Got 20D and...

[Mike Mars]

My 20D arrived yesterday morning. I have not had much time to look at it added to which the weather has been dull, overcast and damp - yuk! Nothing to post but my initial impressions. I am coming from a D60 which I have had for about three years.

Build quality. I was not overly impressed by this. The 20D feels light. The finish is brushed aluminium which seems to hold dusty marks. My plastic D60 feels more solid and is smooth to touch. The 20D battery door feels flimsy as does the CF door. Likely just what I am used to.

Mounting a lens was a problem - it was so stiff to rotate it. This has since eased a little. My D60 was always just right in this and has not changed. First lens I used was a Sigma 28-70 f2.9 EX DF. Now I was impressed by the speed of AF. Accuracy so far is no better than my D60.

I was going around the house shooting bits and pieces changing ISO etc and all seemed fine. Suddenly, when I went to focus it froze. Poo! The shutter button would not respond. I pressed a few buttons to see whether anything would respond but it would not. I was about to turn it off and on when I accidently pressed the FEL button and the camera came back. Further shooting has not caused it to lockup again but it has become a concern.

It was not long before I noticed a few black bits in the VF. I have one such bit after three years of my D60.

Later, I used my Sigma 105 f2.8 EX. I had heard there might be an ERR 99 with this if it is not a recent copy. But no, it was fine - AF and MF operated as normal. Well for a time... I left the camera on the table for a few hours whilst I got on with other things. I came back to it later and all I got was a series of ERR 99 messages and a locked camera. Turned the camera off and on no luck; took out the battery, no luck; dis- and mounted it again, no luck. Very strange. Suddenly deciding not to work - schizoid. Still works fine on my D60.

Image quality. I used ACR and RAW Shooter Essentials (RESE). Looking at ISO 1600 shots jpeg and RAW I can see banding in the shadows - not just deep shadows and not simply viewing the blue channel. It gets less as ISO is reduced. Surprise, noise reduction is not a good as I expected. I can shoot with my D60 up to ISO 800 (ISO 1000 is top on D60) and get as good a result as the 20D at ISO 800 and no banding whatsoever. I'll do some tests to confirm this.

So, at the end of my first day I have somewhat mixed feelings. Still, I have 30 days in which to decide. Hopefully, these amount to just a few teething issues.

[drisley]

What is wrong with the camera being light? As far as I'm concerned, the lighter the better, as long as it's metal and not plastic. For some reason people want their monitors, tv's cellphones, etc, to be lighter, but their cameras to be heavier. I've never figured this out.
I've never had any banding, even at ISO3200, UNLESS I underexpose the shot and try to recoup later in software. Other cameras will exhibit the same, but the 20D's noise is more patterned than random.
Here is an ISO800 (http://www.mts.net/~lftbrain/20d/img_4250.jpg) shot, and another (http://www.mts.net/~lftbrain/20d/img_4286.jpg), and an ISO1600 (http://www.mts.net/~lftbrain/20d/iso1600_hockey.jpg) crop. I see no banding (very little noise too).
I also have never had a single lockup or ERR99, and I've got one of the very first 20D's from September. I think you might have a bad camera.

[Mike Mars]

What is wrong with the camera being light? As far as I'm concerned, the lighter the better, as long as it's metal and not plastic. For some reason people want their monitors, tv's cellphones, etc, to be lighter, but their cameras to be heavier. I've never figured this out.
I've never had any banding, even at ISO3200, UNLESS I underexpose the shot and try to recoup later in software. Other cameras will exhibit the same, but the 20D's noise is more patterned than random.
Here is an ISO800 (http://www.mts.net/%7Elftbrain/20d/img_4250.jpg) shot, and another (http://www.mts.net/%7Elftbrain/20d/img_4286.jpg), and an ISO1600 (http://www.mts.net/%7Elftbrain/20d/iso1600_hockey.jpg) crop. I see no banding (very little noise too).
I also have never had a single lockup or ERR99, and I've got one of the very first 20D's from September. I think you might have a bad camera.

Many people like some weight, heft to certain items since it makes them feel durable, valuable, etc. Some like weight in a camera to aid hand holding. Obviuosly, there is a balance to be struck for each individual. Really, though, I am contrasting my 20D against my D60. I might ask why you prefer metal to plastic... I do not mind either. There is plastic and quality plasitc.

Yes, the noise patterning and lockups seem to be the issues for the 20D. Just as AF was for the 10D. They all have something. It is just whether one is unfortunate enough to be afflicetd with it. Great if not, but poo street if you are. I might, as you say, have a faulty unit. It is brand new - as far as I can tell. I'll give it a little while and see how I feel. It can take a little time to adjust to new items.

