Shooting a family wedding - Along side hired pro.

[Michael_Lambert]

Hey guys,

So a couple of months ago my wifes sister asked me to photograph there wedding. From the readings on these forums and such and with our newborn there was just no way i could do it, that and i really dislike working for family so i suggested to her to hire a professional who does it for a living.

She asked me at that point if i could "Help out" when needed so i asked her what she meant by that and she said just at times when the hired pro was not around, or if he was shooting one thing if i could do other things. Mostly she is looking for me to just walk around and do the candid stuff, most of her family would be alittle more open and out going towards me so she knows i might pull off some better shots. That and she has asked that i come by first thing in the morning.

Her hired pro is working 14 hours ( 10 am to 12 midnight ) there ceremony is at 2pm. So she has asked that i drop by first thing in the morning and catch some of the family anitcs that are bound to happen untill the photographer shows up and then shot some more when he leaves to go to the grooms.

Well this is where the issue comes, The photographer was over the other day to go through what formal shots they want and to get the schedual of events so he does not miss anything, He seen on the table some poster size prints that i shoot of them for there engagement which i did last week only because they did not book the studio when they booked the wedding and then could not fit them in when they relised the engagments where not included.

So, the photographer complimented them on the shots and asked who did them. She said i had and he said he was glad she could find someone on short notice, She told him that i was her brother inlaw and that i would actually be helping out at the wedding as well. Well aparently he did not look too happy about it, He snardly remarked that in the contract it does state they can not have any other hired pros, that if addional people are required they would supply them at addional cost.

She told him i was not hired that i was just family and i would stay completely out of his way ( Which i completed planned on doing ) and that i was primarly going to be only doing shots when he is not there to ensure everything is covered, and just walking around family candid stuff.

He came accross to her kind of abrubt and told her that it was her responsibility to ensure all family and guest where not to be around while they are doing the formal shots that he was not being paid to setup formal shots for family and friends to shoot it.

He then asked her what kind of gear i would be using, and she really does nto know much but told him that she does not know the model but knows its canon and that i paid almost 10grand for it.. I am guess that he is worried about me stealing his staged shots and them getting the prints from me stealing the money out of his hands, Which keep in mind i would not do..

She has asked me to talk to the photographer the day off and try and ease the tension

My question is, Where does he get the right to go off like this. Every wedding i have been to the bride and groom are swarmed with point and shoots, and while its very annoying it happens how can you sit there on there day and say they have to ensure no one snaps a shot of his work, and while i am sure he may be annoyed that i would be there.. it was made clear to him why i was there and what i would be doing and again have no intentions of getting in his way.

Aside from leaving my camera at home which some might suggest, what do you all think is the best way to approach this?

[OdiN1701]

Just ask him what he expects. If he doesn't want you shooting during formals, then don't. I don't blame him - having more than one person with a camera can lead to people looking at the wrong one - especially if both are more pro level cameras. He may not even want the P&S people there when he is working.

I think if you explain what you're doing, and don't shoot things he's setting up that you'll be fine. I don't think he'd have an issue with you getting maybe some more private family type shots or doing some candids around the reception.

[Michael_Lambert]

Oh i have no intentions of being near them during there formals. They are doing the formals outside the hall and i have been asked to go in and shoot inside the hall while they are outside to get some setup shots and stuff. He was told that but he got totally bent out of shape.

I have a voice message from her i just have not had time to call her back yet being that i work on the phone all day :( Hopefully all is fine.

[OdiN1701]

Just talk the the guy...he's probably put up with the "Uncle Bob" types and most probably are more annoying than working with another actual pro. They don't understand the dynamics of the event, etc. so usually are in the way or think differently than you will.

I figure the best thing is to just have a nice chat with the guy - sit down for a cup of coffee when you both have time or something. All he has now is perceptions about what will happen and in the mind of a wedding photog - it's probably a worst case scenario type thing. We like to think that way :P But I'm sure after a meet you'd work things out nicely.

[Michael_Lambert]

Well,

I called her back and she got a phone call from him today about another issue he was unaware of the traveling so he wanted to tack on $100 for traveling expenses and she said that was fine just to prevent any more tension...

She also told him that she asked me to speak with him to ensure i do not intrude on any of his shots or get in his way in anyway possible.

His reply was "Anyone at your wedding with a camera is a potenial problem. The bigger the camera the bigger the problem tends to be. While i understand your friend might be a professional he is not a Professional Wedding Photographer or else i would have never been called."

So now i am almost tempted to just show up with a Freaking G9 and still get the shots she wants!

Anyways, i think at this point i am best to introduce myself saturday morning and do what i said i would stay out of his sight.

[stathunter]

Call the photog and get clearance from him-- introduce yourself and see if you can make friends.
I typically tell clients that they can have anyone they like photograph....the disclaimer I make is if someone gets in my way I am not going to fight I will just step back---- and I let them know that may effect the quality or number of my photos.
Usually when I say this the client quickly parts the sea for me and lets everyone know not to get in my way.

EDIT: some old school wedding photographers are their own worst enemy-- sounds like he is one.

[Michael_Lambert]

Yea i tried calling the photog, got a voice mail system saying that he unavailible and to leave a voice message which he will be picking up regularly.

I am going to fire him off a email in a second.

** Edited**

This is the email i sent. Hopefully it will smooth things over and saturdays event will go off with out a hitch.

Good afternoon XXXXX.


I wanted to take a second to introduce myself, my name is Michael Lambert and I am a professional sports/ events photographer. You have been in communications with my sister in law who has hired you for her wedding this weekend and I must say that after reviewing our portfolio on your website I know she will be very pleased with the out come.

There seems to be some possible miss communication and I wanted to clear that up with you before this weekend hits and I know you will be very busy and your mind will be on shooting her and her event.

I just wanted to let you know that I am not a professional wedding photographer which is why you are doing what you do. However I do know professional photography Etiquette and I completely acknowledge that you are the hired pro for this event and my intentions are to be completely invisible to you. I have been asked to photograph candid stuff and some family members while you are busy with the bride and groom during this special event.

