Uneven Horizons and Grad Filters

[blackcap]

I take a lot of sunrise and sunset photos and use my hard edge GND filters religiously. They balance out the shot very well and minimize the amount of PP I need to do.

Most of the time my horizons are flat, or I don't care about silhouetting part of the foreground that overlaps the sky, but I was wondering what the best way of handling very uneven horizons (without silhouetting) where the sun is on or near the horizon?

For example, take this photo of Adam Barker's: http://galleries.adambarkerphotography.com/scenic-summer/IMG_5733.jpg.php

A hard edge GND would leave the mountain tips dark. A soft edge would leave the sun blown out. Would bracketing exposures and blending them have been necessary?

[eddarr]

I am going to guess and say that image is an HDR. The reason I say that is the small amount of sun rays that cross in front of the mountain on the left which I believe is Mt Owen. That can be somewhat hard to do with blended exposures; not impossible but hard.

The other reason is the way the water looks. It has the look of being flattened due to the multiple exposures. I'll bet you could contact the photographer through his website and he may share how the image was taken.

You can also look at a reverse GND but you still have the problem with uneven horizons.

[Laramie]

I'm wondering the same thing. I was recently shooting in Sedona and the rocks presented a problem. Using my GND, the tips of the formations were too dark, but without the filter, the sky was blown.

I guess you can use Scott Kelby's "painting with light" technique and use a layer mask in photoshop, but I don't really like doing a ton of pp.

[eddarr]

I've almost given up on GND's. They are generally more trouble than they are worth for anything other than shots over water. You have more control blending exposures, carry less stuff and save a bunch of money.

[neilwood32]

I havent ever used GND filters - its as easy to do the work in a good PP package merging exposures. The problem as you have noticed is if the horizon is in the slightest uneven, you are left with the choice of under/over exposing parts of the image. That to me isnt a good choice.

Oh and I'm too tight to buy GND's!

[blackcap]

I havent ever used GND filters - its as easy to do the work in a good PP package merging exposures. The problem as you have noticed is if the horizon is in the slightest uneven, you are left with the choice of under/over exposing parts of the image. That to me isnt a good choice.

Oh and I'm too tight to buy GND's!

I had a look at your Flickr page to see some examples, but it doesn't look like you've got your best shots there. Do you have another site with examples of your exposure blending?

[eddarr]

blackcap

This shot was with a 3 stop soft edge GND with the grey starting at the base of the mountain.

http://ericdarr.smugmug.com/photos/282360261_XeFRG-L.jpg

This shot is blended.
http://ericdarr.smugmug.com/photos/282625130_uFMdd-L.jpg

[JCH77Yanks]

I use a soft-edge two stop GND, and if I needed, I augment that with Lightroom's graduated filter.

[Laramie]

I use a soft-edge two stop GND, and if I needed, I augment that with Lightroom's graduated filter.

Is this new in Lightroom 2? Or is this in the original Lightroom as well? I don't remember seeing this feature.

[FlyingPhotog]

Is this new in Lightroom 2? Or is this in the original Lightroom as well? I don't remember seeing this feature.

IIRC, new in LR Ver2

[Laramie]

IIRC, new in LR Ver2

Of course...just one more thing they make you pay and upgrade :)

[blackcap]

I use a soft-edge two stop GND, and if I needed, I augment that with Lightroom's graduated filter.

But wouldn't you get blown out highlights with a 2 stop if, say, the sun is on the horizon?

[JCH77Yanks]

But wouldn't you get blown out highlights with a 2 stop if, say, the sun is on the horizon?

Yes, in which case I'll either choose to silhouette or just blend exposures.

[FlyingPhotog]

Yes, in which case I'll either choose to silhouette or just blend exposures.

Or get a reverse grad filter (for $$$$$)

[JCH77Yanks]

Or get a reverse grad filter (for $$$$$)

I could be wrong, but I think there could be a way to emulate that effect using the LR2 filter. It's definitely not the best way to handle it (the best way will always be to get it right in the camera), but it's a pretty good start...

[FlyingPhotog]

I could be wrong, but I think there could be a way to emulate that effect using the LR2 filter. It's definitely not the best way to handle it (the best way will always be to get it right in the camera), but it's a pretty good start...

I suppose you could start the grad at the horizon and just pull it up.

May have to try that.

[JCH77Yanks]

I suppose you could start the grad at the horizon and just pull it up.

May have to try that.

Okay, I just tried to do that, but you have to use one filter on top of the other to pull it off. You start the first grad at the horizon and pull up until the "bottom half" of the grad covers the area you want to darken. You then start the second grad from the bottom of the photo and stop when the middle line reaches the horizon. When you make adjustments for each one, you decrease exposure for the first one, and increase it for the second. It takes a little of trial and error, but you can get it to work. Maybe Adobe will be so kind as to add more modification options to the grad filter in the next update so we can make it work with only one?

[FlyingPhotog]

Okay, I just tried to do that, but you have to use one filter on top of the other to pull it off. You start the first grad at the horizon and pull up until the "bottom half" of the grad covers the area you want to darken. You then start the second grad from the bottom of the photo and stop when the middle line reaches the horizon. When you make adjustments for each one, you decrease exposure for the first one, and increase it for the second. It takes a little of trial and error, but you can get it to work. Maybe Adobe will be so kind as to add more modification options to the grad filter in the next update so we can make it work with only one?

