POTN G-Series Speed Challenge Rules -- Master List [Archive]

Don Ellis

26th of February 2005 (Sat), 07:22

The discussion that follows is old news. For the current rules to the G-Series Speed Challenge, please go to
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=113480

Or read them in the latest challenge.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There has been some question about how much hosts can alter the challenge rules. The answer is, They can't. The only control a host has is choosing the topic and setting the boundaries for acceptable/unacceptable photographs.

We need a set of rules that doesn't keep shifting challenge by challenge. So I've listed the rules below in Black and what the Host can change in Red.

Please have a look. Changes can certainly be made in the rules AFTER DISCUSSION AND CONSENSUS IN THIS THREAD.

If you'd like changes -- or want to see the rules remain the same -- now is the time to say something.

Cheers,

Don

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

POTN G-Series Speed Challenge #XX - [SUBJECT]

Challenge #XX is [TOPIC and any provisions, parameters, exclusions, etc.]

To submit, click "Post Reply" and put your Photo Name in the Subject Line. Don't forget your Camera Model.

Post until Sunday midnight GMT, [DATE].

[Name of host]
_____________________________________________

Please consider turning on Private Messaging in your profile.
This will allow the host to contact you about winning or ineligible photos. You turn this feature on by clicking "User CP, Edit Options, Enable Private Messaging" (about a third of the way down the page). Thank you.
_____________________________________________

Photo Submissions

1. Camera -- photos must be taken with a Canon G-Series Camera (G1,G2,G3,G5,G6) or Pro 1.

2. Time -- any on-topic photo taken at any time is eligible, although photos that have won other competitions should NOT be entered.

3. Size -- photo must be EXACTLY 640 pixels on the longest side, with NO BORDERS. Odd-sized photos ineligible.

4. Post-Processing -- do whatever you like and the host will decide if it works.

5. Posting --

ONE PHOTO per photographer in each challenge.
Photo Name in the message subject line.
Camera model.6. Commenting by Photographers -- While name and camera are all that are required, you're welcome to add any hints, story, special techniques, location, EXIF data.

7. No Commenting by others -- When the posting is closed, comments can be made in this thread.

Hosting

1. The Challenge Host is the winner of the last challenge.
2. Choose a topic and list any special rules -- but DO NOT POST a photo.
3. Post the topic in a thread with this title: “POTN G-Series Speed Challenge #XX -- [TOPIC]”
4. At the end of competition, choose a Winner and two Runners-up and explain why the photos were selected. Comments on other photos are nice but not required.
5. Post these in a thread titled “POTN G-Series Speed Challenge #XX -- Winners.”
6. Winner starts with Rule #1 above.
7. If the winner can't be contacted and doesn't respond by Tuesday midnight GMT, the second-place winner will host the challenge. Etcetera.

Time

One challenge every week, on the following schedule:
New Topic ... Tuesday by midnight GMT.
Posting Starts ... Right after topic is announced.
Posting Stops ... Sunday midnight GMT
Winner Announcement ... Monday by midnight GMT. _____________________________________________

Rationale

Here is my reasoning on certain rules that may be questioned:

Comments by Photographers -- by all means, say what you like about the photo -- other than, "Please, please choose mine." :) These challenges should be a learning experience, not just a bulletin board full of useless photos. If you have a trick to share, please do. If you know there will be obvious questions -- where was this taken, what was the shutter speed, did you use any auxiliary lenses -- it would be great to put them with the photo.

Here's an example of what I mean -- I won a Macro Challenge once upon a time and added information on taking the photo... http://www.pbase.com/ctfchallenge/image/5212644
We're here to help each other.

No Comments by Others -- The original reason for leaving this out was that it would make the thread very long -- 10 shots and 50 comments on the order of "Great job" or "Nice eye."

No Photo Posted by Host -- let the participants interpret the challenge topic.

Speed Challenge -- The idea was to be like Speed Chess -- get it done and get on with life. There are plenty of challenges that go for two weeks. I think the 1-week limit -- especially as the timing allows for photography on the weekend and the rules allow for posting old photos -- adds to the interest.

POTN -- Stands for Photography On The Net and is a nod to Pekka for creating and maintaining this valuable resource.

And that's about all that's on my mind... if you'd like anything to change... or if you'd like to second these rules... now is your chance.

Cheers,

Don

teekay

26th of February 2005 (Sat), 10:48

I think it would be better not to allow comments or explanations until after the contest has been closed and judged. A photograph should stand on their own and the content should be enough to explain what it means - together with the title. The judge should decide whether or not it tells the required story without any explanation.

Question: Are collages permitted - two or more photos combined into one? Personally I think not, but the question might arise.

Otherwise the rules are fine and weekly is perfect.

Raj

26th of February 2005 (Sat), 20:06

BottomBracket

26th of February 2005 (Sat), 23:36

Don, I second all the rules, and thank you for the time to formulate all of it. As with Teekay and Raj I agree that the pics should stand on their own merits, but I would also like to know the circumstances and workflow of the image. This way we will be able to learn how to create similar images, and learn much from each other.

thefly

27th of February 2005 (Sun), 19:54

Don,

I would also suggest adding a list of past topics and winners.

Lee

Don Ellis

20th of March 2005 (Sun), 20:59

After participating in the "Egg" challenge and hosting the "Pencil" challenge -- both of which required that new photos be shot -- I would like to suggest that we require new photos for all future challenges.

I think this would help us focus our energies on creating an appropriate photo for the topic, rather than lazily picking one out of our existing bin. If you haven't got time to shoot, just wait a week -- that's the benefit of the Speed Challenge.

On a participation note, I noticed that the number of entries was equal or greater for these "must shoot" challenges as it was for the previous ones.

What do you think?

Don

teekay

21st of March 2005 (Mon), 10:59

Don Ellis

21st of March 2005 (Mon), 19:22

I would suggest leaving the rules as they are.

Forcing people to take a new photo is not a bad idea but would penalize those who have no time to do it or perhaps are not in surroundings or weather that would permit a particular subject to be shot that week.

Forcing new photos would probably also lead to many subjects being in the "still life" category - probably not the one of choice for most of us.

Teekay
Thanks for your thoughts, Teekay...

