was that hard of a shoot tell us up front, dont use it as excuse after people tell you it is not good. Many many threads went bad because of this. Had they said it up front it probably would have been a positive thread. Poeple might have replyed with a " not bad for the situation, Hope the eye gets better." In short if you have any kind of limitation tell it up front. You might just get advice on how to over come the problem. Limitation is not an excuse for after the fact.

As we all know (I hope) there is no one way to do anything in Photo. And for the most part when you are told you did it wrong. It is only an opinion.

Looking back I do see what you are saying about the favoritism with the replys. I just dont pay attention that much to them-- onless they are replys to my images. I judge the images for myself. I often dissagree with the consensus on an image. Good or bad.

[thekid24]

But, as René noted, it's not just in the G&N forums where you see this effect. In virtually all the forums you will find a few photographers who post images that seem to always achieve praise and where flaws are overlooked....

I will agree to that, certainly those kind of comments arent restricted to just the G&N forum.

Personally, that kind of outlook is very apparent to me on this forum, many will critique somones photos for one thing and either

-not take into account that their own photography has the same flaws and become defensive when they are pointed out

-or pass up on giving the same comments to someone that has more of a reputation here.

With as many members as POTN has there will undoubtedly be just as many conflicting opinions which will result it many "right ways".

Of course there isnt a right or a wrong way, the best thing to do when becoming bothered by this is to just step away for a bit. Ive thought the same thing, and I found it better to just take a break from POTN, clear my mind and come back later. As opposed to bickering with members and thus creating the possibility of being banned.

I dont want to dislike this place because there are people who think they know it all and make it obvious in their posts.

Ive learned a great deal from here and am grateful, Ive just become weary of everyone that comments on my photos, I have a group of members that I feel can deliver critisizm the way I would like for it to be delivered and therefore will take their word over a person whos attitude is "do it this way do it that way"

For the most part I will say "try this" or "try that" therefore to follow my upbringing, "treat others as you want to be treated" I like to have the same said to me. I dont like to be ordered, just suggested, given another option of doing things.

Ya cant satisfy everyone;)

[symes]

Woodster,

You've used Freddy as an example and suggested his shots are almost always perfect...to be honest aside from his on location work (which I love and find exceptionally creative), his studio work bores me to tears...It's the same thing time in a again...T&A and the legs are almost always open...it's a genre and that's fine but I don't bother opening his posts anymore except by mistake...While there is a lot to critique in his images, he rarely pays attention to it and it's more of a picture post for him to share the latest woman he's had in front of the lens and that's an outlet for this forum but it doesn't teach me anything...

Having said that...I honestly found that your shots were also very similar as well...always in some sort of undergarment selection with real world backgrounds that were never used to the best of their abilities...There was a lot of critique thrown your way...

While I realize this isn't open season to critique the world, the glamour section and to be honest glamour photography was great when I first started and it really helped me learn basic lighting - I'm less excited about it now...

I'm more inclined to enjoy the beauty of some people's work on there (there have been some really impressive artistic nudes lately etc...), say my piece on the lovely shots and not bother offering my 2 cents on those who could care less for it...

Sure people on here are blind to beauty when they see it and they are likley thinking with the wrong heads when they pounce and say "Perfection again Freddy." Take it for what it is, avoid the posts that want to make you pull your hair out and try to learn from the truly creative minds we do have around here...

Cheers,

[woodsters]

Once again, this is all going off track...it has nothing really to do with the photographer. It has to do with selective C&C and hypocrisy from many on here. Let me say this again...this has nothing to do with my photography at all. If it did, then I would of cried and said something when I was posting my pictures. This is all an interpretation in which I have gathered since I stopped posting them. Was it happening before, yes, and it might of included my photos as well, but I did not see it as well then...

[sparker1]

I'm hearing a lot of sour grapes here. Those who say Freddy's photos are good only or mostly because of the models are just plain wrong, and are probably motivated by jealousy. Of course his shots are sometimes flawed, and he has never been defensive when the flaws are pointed out. But, he does maintain an extremely high photographic quality that would make any model look good. His skill is what attracts such beautiful models.

I agree that some of the better photographers (any genre) can get by on reputation, but only for a short time. Not every shot by Ansel Adams was equally good with his best, but everyone ignores poor performance only for a while. Continued flaws will quickly bring one down.

