Models Paying Photographers - Unheard Of?

[stefeb]

I've done a lot of model shoots through Model Mayhem. Up till now all the shoots have been on a TFP/CD basis. It was a good arrangement, since I needed to practice lighting, poses, etc., with live models. Well, I've done that for a year, and now it's time to turn the corner and start charging for my services.

By no means am I saying I've "arrived", for there is always room for improvement, but my skills are such that each model I shot has been thrilled with the outcome.

Just recently a model asked me, "So, you expect models to pay you for shooting them?"

My reply was, "Yes. If a family wants a portrait taken, don't they pay the photographer? If a bride wants pictures of her wedding, don't they pay the photographer? If a model wants to add to her portfolio (which will benefit her) why should she/he not pay the photographer?"

I realize the point of TFP/CD is to help each other build portfolios, but what is the purpose of building portfolios if it only leads to more TFP/CD sessions and no paying gigs?

If all one's portfolio generates is more TFP/CD sessions, how does one ever make a dime?

The models I contact on Model Mayhem are not pros. They are aspiring models, some with a few pictures in their portfolio (professionally done), some with a few pics from friends. Why should they not pay?

Is there an elephant in the room I'm not seeing in regards to photographers being paid to take pictures?

[johncharlton]

Over here in the UK, it seems as though models have never heard of paying photographers unless they are fantastic... The problem is, that with so many photographers doing TFP/TFCD - the market has vanished for doing model portfolios on these types of websites (MM/Netmodel/Purestorm)

[Hermes]

They're unlikely to pay you because there are hundreds of other photographers still giving it away for free. On top of that, if they do decide to spend their money on a good portfolio, they'll most likely pick a well-known, exclusive photographer, not someone with a years' experience who was working for free as recently as a few weeks ago. There are photographers out there who have been going for 30-40 years who would be happy to take the same fee as you - once you start charging for your services you start competing directly with everyone else for a limited amount of money.

At the end of the day all you can do is save yourself some time by putting NO TFP in your profile and let your work speak for itself. If your portfolio is better than those of the "I'll shoot you for free brigade" then you'll get work. If not then then you can take comfort in the fact that this is a problem you've helped perpetuate over the last year :)

[stefeb]

They're unlikely to pay you because there are hundreds of other photographers still giving it away for free. On top of that, if they do decide to spend their money on a good portfolio, they'll most likely pick a well-known, exclusive photographer, not someone with a years' experience who was working for free as recently as a few weeks ago. There are photographers out there who have been going for 30-40 years who would be happy to take the same fee as you - once you start charging for your services you start competing directly with everyone else for a limited amount of money.

At the end of the day all you can do is save yourself some time by putting NO TFP in your profile and let your work speak for itself. If your portfolio is better than those of the "I'll shoot you for free brigade" then you'll get work. If not then then you can take comfort in the fact that this is a problem you've helped perpetuate over the last year :)

I appreciate your comments. All makes perfect sense.

But...Wasn't there a time when everyone, at one point in their career, did TFPs, or similar non-paid work? Perhaps some turned the corner sooner than others, but I don't think I'm a lone ranger in the "on the job training approach.

I realize there are tons of photographers with better skills than myself. Heck, I learn something from every image I look at, but I'm willing to let my work stand for itself.

If my work doesn't bring me paying business, then I'll work harder to produce better images (that's an ongoing process anyway), until my work alone, generates income.

Without a portfolio, there's nothing for a prospective customer to see. Who's going to pay for some unseen product? Perhaps there was another way of entering the model/portfolio business, but the approach I undertook seemed like the sensible thing to do.

Perhaps I should have posted this thread several months ago.

To date, I have two models willing to pay for my services. Two is better than none. So, it's a start. A small one, but a start nonetheless.:D

[sspellman]

Steve-

Hermes put it very well. Your next step shoudl be to pursue magazines and commercial clients. This will help build your reputation to the point were you are more likely to get models to pay you directly.

-Scott

[stefeb]

Steve-

Hermes put it very well. Your next step shoudl be to pursue magazines and commercial clients. This will help build your reputation to the point were you are more likely to get models to pay you directly.

-Scott

Thanks, Scott.