Here are some more that I'm copying from the "Pencil" thread...

thefly
I think that the last two challenges worked well as new picture, because they were objects that most people had around the house. Personlly I would like to keep the challenge as new and old pictures allowed. I think that this will allow more people to post and also allow for a broader range of photographs in a weeks time. Just my two cents.

dbump
Regarding new vs. old photos, the point of this for me is to go shoot something, and learn from that, rather than search through my stacks for a hit, but I don't feel strongly about restricting old content. I do like the winner's choice approach (if you want new photos, either mention that in your competition post, or pick a topic that will make it more likely), just because it's more flexible, and keeps us on our toes.

BottomBracket
So far, I find myself in a quandary every week as I have a couple or more concepts that i have to choose from. Perhaps we can be allowed to post two entries per week? I am thinking that the first entry should be a new photograph, and the second could be either old or new. This is just a thought and I have no idea how we would know if a picture is new or not.

IainB
About the rules, this being my first participation, I think the new photo idea is a good one. As others have said, it forces all to get their thinking cap on and go and shoot for a purpose.

Thanks, everyone, for your comments. Looking over all the new/old comments, they seem about evenly split, so I guess we'll just wait for a few more... and then start a poll if necessary.

Cheers,

Don

rich lawrence

22nd of March 2005 (Tue), 06:22

I'm not sure that we should insist on new, It's worked for
me so far and I've learnt as a result of thinking about
and executing pictures of subjects that I wouldn't ordinarily
shoot....however in a group whose greatest no. of participants
has been @15-16 for any one challenge I think it might be
too limiting.....there are going to be weeks when even regular
participants will be unable to enter....hols, work etc.

Participation is severely limited already..(G-series only...
and quite right too!)
:)
and I don't think we should restrict it any further....
the more entries the better. It has been shown that by careful
choosing of the subject participants will almost certainly be
forced to shot 'new',but equally important will be the inevitable
call for our best 'landscapes' and 'sunsets' etc, for which the back
catalogue will be invaluable.

AND NO TITLES>>>>>EVER!!!! ;)

Rich

Raj

22nd of March 2005 (Tue), 22:40

Don,
Reposting here.
IMO as long as the contestant owns the picture & it is shot with a valid camera, then I dont think it is appropriate to debar it just because it was shot in past. If the picture meets the contest criteria & is pertinent then why not allow it ? Agreed that posting "new" pics will make poeple go out & shoot but this may not always be practical.
Just my thoughts.

Cheers
- Raj

Raj

22nd of March 2005 (Tue), 22:45

Also, I am not sure if we should be allowed to describe our pics initially. The judge should be able to visualize what the contestant wants to present. If the picture needs supporitng words to explain it then in true meaning it is a failure. Posting technical details is OK.
This is just my thought, I know very well I am not upto any standards at the moment but I have definately heard the proverb - A picture is worth thousand words :-)

Don Ellis

23rd of March 2005 (Wed), 02:12

If nothing else, we're exercising our brains as much as our shutter fingers -- and we're being pretty civilized about it. :)

Before I comment, let me reinterate that I'm not rabid about NEW-ONLY SHOTS, but they do make some sense. After all, it is a challenge.

Raj wrote:
> IMO as long as the contestant owns the picture & it is
> shot with a valid camera, then I dont think it is
> appropriate to debar it just because it was shot in
> past.

Don't confuse "ownership" with "usage." Just because you own a car doesn't mean you can drive on the wrong side of the road. You have to follow the rules -- and that's what we're here to discuss and hopefully agree on.

> If the picture meets the contest criteria & is
> pertinent then why not allow it ?

Laziness. Plus you're going to choose your "BEST OF" shot and put it against some poor guy or girl who didn't have that subject in stock and has to go out and shoot a new photo under time restrictions. ONLY-NEW SHOTS level the playing field to some extent.

Having said that, you have to remember we're international and seasons are different in different hemispheres, so you have to be careful not to choose "Icicles," for example.

> Agreed that posting "new" pics will make poeple go out & shoot
> but this may not always be practical.

So they can sit on the bench for a week. There is no implied "right" to participate in these challenges. If you can't, you can't.

> Just my thoughts.

Mine, too. :cool:

Cheers,

Don

P.S. This is not to you, but please don't let me hear anyone whine, "These are supposed to be FUN!" No, they're not... they're supposed to be challenges.

Don Ellis

23rd of March 2005 (Wed), 02:27

rich lawrence wrote:
> I'm not sure that we should insist on new, It's worked
> for me so far and I've learnt as a result of thinking
> about and executing pictures of subjects that I
> wouldn't ordinarily shoot. ...however in a group
> whose greatest no. of participants has been @15-16
> for any one challenge I think it might be too
> limiting...

Quantity is a virtue only in Haagen-Dazs and hot fudge.

> ..there are going to be weeks when even
> regular participants will be unable to enter....hols,
> work etc.

So? :rolleyes:

> Participation is severely limited already..(G-series
> only... and quite right too!)

I agree... this challenge has two major things going for it: G-series and One-week time frame. Only-new photos would be a third plus.

> and I don't think we should restrict it any further....
> the more entries the better.

What will 50 entries get us? Sloppier photos, no doubt, and the host won't be able to comment individually even if he or she wants -- although I realize this is not necessary. But I do think we're going to miss that ability to share tips, tricks and techniques, which would elevate this challenge above the let's-win-a-prize contest.

> It has been shown that by careful choosing of the
> subject participants will almost certainly be forced
> to shot 'new',

Then let's make it a rule. ;)

> but equally important will be the inevitable call for
> our best 'landscapes' and 'sunsets' etc, for which
> the back catalogue will be invaluable.

You remind me that we could use a list of off-limit, brain-dead challenges. Top of the list would be landscapes, sunsets and reflections.

> AND NO TITLESEVER!!!!

I know you're joking but as long as we're using our creativity, we might as well think up a decent title for our entries. If you don't want to, just use "pencil" or "egg" or "old guy" or "red." We'll know it's you... :lol:

Cheers,

Don

teekay

23rd of March 2005 (Wed), 11:50

After reading all the comments so far re old/new photos, I suggest the compromise solution is best: Let the person setting the challenge choose each week whether or not the images should all be new.