Personally, I have never shot a G&N and never will. Still, I admire the work of good photographers regardless of subject. I do not feel qualified to offer suggestions to the "masters". I like to encourage them by commenting when I like something, but usually keep my mouth shut when I don't.

[Coastwatch203]

I must admit that like Stan I personally find it a lot easier to comment on photography I like rather than on something with multiple flaws. (- these flaws are of course IMHO.)

But I am certainly not scared to politely suggest things i myself may have tried to improve a picture. No matter who the OP is.

I do agree with woodsters that many more favorable CC's are left for the big names here on POTN, - but at the same time many of these comments are left by photographers whos work (personal galleries etc) are at a level that maybe makes it understandable that obvious technical flaws in photos are missed?

A lack of knowledge? The level of that particular photog? mmm,,, we are all at different levels in this game, and i have to say that personally I take far more notice of some critiques than others.

Nothings worse than being critiqued by someone "that doesn't know that they don't know..." I just ignore these sort of CC's. But the valuable critiques I personally have received with every post here on POTN have allowed me to improve in a huge way.
Comments on my last post from some of you guy's are fantastic, encouraging, and offer tips to improve which i take on.

Its a big ocean out there in POTN, lots of Sharks, cat fish, whales and mullets, - It doesn't take long to learn who to trust.

Its not the quantity of CC's, - its the quality from them that count....

Mark

[symes]

Once again, this is all going off track...it has nothing really to do with the photographer. It has to do with selective C&C and hypocrisy from many on here. Let me say this again...this has nothing to do with my photography at all. If it did, then I would of cried and said something when I was posting my pictures. This is all an interpretation in which I have gathered since I stopped posting them. Was it happening before, yes, and it might of included my photos as well, but I did not see it as well then...

At the risk of engaging you in another futile web argument, you've opened up a can of worms with regard to critique on POTN and though you get to choose the initial topic of the thread, it will go in directions you may not have forseen from there...

With that said...

Is there hypocrisy on POTN...sure there is...

the relativist in me has to point out that this is a reality in any facet of life. Living off your reputation and receiving praise a second, third, fourth, etc... is evident everywhere, whether it's the second book you've published after an award or the 4th Gallery you've exhibited to critical acclaim...on a much lesser level receiving praise on here after two or three different shoots that are appealing to the masses will net you more approval and a wider audience.

On a personal note, when I was posting more often on here, I had a regular following of individuals who would leave their two cents...when I stopped and started again infrequently that following was not there as they were in the past...

Stan, I take exception to the jealousy label that is being associated with those who aren't particular fond of Freddy's photos...It is anything but that for me personally and likely for those who have shared similar sentiments...

Nevertheless, you bring up an excellent point about the majority of posters who don't feel they are in a position to critique for whatever reason but want to encourage others to continue posting...what else is there to say if you simply want to encourage?!?!

I said it a long time ago, and would love to try it sometime, and have Freddy, or Jason Cole, or CharlesU post a photograph from someone else and see the reaction...my virtual guarantee is that if that photo was posted a year later by someone else without the "master' label on POTN the response would be VERY different - less posters, less encouragement, and harsher critique is my prediction...The hypocrisy woodster talks about would be in full view for everyone...

[amonline]

How in the hell has this thread lasted this long? :shock: :roll:

[Flo]

How in the hell has this thread lasted this long? :shock: :roll:

^^ Cuz^^:confused:;)

[silvex]

The matter is simple. Once you reach a plateu and you make mistakes. People just see it as a "hicup". When Carlos Santana plays he will mesmerize the entire arena. If he makes a mistake. You don't see it on every newspaper that he played "bad" or his guitar was out of tune. It is just written off as a "bad day". If he played like that, for a month in a row...then he is done...:)

The same applies to photography. We ALL have bad days. Sometimes REALLY bad days and that is the way it is.

When I look at Freddy's work I am looking into LEARNING. Better yet. When I look at some others people work that has flaws left and right. I also look at it for LEARNING into what NOT to do.

I for one, have always given my suggestions when I see it. If not, I just keep quiet to avoid the "cool shot" kind of comment which do not help anybody --sometimeI have done it.

About two months ago I was in a boot camp with a legend of sports illustrated -- among other well known sports photog. He gave the keynote presentation on the first day. He kept saying this. If you get a blurry shot of the super bowl touchdown...move on. If you get the referee blocking the amazing knock out...move on. If both of your bodies die in the middle of the final soccer world cup ( and it happenned to him)...move one. Why ??? because it happens ALL the time he said. When he submits bad shots to his editor...his *** gets chewed, ripped and spit.

