Do bad photos in 'the media' annoy you?

[adamwynne]

I was perusing Lewis Hamilton's website, and found this photo:

http://www.lewishamilton.com/content/downloads/lewis_charity_0/lewis_charity.jpg

Leaving aside the obvious (should have used multiple exposures to stop the sun being bown out, crop a bit tight to his head, jacket a bit dark....), why on earth didn't they get the hoizon level?

It annoys me a lot (more so since I've been coming to POTN and getting/reading C&C!)

:)

[FlyingPhotog]

It's the nature of learning about something from the inside out. You start to notice things that "John Q Public" probably would never even notice. It's called developing a sense of what makes a good photo and not just a "nice picture..."

I've worked in sports television for nearly 20 years and I see 1001 things during a sports broadcast that no one else around me even remotely notices.

Welcome to the burden of knowledge! ;)

[MJPhotos24]

Welcome to the burden of knowledge!

Ain't that the truth!

I notice every little thing, nothing mom/dad or most clients are looking for. You see blown out highlights, mom sees little Timmy smiling! You see the pupils washed out from direct flash, the regular person doesn't notice at all. You notice an off horizon, the others see a cool shot with the sun peaking over the edge.

Visit www.whattheduck.net (http://www.whattheduck.net) and you'll get to laugh at this type stuff and leave the frustration behind......temporarily. :)

[chauncey]

Bad photo's,,,I worry about the human condition or the condition of the cosmos or
not using spel checker or the myriad of other problems and not "bad photos" :lol:

[neilwood32]

Ain't that the truth!

I notice every little thing, nothing mom/dad or most clients are looking for. You see blown out highlights, mom sees little Timmy smiling! You see the pupils washed out from direct flash, the regular person doesn't notice at all. You notice an off horizon, the others see a cool shot with the sun peaking over the edge.

Visit www.whattheduck.net (http://www.whattheduck.net) and you'll get to laugh at this type stuff and leave the frustration behind......temporarily. :)

+1 for www.whattheduck.net (http://www.whattheduck.net/) - a nice light hearted look at the life of a professional(duck):D

I have to say though - i dont generally notice things like that unless im looking to criteque something - lifes too short!:lol:

[photoguy6405]

Ain't that the truth!

I notice every little thing, nothing mom/dad or most clients are looking for. You see blown out highlights, mom sees little Timmy smiling! You see the pupils washed out from direct flash, the regular person doesn't notice at all. You notice an off horizon, the others see a cool shot with the sun peaking over the edge.

Visit www.whattheduck.net (http://www.whattheduck.net) and you'll get to laugh at this type stuff and leave the frustration behind......temporarily. :)

Heh. Tilted horizons drive me up the wall. :oops:

[OdiN1701]

I'd say the sun is good enough and they should have used some more fill on the subject.

A lot of times - especially in photojournalism, a technically correct photo is not necessary. A lot of times, maybe the exposure is a bit off, or it's not framed perfectly, or it's not quite sharp - but it's there to tell a story and it does it's job that way - that's the primary concern there.

[MJPhotos24]

+1 for www.whattheduck.net (http://www.whattheduck.net/) - a nice light hearted look at the life of a professional(duck):D

I have to say though - i dont generally notice things like that unless im looking to criteque something - lifes too short!:lol:
I have a problem with studying and critiquing everything, even if not sharing with others. Tis a curse, and blessing - you ask why bother but most the time it helps learn. Stupid brain needing something to do:)

[nicksan]

I worry more about shooting sharp Canon boxes and focus charts...;)

[zelseman]

It drives me up the wall when my local paper publishes pictures that are not only compositionally terrible, but terrible to the untrained eye as well. And they are completely oblivious to the fact. Bad photos in the media annoy me...bad.

[Microcosm]

I worry more about shooting sharp Canon boxes and focus charts...;)
Heh, that was good.

I actually noticed this with my school paper. Not that it's going to have amazing photos, but one looked like a cellphone picture of a football game. Nothing really going on in the picture either.. I guess they use what they can get though.

On a more positive note, I've seen photos in the general newspaper that have prompted me to find the name of the photog and look them up. It's not all bad!

[joedlh]

Nope. They make me feel superior. However, we all have shots that we would not be proud to show others.

[shomat]

Leaving aside the obvious (should have used multiple exposures to stop the sun being bown out

Don't forget that there are always many different ways to accomplish and end result, which in the end is all that matters.