We have quite enough limitations as it is, and I even agree with Rich that no titles or description should be needed to explain a photo to the judge. Lack of a title certainly should not disqualify a photo - after all, it always has a file name.

Encouraging a low number of entries merely so the judge can comment on each and every one should not be a factor. Commenting is hard work,and the judge should not feel obliged in every case to donate his/her presumably valuable time analyzing images with faults that must be obvious to the photographer in most cases anyway after seeing the winners and near winners.

In summary: ENOUGH RULES ALREADY!

BottomBracket

23rd of March 2005 (Wed), 12:46

I'd like the photos to have titles. It adds another layer of creativity.

paladin

23rd of March 2005 (Wed), 12:48

First, congrats to the top 3 and all who posted. I enjoyed each photo.

As for no "old" photos allowed, I would find that an inconvenience. I had specific ideas for the "egg" and "pencil" challenges. I had them set up in my mind and had the titles. What I did not have was the free time to execute either photo. As others have stated, restricting this to new photos only will elimanate some entries due to time constraints. Just my opinion.

Gil

dbump

23rd of March 2005 (Wed), 13:14

In summary: ENOUGH RULES ALREADY!

Since the challenge has been running quite well with the existing set of rules, I'd have to agree. I'm glad Don kicked it off in the first place, as we have yet to reach consensus!

That said, I think it's still worthwhile to discuss the rules on an ongoing basis in this thread, as we see things that work/don't work. As I've said before, I really like the winner's choice approach to the rules--that keeps things interesting, and gives us more data on what works.

Also, if I can interpret Don's comments: I don't think he's in favor of encouraging low participation as much as he's not in favor of compromising the quality of the entries just for the sake of high participation. That is, low participation isn't a goal in itself, but it is an acceptable (if lamentable) symptom of rules that encourage creativity.

I can see both sides--and I don't feel strongly about it, but I would say that this isn't the only photo challenge available on the web, so it's not as if we'd be denying folks that opportunity if we did require new images. I still don't know how we'd determine the age of a photo though...

Raj

23rd of March 2005 (Wed), 18:59

Don Ellis

23rd of March 2005 (Wed), 21:16

After reading all the comments so far re old/new photos, I suggest the compromise solution is best: Let the person setting the challenge choose each week whether or not the images should all be new.
I was trying to avoid each host setting rules. And by the sound of this rules discussion, the one who picks "only new" photos is not going to be popular with half the participants.

We have quite enough limitations as it is, and I even agree with Rich that no titles or description should be needed to explain a photo to the judge. Lack of a title certainly should not disqualify a photo - after all, it always has a file name.
Not having a title has never disqualified anyone, but there are very few rules -- 640 pixels, no border, title, camera name -- so it's not unreasonable to request they be followed.

Besides being invisible, the image file name crw_2865-800-cropped-sharpened-potn.jpg isn't the height of information or creativity. You wouldn't stick it on an art gallery photo you were trying to sell.

Encouraging a low number of entries merely so the judge can comment on each and every one should not be a factor. Commenting is hard work,and the judge should not feel obliged in every case to donate his/her presumably valuable time analyzing images with faults that must be obvious to the photographer in most cases anyway after seeing the winners and near winners.
We're not encouraging a low number of entries -- especially so the judge can comment on them. If you reread my remark about commenting in this thread, I said that "I realize this is not necessary."

And in the Pencil Winners thread, I said, "[Commenting is] going to be the first thing to disappear when we hit 50 entries. :lol: I also want to mention to other hosts that commenting on every photo is not required... we don't want winning one of these things to be too intimidating."

In summary: ENOUGH RULES ALREADY!
Few games in life have fewer rules than this challenge. And we're not talking about adding more rules, just deciding what the existing rule will be for old/new photos.

Don

Don Ellis

23rd of March 2005 (Wed), 21:25

Since the challenge has been running quite well with the existing set of rules, I'd have to agree. I'm glad Don kicked it off in the first place, as we have yet to reach consensus!
I'll repeat what I've said before -- I'm not rabid about "only new" photos. But once I began thinking about it, I realized that the ability to post old photos puts many photographers at a disadvantage. If I've been shooting sunsets for the last three years and the challenge is Sunsets, it's going to be a lot easier for me to win than someone who has to hope for a good sunset in the next five or six days.

That said, I think it's still worthwhile to discuss the rules on an ongoing basis in this thread, as we see things that work/don't work.
Certainly gives us something to do after we've uploaded our shot -- or while we're waiting for the sunset. :D

As I've said before, I really like the winner's choice approach to the rules--that keeps things interesting, and gives us more data on what works.
That's certainly a possibility.

Also, if I can interpret Don's comments: I don't think he's in favor of encouraging low participation as much as he's not in favor of compromising the quality of the entries just for the sake of high participation. That is, low participation isn't a goal in itself, but it is an acceptable (if lamentable) symptom of rules that encourage creativity.
Thank you... that's very accurate.

I can see both sides--and I don't feel strongly about it, but I would say that this isn't the only photo challenge available on the web, so it's not as if we'd be denying folks that opportunity if we did require new images. I still don't know how we'd determine the age of a photo though...
Good point... as for the G-series itself being limiting, I suppose it is. It limits participants to the few million people who own G-cameras. :lol: Speaking of which, if anyone knows a G-user, you might invite them over. This really is one of the best forums on the web.

I've got to go think RED now. :cool:

Cheers,

Don

Don Ellis

23rd of March 2005 (Wed), 21:32

Don, by ownership I simply meant as long as contestant has himself shot the pic (in past) it should be allowed to post, not meaning violating the rules as thats what we were discussing - fabricating rules. This offcourse, after the pic clears all qualifying criteria. There was no intention of driving on the wrong side.
I knew I should have avoided analogies. :confused: What I meant was just because you took a photo doesn't mean you can use it. You can't enter your Bird photo in a Dog challenge, for example. That's where the "usage" comes in.

Well I can see both sides here & will happily go with whatever majority comes up with.
Since a majority isn't really forming, we'll continue as we are until it does.