NOw to point out a flaw to a "master" I think it is appropiate to do it in a respectful and professional manner. It *might* have been his/her intentions to shoot it that way.

Off soapbox.

[SwingBopper]

At the risk of offending everyone here, I don't think there are any "masters" on POTN. There are certainly varying levels of talent here; but I've seen some really egregious flaws in posts of the best that any "master" would never have gone public with (a very recent Freddy post as a good example). A "pro" who makes a living in photography and presumably has a wealth of expertise is a term I favor. And I take issue with the notion that the pros should receive any different treatment than newbies when critiques are offered. That attitude just promotes toadyism which is regrettably apparent in many threads. If any feelings should be spared, it should be the newbies who may feel intimidated just posting here at all. I'd like to see more pros posting comments on newbie threads. I see very little of that.

[Mark_Cohran]

I'd like to see more pros posting comments on newbie threads. I see very little of that.

I agree with this. Far too often, I see the "experts" posting images of their own, but not sharing any of their expertise with those just starting out by posting comments on the neophyte's images.

[symes]

I agree with this. Far too often, I see the "experts" posting images of their own, but not sharing any of their expertise with those just starting out by posting comments on the neophyte's images.

I've lamented this in the past...but some of them seem more inclined to post their own photos and enjoy the onslaught of admiration thrown their way without really helping those out...

I don't want to offend everyone here because when I was starting CharlesU really helped...but but and large the rest of the experienced glamour photogs on this forum are reluctant to do more than post...

Cheers,

[hawk911]

I agree with this. Far too often, I see the "experts" posting images of their own, but not sharing any of their expertise with those just starting out by posting comments on the neophyte's images.


Maybe that's the single most important acknowledgement yet. I post because I want and need someone to help me take better pictures. I don't usually post in G&N because most of my stuff is more Glamour, but I also refrain from posting because people that shoot better than I do rarely comment. This leaves me frustrated. Maybe the better shooters should take up more of a mentoring mentality:confused:

[amonline]

I agree with this. Far too often, I see the "experts" posting images of their own, but not sharing any of their expertise with those just starting out by posting comments on the neophyte's images.
That's because they're really here just to make a buck, but no one seems to care about that rule. ;)

[mattograph]

POTN pays?

[Kagemaru]

Yeah seriously, who on POTN is making money off POTN?

[amonline]

It pays if your only reason to be here is to spam your porn site in your signature and only post to drive traffic to it. Don't believe me? Check out their only posts, where or what threads they participate in and if they bother to comment and help others with their images in other threads. ;)

[Mark_Cohran]

It pays if your only reason to be here is to spam your porn site in your signature and only post to drive traffic to it. Don't believe me? Check out their only posts, where or what threads they participate in and if they bother to comment and help others with their images in other threads. ;)

If you have specific examples of that, please use the Report button to bring them to our attention. There are specific requirements for links in signatures and if they aren't in compliance with POTN forum rules, we can take care of the issue.

[BJWOK]

If you have specific examples of that, please use the Report button to bring them to our attention. There are specific requirements for links in signatures and if they aren't in compliance with POTN forum rules, we can take care of the issue.

freddy?

need i say it?

[amonline]

freddy?

need i say it?
I was about to ask if he was really serious. :lol:

[Mark_Cohran]

I was about to ask if he was really serious. :lol:

Yes, I am serious. Have you ever reported this to the Mod team before or brought it up to one of the moderators? I've never visited Freddy's site before.

[Kagemaru]

It pays if your only reason to be here is to spam your porn site in your signature and only post to drive traffic to it. Don't believe me? Check out their only posts, where or what threads they participate in and if they bother to comment and help others with their images in other threads. ;)

Good point!

[amonline]

Yes, I am serious. Have you ever reported this to the Mod team before or brought it up to one of the moderators? I've never visited Freddy's site before.
I'm fairly certain I've spoken about it several times over the past year or so, but my posts are generally flamed by mods when I make points like this. No, I have not officially "reported it". As much as the mods read the G&N forum, I would think it's pretty painfully obvious. My understanding is it's looked over for some reason. What that reason is, I do not know. All I know is that it's been brought up by a few members several times and mods seem to ignore it. I'm not attacking and really don't care about it. I was simply agreeing with an earlier statement in the thread that just so happen to bring the subject up once again. I actually do remember PMing a mod about this (don't remember which one), but I did not keep the PM. That's what gave me the impression that this member is overlooked for some reason.