I would ask that if at any time you feel I am impeding on your space or am in your way for any reason to please let me know and I will ensure not to let it happen again.

Warmest Regards,

Michael Lambert.

[CheetaPita]

Seems to me that youre handling this very well. the other photographer is probably overreacting - but i can sorta see how he could be upset at the idea....I shoot weddings almost every weekend. I work with a local guy here...well i work FOR him. which is why i hardly ever post my wedding stuff on POTN. But i can tell you.....it is iNCREDIBLY annoying when there is another photographer there that is trying to get behind you and get the same shots. I know you have no intention of doing that, but this photographer might have had a bad experience with someone else doing it and now he is just worried.

We give a CD and a copyright release to brides, so its never a worry for me about who they will be buying a print from...but i'll tell you...especially on the posed/formal shots...its very very very very very annoying to have someone else - who isnt the hired pro- stand behind you and get the same shot. The main reason why - the people in the photo never know who to look at. it becomes problematic especially when the group of people is larger or there are kids. See...if a family member is taking a photo behind me....and there is a lil flower girl in the shot....9 times out of 10 she will look at who she knows - which often times is a family member who is into photography. Even adults do that! Its not that i dont want anyone to get the shot...i just dont want them to ruin MY shot, kwim?

[Michael_Lambert]

yea,

Well i got the read recipt so i know the email was read however i have not gotten a reply so i am not too worried about it. If he is honesty going to get bent out of shape over this, then he might be in the wrong profession.

While i agree it sucks when people are lined up behind you shooting your shots it does happen and we hope that most will respect it but some don't and its just human nature.

While i can see him worried when i showed up with a 1D Mark3 and a couple of expensives lens /flashes he has to understand that now adays the average joe is buying up these pro series bodies and he is going to start seeing them around more often. He just has to respect the fact that i have tried to contact him, I have made my intentions clear and honesty i have my wife and 2 month old child there that night.. first time my daughter is going to something like this... i can assure you my camera is going to be pointed on them most of the time...

He has been hired to do a job, He has been paid for the job and the packages have been picked out and paid for, Regardless if there are 100 of me's there that night he is still walking away with what he was hired for and he is getting paid well for it.

I have looked at the package they bought and what it included and honesty i think he is about 30% priced too high, atleast compared to other studios locally and what alot of the guys on these boards charge, and then on top of that charge her another $100 for traveling when the contract was agreed upon and the address and traveling distances where listed.. saying that oh i did not relise it was so far.. I mean come on the contract says you are starting in this town, you are driving this distance to this town, driving back this distance back to this town and then finally ending up in this town at this distance. Being paid a "Expenses Fee" which listed in that explaination is "Gas, Food and admissions fees"

But hey, we are bigger people i guess she did not complain so i wont start nothing either, and i will stay out of his way and if is that uptight come the day off well she will have a back up on site if things fall through.

[shannyD]

[quote=CheetaPita;6591306]....it is iNCREDIBLY annoying when there is another photographer there that is trying to get behind you and get the same shots. quote]


that part is annoying because i have had the chance tow ork for a couple people. and whats worse is when you get someone who just picked up a rebel kit and stand infront of you while you are lining up your shot, and they blow it for you. so you miss out on it all togethr.

michael.

i think you are doing it the right way with contacting hom, and letting hom know your intentions, and that you are well aware of his situation, and or feelings regarding this weekend.

i hope that this runs nice and smooth for you, and veryone involved.

good luck,

shannon

[Michael_Lambert]

Yea the Annoying Photographer is not just weddings :D But you know what as a professional photographer doing something like a wedding where you know you have 250 guest 200 of them have cameras you are going to get people in the way and rouge flashes going off screwing up your shot. Which is why we shoot the shot more than once and we try and work with the people.

I married into a large portugese family, and we do 5-6 weddings per year and i must say i have yet to run across a bad photographer. We are talking about large weddings 3-5hundred people and lots of cameras. While yes we get the aunts and uncles and kids trying to capture the staged shots, just about every wedding i have gone to the photographer sets up the shot asks everyine nicly to sit back and enjoy for a min and he will give them a turn once he does his thing.

As a wedding photographer i think you need to be able to work with the people! I dont think you should ever have to put any additional stress on the bride!

Two of the weddings the photographer went right to the best man and maid of honor and got them to do crowd control during the formals and that worked out perfectly.. just takes a moment, be nice and ask for the help and you will get it..

[Michael_Lambert]

Wow,

I must admit that i might want to pack all my gear just incase. I have a funny feeling i am dealing with the mentality of a child!

This is the reply i got.

----------------------------------------------

Mr. Lambert,

As you are aware we are not just professional photographers we are a professional company. We are here to service our clients in any and all means possible. This is my life and my bread and butter!

One of our issues with today’s society is that everyone is out for themselves and anyone will do anything to save a buck, this includes paying less for work that is inferior to our own. While I understand you are a professional and you claim you will act like one during the event; it is my experience that a professional like yourself will toss professionalism out the window in the heat of the moment.

Please understand that this is not a baseball game where three strikes and you’re out. I have a very clear contract with XXXX and it will be up held, you are a professional photographer and you will be considered “a hired professional” if I catch you photographing anything formally setup. Please understand that in this industry we have a zero tolerance for this sort of thing and I will not invest my time and efforts for someone else to benefit from my work.

Let me make this very clear to you, XXXX will be in breach of contract if I catch you photographing anything that I have staged or formally setup and I will with out hesitation pack up my gear and leave the event immediately.

Signed;
XXXXXX

[stathunter]

Michael,
Sounds like he is a real idiot. You can't fix stupid! WOW

[Michael_Lambert]

Well i don't know what to do now.

I have fired off the email and a quick note to my sister inlaw just letting her know what she will be dealing with and i have let her know that i will just stick to shooting the stuff before he shows up and then do the candid stuff when they are not doing the formals.

I figure i will leave it up to her the last thing i want is this guy just storming out having a hissy fit. But if she inists then she can deal with it but i don't want to bring addintinoal hardship on her for it unless she wants it :D

[-MasterChief-]

Michael, im really sorry to have read this but i really think that this dude is a professional a-hole. the only way to properly communicate with him is to stoop down to his level. :p :D

[Michael_Lambert]

Yea but see i am a big boy and getting down to the level to be able to communicate with the slime on the bottom of ones shoes is easy.. its getting back up that is a pain in my ass :D One reason i don't do wedding photography... i am not in the right shape for it!