Cheers,

Don

rich lawrence

24th of March 2005 (Thu), 16:38

Quantity is a virtue only in Haagen-Dazs and hot fudge.

So? :rolleyes:

What will 50 entries get us? Sloppier photos, no doubt, and the host won't be able to comment individually even if he or she wants -- although I realize this is not necessary. But I do think we're going to miss that ability to share tips, tricks and techniques, which would elevate this challenge above the let's-win-a-prize contest.

Then let's make it a rule. ;)

You remind me that we could use a list of off-limit, brain-dead challenges. Top of the list would be landscapes, sunsets and reflections.

It aint gonna be a load of fun with just 3 entries a week whatever the calibre,
and so? not everyone is goin' to start at the same standard...but I reckon there
isn't a g-series out there that hasn't taken something interesting at some time,
i would prefer to nuture and coax the comp now rather than throttle it at birth.
Then when we get bored....new entries only.
:)
tellin' me you've not got a single landscape etc your not proud to share? :eek:

dbump

24th of March 2005 (Thu), 18:40

Just playing Devil's advocate here, but we don't yet know how/if restricting photo age will affect participation, since that rule isn't yet in place. If we do decide on such a restriction, it would be worthwhile to poll folks to see how many aren't participating due to that, and re-evaluate based on the results.

paladin

25th of March 2005 (Fri), 14:12

Yes, I had posted the egg/pencil comment elsewhere but was asked to repost it here.

Sorry I failed to make myself clear. My point was that if I had previously taken a photo of an egg, pencil or whatever subject may be broached in the future but am limited to only a "new" photo then time constraints might not allow me to retake a photo. And why is it several people think we can only learn from a current photo? I still have the exif data on all the photos I've taken and kept. Be it old or new, the comments from the judges and others would still help to enlighten me. On the other hand, if I don't have time to set up a current challenge and don't have an old photo then I lose an opportunity to learn from something I did either past or present, which is my loss. But limiting to only "new" photos removes all opportunity of learning.

Also, I have glanced at most of the photos entered as of Wednesday and very few, if any, have any exif data. Without this data, I have no way of knowing what steps were taken to produce a particular photo. How do I "learn"? What if I want to create a similar condition? Old or new, the lack of exif data hinders the learning process and does little more than show me a photo, or condition, I either want to create or avoid.

Whatever whoever decides to do then I will take whatever action is best for my situation. There are pictures I took two days ago and pictures I took a year ago. If one I took a year ago applies to a challenge and I would like the G series judges and users to say, "it would have been better if you had tried/done this, that or the other" then what does it matter? I am a rank amatuer. Any and all help is appreciated whether I took a photo this month or in March of 2004.

Again, just my opinion.

Kindest Regards,
Gil

rich lawrence

26th of March 2005 (Sat), 15:44

yeah...and one more thing.........

Ah just sold me G5, so if its only new pics allowed
I can't enter :o

in all seriousness...good luck which ever way you
choose to go, I shall remain an avid onlooker from
now on...(may just be able to enter next week :) )

digi slr pour moi

All the best

Rich;)

paladin

29th of March 2005 (Tue), 13:07

Ah well ----, why stop with new photos only? If we are going to be technical, precise, then we might as well go all the way.

Since this is for G series only we need to eliminate the Pro 1. If we make an exception for the Pro 1 then we might as well include all Canon digital cameras. Make that all Canon cameras, digital or film. Sorry Pro 1 owners but, technically, your camera is not a G series.

To make a completely even playing field we need to limit the G series to “out of the box” equipment only. No adapters, filters, external flashes, etc. After all, not everyone can afford or has the extra accessories. We also need to specify the format to be used such as LS (large superfine JPG). I am excluding RAW because not everyone can afford the same RAW conversion software. Granted, the G series does come with a RAW conversion utility but the G6 is superior to the G1 software. Remember, we are looking for a completely even playing field.

The only “tweaks” that can be made to the photo should be “in camera”. No post-processing. Once a photo is post-processed in any way it ceases to be a pure G series photo. It has been enhanced. And, once again, not everyone can afford PSCS or other high-priced software. Have you forgotten the purely technical, even playing field? No cropping would be allowed as that would also modify and/or enhance the original G series photo.

So, to make this a technically pure G series photo: G series only, no exceptions; new photos only; out of the box only; no accessories; large superfine JPG only; no post-processing or cropping; only allowed to re-size longest side to 640 plus the other rules already in place. Have I forgotten anything? Oh yes, the judging.

The winner and judge of each challenge must precisely define what is desired. Not “red”, “egg”, “pencil”, or “stop action”. It must be precise, as in: “red apple”, “brown, whole, not cracked/broken egg”, “yellow pencil with eraser and lead visible but no distracting writing”, “man, woman or child between X and XX years leaping over couch”. Must specify lighting but has to fall in the parameters of what everyone has available; natural daylight, incandescent light, fluorescent light but cannot include studio lighting as not everyone has access to this equipment. I think that is all but perhaps you can point out what I have missed. I really think we need a detailed list of rules and regulations to make these challenges no fun at all, painfully tedious and boring.

Just a thought.

Gil :D ;) :D

dbump

29th of March 2005 (Tue), 13:30

You should have titled that "A Modest Proposal"
:)

Raj

29th of March 2005 (Tue), 17:57

You should have titled that "A Modest Proposal"
:)

:wink:

teekay

10th of May 2005 (Tue), 10:51

The first posting on this thread says:
"Changes can certainly be made in the rules AFTER DISCUSSION AND CONSENSUS IN THIS THREAD."

So let's get rid of the rule saying that every entry has to have a title - leave it up to the photographer.

In each challenge one can say that ALL the entries automatically have a title if not otherwise given one by the photographer. For example, in the recent challenge, "Body Language", one can assume that each photo could well be titled "Body Language" since that must be what the entry is meant to illustrate.

Any artist has the right to give his/her work a title or not and nobody should be penalized for lack of one, in this forum or elsewhere.

BottomBracket

10th of May 2005 (Tue), 12:54

There's actually no problem. If the photographer elects not to name his/her work, the he/she can simply put "Untitled".

teekay

10th of May 2005 (Tue), 17:29

There's actually no problem. If the photographer elects not to name his/her work, the he/she can simply put "Untitled".