[mattograph]

Wow.

I had never clicked on Freddy's site before.

Curious.....

[SwingBopper]

Wow.

I had never clicked on Freddy's site before.

Curious.....

I joined Freddy's site for a time. Anyone looking for porn or "trash" will be sorely disappointed. Images there are just like those posted on POTN. There may be better examples of the point being made though with other posters.

[woodsters]

wow $20.99/month...$105/6 months....just some prices I saw...If I could get 10 six month subscribers, I could get some decent lights...lol

[mattograph]

wow $20.99/month...$105/6 months....just some prices I saw...If I could get 10 six month subscribers, I could get some decent lights...lol

Well, Brian, you do have lots of fans here.......

[Michael_Lambert]

I have also paid at one point for freddy's site and there is nothing resembling porn there. Just another opportunity for him to make money shooting his glamor style of photography. You pay a premium in order to see all the shots from any set.

I stopped my subscription as it just was not my cup of tea.. seeing nude women in the same positions gets boring.. i wanna see more creative backgrounds : D

Yes he post exsculsivly to the G&N cause thats what he does, its no different than Maco Junkie who i love his work posting to only the macro area and who like Freddy sells his work through his website.. People need to pull away from the keyboards and take deep breaths and think about what they are going on about.

[Mark_Cohran]

I'm fairly certain I've spoken about it several times over the past year or so, but my posts are generally flamed by mods when I make points like this. No, I have not officially "reported it". As much as the mods read the G&N forum, I would think it's pretty painfully obvious. My understanding is it's looked over for some reason. What that reason is, I do not know. All I know is that it's been brought up by a few members several times and mods seem to ignore it. I'm not attacking and really don't care about it. I was simply agreeing with an earlier statement in the thread that just so happen to bring the subject up once again. I actually do remember PMing a mod about this (don't remember which one), but I did not keep the PM. That's what gave me the impression that this member is overlooked for some reason.

Well, mods generally don't flame anyone. The Mod Team works very hard to consider all opinions and perspectives. Links to personal sites are acceptable by the POTN rules (I have one in my sig). Links to explicit porn sites are not acceptable, but it appears that Freddy's site, does not fall within that category.

[BJWOK]

but it appears that Freddy's site, does not fall within that category.

"appears" being the operative word.

bit hard to tell when you have to pay to actually see the site? how can you make a valid judgement unless you have seen the site?

[amonline]

Mark, I think you missed the entire point. Before I continue, I want you to know I am not arguing and your decision is fine. Maybe I shouldn't even have joined in this discussion. I just want you to understand what a few members here are/have been trying to say for a while.

IMO, I think it's disrespectful to the forum when a member's here only to post their images to drive traffic to their website with the intention of making money. The member you guys are discussing here does not participate in any topic except his own. He posts images and runs. He comes back to take kudos, but gets somewhat hostile when his images are honestly criticized. He never participates in other threads or bother to help others.

Personally, I view this as spamming.

[woodsters]

i would have to agree...not that any of my comments in this thread and his thread over in the photosharing were directed at him directly...he never said anything at all...even with a couple references to this thread he still has not spoken up...which tells me he's not really reading too much stuff.... A lot of people defended him and he never said a word...it used to be that he would only post one picture per thread...there would be numerous of them a day...with no interaction...it does start to sound like spamming to me...

[Mark_Cohran]

I think this is veering into criticism of another member. If you guys feel that way, have the courage to PM Freddy and express your views or invite him to this thread so he can respond appropriately. I think it's disingenuous to continue discussing a specific member without an opportunity for that person to respond in kind.

[Mark_Cohran]

"appears" being the operative word.

bit hard to tell when you have to pay to actually see the site? how can you make a valid judgement unless you have seen the site?

See this post from above:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=6618268&postcount=73

I value Swingbopper's opinion, so I'll take his word for it without needing to join to see myself.