But that aside i have no issues keeping with his request, he wont catch me shooting his formal shots.

[bubbawillums]

sounds like a right div!!
sorry to hear about this, take the G9 and dont even introduce yourself to him, that way he does not know who the pro is and cant accuse anyone of stealing his shots ;)

[Michael_Lambert]

Yea

I could probably pull off some really decent shots with the G9.. Then i could lend my 1D mark3, my 30D, Digital rebel and my buddies 30D and D3 to a few of the 12 year old cousins and tell them to stand there and shoot everything.. :D and see what kind of reply they get.

[stathunter]

This should have been his response:

Mr. Lambert,

Thank you for your email. It is nice to speak with other photographers and I appreciate the courtesy of an email from you.

I have no problem if you would like to photograph at any time. Please do remember that the couple hired my company to capture the day for them, and it would be greatly appreciated if I could photograph all of the details accordingly. I want to ensure that the couple has spent their money wisely and we give them all of the shots that they can remember for many years to come.

I look forward to meeting you!

Signed;
XXXXXX

[Michael_Lambert]

Starhunter,

That is kind of the idea i was expect to get back from him.. Something saying shoot untill your heart is content just stay out of my way.. in a nice way :D

Whats funny, is a couple of the local guys i talk to and one of them is a wedding photographer full time have had noting but laughs over this. To the point where they all ( about 8 of them ) want to show up to shoot the wedding, for free just to see how far they could push this guy.

I mean when a contract say's "no other hired pro unless provided by me" you had better be able to prove with our a dout that there was another HIRED PRO there. I am not going to make a penny of anything i shoot, its family.. it's my sister inlaw i had full intentions of shooting what ever she wanted converting my images to jpeg and handing them over. Not making a penny!

The only good thing out of this was they paid ( in full :( ) but paid by credit card so if he does walk out and breaches the contract by fausing accusing them of something like he might do.. i am sure reversing the charges should not be hard to do.

[-MasterChief-]

To the point where they all ( about 8 of them ) want to show up to shoot the wedding, for free just to see how far they could push this guy.

now, that would be too funny. :D :D :D

[stathunter]

now, that would be too funny. :D :D :D

Have all of them focus on taking photos of "the pro" taking photos. Tell him you guys are working for a new photography program PhotoZilla.

[Michael_Lambert]

Yea,

I chuckle just thinking of the fireing squad standing right behind him and all these speed lites going off.. lol, Just for fun i would set my camera to high and see how he likes the speed lites going off 2-3 times per second :D

[bubbawillums]

I recon he is just scared you will upstage him, the guy has confidence issues IMO!

[ironchef31]

Starhunter,
I mean when a contract say's "no other hired pro unless provided by me" you had better be able to prove with our a dout that there was another HIRED PRO there. I am not going to make a penny of anything i shoot, its family.. it's my sister inlaw i had full intentions of shooting what ever she wanted converting my images to jpeg and handing them over. Not making a penny!


Sorry you have to deal with this kind of stuff. If he brings that attitude to the wedding, I think his photography will reflect it.

So POTN meet at... (when and where is the wedding?) for a study in wedding photography.:)

[CheetaPita]

oh man....he sounds like a real jerk in the response he sent you :( sorry youre having to deal with this guy

[tim]

The pro's there for 14 hours and she wants more photo???

Just talk to the pro, tell him you're not going to photograph his poses, just take photos when he's away doing something else. There's nothing he can do about it anyway, just make sure he's happy so he does a good job for your sister.

[tim]

oh man....he sounds like a real jerk in the response he sent you :( sorry youre having to deal with this guy

He sounds fine to me, professional, making sure he can do his job properly.

[S.Horton]

<Evil twin options>

Rent a Medium Format for the day....

Rent an pro HD video outfit....

Bring a pocket wizard.... tune in, have some fun

</evil>

Take it as a compliment, in a way -- The guy saw your prints and knew that you were not just another guy with a camera.

As for enforcing his contract, he is trying to protect his income there. He has no idea who you are or what you'll do.

In the end, I think your options are limited. Take the G9, let this all pass to make the day go smoothly, or have his contract re-negotiated. ;}

[Michael_Lambert]

My goal is going to be going commando.. I am going to fly under his radar get what i have been asked to and get out back to my baby girl and wife with out anyone knowing i was there :D

[tim]

"Just hold still and smile, you won't feel a thing!"

[collierportraits]

Michael,

I have read several of your posts and you seem to have a great handle on how to deal with difficult situations. This is certainly one of them. You are between a rock (your sister in law who just wants "some extra photos") and a hard place (the hired gun that is worried about losing income to you, another professional)

He may not have handled this in the best manner, but look at this from his perspective. (I can tell you haven't photographed weddings for a living or you would already realize where he's coming from) He sets up the shot, sets up the pose and then "Uncle Harry" is behind him taking the shot, and printing it LARGE like you already 'stole' the engagement portrait. I know, I know, you explained it well, I'm just telling you the way he views it. He lost income while you printed the larger e-session.

Now, he knows that if he doesn't make it PAINFULLY clear to you, you're going to shoot his poses, his stuff and then he will get Zero reprints or any add on orders, which is where good money is made on a wedding. And we know on here that you're not going to do that, but HE doesn't know that. What happens when you shoot a GREAT shot of the B&G, and they LOVE it and say it's their favorite shot of the entire day, can we get a wall portrait?? Please? Of course, if it was my wife's sister, I'd say YES! And, viola', just that easy, he's lost another sale. That's reality. And it really puts him in an awkward place. SO, what's the answer?