[mbze430]

sounds like you need to return the 20D. If you are unhappy with it, its best to return it before your "trial" period is over. Consider yourself a 1D series, it fits what you are looking for. At least the built and weight. Not sure if those Sigma lens will work well with it, but it's worht a try.

[scottbergerphoto]

Sorry you are having trouble with your new 20D. Make sure you have the latest firmware installed. V1.1.0
http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=DownloadDetailAct&fcategoryid=314&modelid=10464#firmware

FYI, "Schizoid" or "schizophrenic" have nothing to do with split personality. People who are "schizoid", prefer to be alone and have few if any close friends. People who are "schizophrenic" have a split between their thoughts and their emotions. They show no emotion when talking about emotional events or laugh for no reason.They can hallucinate, be delusional, and communicate poorly. They don't have a split personality as people often confuse it with.
Scott

[Mike Mars]

Hi Scottbergerphoto,

Sadly, it came with the latest firmware (1.1) installed - so no fix from that :(.

I did not use the term 'schizoid' in its psychological sense. Rather, I used it in its colloquial sense about a camera. Nor did I mean to disparage those who suffer from schizophrenia.

[MDJAK]

Mike, sorry to hear about your troubles. I went from the 10D to the 20D. Mine locked up only once when changing lenses when I left the camera on. (I have only canon lenses if that matters.) That was with the old firmware. After updating it, it never happened again. My pictures taken with 800 and 1600 iso seem to exhibit less noise than my 10d.

Good luck sorting it out. I personally wouldn't wait 30 days, I'd bring it in for exchange now. Some stores, even if they have a 30-day return policy, also limit the number of pictures taken. Be careful.

[drisley]

I should also mention that the lockups are probably the lenses' faults, not the camera's fault.
It's a known fact that Sigma lenses often have combatibilty problems with new releases of Canon's cameras (that usually result in lockups and ERR99's). The Sigmas are supposed to be 100% compatible, but as mentioned, this isn't usually the case with each new Canon release. That is why people have to send their lenses in to Sigma to be "re-chipped" all the time. Even you mentioned you had heard about problems with that particular 105mm Sigma lens. This is one of the main reasons I dont own a Sigma lens. Sigma seems to be the only 3rd party lens manufacturer with compatibility problems like this. I dont often hear of similar stories with Tokina or Tamron.
About the auto-focus, even a 1 series isn't much more accurate than a D60 (when shooting a stationary object). But as you mentioned, the 20D is much faster at AF, and this will equate into much more accurate shots when shooting moving objects ;)
I've owned both the 300D and the 20D, and the metal of the 20D is much more solid feeling than the plastic of the 300D, and much less prone to scratching.

[scottbergerphoto]

Nor did I mean to disparage those who suffer from schizophrenia.
And I didn't think that you did. ;)
Regards,
Scott

[Chazs]

And I didn't think that you did. ;)
Regards,
Scott

We don't either. ;)

[SeanH]

Sounds like you should just stick with the D60.....LOL.......Maybe save the 1500 bucks and get some good glass (Cannon), Then move up later. And maybe rent before you buy??

IMO the 20 is a great camera, it's just to bad you have had all those problems........I'd be pissed too!

[cactusclay]

I think I finally figured out what was wrong with me.

[dgup]

My 20D arrived yesterday morning. I have not had much time to look at it added to which the weather has been dull, overcast and damp - yuk! Nothing to post but my initial impressions. I am coming from a D60 which I have had for about three years.

Build quality. I was not overly impressed by this. The 20D feels light. The finish is brushed aluminium which seems to hold dusty marks. My plastic D60 feels more solid and is smooth to touch. The 20D battery door feels flimsy as does the CF door. Likely just what I am used to.

Mounting a lens was a problem - it was so stiff to rotate it. This has since eased a little. My D60 was always just right in this and has not changed. First lens I used was a Sigma 28-70 f2.9 EX DF. Now I was impressed by the speed of AF. Accuracy so far is no better than my D60.

I was going around the house shooting bits and pieces changing ISO etc and all seemed fine. Suddenly, when I went to focus it froze. Poo! The shutter button would not respond. I pressed a few buttons to see whether anything would respond but it would not. I was about to turn it off and on when I accidently pressed the FEL button and the camera came back. Further shooting has not caused it to lockup again but it has become a concern.

It was not long before I noticed a few black bits in the VF. I have one such bit after three years of my D60.