[amonline]

I think this is veering into criticism of another member. If you guys feel that way, have the courage to PM Freddy and express your views or invite him to this thread so he can respond appropriately. I think it's disingenuous to continue discussing a specific member without an opportunity for that person to respond in kind.
Actually, I was very careful NOT to criticize another member directly. I joined in this topic that was already discussing the matter. So, your above response is a bit questionable. I do not believe it is any member's place to request or attack another about this issue. Again, it doesn't really matter what I have to say since mods here seem to always turn their head to certain issues. I just know and have had plenty of PM's from other members who agree with this issue and the way it is handled seems inappropriate. I would think if several members are sharing the same opinion, there seems to be a valid issue of spam.

[cdifoto]

I've viewed Freddy's posting habits as spam for quite awhile now. He does great work and I love flesh, but it's spam nonetheless since he doesn't contribute and actually looks down on those who offer up C&C.

[Michael_Lambert]

People,

I mean serious, What has POTN turned into. Its nothing but a bunch of whining children.

The site is setup very simple, so simple its stupid. There are rules stickied to the top of every forum heading.. and then there is a simple REPORT Button http://photography-on-the.net/forum/images/buttons/report.gif at the bottom of EVERY POST! You don't think a post belongs or is breaking one of the many simple rules hit the dam thing and make it clear why you are doing so. Then sit back and let the moderators of the board do there jobs! If the thread is not removed then they don't see it your way suck it and move on.

But to keep bringing this crap up in peoples threads is childish.

[cdifoto]

Behavior patterns cannot be reported with a single triangle.

Call me childish again and I'll pick up my balls and go home.

[Michael_Lambert]

You feel the thread is SPAM you can hit the single tirangle and make it clear that its his 5th post of the day showing one single half naked woman that you feel is only promoting his pornish site! And then leave it to the mods to do there jobs.

[cdifoto]

Thanks for the tip Mike. I had no idea.

[mattograph]

Behavior patterns cannot be reported with a single triangle.

Call me childish again and I'll pick up my balls and go home.

Hey, I see what you did there. Nice.

[amonline]

Michael, it would be inappropriate to report a thread as spam in your example as the OP would be "sharing" their image. I feel from experience it would just waste our time as mods would simply ignore the reports. The problem is you CANNOT report non-contribution by a member or simply contribution to produce traffic to a website where they make money off your membership. That's what this thread has been in part about. I'm sorry, but you are also missing the point. The point is not the images - the point is why the images are put here and why the member chooses not to contribute outside of posting his images simply to produce traffic and make a buck. I'm sorry Michael, but several members agree that this is simply spam.

[mattograph]

And therein lies the problem. No matter how we are trained to think things should be fair and democratic, they aren't. This is Pekka's show, and, at the end of the day, it goes how he says it goes. If his definition of spam is different then yours, or mine, his wins. Cause he writes the check.

If we don't like it, we could leave, or start our own forum. We can't, however, deny the obvious -- if 5000 members decided a certain post was spam, and 1 man disagreed, then guess what -- it aint spam.

Some things I gather:

1) Contributing only as an OP does not seem to be spam under the forum rules.
2) Pointing to your commercial website does not seem to be against forum rules.
3) At least one member who does both of the above actually has a quite simple, yet enviable, business model -- one any of us that can figure out how to use a layer could copy.
4) The internet is still very cool.

[Michael_Lambert]

CDI not calling you childish, really not trying to call anyone childish.. and your balls are kind of cute where they are so lets leave them :D

Amonline, i See your point and i have not said its not spam.. I am saying that his site is not porn ( in my eyes ) and should not matter if he charges to see additional work of his.

I also see him posting G&N pictures in a G&N image sharing forum and while i agree i would love to see him share details more as i to have pm'd him several times over the years asking about his setups and such and got no reply.. that is his decision and i don't recall anywhere in the rules that says someone has to contribute there knowledge of photography in order to be a active posting member.

I also have seen this thread go from one thing to picking out Freddy and his site.

[cdifoto]

your balls are kind of cute where they are so lets leave them :D
You sound a lot like an ex gf of mine. But you don't look a thing like her...

My chi just exploded.

[Michael_Lambert]

You sound a lot like an ex gf of mine. But you don't look a thing like her...

My chi just exploded.

Maybe one of the reason she is now your ex.. is that an offer? I would have to run it by my wife first :D

[cdifoto]

Amonline, i See your point and i have not said its not spam.. I am saying that his site is not porn ( in my eyes ) and should not matter if he charges to see additional work of his.