[400dabuser]

Would of used a ND filter for that shot or a circular polariser for that

[ssim]

I'd say the sun is good enough and they should have used some more fill on the subject.

A lot of times - especially in photojournalism, a technically correct photo is not necessary. A lot of times, maybe the exposure is a bit off, or it's not framed perfectly, or it's not quite sharp - but it's there to tell a story and it does it's job that way - that's the primary concern there.


This is well said and most definitely the case. Since we are talking about photo journalism and not some formal portrait setting does all the factors in the image have to be perfect to wow the armchair quarterbacks.

I don't know any working journalists that have the time to sandwich exposures like was being suggested by the OP. Not to mention that the watchdogs of the industry have made photographers very uneasy about making any noticeable changes to their published images.

I'm sure that there are many a shot that could be done better but they are being published small, if at all. They need to get this one done and get across the city to do the next one. It is very rare for these shots to be printed larger than 8x10 and the photographers know that and may shoot accordingly.

I think this is just all too much about next to nothing.

[Riff Raff]

I primarily get annoyed at the photos that show up on CNN with some regularity that were obviously taken on someone's cell phone. Gah. I think I'd actually prefer no photo accompanying the article at all if that's their only option.

[DucoNihilum]

Photojournalism is different than professional portraits. PJ's don't have the same amount of time, even when they are doing environmental portraits, as someone who might be working soely as a portrait photographer.

[kiwichris]

Of course the other thing is the quality of the newspaper itself, I have done some freelance work for local community newspapers, and I am always a bit disgusted at how bad the final photo looks. Another thing, newspapers tend to edit pics themselves, it is not all the photog's fault.

[canonnoob]

honestly... There are alot of times where Ill be walking down the street and I see someone and Im like, hes doing it wrong lol... or something along those lines, or ill see a photo and be like, well this is whats wrong but this is whats right... my girlfriend then proceeds to smack me...

[yogestee]

"Bad photos" is a subject term.. What's bad for some can be brilliant for others.. Photo-journalism is all about impact and not technique.. Impact sells more 'papers/magazines than techinque..

[nphsbuckeye]

As many people have mentioned, PJs don't necessarily shoot for art, as much as history. Although, I've venture to say, most have a photographic background, it can be difficult to create a sound artistic picture. Although, combine both and you're probably working for Nat'l Geo or the like.

[stathunter]

I love seeing crapy photos....................they make my work look breathtaking! :)

[jamesb84]

Heh, that was good.

I actually noticed this with my school paper. Not that it's going to have amazing photos, but one looked like a cellphone picture of a football game. Nothing really going on in the picture either.. I guess they use what they can get though.

On a more positive note, I've seen photos in the general newspaper that have prompted me to find the name of the photog and look them up. It's not all bad!

That's what prompted me to start doing photography for my uni newspaper...they had a guy with a 300D and the kit lens...so I went along with the Sigma 100-300 (and eventually the 300L 2.8) to get better shots.

Then it got ugly with copyright over some shots of a ball...legal proceedings ensued...I left having successfully sued for breach of copyright and they forked over all the profits they made from unauthorised sales.

But yeah...bad photos annoy me. Especially when they use a bad one over one of mine :mad:

James

[stathunter]

But yeah...bad photos annoy me. Especially when they use a bad one over one of mine :mad:

James


Yep that is low. I do work for several photo editors right now who understand good photography -- many times the key is sucking up a bit--- make it easy for them to use you and your work.

[chris78cpr]

To be honest looking at the quality of most the photos published in the media today makes me feel like the art of photography is going further and further downhill every day. On the other hand it makes me feel good knowing that i can offer so much more than people that are currently employed and that bodes well for my future earning potential.

Chris

[Canonswhitelensesrule]

What annoys me at times, is I'll see "ordinary" looking photos by a "known" photographer, and there'll be praises galore!! Yet if anyone here would take, or submit the same, or even better photos, they wouldn't even get a second look because they WEREN'T submitted by a "known" photographer.

Just because someone is a "name" photographer, doesn't mean that EVERY photo they take, or even every photo they have published is so AMAZING. But they get them published because of "WHO" they are at times.

Ok, rant over. lol

[Microcosm]

That's what prompted me to start doing photography for my uni newspaper...they had a guy with a 300D and the kit lens...so I went along with the Sigma 100-300 (and eventually the 300L 2.8) to get better shots.