You have to talk to him. Face to face would be even better if possible. (It's much easier for him to be snarky in an email) I would tell him that she asked you to photograph the wedding, but that you refused because you know how talented these guys are and what patience it requires and you fully respect what they do, blah, blah. And I'm sure all of that is true. Tell him that you INSISTED that she hire a professional and that she did, which is why he got the job and you ARE SO HAPPY that he is doing it because HIS WORK IS AMAZING! Ok, you get the idea. I just wanted to give you the wedding photogs side of the story. We get burned. A lot. From cheap brides who want a little something extra for free. Like your sister in law. Just wants some extra photos! Isn't it nice Uncle Mike's a photographer! ;)

I've never really worried about it, it's part of the business and most of my level of brides don't play these games, but some do. And A LOT of wedding guys/gals are extremely sensitive to this, just like this guy is... But you have to talk to him. Once you do, you'll be fine, I'm sure. Just don't ask him what equipment he's shooting, cuz he might be jealous of that too. You got some nice stuff! ;)

[AdrianeCale]

I think some of us aren't really reading into what Michael is saying. He doesn't plan on taking any of the posed shots, which is what this guy is worried about. If I were him, I wouldn't even be around when those are going on. That way you have a whole wedding party to back you up that you WEREN'T there!

I think this other photographer is taking it to far. I do agree with him that someone else with a fancy camera can be a nuisance, but he is being a bit harsh towards Michael. This guy is just making an enemy out of a potential colleague.

I've had a situation where I was standing right next to a bride when one of her friends with Nikon SLR came up and asked her if she wanted her "to take pictures over my shoulder and give them to her later" of the posed portraits!! I WAS STANDING RIGHT THERE!!! I turned around and said, no thank you, I don't need the extra help photographing the portraits, but if you want to put your camera down and help me wrangle up all these people, I'll give you a 20% discount on anything you might order. And that seemed to work pretty well. She wasn't mad, and she did apologize later. Like the other photographer said, some people are only out for themselves so they can save a buck. Well, sometimes friends are willing to help other friends save a buck at your expense as well.

So Micheal, this is what I would do - Take your G9 and just use it. It looks less threatening to the other photographer, and if he doesn't know what you look like, then for all he knows the "evil photographer brother-in-law" didn't even show up. If she's just wanting candids like she says, that G9 will be just fine. Another idea would be for her to make up a time line for him, to show him where he will be during the morning, and where you will be during the morning, and that your paths will never cross. Then, once you're at the ceremony, just photograph the wedding for you and your wife from your seat and get some pictures for your memories. The paid guy will get the couple's memories for them, like he's being paid to do. And like I said before, unless you're going to be in one of the formal portraits, I wouldn't even stick around for those. That's just my two cents worth.

[Michael_Lambert]

Let me clear some something up here.

It was made very very clear to the hired photographer by the bride on two different meetings that I was going to be around shooting candid that I would not be shooting formals mostly because I will be in a few of them and because she has made it very clear what she wants me to shoot and that is stuff that the photographer will not be around for!

Out of respect due to some miss understandings between the hired pro’s Idea of what I will be doing and what the bride told him I would be doing, I emailed him and thought I made it clear what my intentions where and that I would stay completely out of his way and that I had no intentions of stealing any of his shots. I made it clear I would stay away from him during these times as I have other things I will be doing during this time at a different location, I am going to be shooting at the reception while he is doing the formals and he knows they are in different locations.

I made this clear in the email and he replies with the threats he did.

My intentions are clear I will be there with my SLR shooting when I was asked to that is from 8am until 12 noon at the brides house and the hired pro is scheduled to arrive at 12:30. I will then be shooting them on the bus going to the church as the hired pro refused to go on the bus as he has too much gear even though the bride really really wanted him on there for different toast and stuff however he insisted on using his own car missing these opportunities and dinged her with a expense fee covering the cost of gas he does not need to use.

I will then be photographing family showing up at the reception in a different town from where the family will be doing there formals, I will be on the bus from the church to the area where they are doing the formals ( Shooting the toast and family congratulations ) at which point when I get to the formals location I will be jumping ship and catching a ride with another family member to the hall to make sure its setup and to take family portraits of the different families coming. When the pride and groom show up I will be like any other guest sitting at my table tending to my family.

From this point until midnight the show is in the hands of the hired pro, I have no intentions of shooting much as like I said I will be tending to my own family needs and shooting some simple candids which I have no issues using G9 or even just my 30D with nothing on it :D

At which point at midnight when he is scheduled to leave I will be asked to step up and shoot some of the dancing, the midnight buffet and the final dance with the family then them running off to the limo leaving.

I think it was made clear to him that if he is truly a professional wedding photographer he would not be worried about me and he would acknowledge that I have gone out of my way to work with him and not work against him, we all know that I have all the right in the world to walk into that event as a guest and shot whatever I want however I want as I am a guest and only a guest. However I have made it very very clear, that I am not there for that reason and I have no reason to do it!

Anways,

I will wait and when he shows up I will have my gear away and we will see what his deminer is like with out me around and then we will see what its like when I do pull out or when he does see me with the camera. I want to approach him and introduce myself however at the same time I don’t want to as he needs to spend his time watching the bride not watching what I am doing :D

[collierportraits]

Mike, hey, I'm on your side! :D

Yes, your 'stated' intentions are clear, BUT what you are actually going to do is NOT clear to him at all. I'm just trying to present this from his perspective. Yes, he was a jerk but he wanted to "nip this in the bud" so to speak, which is why he spoke so harshly. It's only because (As Adriane said) it's been done to us SO MUCH, that's all. Adriane, I have also had similar things happen where I was standing right there, and I usually didn't say a word, or if I did, it was self deprecating or joking, as in "Yeah, that's why I'm here, so you can all piggyback! Jump on, everyone!" They would all laugh and mostly get the idea.