I also see him posting G&N pictures in a G&N image sharing forum and while i agree i would love to see him share details more as i to have pm'd him several times over the years asking about his setups and such and got no reply.. that is his decision and i don't recall anywhere in the rules that says someone has to contribute there knowledge of photography in order to be a active posting member.
I don't see his work as being porn either. I just feel his posting here is only for commercial gain, which to my mind constitutes spam.

Anyone and everyone else, including Pekka & his henchmen...err I mean Moderators...are free to disagree of course.

[Michael_Lambert]

only[/I] for commercial gain, which to my mind constitutes spam.



I agree with that, but how to do you stop it? I mean 90% of people are advertising there own business just by having our websites listed in our sigs.. some are much more profitable than others.

The fact is while he does not share much, and wont share how he gets what he does get.. He does contrbute to the forums. (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=6573407&postcount=11). VERY Little but hes does!

[cdifoto]

The fact is while he does not share much, and wont share how he gets what he does get.. He does contrbute to the forums. (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=6573407&postcount=11). VERY Little but hes does!
That's kinda like using UPS to ship a package once every 6 months just to keep your account active so you can continue ordering free thermal labels to use with USPS.

[Michael_Lambert]

That's kinda like me using UPS to ship a package once every 6 months just to keep my account active to order free thermal labels to use with USPS.

Right, So while it may not be morally right its legal and your not breaking any rules or regulations. Which mean other UPS customers who do ship daily don't have the right to opening bitch about you cause you are taking advantage.

Simply put like freddy or not, like his work or not.. He is doing nothing wrong. If he was we have had what 3-4 threads in the last couple of weeks where they turned into this bashing freddy and talking about his intentions as we see them and he is still around so i don't think that is going to change.

If some feel using the report button is a waste of there times cause the mods wont do anything about, that should show you that he is doing nothing wrong and opening criticizing him here is against the rules and you could end up getting yourself removed trying to have him removed.

[amonline]

I just feel his posting here is only for commercial gain, which to my mind constitutes spam.
I agree with that as well. When he temporarily opened the "free" doors at his site long ago; by my definition, there was definitely porn based poses. But, to the general surfer who does not become a member; yes, it's hard to say that it is porn. (until you get in the door ;) ) Generally, that is not the topic here. The quote above is what the topic is IMO. Contributing 1 remark in several weeks does not weigh in as "contribution" to me. You have to weigh it against the rest of the member's posts. ;)

I really have nothing to gain here, so I'm going to exit this conversation. I just think mods should pay more attention to how members feel when there are multiple member's with the same view.

[cdifoto]

you could end up getting yourself removed trying to have him removed.
Eh if I got banned for speaking my mind and what I feel is the truth, it wouldn't be the first time. If it'd be a permanent ban, that would suck since I like it here, but I'd move on.

For what it's worth, I have nothing against the man himself or his work. I just think he should contribute more than just eye candy. His brain should be ripe for the pickin'. We all could learn a lot from him, but he just seems to walk in, drop a bomb, take a bow while the crowd cheers and throws confetti & squirts silly string, then scoots.

[Michael_Lambert]

I think it comes down to the rules made by Pekka and enforced by his moderators.. Report the thread you think breaks them and see if your interpretations of the rules is the same as those asked to enforce them!

3. (The "Anti-Spam" jargon)

1. Direct selling of any product and/or service on the Forums, in any other area than Marketplace Section, is strictly prohibited and the rules enforced. In Marketplace Section forum members can sell merchandise or services related to Canon cameras and accessories. You agree to Marketplace Rules when posting and replying there.
2. Message bumping is prohibited.
3. Chain letters, pyramid schemes, "spam", multi-level marketing, blatant cross-posting or other solicitations are strictly prohibited.
4. Private Messaging is for personal use only - using it as a mass-marketing tool is forbidden.
5. You will not collect, record or otherwise use any other users' e-mail addresses or other personal information for any purpose other than those pertaining to participation in the Forums.
6. Political discussions and promotion of political agendas or ideas in posts, signatures, images or avatars is prohibited.
7. User names may not be rude, racist, disrespectful, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, threatening, obscene, profane, pornographic, racially or ethnically offensive. Moderators have right to force a user name change if needed.
8. User signature should go into the dedicated signature box and NOT in the actual post. Signature must not contain large fonts or distractive elements.

[tommykjensen]

Simply put: Freddy is not doing anything wrong.

This thread has turned into a personal attack of another member and that is not tolerated here so this thread will now be closed.

If you have a problem with a post, thread or a member report it to the moderators.