But someone - particularly if new - might not remember to actually write "Untitled" and then would they be technically disqualified?

Simpler is better - scrap the rule!

IainB

10th of May 2005 (Tue), 17:55

Looking over the competition guidelines afresh, I note that there is a suggestion that submitters turn on Private Messaging so that he or she can be advised of winning or ineligible entries. That may suggest the judge can pm to say "Hey, what's the title?" so there seems to be a lifeline for them there.

Anyway, newbies might also forget to post the model of their camera, or forget to make the photo 640 pixels max. I think these rules are fine, so long as "untitled" is accepted as a legitimate title.

gkuenning

15th of May 2005 (Sun), 19:29

Up until "Body Language" I was a new-photo-only guy. I figure part of the point is to get us to go out and think about pictures.

But "Body Language" taught me something new, even though I chose an old photo. I love shooting candids, but I didn't have time and weather to get one that week. Instead, I dug into my archives. The process of picking a single picture to enter in the contest was very educational: I discovered that my best shots tend to come when I have time to sit down and compose carefully, rather than trying to grab a "walk by". I also learned a lot about how to crop and about how to select an image.

That experience, plus the discussion here, has converted me. I like the rule the way it is.

gkuenning

15th of May 2005 (Sun), 19:34

One rule change I'd like to see is to prohibit entries that link to photos on other sites. I have two reasons for this:

When you're reviewing photos, it's a nuisance to have to follow a link to see an image. It's much nicer to just scroll down through all of the pictures.
External sites are unreliable. When I was looking at old challenges, there were several pictures (including a winner or two) that I couldn't see because the link had gone away. That makes it hard to learn from them. :(
So I'd like to see a requirement (or at least a strong suggestion) that photos be attached as inline images.

RAW

20th of May 2005 (Fri), 00:48

dbump

20th of May 2005 (Fri), 08:16

I'd agree too. I've been posting my images as links, just because I didn't want to cause any storage issues on this forum, but if attached images are prefered in the competition threads, I'm all for it.
If we go that direction, is there a downside to making it a requirement?

Don Ellis

20th of May 2005 (Fri), 09:42

One rule change I'd like to see is to prohibit entries that link to photos on other sites. I have two reasons for this:
1. When you're reviewing photos, it's a nuisance to have to follow a link to see an image.
2. External sites are unreliable. When I was looking at old challenges, there were several pictures (including a winner or two) that I couldn't see because the link had gone away.
So I'd like to see a requirement (or at least a strong suggestion) that photos be attached as inline images.
I believe that all photos link to other sites (unless there is a POTN photo-hosting option); otherwise Pekka would be awash in years of photos. The reason I believe this is that if I delete photos that I have linked, they disappear on this site -- if they were stored here, they wouldn't.

Some users know their hosting site doesn't allow inline images to display on other sites, so you get just the link.

You're right about its being a nuisance, but that's life. Unless you make people switch to other hosts or start their own website, I don't think you can require this. What you're likely seeing (or not seeing) when photos don't appear is that people have deleted them at the end of the link. The link goes nowhere because there's no photo at the end of it -- either because the person removed the photo or it somehow got removed (system crash, account removed, etc.).

If we go that direction, is there a downside to making it a requirement?
Some people won't be able to post, which doesn't seem fair.

Just a thought.

Don

dbump

20th of May 2005 (Fri), 11:55

Some people won't be able to post, which doesn't seem fair.

Absolutely--thanks for the clarification, Don!

RAW

20th of May 2005 (Fri), 12:05

Thank you for the clarification Don...Now, I agree with the things youy say...cheers.

gkuenning

21st of May 2005 (Sat), 17:03

I believe that all photos link to other sites... The reason I believe this is that if I delete photos that I have linked, they disappear on this site -- if they were stored here, they wouldn't.

It's trivially obvious that the above theory is not true, because you can see my photos, right? (See, for example, the "Music Makers" speed challenge.) My laptop is often offline, and even when online I am firewalled so aggressively that you couldn't possibly be picking up photos from me. The Music Makers second-place winner exists in only two places: my laptop and POTN. It's not being retrieved from my laptop; ergo it's coming from POTN.

Examination of the page source on POTN confirms this. Some images are from other sites, but those that (like mine) are attached with "manage attachments" are hosted on POTN.

Some people won't be able to post, which doesn't seem fair.

Quite the contrary: anybody can post an attachment. That's a fundamental characteristic of having the images stored on POTN. It's the external links that are discriminatory: people who have great hosting situations (like me) can post photos that will last for decades, while those who shift from provider to provider are stuck with unreliable postings.

Don Ellis

21st of May 2005 (Sat), 21:24

It's trivially obvious that the above theory is not true... anybody can post an attachment.
Confrontation = The New Discourse?

I hope not. We're a community here and communities depend on cooperation and courtesy. We’re having a discussion and nothing is ever “trivially obvious” to everyone.

If you’ll read the announcement about embedding images at the top of the “Canon G-series digital cameras,” you’ll see that CDS has said “REMINDER: IN discussion threads in informational forums the use of "Embedded" images should be kept to a bare minimum. Use LINKS as opposed to embedding.”

The link is here: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/announcement.php?f=17

He then goes on to say that embedding is permitted in some circumstances. The polite thing to do would be to write him and ask if it’s all right to embed images in the Challenge Thread. If he gives permission, you can then request a rule change in this thread. If there is general agreement, you can change the rules and then post the procedure in each of the new challenges so that people know how to do it. I’ll let you contact him since I don’t care one way or the other.

If you then want to make up more rules, you can demand that hosts post the three winners’ photos in the “Challenge Winners” announcement. And you can go on to require posting a link to each of the previous challenges (listed at the bottom of each new challenge) so that people can easily find them.

“It is hard to learn from” is not, in my opinion, an appropriate excuse for changing rules. Challenges are contests, not tutorials. If you learn something, that’s great. But you learned about photography before this recent G-series challenge was begun and there are a hundred other ways to learn better photographic technique on the Internet and in bookstores.