Micheal, I feel quite sure with the tone of your statements here, that the day will go off with only one hitch. ;) You have a great attitude about it and I'm sure it'll be fine! Good luck with that! :D

[Michael_Lambert]

Guys i konw the feeling, while i have not shot weddings i have shot other events ( Local soccer teams ) where i spend 20 mins getting the team setup just right only to have 30 parents behind me shooting the same thing. Knowing dam well that thats 30 less prints that are going to be ordered from me. I know the feeling and i know how badly you just wanted to grab the monopod and start swinging :D

Its like i said i have no intentions of being a hinder or making money, so if putting my camera away for the day and drinking a few beers and getting frisky with my wife is needed... i am all up for it :D

But like i said it is a very large family, We have 8 cousins getting married next year who are going to be looking for a photographer soon and if i where to only judge this guy on the way he has acted thus far he would not be getting a recommendation from me. However we all know that commincations through email and second hand is never accourate and I will be showing up tomorrow morning as if none of this has happened execpt for the fact of keeping my word.. If he choses to bring this anger or unwillingness to belieave i am sincer about all this tomorrow and wants to make a sene over nothing, well thats his own bullet going into his own gun that will end up shooting his foot!

[tsw910]

im sorry, but this pro sounds pretty insecure to me, i've attended weddings where the couple hires 2 PRO companies to shoot the wedding, just in case someone missed something .. and both companies came with 2 shooters .. i didnt see any toe stepping, they were actually getting along very well .. being able to capture all 4 corners of the wedding ..

and i've also shot a wedding after the couple has hired a "pro company" and during the shoot, i would say something like this to the couple, remember, you guys PAID for him, so anytime his lens is pointed at you, LOOK his way, not anyone else's .. and that includes ME .. and honestly, it makes NO SENSE for you to shadow him anyways, they wanted you to capture events thats not covered by him, cuz there's no way in hell he'll be able to be everywhere during the event. just my .02

but good luck with this Michael

[jblaschke]

Let me clear some something up here.

...

I will wait and when he shows up I will have my gear away and we will see what his deminer is like with out me around and then we will see what its like when I do pull out or when he does see me with the camera. I want to approach him and introduce myself however at the same time I don’t want to as he needs to spend his time watching the bride not watching what I am doing :D


My suggestion? Avoid him at all costs. Some here insist you see his side, which is a valid point, but they overlook his rude, confrontational and unprofessional responses. Maybe he's been watching too much of the ongoing political campaign? He could just as easily have gotten his point across in a civil manner. He chose not to, despite your repeated efforts to extend an olive branch.

He's already made up his mind about you, and nothing you can do or say will change his mind at this point. So don't try. Just follow through on your plan and have your camera packed away when he arrives. Having dealt with folks exhibiting similar "people skills" in the past, I wouldn't be surprised if this photographer turns out to be surly to some degree while he's working, whether or not people try to "take the shot over his shoulder."

You've handled this very well so far, but any further effort on your part to mend fences with this guy is wasted effort.

[jgrussell]

If he choses to bring this anger or unwillingness to belieave i am sincer about all this tomorrow and wants to make a sene over nothing, well thats his own bullet going into his own gun that will end up shooting his foot!I can't wait to hear how this all turned out...

[shannyD]

I can't wait to hear how this all turned out...

neither can i.

[Chris71]

I am kind of on the fence with this one. While I do understand what the bride wants from you, and what you plan on shooting, at my last wedding I had a similar situation. I had been told nothing of a friend who is going to take photographs. The day of the wedding, the mother of the bride tells me that she has a friend that is going to take some shots, but she would not get in my way. The photographer even introduced herself to me before the ceremony, and said she would stay out of the way.
Well, the ceremony starts and there she is, right up at the front on the opposite side of the church. I had been told by the priest, that I could not be on the altar at any time during the ceremony. Well, guess where the friend went during the ceremony? On the altar! The priest calmly stopped the ceremony, and starred at her until she got off.
Well I let it go. Then after the ceremony, I was setting up to do the formals. I had the bride and groom set, took a shot, and here comes the friend who jumps right in front of me and starts shooting. Tells them to move this way, and that way, and continues shooting. I had to say something at this point. I am by nature, a very nice guy, and politely told the bride and groom that I had a certain amount of time to get my formal shots done according to their list. If I didn't get all the shots that they wanted, it would not be my fault, and started to walk off.
I was stopped by the bride, who apologized for the friends behavior, and asked to continue. I did continue, and did not see the friend again.

I am telling you this, so that maybe you will understand where the pro photog is coming from. He may have very well been in the same situation before, where he was told the "friend" would stay out of the way, but didn't. While his e-mail reply may have been a bit harsh, I feel it is warranted.

[samnz]

I did a wedding yesterday in Kaikoura (200km+ from home loc). Only 50 guests. 2 pro photographers were among the guests and they were quick to introduce themselves before the ceremony. We were all like 'old mates' having a good laugh even though we'd never met before.

They were freelance sports/events photogs with D200/1DM3 - respectively. They did plenty of group/couple shots on the side (along with the other point-and-shoot guests) and didn't interfere with my objectives...not once. I didn't feel intimidated by their equipment, jobs or expertise. I accepted that we were there to enjoy the wedding (sloshed by 5.30pm! :) ) - and not to supplement their portfolios with photos of wedding guests 'acting up'.

All-in-all, I am fine with these types of arrangements...as long as my travel is paid for, my room has a double bed and my cheque is signed and dated ;) Let's see a guest receive that type of treatment! :)

[ThomGascoigne]

I dont know why you told him you were a pro photographer? And at the end of the day he is in the right to defend what he is doing but he does sound like a complete tosser and also he needs to understand your point of view and the point of view of the family member you are helping. But yes there is no good that can come out of taking the same shots as he is and I don't think thats the idea of you being there.

Your there to take candid stuff that he wont be shooting while he is doing "formal setups"

I hate weddings for these reasons. I won't be paid to photograph them. I hate being asked to do a few extra shots here and there because it gets on the paid photographers nerves. And I think it is rude.

I don't see any problem whatsoever in taking candid shots though and I think if the photographer thinks he's ego can let him get overly defense and have a go at the client he has needs to wake up to him self and be professional.

[Michael_Lambert]

Well the event went off with out a hitch.

Turned out that the hired pro was hired till 9pm and then had an extension option to go till midnight if the bride wanted which they did not need.

I showed up at the brides how as asked from 8am - 11:30 at which point my gear was packed up and the hired pro showed up at 12 noon to do the brides formals.. at that point i went home and got myself dressed with the wife and kid and returned at 2 to catch the bus to the ceremony.