How do you go about doing that? Send pictures to them? Is there a comp card substitute for photographers?, etc.

[sspellman]

Steve-

Start with publications/media. Make a contact list of all the publications in the area that use original photography. Chances are that business portraits are more in demand than original fashion, but figure out which ones might use your services. Then get names and contact information for editors, graphic designers, owners or other people who might hire photographers. Make some promotional materials-often digital. There are no industry wide promo standards for photogs-make your own to be original and stand out. Send them out, and try to get face to face meetings with them to talk about their requirements and where you might be able to contribute. Work hard on networking to build up personal contatcs with media, merchants, stylists, and models. Once your work is solid, you will be better off by doing TF*s for merchants/stores or other potential clients. A solid website is really essential to attracting new clients.

Realistically, shooting just fashion in a small market is very tough because demand is so limited. Be flexible to shoot other assignments, and then pitch more fashion related concepts. You can try to approach regional or national magazines, but that is extremely hard unless you are already in the right market-LA, NYC, MIA, Chitown.

Good Luck-
Scott

[stefeb]

Steve-

Start with publications/media. Make a contact list of all the publications in the area that use original photography. Chances are that business portraits are more in demand than original fashion, but figure out which ones might use your services. Then get names and contact information for editors, graphic designers, owners or other people who might hire photographers. Make some promotional materials-often digital. There are no industry wide promo standards for photogs-make your own to be original and stand out. Send them out, and try to get face to face meetings with them to talk about their requirements and where you might be able to contribute. Work hard on networking to build up personal contatcs with media, merchants, stylists, and models. Once your work is solid, you will be better off by doing TF*s for merchants/stores or other potential clients. A solid website is really essential to attracting new clients.

Realistically, shooting just fashion in a small market is very tough because demand is so limited. Be flexible to shoot other assignments, and then pitch more fashion related concepts. You can try to approach regional or national magazines, but that is extremely hard unless you are already in the right market-LA, NYC, MIA, Chitown.

Good Luck-
Scott

Thank you, Scott. Excellent advice.

It seems turning the corner, has also been a great learning experience as well.

Really appreciate your thoughtful response.:D

[Brad Gosse]

Very interesting thread.

Would you retain copyright and licensing options for the pictures?

I personally just pay my models. Always have. I prefer to be in charge and not have to do things their way. Then again I license my photos.

[tim]

If you're good at it you can stop doing TFP and charge, but like people have said unless you're great models will likely go to someone free.

[sl3966]

Here is the thing I noticed as well, you can have great shots that showcase the model well and are excellent quality as far as composition and exposure. But most of the models I have run into would rather pay for a crazy concept with elaborate sets and styling. The problem is that I am not making that investment on an unknown model from MM as I have had way too many no show on me. There are around 4-5 on there that I would invest that time and money into because they have shown me that they are reliable and punctual on more than one occasion. Most will also pay if you are consistently getting published and have tears to show for it or if you are actively testing with an agency.

[Hermes]

Here is the thing I noticed as well, you can have great shots that showcase the model well and are excellent quality as far as composition and exposure. But most of the models I have run into would rather pay for a crazy concept with elaborate sets and styling. The problem is that I am not making that investment on an unknown model from MM as I have had way too many no show on me. There are around 4-5 on there that I would invest that time and money into because they have shown me that they are reliable and punctual on more than one occasion. Most will also pay if you are consistently getting published and have tears to show for it or if you are actively testing with an agency.

I always charge a deposit paid upon booking and I've never had a model not show up.

[Longwatcher]

I occasionally (or actually rarely) get paid to shoot a model portfolio.

But it don't pay the bills.

Usually it is someone that is tired of getting crapy photos from someone with a new dslr trying to start in the business. I am cheaper then the high-end folks, but quality wise about equal when I have access to a makeup artist. Usually for someone that has some talent, but no money.

[stathunter]

This is my own opinion and may not be valid here but here it is. I find that models tend to be the flakiest bunch to photograph. If you are doing it for free you are probably attracting some of the worst. Even if you charge it is typically not a huge profit margin. If you are into photography to look at women then go ahead and do TFP or charge models for something and deal with the idiosyncrasies and photograph them. But in my opinion if you want to make an income in photography get out of models and do something else.