Don

gkuenning

22nd of May 2005 (Sun), 07:13

Don, I apologize for my choice of phrases. Instead of "trivially obvious" I should have written "obvious to me" or "I can easily demonstrate".

It is nevertheless true that it is possible to post images that are hosted on POTN, and for something like the challenges there are advantages to having the images hosted locally. Disk space is certainly an issue (and one that I considered before I posted my original suggestion), and I wouldn't advocate a general change to POTN hosting of images for all situations. But the Speed Challenges are limited to small images (my own entries are typically under 30K) and relatively few entries (10-20). That works out to perhaps 5 MB per week, which isn't a huge burden.

On the other hand, upon reexamining the source of the Web page, I note that some (many) of the links that appear to be embedded on POTN are actually being fetched from external sites. So perhaps we could just add a note into the rules suggesting that people should use embedded-external images, with a very brief instruction on how to do so. That would take care of 90% of my concern.

Don Ellis

22nd of May 2005 (Sun), 07:55

Don... I should have written "obvious to me" or "I can easily demonstrate".
Yes, it became obvious to me that you and I were doing something totally different -- only by reading the rules did I figure out what it was.

It is nevertheless true that it is possible to post images that are hosted on POTN, and for something like the challenges there are advantages to having the images hosted locally.
I do agree that it would be nice to see the images without clicking. And I wasn't being facetious about the winners' entries. It's even worse to click on linked entries there and have to search for the photos -- that's why I downloaded the winning photos in the two competitions I hosted, put them in a folder on my website and linked to those.

Because I have my own website, I've never embedded. Before I sent my previous email, I looked for instructions but didn't find them.

On the other hand, upon reexamining the source of the Web page, I note that some (many) of the links that appear to be embedded on POTN are actually being fetched from external sites. So perhaps we could just add a note into the rules suggesting that people should use embedded-external images, with a very brief instruction on how to do so. That would take care of 90% of my concern.
Good suggestion. If you could point me to the code or technique for embedding, rather than just linking, I would appreciate it.

I would think that we could lessen the load on Pekka's storage even more if we ask only those people who can't dynamically link to embed their images.

Amazing how even the smallest challenge has so many things to consider.

Cheers,

Don.

BottomBracket

22nd of May 2005 (Sun), 08:16

I have a nagging question - is it possible to see the exif data of the pics here? Thanks.

gkuenning

23rd of May 2005 (Mon), 06:04

It's even worse to click on linked entries there and have to search for the photos -- that's why I downloaded the winning photos in the two competitions I hosted, put them in a folder on my website and linked to those.

And man, did that make life easier for people when reading your comments!

Good suggestion. If you could point me to the code or technique for embedding, rather than just linking, I would appreciate it.

I do the embedding by clicking on "Manage Attachments" in the "Additional Options" box below the editing window. That gives me a window where I can enter the name of a local file (or files) to upload. When I click "OK", nothing changes in my editing window, but when I post the image will appear.

I would think that we could lessen the load on Pekka's storage even more if we ask only those people who can't dynamically link to embed their images.

Agreed. Now that I know there's another option, since I also have an ultra-stable Web service available, I'm going to start dynamically linking.

gkuenning

23rd of May 2005 (Mon), 06:08

is it possible to see the exif data of the pics here?

AFAIK, the only way is to download the pic by right-clicking and then use a local EXIF viewer. Even then, that'll only work if the photographer's editing software included the data in any revised version. (I'm maniacal about that issue, but not everyone is so detail-oriented.)

It's certainly technically possible for the forum to extract EXIF data and automatically display it, but you'd have to ask Pekka how hard it would be to actually implement. One roadblock would be that it would require downloading linked-to images.

Don Ellis

23rd of May 2005 (Mon), 20:56

And man, did that make life easier for people when reading your comments!
Glad it was appreciated... it's something that every host could do. This might be the perfect use for your embedding -- the host could download the winning photos and embed them in the announcement message. It's certain worth recommending to future hosts.

I do the embedding by clicking on "Manage Attachments" in the "Additional Options" box below the editing window. That gives me a window where I can enter the name of a local file (or files) to upload. When I click "OK", nothing changes in my editing window, but when I post the image will appear.
My new thing to learn for the day -- thank you.

Agreed. Now that I know there's another option, since I also have an ultra-stable Web service available, I'm going to start dynamically linking.
When I changed hosts a few months ago, I only uploaded a portion of my "download" folder files. Once I noticed missing photos on forums, I figured out where the backup folder was and uploaded the rest of them. It is a nuisance to go to old posts and find the photos missing.

Thanks again for the embedding technique.

Cheers,

Don

Don Ellis

23rd of May 2005 (Mon), 21:04

VOTING

We tried to keep the rules to a minimum when we started this challenge, but it's obviously a human trait to try try to get under, over or around the rules. I think of it as the Limbo Impulse: How low can I go to get underneath this barrier. :lol:

Which brings me to voting. Choosing six winners for the top three positions is a bit excessive.

I would like to suggest a rule that there be only one winner for each of the three top places. Life is full of decisions -- make one (and only one) for first, second and third place.

Cheers,

Don

RAW

24th of May 2005 (Tue), 00:41

gkuenning

24th of May 2005 (Tue), 07:30

Even though it probably means I wouldn't have placed this week, I agree with Don. We're fortunate that the rules implicitly require a single first-place choice. Heck, if nothing else you can always flip a coin. :-)

On a similar note, I've noticed that the comments often seem to work hard to be nice to the entrants. While that's good for egos, it's not so good for getting feedback and learning. For example, in the past few weeks I've seen shots with horribly cluttered backgrounds, yet the judge just says "nice composition" or "nice lighting" without mentioning the severe flaws. I'd like to encourage the judges to be willing to say what's wrong with the picture as well as what's right.

Boutty

24th of May 2005 (Tue), 08:59

the voting system is wrong
the votes should be taken by all those taking part (leaving out their own entry)

it's not a real good idea to have the fellow who wins out of the following comp. when he is even more entitled to be in it
one person's opinion is not necessarily always the best point of view on a shot

also it leaves a burden on him/her

just my thoughts

ps
the fellow who wins picks the subject the following week
but can also enter the comp.

I second Marie's thoughts. And in case of tie the judge will do a count-back; who ever submits the picture first wins.