At the ceremony i pulled the camera out for a few shots from the back of church from my seat with out anyone knowing.. the pro was up front doing his thing.

Got on the bus and to the hall, we got there they bride and party went off with the pro as they did street shots i went in and took some setup shots and again stayed out of the way..

Through out the night i shot some simple shots of the toast and walked around doing candids of the dance floor like they asked for. playing a game of hide and seek avoiding the pro like the plaug :) Ensuring i was no in any of his shots or anywhere near him where he could pick me out.

8:30 came along and he told the bride that he had a 1/2 hour left did they want the extention which they did not need as they staged all the shots already all he would have been doing is candid stuff which was covered by me and the million point and shoots. He then also made the comment to her that he was sorry her other pro did not show up that he had no intentions of scaring me away he just wanted to make his point clear.

She replied letting him know that i was there and i got the shots she wanted and was pleased it went smoothly.

9pm he was packing up so i went over with camrea in hand and introduced myself, complimented him on his style, and really liked the way he was able to take charge as this family is difficult and he was amazing with the kids.

Well he kind of look dumbfounded and said "Your a photographer" and i kind of chuckled and said yes why do you ask. His reply " well sorry no offense i would never have thought of you as a photographer" i asked why and his reply "Well again no offense but your kind of a big guy for photography, Photography is a very strenuous activity"

I kind of was pissed, however smiled and said to him "Have a nice evening, safe drive home."

Now the weird/funny part.. I was approached by many family members as the hired pro was shooting using a Panasonic DMC-L10 with a couple of Olympus lens, i know nothing about this camera or lens however a number of family members approched me asking about it and freaking out thinking the photographer was using a ****ty camera one referred to it as a "Best buy giveaway camera" I replied to everyone who showed concern that having a well knowing expensive camera does not mean you will get better photographs that while the equitment helps the lack of skill is what would kill your work.. I told them i don't know about this camera however a SLR in the hands of someone with lots of experience and skill is all that matters not what type of slr it is :D

Anyways, i am just downloading the images now so i hopefully will have some to share, nothing special again just candid stuff,.

[ThomGascoigne]

Oh man he sounds like such a douche bag!

And on top of all that he was using a Lumix.. WTF?

I'd be interested to hear how the pro's photos turn out.

[Michael_Lambert]

Well i was not going to base the Lumix at all, As i am a belieaver that someone with the skill and talent that is required to shoot weddings professionally could do it i am sure with just about anything.. However i was kind of suprised to see the gear he was using.. the Lumix body, Olympus lens and Vivatar flash.

[ThomGascoigne]

I just cant get my head around it. He has such attitude and such a egotistical "I'm a pro" and he's using that gear?

I am judging this guy by what you've said. And I think someone that is a pro that gets paid to shoot weddings should be using at-least Nikon, Canon or higher.

I've got a Lumix P&S and I hate it!

[Michael_Lambert]

My pictures can be seen here. (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6609115#post6609115)

[Nicole Faith]

Well I feel he was very unprofessional in his email and in the comments he made to you. It's one thing to be territorial, but it's another thing to insult you about it before anything even happens. You were obviously making the effort to contact him before the event and straighten things out and he just got on the defensive. I think you did more then a fine job of dealing with him and not just loosing your head. The comments he made about sports photography and the idea that you would just loose your professionalism at the last minute is absolutely rude and uncalled for. And then to assume that due to your height, size, race or anything else - he couldn't picture you as a photographer. How f-ing rude! Good for you!

[collierportraits]

lol. Ok, Michael, forget everything I said before, except the part about being sure that everything would go smoothly based on the fact that you've got a great attitude.

A Lumix? Was he a low budget guy? Sorry, and I understand that a 'pro' can create great images with most any camera, but what do we use when we know we have to get the job done? Well, for me, it's not a Lumix, although I have a P&S Lumix that I love and use for family stuff cuz it fits in a shirt pocket.

I'm sorry that I tried to defend his POV. I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and it didn't seem like he deserved it. He just seems like he was a jerk from the word go and I hope his photos aren't as sorry as his attitude. However, I'm impressed with the way you handled yourself. Good job! ;)

[Michael_Lambert]

They are not low budget, like i said in a previous post i found there prices to be some what higher than the norm around here. However they where found at the wedding show locally in toronto and where picked out for the ability to shoot great Candid styles of shooting. The bride and groom wanted alot of Candid / no posed style of shoots done and spent the weekend at the bridal shows going through everyones portfolios untill they found what they wanted in these guys.

I did make it a point to get up nice and close to see the hard ward they where using, just because i really like seeing what people shoot with.

This is what he was using.

http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/lens/dea/products/lens/50-200_28-35/index.asp

The Olympus was on most of the time in the church and doing the formals out side, then in the reception they had on the i guess its the kit lens (LEICA 14-50mm / F3.8-5.6 / MEGA O.I.S. lens.)

and a Vivitar 285HV flash.

Why i found this amusing was because the photog kind of got annoyed with wedding planner as he had started to fall behind a little in there time frames and when it was said to him he kind of freaked and made the comment "I have 300 Carrer weddings under my belt, i have never once missed a shot and don't plan on tonight being my first!"

And i guess the other thing i found amusing was how he could not spot me or did not see me the whole day.. Yes i am a big guy ( 6'1 350 pounds ) and carrying my 1D Mark3 with either my 70-200 2.8 or 17-40 F4 with my 580EXII attached.. I mean its not something that can easily be conciled.

[PhotoMatte]

As a professional wedding photographer, I read this post with some interest. I often have family members who like to shoot over my shoulder (although, since I'm 6'3", they usually shoot under my shoulder!) during weddings. This doesn't bother me at all; I've already been paid in full before the wedding even starts so if the couple ends up with some great shots that were done for free, by a friend or family member, all the better for them. It's their wedding, after all, and they should have as many good images as they can. My only worry is when someone is right behind me during the posed shots; a lot of people will naturally look at the family member and not at me...when the couple gets back their images, everyone's looking in a different direction!
But, for the most part, family and friends don't bother me. I've had two weddings where the bride's father was a professional photographer, as a matter of fact, and that was a little stressful. My only advice to amateur shooters is to keep on shooting! Often times the only difference between them and myself is that I get paid:-) Well, maybe not that often, but I have seen a number of very well-made amateur images.
Just remember, a great camera doesn't make a great photographer but a poor camera can make anyone look bad.