[Borbor]

Making money on MM is a pipe dream.

TF shoots are the worst in terms of commitment.

[bubbawillums]

I left these sites like MM and Net-Model as most of the girls that i have spoken to on there had waaay too much bad attitude and i got fed up of it. I sell model portfolios for £200 a pop to up and coming models and i see that as a good price as if they were going into london for a studio shoot they would pay 3x that amount.
I had a portfolio on Net-Model and i got regular emails from models asking if i would help them with a portfolio etc. When i mentioned prices they refused to pay any kind of fee and some of them actually wanted me to pay up to £50 an hour to shoot them.
I do the occasional TFP shoot if i think it would help my own portfolio but this is quite rare these days.
I'm not saying that all of the girls on these sites are anything like i have come across but i think some of them do get a big head and forget that we need to earn a living.

[telles75]

Very interesting thread.

Would you retain copyright and licensing options for the pictures?

I personally just pay my models. Always have. I prefer to be in charge and not have to do things their way. Then again I license my photos.


Wow Brad. So you actually pay your models? What's in it for you a part from getting more experience and portafolio?

[cdifoto]

If I was an aspiring model, and I could either be photographed and paid, or photographed for free, I'm not going to pay to be photographed.

The longer you shoot for free, the less chance you have of ever being able to charge for it.

However, if you do want to be paid bad enough, don't look to the models for your income. Look to publications. Porn mags, fashion mags, websites, etc. Start submitting your portfolio to a LOT of places. If you're good, someone will pick you up.

[telles75]

Makes sense cdifoto :)

[M Powered]

Few things to know about Model Mayhem, I'm on it actively and shot a lot of models on there. Hell, my entire Model Mayhem portfolio are models from Mayhem; sure I shot other models but if they are not on Mayhem I dont post their photo.

The information given so far is pretty accurate, in summary expect the following.

1) Lots of photogs out there doing TF for just about anyone with a pretty face, yes even seasoned pros.

2) Models that like your work will work to find photogs with similar work who will work for TF.

3) Most models who are new will not have the experience or know what to look for in a quality photo. Seasoned models will, but they won't pay unless your shooting for agencies.

So bottom line, shoot for agencies and get agency models who are looking to update their port contact you.

I try to avoid working with inexperienced models because they will either

1) edit your photo without authorization; releases are irrelevant they don't give a damn - they just do it.

and

2) be over demanding.

Save yourself the stress, seeking paid work from inexperienced models are a waste of time. I turn down the majority of paid assignments I get from mayhem for the above reasons. Just remember chances are if your not feeling the model and are shooting her just because she pays you; your reputation will be in the photos she slaps on myspace... yes even edited ones. How much is the price to pay for your reputation?

[Hermes]

Few things to know about Model Mayhem, I'm on it actively and shot a lot of models on there. Hell, my entire Model Mayhem portfolio are models from Mayhem; sure I shot other models but if they are not on Mayhem I dont post their photo.

The information given so far is pretty accurate, in summary expect the following.

1) Lots of photogs out there doing TF for just about anyone with a pretty face, yes even seasoned pros.

2) Models that like your work will work to find photogs with similar work who will work for TF.

3) Most models who are new will not have the experience or know what to look for in a quality photo. Seasoned models will, but they won't pay unless your shooting for agencies.

So bottom line, shoot for agencies and get agency models who are looking to update their port contact you.

I try to avoid working with inexperienced models because they will either

1) edit your photo without authorization; releases are irrelevant they don't give a damn - they just do it.

and

2) be over demanding.

Save yourself the stress, seeking paid work from inexperienced models are a waste of time. I turn down the majority of paid assignments I get from mayhem for the above reasons. Just remember chances are if your not feeling the model and are shooting her just because she pays you; your reputation will be in the photos she slaps on myspace... yes even edited ones. How much is the price to pay for your reputation?

Couldn't agree more with this sentiment. I only accept portfolio bookings from freelance models who are known and have good references, and I do it on strict terms. Otherwise, it has to go through an agency. Most new models, even those who are prepared to hire you, will on average give you more aggravation and waste more of your time than working with them is worth.

[telles75]

Thanks a lot for the tips guys!