Maybe they'll migrate a little more of the Grad functionality from Photoshop.

It's a very handy thing to be able to set the percentage for the crossover point or have multiple anchors which can vary in color and transparency.

[neilwood32]

I had a look at your Flickr page to see some examples, but it doesn't look like you've got your best shots there. Do you have another site with examples of your exposure blending?

As it happens i havent got any blended ones uploaded to flickr (in fact i havent uploaded anything to flickr in a long time:o). The vast majority of my shots are still on my hard drive and not published anywhere - a situation i intend to remedy fairly soon!

[DDCSD]

I emailed Adam about a month ago to ask him what techniques he uses in his \scenic\ page on his website. I didn't ask about this particular photo though. This was his response:

Hi Derek--
Apologies for the delayed response. I shoot with Grad NDs and Reverse ND grads all the time. It's pretty rare that I do any HDR work. On occasion, I will manually blend exposures, but only if my grad nd filters are unable to cover the dynamic range when I'm shooting. Thanks for your kind words, and best of luck to you.

[wallybud]

Adams image is most likely a Grad, and it is easily done with a soft edge filter. Depending on the light (which it looks like the foreground was rather bright) he simple started the grad below the base of the mountain...which left him with a 1 stop grad near the top of the tree line a 2 stop grad on most of the mountains and by the time he hits the sky the full 3 stops is in effect.

Seems right to me?

[argyle]

But wouldn't you get blown out highlights with a 2 stop if, say, the sun is on the horizon?

For situations such as this, you'd need a reverse GND...

[blackcap]

For situations such as this, you'd need a reverse GND...

Yes that will cater for the sun on the horizon, but will also darken hills, mountains, and anything else near the horizon, hence my original question.

[wallybud]

Yes that will cater for the sun on the horizon, but will also darken hills, mountains, and anything else near the horizon, hence my original question.

Just to be clear, it may have been a reverse, it may have been a soft edge, regardless...you don't know what the lighting was like while the shot took place...You are trying to reverse engineer a gorgeous shot...also how do you know he didn't take a shot with a GND filter and one only 2 stops lighter just for the tone he wanted from the mountain face and then mask in that area with a large soft brush at like 20% and then 20% and then 20%....masking like that is nearly impossible to notice;)

[blackcap]

Just to be clear, it may have been a reverse, it may have been a soft edge, regardless...you don't know what the lighting was like while the shot took place...You are trying to reverse engineer a gorgeous shot...also how do you know he didn't take a shot with a GND filter and one only 2 stops lighter just for the tone he wanted from the mountain face and then mask in that area with a large soft brush at like 20% and then 20% and then 20%....masking like that is nearly impossible to notice;)

I've emailed Adam to see if I can find out exactly how he took this. Blending sounds like the most likely method to me but I'll report back with what he says.

[Lesmac]

I've almost given up on GND's. They are generally more trouble than they are worth for anything other than shots over water. You have more control blending exposures, carry less stuff and save a bunch of money.

Respectfully disagree, a good set of grads is a must in any landscape photographers bag, and their uses go far beyond 'shots over water'.

Also, it takes seconds to place a grad in the holder, which is a lot less time than messing about blending exposures, and result in a far better image (IMO)

I agree, everyone is entitled to their own way of working, but I felt this viewpoint needed balancing, particularly if there are inexperienced togs reading the thread, I'd hate for them going away with the impression that grads don't have a place in lanscape photography.

[jcothron]

Respectfully disagree, a good set of grads is a must in any landscape photographers bag, and their uses go far beyond 'shots over water'.

Also, it takes seconds to place a grad in the holder, which is a lot less time than messing about blending exposures, and result in a far better image (IMO)

I agree, everyone is entitled to their own way of working, but I felt this viewpoint needed balancing, particularly if there are inexperienced togs reading the thread, I'd hate for them going away with the impression that grads don't have a place in lanscape photography.

I agree. While the ND grads in Lightroom 2 are great tools, there are some things you just can't achieve without doing it with ND's in camera.

This image for example, while I could have easily used Lightroom to balance the exposure between the sky and the water, I could not have shown the movement in the clouds without having a GND on the camera while taking the image:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3493/3274602987_ec22c42e78.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cothronphoto/3274602987/



http://www.flickr.com/photos/cothronphoto/3274602987/

[argyle]

With regard to "balancing" the exposure between foreground and background, you need to remember that the sky will always be brighter than the foreground. Achieving a "perfect" balance just won't look realistic. Once I figure out what my exposure difference is, I normally choose a GND that's 1-stop less (if my exposure difference is 4-stops, I'll use a 3-stop)...in this manner, the sky will appear slightly brighter and the overall scene will tend to look more 'normal'.

[compsteez]

just feather the GND and your transition will be much smoother . on long exposures hold the filter and slightly move it so ur uneven horizon doesnt get under exposed

[wallybud]

I agree with compsteez however you must be very careful on your feathering (weighed down tripod, steady spot, wide lens ( the longer you go the harder it will be to get a tack sharp image)) I was shooting in the woods and feathering a 3 stop on some snow/waterfall shots around 40mm with 2.5 second exposure (roughly) and came home with more than a couple shots (not ruined because of shake but not tack sharp either) that I most likely wouldn't print, post yes...print maybe ;)

with a lot of practice it becomes like second nature, I rarely even bring my lee adapter/holder...should have saved myself all that $$