So a couple of months ago my wifes sister asked me to photograph there wedding. From the readings on these forums and such and with our newborn there was just no way i could do it, that and i really dislike working for family so i suggested to her to hire a professional who does it for a living.

She asked me at that point if i could "Help out" when needed so i asked her what she meant by that and she said just at times when the hired pro was not around, or if he was shooting one thing if i could do other things. Mostly she is looking for me to just walk around and do the candid stuff, most of her family would be alittle more open and out going towards me so she knows i might pull off some better shots. That and she has asked that i come by first thing in the morning.

Her hired pro is working 14 hours ( 10 am to 12 midnight ) there ceremony is at 2pm. So she has asked that i drop by first thing in the morning and catch some of the family anitcs that are bound to happen untill the photographer shows up and then shot some more when he leaves to go to the grooms.

Well this is where the issue comes, The photographer was over the other day to go through what formal shots they want and to get the schedual of events so he does not miss anything, He seen on the table some poster size prints that i shoot of them for there engagement which i did last week only because they did not book the studio when they booked the wedding and then could not fit them in when they relised the engagments where not included.

So, the photographer complimented them on the shots and asked who did them. She said i had and he said he was glad she could find someone on short notice, She told him that i was her brother inlaw and that i would actually be helping out at the wedding as well. Well aparently he did not look too happy about it, He snardly remarked that in the contract it does state they can not have any other hired pros, that if addional people are required they would supply them at addional cost.

She told him i was not hired that i was just family and i would stay completely out of his way ( Which i completed planned on doing ) and that i was primarly going to be only doing shots when he is not there to ensure everything is covered, and just walking around family candid stuff.

He came accross to her kind of abrubt and told her that it was her responsibility to ensure all family and guest where not to be around while they are doing the formal shots that he was not being paid to setup formal shots for family and friends to shoot it.

He then asked her what kind of gear i would be using, and she really does nto know much but told him that she does not know the model but knows its canon and that i paid almost 10grand for it.. I am guess that he is worried about me stealing his staged shots and them getting the prints from me stealing the money out of his hands, Which keep in mind i would not do..

She has asked me to talk to the photographer the day off and try and ease the tension

My question is, Where does he get the right to go off like this. Every wedding i have been to the bride and groom are swarmed with point and shoots, and while its very annoying it happens how can you sit there on there day and say they have to ensure no one snaps a shot of his work, and while i am sure he may be annoyed that i would be there.. it was made clear to him why i was there and what i would be doing and again have no intentions of getting in his way.

Aside from leaving my camera at home which some might suggest, what do you all think is the best way to approach this?[/QUOTE]

[joedlh]

I see a few things going on here.

#1. The hired photographer seems a bit "techy" about anybody competing with him. He has a valid concern with competition from AWEC's (anybody with an expensive camera) who can ruin his setups by shouting to the subjects to "Look here." And since his business is his lifeblood, he is rightly concerned about (1) not getting fully paid, as he explained, (2) having to fight off another pro whom he suspects was asked to do the same wedding.

#2 on the other hand, he seems to be overreacting. One senses that perhaps he feels threatened by the possibility that you will get better shots, which might result in some distasteful interchanges when he tries to get paid.

#3 Having observed the above, it seems to me that your side has acted in a somewhat bone-headed fashion. To whit: Why did your relative have your poster sized prints for display when she was talking contract? Why did you not settle with just a phone call or an e-mail message -- or better yet, nothing at all. Doing both suggests to somebody who doesn't know you that your are pushing a little too hard. Why did you or your relative find it necessary to tell the photographer that your equipment was worth $10,000? Why did you tell him that you're a professional sports photographer?

It seems to me that, while you doth protest greatly, there's a bit of ego-involvement going on here. And it's entirely unnecessary. You have nothing to prove to the pro. The entire episode could have been avoided if your relative had simply squirreled away the posters that drew his attention. As a professional, he would have expected a score of drunken guests brandishing Rebels getting under foot, and had developed ways to deal with them. I doubt he would have made an issue if you showed up with your 1D and a white lens as long as you stayed out of the way. Just don't bring the tripod.

At the very least, your relative could have told him that she had secured the services of a second shooter -- using that exact term -- and if he didn't like it, then the deal was off. That would suggest that you were somebody who knew his position.

[Michael_Lambert]

Joe,

I have no idea why they say what they say.

The posters where out because they where preparing for there wedding and being worried about the feelings of a photographer i am sure where last on there list. The hired pro had the opportunities to shoot there engagement but did not jump on it, it happens i guess.

you don't have to have AWEC to ruin setup shots, as there where plently of kids with P&S cameras yelling look at me, typically the guy with the expensive camera can find there way behind the photog to get the shot they want as others shared.

There was nothing bone headed about it, Contracts where all signed this was days before the wedding when they where going over schedule's. When it was mentioned that pretty much the pro only has to worry about the bride and groom and family, that she has a brother inlaw ( Me ) who is a photographer who will wonder the tables shooting the candid stuff. Brides choice, why would she pay good money for someone to do what a 200 other guest are going to do anyways.

It was at that point he freaked out and brought up the fact of having another hired pro in this case a second shooter would fall into there and that would breach there contract and he would leave.

It was me who after the bride freaked out and was worried Called the pro with now awnser and then emailed the pro as you can read in this thread. Why the value of the gear was brought up is beyond me but now knowing what they where shooting with i can see there concern.

The fact that i brought up being a professional sports photographer was to ease his mind and defend my professional ethics when he made it clear i would not act professionally.. admitting i knew nothing about wedding photography and had her hire a wedding pro which is why he was there. I needed to make it VERY clear to him in anyways i could that i was not a hired pro and there where no other hired pros at the wedding cause i had the feeling that they would jump ship at the first sign of a pro and wanted the bride ( my sister inlaw ) to have lots of anything incase she needed it.