Then it got ugly with copyright over some shots of a ball...legal proceedings ensued...I left having successfully sued for breach of copyright and they forked over all the profits they made from unauthorised sales.

But yeah...bad photos annoy me. Especially when they use a bad one over one of mine :mad:

James
Oh wow! So it worked out for you in the end then, I'd say?

[FlyingPhotog]

What annoys me at times, is I'll see "ordinary" looking photos by a "known" photographer, and there'll be praises galore!! Yet if anyone here would take, or submit the same, or even better photos, they wouldn't even get a second look because they WEREN'T submitted by a "known" photographer.

Just because someone is a "name" photographer, doesn't mean that EVERY photo they take, or even every photo they have published is so AMAZING. But they get them published because of "WHO" they are at times.

Ok, rant over. lol

And this is different from any other walk of life, how? ;)

Reputation <---> Status

Whether it's Good or Bad often doesn't matter!

Don't forget that old saw that says "Even bad publicity is still publicity..."

[motion_projekt]

I just want everyone to know...this is just my $0.02. Please take it with a grain of salt or whatever the cliche is. =)

cheers // kent

I was perusing Lewis Hamilton's website, and found this photo:

http://www.lewishamilton.com/content/downloads/lewis_charity_0/lewis_charity.jpg

Leaving aside the obvious (should have used multiple exposures to stop the sun being bown out, crop a bit tight to his head, jacket a bit dark....), why on earth didn't they get the hoizon level?

It annoys me a lot (more so since I've been coming to POTN and getting/reading C&C!)

:)

Maybe i'm not processing the thought correctly, but hot does this relate to "the media"?

although i do agree that its not the best photo...

It drives me up the wall when my local paper publishes pictures that are not only compositionally terrible, but terrible to the untrained eye as well. And they are completely oblivious to the fact. Bad photos in the media annoy me...bad.

Then do something about it. Go freelance. just my $0.02. don't just sit there and complain about thats going on.

I'd say the sun is good enough and they should have used some more fill on the subject.

A lot of times - especially in photojournalism, a technically correct photo is not necessary. A lot of times, maybe the exposure is a bit off, or it's not framed perfectly, or it's not quite sharp - but it's there to tell a story and it does it's job that way - that's the primary concern there.

Technically correct photos are always necessary. Would the NYT accecpt a photo that is OOF? no. Would TIME or AP take a photo is is horridly composed? No. These publications/services are poor examples though because all their photographers are good...real good.

I don't know any working journalists that have the time to sandwich exposures like was being suggested by the OP. Not to mention that the watchdogs of the industry have made photographers very uneasy about making any noticeable changes to their published images.

Ethically, altering/excessive processing of an image is a big no-no. I know of photographers that have been fired on the spot for altering images, 'sandwiching' images together, and even dodging the crap out of an image to make it look cool.

I think this is just all too much about next to nothing.

I agree! :lol:

Photojournalism is different than professional portraits. PJ's don't have the same amount of time, even when they are doing environmental portraits, as someone who might be working soely as a portrait photographer.

Where do you get your information from? Portraiture is apart of photojournalism as is hard news, features work, sports and wild art. To name a few of some of the great PJs/Sportsshooters that have wicked awesome portraits are...Vincent Laforet, Doug Mills, Rod Mar, David Burnett, Scott Strazzante, Robert Beck, and Smiley Pool.

It's all about vision...not how much time a person has, not how much processing a person does. These guys have the vision in their head of what they want, and they have the technical know-how to do it. Portraits, IMHO, give the viewer an insight to who the subject is...an exploration of their relation to the human condition if you will...

As many people have mentioned, PJs don't necessarily shoot for art, as much as history. Although, I've venture to say, most have a photographic background, it can be difficult to create a sound artistic picture. Although, combine both and you're probably working for Nat'l Geo or the like.

There are alot of photographers that combine art and information. =) and yes they probably work for National Geographic, NY Times, TIME-LIFE, AP...just to name a few.

That's what prompted me to start doing photography for my uni newspaper...they had a guy with a 300D and the kit lens...so I went along with the Sigma 100-300 (and eventually the 300L 2.8) to get better shots.

can we see some of these better shots? ;-) LOL. What school did you shoot for?

But yeah...bad photos annoy me. Especially when they use a bad one over one of mine :mad:

If it upsets you that they ran a bad photo of yours, why submit it then? If it is a 'bad photo' as you say it is...

[mattograph]

man, that took a lot of work!