:rolleyes: Just my 2 cents...

John

dbump

24th of May 2005 (Tue), 09:37

Voting has appeal, but also drawbacks, which have been mentioned before, and not yet resolved:

What mechanism for voting? The advantage to the current format is that the decision is quick, and the next contest starts without waiting for a long voting period. I'm sure there would be complaints if the voting period were only open for the current time frame.

How to prevent this from becoming a popularity contest, rather than a photography contest? There isn't a good way to make the submissions appear anonymous to the voters, yet still correlate the winners with the contributors afterwards.

Excluding the winner from the next week's competition is a drawback, but it also shakes things up a bit. Think of it as a handicap, or a term limit--the same person can't win twice (or more) in a row. Also, unlike the Tour de France, they can compete again the next week--is one week off so bad?

teekay

24th of May 2005 (Tue), 10:12

I agree with Don - three winners only, however hard that is for the judge.

I also agree that judges tend to be unduly complimentary to each person. There is really no need to comment on each photo since the faults of the worst should be obvious to all, even the photographer, when compared to the winners.

As for voting, that would be impossibly complex and time consuming. Generally speaking things are working just fine as they are.

dbump

24th of May 2005 (Tue), 10:28

I'll also agree on both the rule of three, and the commentary.

Regarding the latter, I think we'd discussed this before, but what about an optional 'stomp on my image with hobnailed boots' request from contributors who want brutally honest assesment? Now that I write that, I think the objection was that this is primarily a competition, not a photo sharing/feedback forum. Quite so--but any thoughts on spawning a seperate, semi-organized thread for comments on the submissions? That could relieve some sense of obligation from the judge as well, even though the rules explicitly state that commentary is not required.

xseption

17th of June 2005 (Fri), 15:27

I believe that the posting of winners and a link to the winning photos will go a long ways to helping guests and other non-members to enjoying this forum ... I run photo contests on another site http://onewordphotodeviantart.com and links come in real handy.

cheers!

gkuenning

22nd of August 2005 (Mon), 02:32

Proposed deadline change

I'd like to propose changing the deadline by 12 hours, from midnight Sunday GMT to noon Monday GMT.

The reason (inspired by my recent move across 9 time zones) is that many of us have more time for photography on the weekends. But if you live in a "behind GMT" zone like California or Hawaii, the deadline falls right in the middle of Sunday. In Germany, I was able to go out on Sunday and take a shot, have some family time, and still be able to crop and post it in the evening before the deadline. Now I've only got until 5 (4 in the winter), which often means I have to put the entry in on Saturday or not at all.

A deadline of noon GMT on Monday would mean that everyone in the world would have at least until Sunday midnight, local time, to post. A few people (e.g. Boutty and In Japan) would get until nearly Monday midnight--there are even some islands that would get until 2 AM--but I don't see that as a big drawback.

The only downside I can see is that right now, judges who live in "GMT minus" zones might have the opportunity to do their judging on Sunday afternoon. My proposal would eliminate that option. However, I think that is balanced by the benefits of allowing people to use their weekends to take and post pictures.

marie

22nd of August 2005 (Mon), 03:32

I'm 100% behind what you say, even to starting now so as you can enter this week ? :confused:
I'm in the GMT zone

to make any changes accommodating everyone in this way is fine by me ,
as I think it will be for everyone
?

it's not that serious that a few ajustments can't be made along the way

later edit
oops :shock:
just saw where the winners have already been picked
thank you Abat

I had no idea when I was replying to your post
it came into my mail because of my previous reply to a post on that post

(oh, this (explaining) is getting out of hand)
:rolleyes::lol:

hope something can be done by next week Gkuenning
:)

Don Ellis

22nd of August 2005 (Mon), 07:05

Proposed deadline change

I'd like to propose changing the deadline by 12 hours, from midnight Sunday GMT to noon Monday GMT.
Sure... why not?

Don

P.S. I know I don't participate in these challenges these days, but I started the thread so I thought I'd throw in an opinion. :D

abat

22nd of August 2005 (Mon), 16:46

I agree with the change as well.

I was right off the mark with the judging this week as I had a day off and midnight GMT is 10am Monday for me.

gkuenning - if you would like to submit a shot for the #28 Challenge, I'd be happy to "judge" it and provide my comments but I guess it's too late to include in the winners.

How do we make this change formal? - Do we need to do a vote poll or can BottomBracket just advise the new time and change the master rules?

Don Ellis

22nd of August 2005 (Mon), 18:20

I agree with the change as well.
How do we make this change formal? - Do we need to do a vote poll or can BottomBracket just advise the new time and change the master rules?
I'm inclined just to change it... I can't imagine any complaints (he said, hopefully).

Here's what it will look like:

Time
One challenge every week, on the following schedule:

New Topic ... As soon as possible after winners' announcement.
Posting Starts ... Right after topic is announced.
Posting Stops ... Monday noon GMT
Winner Announcement ... Tuesday noon GMT.
Have a look and see if that seems all right. Once I hear from you, I'll put it (or a modification) in the original post.

Cheers,

Don

MegaTrixel

22nd of August 2005 (Mon), 18:49

No Complaints here. Time change sounds reasonable.

Don, why aren't you entering any of the contests?... I miss your excellent entries. (and the feedback you give when you're the judge is superb)

in Japan

22nd of August 2005 (Mon), 19:02

The time change works for me too. It sounds like the fair thing to do.

BottomBracket

22nd of August 2005 (Mon), 20:01

Hi all, just read this thread. This sounds like a very reasonable change, and as it would be more fair to everyone and non-detrimental to anyone, I will implement it in the next challenge. I gotta check what Monday noon GMT is in EST :)

Don Ellis

22nd of August 2005 (Mon), 22:58

Everyone have a look and see what you think...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

POTN G-Series Speed Challenge #XX - [SUBJECT]

Challenge #XX is [TOPIC and any descriptions, parameters, exclusions.]

To submit, click "Post Reply" and put your Photo Name in the Subject Line. Don't forget your Camera Model.

Post until Monday noon GMT, [DATE].