Later, I used my Sigma 105 f2.8 EX. I had heard there might be an ERR 99 with this if it is not a recent copy. But no, it was fine - AF and MF operated as normal. Well for a time... I left the camera on the table for a few hours whilst I got on with other things. I came back to it later and all I got was a series of ERR 99 messages and a locked camera. Turned the camera off and on no luck; took out the battery, no luck; dis- and mounted it again, no luck. Very strange. Suddenly deciding not to work - schizoid. Still works fine on my D60.

Image quality. I used ACR and RAW Shooter Essentials (RESE). Looking at ISO 1600 shots jpeg and RAW I can see banding in the shadows - not just deep shadows and not simply viewing the blue channel. It gets less as ISO is reduced. Surprise, noise reduction is not a good as I expected. I can shoot with my D60 up to ISO 800 (ISO 1000 is top on D60) and get as good a result as the 20D at ISO 800 and no banding whatsoever. I'll do some tests to confirm this.

So, at the end of my first day I have somewhat mixed feelings. Still, I have 30 days in which to decide. Hopefully, these amount to just a few teething issues.
The Black spots can be cleaned using the "clean" function on the menu.
I never had a problem with my 20D until this weekend when I was on a long shoot (600+ shots) and I got the lock up. I am not sure what the "FEL" button is but I finally got it to function again by changing lenses. It locked up with my 70-200 EL-IS lens. The 1.1.0 firmware update is supposed to cure the lockup problem. What gives? Does anyone have a suggestion.

[timmyquest]

The Black spots can be cleaned using the "clean" function on the menu.

You are aware that the cleaning isnt automatic...

[Europa]

Send it back if you don't like it.

[Raj]

Image quality. I used ACR and RAW Shooter Essentials (RESE). Looking at ISO 1600 shots jpeg and RAW I can see banding in the shadows - not just deep shadows and not simply viewing the blue channel. It gets less as ISO is reduced. Surprise, noise reduction is not a good as I expected. I can shoot with my D60 up to ISO 800 (ISO 1000 is top on D60) and get as good a result as the 20D at ISO 800 and no banding whatsoever. I'll do some tests to confirm this.


Another dumb question.
What is banding .... ? Also you said noise performance is not as good as you expected & you will do some tests.
Is there any standard test to check if the noise level is as expected or not ? Or you do a visual check ?

EDIT: Googled for banding & found it out :-)

[Mike Mars]

Another dumb question.
What is banding .... ? Also you said noise performance is not as good as you expected & you will do some tests.
Is there any standard test to check if the noise level is as expected or not ? Or you do a visual check ?

EDIT: Googled for banding & found it out :-)

Just to confirm. Banding is pattern noise most often in the blue channel (to a much lesser extent appears in the red channel) and increases as the ISO is increased. It can be seen by some at higher ISOs in RGB shots. Do a search on www.dpreview.com on John Sheehy. He gives about the best explanation of the problem. He also reckons that it is fixable. It will be interesting to see whether the new 350D shows the same problem. Shots I have seen from it, so far, do not. Maybe this was why Canon opted for a new sensor.

[JeM]

I updated from the d60 to 20D, I can honestly say the 20d is three times the camera the d60 is.

[Mike Mars]

Hi, thanks for the replies.

I got a new copy of the 20D and all now seems well. Image-wise it performs as well as those I have seen elsewhere in reviews, etc. Noise is as expected. Less than my D60, except at ISO 100-200 where the D60 does very well. Putting both through C1 Pro at say ISO 800 shows little difference but that's C1's processing. No lock-ups so far. The other differences were simply me getting used to a new camera.

I put the D60 away and now use the 20D and it feels good. It is very responsive and very quick to focus. It is well built too. I like the multicontroller for the focus point selection. I use CF4-1 to separate focus and exposure. I wish they'd put the ISO value in the VF since on a camera that encourages using different ISO settings it would be very useful.

I have sent my Sigma 105 EX back to Sigma for rechipping. It only costs the carriage both ways.

The black bits I mentioned in the VF were not dust on the sensor - cannot see that in the VF anyway - but bits on the prism and/or mirror. A good blowing would likely have removed them.

[Marvinspu36]

Glad to see you were able to get a new, good, copy. It is a great camera. I'm still learning to use mine, but so far I really love it.


Happy shooting...

[drisley]

Putting both through C1 Pro at say ISO 800 shows little difference but that's C1's processing.
I agree.
I find that Adobe Camera Raw 2.4 produces the cleanest high ISO images of all processors, although at a loss of very slight, almost insignificant detail.
Funny thing is that back when I had the 300D and used C1 Pro, the reverse was true. ACR produced the most noise. Just goes to show ACR has come a long way.