[irishman]

I don't agree with the political stance of our local paper, the Arizona Republic(an), but their photographers are absolutely top-notch.

[motion_projekt]

man, that took a lot of work!

i was sitting in the newsroom at hte photo desk, and i was bored. hehe.

[motion_projekt]

newspapers tend to edit pics themselves, it is not all the photog's fault.

at least papers i have worked for and with, all the 'editing' we do is tone for pre-press.

[nphsbuckeye]

Motion - wouldn't it have been easier to just say, I agree. ;)

[TeeTee]

No.

Photographic skill has VERY little to do with being published or recognized in the media field. If anything your original post furthers the point. It is a shame however.

[mattograph]

People think the equation "f/8 and be there" is easy.

The f/8 is easy. The being there is hard.

Remember this photo?

http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/gonzalaz.jpg

It only took 5 months for the shooter to get it.

http://www.ap.org/pages/about/pulitzer/diaz.html

[PhotosGuy]

Many times the "PJ" is actually a writer with a P&S who is doing the work of two people, too. Some I worked with are lucky if/when they come up with a usable image of any sort.

[yogestee]

Many times the "PJ" is actually a writer with a P&S who is doing the work of two people, too. Some I worked with are lucky if/when they come up with a usable image of any sort.

Agreed,, but many PJs were photographers before they were writers.. Tim Page is a classic example..

[mattograph]

Many times the "PJ" is actually a writer with a P&S who is doing the work of two people, too. Some I worked with are lucky if/when they come up with a usable image of any sort.


You will see more and more of this with all of the layoffs and changes in the industry.

Soon, the only PJ's left will be paparazzi!
:shock:

[motion_projekt]

Many times the "PJ" is actually a writer with a P&S who is doing the work of two people, too. Some I worked with are lucky if/when they come up with a usable image of any sort.

that irritates me that they dont send real photogs on the job. sadly its what this world is coming to... :-(

[Bumgardnern]

For me it depends on the day. Some days when I am pissed off like when I am slow I nit pick everyone elses work to death and go hell I shoot better than them why did they get the job instead of me? But normally I just let it slide. Often times it is hard to get a perfect image on a tight deadline. Tonight I shot the CMA awards and got tons what I would normally consider lack luster images but because of the time deadlines, and the tight cramped conditions you make due with what you can get and hope that a some one will pick up the photo.

[yogestee]

that irritates me that they dont send real photogs on the job. sadly its what this world is coming to... :-(

I can only comment on Australia.. Australian newspapers employ both journalists to write and photographers to take photographs as staffers.. This probably due to the Australian press being highly unionised.. There is some demarkation.. But it does happen that journalists take photos and photographers write..

When I was working for a newspaper a fellow photographer and I would contribute to the motoring section of the newspaper.. Once a fortnight we would take a new release motorcycle from a shop, thrash the Bejesus out of it and write an article with photographs we took ourselves.. The story went through the hands of a sub-editor to correct any errors mainly grammatical etc..We did this in our days off and were paid freelance rates :D Another photographer had a fortnightly column reviewing music CDs..

All stories go through the hands of sub-editors for correction which makes it easy for anyone with some writing skills to produce a publishable story.. Photography is more dificult as the photographer needs technical skills to produce the goods and most journalist just don't have those skills..

[PhotosGuy]

thrash the Bejesus out of it and write an article with photographs we took ourselves.. As the F-18 driver said, "I get paid to do this!" :D

The story went through the hands of a sub-editor to correct any errors mainly grammatical etc..We did this in our days off and were paid freelance rates Sounds like the best of both worlds! the photographer needs technical skills to produce the goods and most journalist just don't have those skills.. In a meeting with writers/editors, I offered to help out the writers with some hints for better images. One burst out in tears because what she was hearing was that her pics sucked, which they did, but I wasn't actually saying that. Needless to say, they only sent her out with a camera for grip-&-grin shots after that.

[yogestee]

As the F-18 driver said, "I get paid to do this!" :D

Sounds like the best of both worlds! In a meeting with writers/editors, I offered to help out the writers with some hints for better images. One burst out in tears because what she was hearing was that her pics sucked, which they did, but I wasn't actually saying that. Needless to say, they only sent her out with a camera for grip-&-grin shots after that.

Journalists never went out with a camera.. If the story was picture worthy a photographer went out with the journalist even if they were grip & grin shots.. This had a lot to do with job protection,, hats off to the union..