I walked around the place hundreds of times.. Ran in to 2 Nikon D3's, 3 Canon 40D's, 2 Canon 30's and a couple of sonly SLR's and none of them where professionals or so they said, i think people need to relise that P&S's are slowly disappearing and your everyday guy is picking up SLRS and alot are picking up the best they can afford.

[form]

Many wedding photographers make a lot of their money off the prints - if they do, anyone with comparable images is a threat. I think it's perfectly fair for them to feel threatened if that's their livelihood, because others are literally taking money out of their hands.

Those who get all the money for the shooting itself before or after the shoot and are not profiting from additional prints, or those who have a setup like off-camera radio-triggered lighting that does not benefit another photographer taking photos (I'm both), don't have as much to be concerned about: The big difficulty for me is if the other photographer directly interferes with my ability to get a shot by being in the wrong spot, being in my way, or attracting the eyes in a posed formal shot. I have reason to be bothered by these things and to request that they move out of the way or allow me to draw the attention.

Plenty of wedding photographers have clauses permitting them to leave if another pro photographer is hired or present to do photography there - it cuts into their profits or their popularity, especially if the competition does a good job. It's threatening because it's business and money to us, even if it's not to you, the relative who does it for free. Like it or not, any shot you do that the bride likes may detract from the client's perception of the paid professional.

All in all, because of the way I price myself, the type of service I offer and the fact that I sell 0 prints in the first, second and third places, I don't run into this problem and other photographers don't bother me - as long as they don't cause detriment to the images I take. But keep in mind that I'm a budget photographer.

[fall13quip]

Michael majored in creative writing.

[Chris71]

Michael majored in creative writing.

Your gonna go with that as your first post on the forums?:D

Anyway, Michael, I am glad everything worked out for you. You handled the situation with class.

[cdifoto]

Dude, is there something in the water up there?

On the plus side, the wedding went relatively well and you didn't have any close encounters with underage bridesmaids in Wicked Weasels.

[Michael_Lambert]

Michael majored in creative writing.

Anything is possible, however if i had i think i would have better grammer and spelling :D

Welcome to POTN :D

[ThomGascoigne]

Well this has gone to ****..

[Michael_Lambert]

I can see where he is coming, although like most i would see this as he just regesitered and its his first post so its kind of questionable.

However i can agree that if i had not actually lived through what i have written and had the family and friends there to back me up i too would be questioning my own mental state :D

Everything went off with out a hitch, I am sure the photogs using there lumix cameras and the live view operation pulled off great shots. I can see where the live view saves one the knees as they did not ahve to bend down for any shots just tilt the swival screen and shoot.

[Karizmatik]

Wow! I just read through all of this and was amazed.

I mean, I can understand to a degree - I can't STAND people that are stupid enough to know there is a Pro Photog' hired for an event, yet still think they're Mr. Pro with their newly acquired KMart camera and still jump in the isle as the bride is walking up it.. yes.. IN the isle.. I sometimes want to beat them with my camera.

BUT.. in saying this. I am ALWAYS respectable to guests - I have even in the past noticed I was in a guests way, and have apologized, smiled and stepped aside to let them take a shot.. You should see their faces.

The way this guy handled the situation is very, very unprofessional though.

My heart would definitely skip a beat if I was lugging around a Lumix and you showed up with all that Canon gear though Michael haha.

[taxsux]

Yes i am a big guy ( 6'1 350 pounds ) and carrying my 1D Mark3 with either my 70-200 2.8 or 17-40 F4 with my 580EXII attached..



Nice with an attitude that douche has, I would have made sure he saw those big **** off white lenses.

[DDCSD]

Interesting story Michael, thanks for sharing your experience.

Michael majored in creative writing.

^^^
The official wedding photog maybe?

[razyl]

Sorry Michael, but your photos aren't that great. In fact, they're fairly poor. You might have got a couple of shots, but enough for a whole wedding or an album?

My criticisms from viewing your extended gallery (http://www.michaellambertphotography.com/murfinweddingphotos/): super harsh flash, blurry shots, overly wide angle used, portrait orientation on-camera flash shots that have significant shadows, poor framing, underexposed shots, overexposed shots, blown highlights (from flash)..... quite frankly these aren't even close to professional photos.

If i was a bride & groom and got this level of shots I'd be severely disappointed. I know that you didn't have all the access and the angles for all the shots, but even so, why did you think you'd do a better job than the pro?

[DDCSD]

To be fair, Michael never said that he thought he was capable of doing a better job than the pro. That is why he told them to hire a pro. He explains this in the first two paragraphs.

He simply agreed to take some candids and other shots that the pro wouldn't be around to shoot.

[Michael_Lambert]

If i was a bride & groom and got this level of shots I'd be severely disappointed. I know that you didn't have all the access and the angles for all the shots, but even so, why did you think you'd do a better job than the pro?

Did you not read the thread? I never said i would do better than a pro which was I told them to HIRE a pro!

As for framing and such, again read the thread i was only taking candid stuff in fact i don't think i looked through my view finder very much just waving the camera around, capturing what the bride and groom wanted.. and just so you know they loved every one i took.

And thirdly the extended gallery was not all shots that i took, in fact family and friends used my camera more that night than i did... So the hired pros would not get pissy.. I had posted the shots i took, Family wanted to see all the shots not just the ones i thought where good which was why i put the other gallery together for them.

[Skrim17]

So how were the shots from the hired pro?

[Michael_Lambert]

They are still waiting on them :(

Originally they where told they would have proofs when they came back from there honeymoon but have now been told they would be ready middle of this week coming.

[Karizmatik]

For someone shooting as a GUEST, I think Michael did a nice job. I have shot as a Guest at friends weddings, and I know I don't put as much thought into it as when I am hired as the events Photographer.

You just get random shots and try to enjoy the day. The best thing about this, is you get Natural shots that the Photographer would not have gotten.

And I'm sure the Bride and Groom would want some laid-back, natural shots that I'm sure the hired photographer wouldn't have got.

[CDG]

I can't STAND people that are stupid enough to think they're Mr. Pro with their newly acquired KMart camera and I sometimes want to beat them with my camera.

I hate that too.