[61ache]

Some editors pick really crappy images, but let's not give PJs a bad name. I look at the AP's photos of the day and there's always AMAZING photos in there...

[motion_projekt]

AP's photos of the day and there's always AMAZING photos in there...

this is true. in the AP, there is no such thing as i couldn't get the shot. I would like to work for AP as a staffer one day. =)

[yogestee]

Some editors pick really crappy images, but let's not give PJs a bad name. I look at the AP's photos of the day and there's always AMAZING photos in there...

Not if the Pictorial Editor is a photographer..

[motion_projekt]

Some editors pick really crappy images, but let's not give PJs a bad name. I look at the AP's photos of the day and there's always AMAZING photos in there...

Not if the Pictorial Editor is a photographer..

my question is, if there's any doubt of your image being crappy, then why move those images? select the best of the best only.

thats how i roll. ;)

[61ache]

my question is, if there's any doubt of your image being crappy, then why move those images? select the best of the best only.

thats how i roll. ;)

Sometimes, and rarely, it's nice when the story is about a photographer...
http://www.startribune.com/slideshows/31191279.html?elr=KArksi7PhD_iLcCiUo7PhDiLcCiUiD3a Pc:_Yyc:aUU

[yogestee]

my question is, if there's any doubt of your image being crappy, then why move those images? select the best of the best only.

thats how i roll. ;)

One piece of advice my old boss and mentor told me,, "Never show anyone your crap or mistakes and never justify your crap either"..

Something I'll take to the grave with me..

[Algenon]

There are no bad pictures, just under developed imagination

[ssim]

Many times the "PJ" is actually a writer with a P&S who is doing the work of two people, too. Some I worked with are lucky if/when they come up with a usable image of any sort.

This is an interesting point. I have seen a number of advertisements by newspapers lately that are looking for a reporter/photographer and in each help wanted add the emphasis was on the reporter part. I guess they think that it is much harder to learn to write creatively than it is to use a camera.

This is me donning my flame retardant suit for what I am about to say. To some degree we are our own worst enemies. We have accountants, doctors, construction workers all wanting to be a paid photographer on their days off and some newspapers actually employ some of these people. Why, because they can pay them significantly less and they are willing to work for less just to have their name under a photograph. The advent of the digital camera has just made too many people seeking the same thing and are willing to make sacrifices along the way to get there but at the same time are hurting the industry, imo.

Back to my original point here. If we are talking about a large newspaper they most likely have staff photographers but are they are worked pretty hard. In the end what the paper needs is a photograph that factually portrays the event, not a piece of artwork. In many cases it is not the photographer themselves that does the final editing before it hits the print reels, it is an associate in the department as the photographer has uploaded the shoot to the newspaper and is moving on to the next one. If you are talking about small to medium sized newspaper can they financially justify a dedicated photography department. Do they need a photographer to send to the local book store to cover a book signing by an author. A reporter with a reasonably good digital camera will more than likely suffice. As long as the photograph represents the event the newspaper is going to be happy. It all boils down to the numbers as far as these places are concerned. Can they employ the reporter and give him a camera and still satisfy the reading public.

I think alot of people here are getting newspaper photographs confused with portraits that are suitable for hanging on your wall. While you employ the same knowledge to get both, the environment to attain these are at far ends of the spectrum. In the portrait setting you can control everything. Sure I see shots in newspapers that I think could have been done better but then I put it all in context and certainly don't think that it is worth wasting alot of breath on. I also see some damn great work in some of the newspaper and magazines but I don't see many threads about them. Why is it human nature to complain.:rolleyes:

[yogestee]

This is an interesting point. I have seen a number of advertisements by newspapers lately that are looking for a reporter/photographer and in each help wanted add the emphasis was on the reporter part. I guess they think that it is much harder to learn to write creatively than it is to use a camera.

This could also be that many newspapers hire freelancers (photographers) as opposed to staffers.. Having staffers sitting around waiting for something to happen is expensive but hiring freelancers as they need them is much more viable..

Most newspapers (in Australia anyway) belong to a media group where images are shared via an Intranet.. An image taken 4000 klms away in the morning can appear in the evening edition that same day on the other side of the country.. I have seen images taken in Iraq for example an hour before I've viewed them..

[motion_projekt]

Most newspapers (in Australia anyway) belong to a media group where images are shared via an Intranet.. An image taken 4000 klms away in the morning can appear in the evening edition that same day on the other side of the country.. I have seen images taken in Iraq for example an hour before I've viewed them..

this is also true in the USA. My friend is the main freelancer for the New York Times in Hawai‘i. I might also be freelancing for them on an assignment in the near future too. :cool: being a college student i'm pretty stoked about it, yet scared sh!tless

[LMP]

But yeah...bad photos annoy me. Especially when they use a bad one over one of mine :mad:

James

If you're a freelancer then I'm sure you will be aware of the contracts certain agencies have in place with the nationals etc. It's certainly a PITA but when the nationals have paid ££££ upfront to the likes of the big four agencies then 90% of the time they WILL use those images ahead of anyone else...no matter how superior.

Not having a pop, it's just the way the industry is going....certainly from a sports perspective anyway.

[TeeTee]

The photography business (especially in mass media) is more about business than photography. I have no problem with that but it is a shame from an artistic point of view.

[Balliolman]

To OP, I dont get annoyed but simply think "How did that even get considered for publishing let alone make it to press!" :confused:

[jamesb84]

If you're a freelancer then I'm sure you will be aware of the contracts certain agencies have in place with the nationals etc. It's certainly a PITA but when the nationals have paid ££££ upfront to the likes of the big four agencies then 90% of the time they WILL use those images ahead of anyone else...no matter how superior.

Not having a pop, it's just the way the industry is going....certainly from a sports perspective anyway.

Just to dredge up an old thread...

I work for an agency covering Premiership/Football League, and we produce some stunning images...most of the time though, the big 4 get the show. Other times, it's a seemingly completely random choice for who they pick.

But yeah, it is a pain that this happens. What happens more with spot news/breaking news is that someone with a P&S or phone gets the show because they offer it to a newspaper for credit instead of my standard fee, plus they'll give over all rights.

I remember about a year ago where a police car was in a bad crash and rolled over smashing up a lamp-post. I sent in a nice set of thumbnails(4 images) and set out my T&Cs over the phone to the night editor and asked what he'd pay. He named his price (which was a little low), I negotiated up by another 25% and we agreed on that, sent my high-res photos off, and checked the paper the next day to see that the guy who'd been stood near me with his mobile phone got the 1/2 page instead.

Typical. So, you either get the "big 4" or "joe public with his P&S"...not much left in the job except for sports...trying to break into a niche market.

James.

[motion_projekt]

Just to dredge up an old thread...

I work for an agency covering Premiership/Football League, and we produce some stunning images...most of the time though, the big 4 get the show. Other times, it's a seemingly completely random choice for who they pick.

But yeah, it is a pain that this happens. What happens more with spot news/breaking news is that someone with a P&S or phone gets the show because they offer it to a newspaper for credit instead of my standard fee, plus they'll give over all rights.

I remember about a year ago where a police car was in a bad crash and rolled over smashing up a lamp-post. I sent in a nice set of thumbnails(4 images) and set out my T&Cs over the phone to the night editor and asked what he'd pay. He named his price (which was a little low), I negotiated up by another 25% and we agreed on that, sent my high-res photos off, and checked the paper the next day to see that the guy who'd been stood near me with his mobile phone got the 1/2 page instead.

Typical. So, you either get the "big 4" or "joe public with his P&S"...not much left in the job except for sports...trying to break into a niche market.

James.

whats horrible is how in a presidential press pool, joe public who hasn't been 'swept' and is 'dirty' can get closer to the President then the 'protective pool', that has been 'swept' by the secret service, can. I was in the press pool when US President-Elect Barack Obama vacationed in hawaii, and there were people with SLRs and good glass that were allowed to get closer then the press was. very lame.

[ron chappel]

These kinds of discussions always amuse me somewhat.
Just think how a client would feel if they heard most of you arguing how crap their judgment is!

First rule of business -give the market what it wants

(second rule -keep doing those awesome shots anyway .They might see the light ;) )

[motion_projekt]

First rule of business -give the market what it wants

does that mean if the market wants photos for free free free! then we give it to them for free? heh.

[Choccy]

I have a problem with studying and critiquing everything, even if not sharing with others. Tis a curse, and blessing - you ask why bother but most the time it helps learn. Stupid brain needing something to do:)

Yeah why can't it just switch off every now and then and relax.

Choccy...

[elysium]

As I see it, they got to do something I have not and for the amount of time they spend out in the cold fighting for that one picture, I give them respect and credit where it is due.

Doesnt annoy me since PP is always an option not mandatory.