[Name of host]
_____________________________________________

Please consider turning on Private Messaging in your profile.
This will allow the host to contact you about winning or ineligible photos. You turn this feature on by clicking "User CP, Edit Options, Enable Private Messaging" (about a third of the way down the page). Thank you.
_____________________________________________

Photo Submissions

1. Camera -- photos must be taken with a Canon G-Series Camera (G1,G2,G3,G5,G6) or Pro 1.

2. Time -- any on-topic photo taken at any time is eligible, although photos that have won other competitions should NOT be entered.

3. Size -- photo must be EXACTLY 640 pixels on the longest side, with NO BORDERS. Odd-sized photos ineligible.

4. Post-Processing -- do whatever you like and the host will decide if it works.

5. Posting --

ONE PHOTO per photographer in each challenge.
Photo Name in the message subject line.
Camera model.
6. Photographer's Notes -- Name and camera are are you need, but you're welcome to add a story, location, photo tips, brief EXIF data.

7. No Commenting by others -- When the posting is closed, comments can be made in this thread.

Time
One challenge every week, on the following schedule:

New Topic ... As soon as possible after winning.
Posting Starts ... Right after topic is announced.
Posting Stops ... Monday noon GMT
Winners Announcement ... Tuesday noon GMT.
Past Winners List

Add the winners' list to the bottom of the thread.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
And that's all you need in the Challenge Post. The notes below are for your information.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~

Hosting

1. The Challenge Host is the winner of the last challenge.
2. Choose a topic and list any special rules -- but DO NOT POST a photo. 3. Post the topic in a thread with this title: “POTN G-Series Speed Challenge #XX -- [TOPIC]”
4. At the end of competition, choose a Winner and two Runners-up and explain why the photos were selected. Comments on other photos are nice but not required.
5. Post these in a thread titled “POTN G-Series Speed Challenge #XX -- [TOPIC] -- Winners.”
6. Winner starts with Rule #1 above.
7. If the winner can't be contacted and doesn't respond by Wednesday noon GMT, the second-place winner will host the challenge. Etcetera.

_____________________________________________

Announcing Winners

One of the annoyances of reading the Challenge Winners Thread is that it's usually text-only -- no photos -- so you have to jump back and forth between the Challenge Thread and the Winners Thread and then search for the photos on the Challenge Thread.

I thought up a few solutions involving 1) downloading and linking, or 2) downloading and attaching, but finally arrived at the best idea of all: Post the Winners Message in the Challenge Thread itself.

Since the Challenges are weekly, we all know when to go to the Challenge Thread to look for the winners (besides email notices) -- and this keeps all comments about a single challenge together.

Voila, as we say. (We also say, "What do you think?)

Cheers,

Don

Don Ellis

22nd of August 2005 (Mon), 23:38

Don, why aren't you entering any of the contests?... I miss your excellent entries. (and the feedback you give when you're the judge is superb)
Hi James,

I don't participate mainly because of time. I believe in taking new shots for the competition and I no longer have the time to devote to that. I've also given up the CTF Challenges and the CTF mini-challenges, so it's not just this one.

Thanks very much for your comments... I enjoyed the judging when I did it (except for picking the winner, of course).

Good luck.

Don

gkuenning

23rd of August 2005 (Tue), 04:10

Don, I like the new rules. The only downside of posting winners in the original thread is that if we're champing at the bit, we'll have to look at the "last post time" column instead of scanning for a completely new subject. I think I can manage that. :-)

Abat, thanks for the offer, but I actually didn't take a picture. More accurately, my G3 took about 200 in intervalometer mode, but the danged shy turtle never came out of the pond even though I put out food for him (her?). So I have 200 nearly identical pictures of a rock. Ah, well, there's always next week...or maybe four weeks from now, given my current up-to-the-neck level of being swamped.

Don Ellis

23rd of August 2005 (Tue), 09:01

Don, I like the new rules. The only downside of posting winners in the original thread is that if we're champing at the bit, we'll have to look at the "last post time" column instead of scanning for a completely new subject. I think I can manage that. :-)
As I get older, I get smarter... and with your help (read: whiny complaint :p), I've got a solution to that as well.

Since the host is the one who posts the first message, at the end of the challenge he or she can edit the first message to put the winners' names above the original message that announced the challenge. So it will be the first thing you see.

At that moment, there will be (should be) a message at the bottom of the thread announcing the challenge is closed. And then after that message everyone's comments will begin appearing.

Sounds rather slick and tidy to me. We'll wait for a consensus (never my strong suit).

Cheers,

Don

P.S. If there is any downside to this technique, it's that a notification email will not be sent for a modified message (I don't believe). So either people will have to remember when results are due and check in... or, the host can put a new message at the end saying, "Results posted in the first message of this thread" -- which should trigger an email alert.

MegaTrixel

23rd of August 2005 (Tue), 12:56

Ok, forgive me, but I just want to summarize to see if I have this right.

1. Winner of previous contest (host) creates a new thread for the next contest (see layout above).

2. Participants post their entries until the next Monday, noon GMT.

3. The host posts a closing message (as near to Monday, noon GMT as possible).

4. By Tuesday, noon GMT, the host edits the original message (the one announcing the contest) and places the results, critiques, etc. at the top of the message.

5. At this point, everyone is free to post comments, congratulations, etc. to the same thread.

Our contest threads may become many pages long but it works for me.

Edit:
Can the host change the title of the thread to indicate the results are in?

Don Ellis

23rd of August 2005 (Tue), 20:47

Ok, forgive me, but I just want to summarize to see if I have this right.

Our contest threads may become many pages long but it works for me.

Edit:
Can the host change the title of the thread to indicate the results are in?
You've got it, James,

The thread may run to four pages, for example, but I think it will still be better than two separate threads of two pages each. The old way, you have to go find that original thread, then you have to go back and forth to see the photos. This new way, you'll just click on Page 1 or 2 to see the photos and then click back to Page 3 or 4 for the comments.

The host can change the title of the first message, BUT the original title will still be displayed in the forum message list (experience talking here). Besides, 1) people know when the challenge should be judged, and 2) the host can put the "Winners in the first post" message once results are announced and this will automatically send an email alert to everyone participating (who hasn't unchecked the "email notification" box) -- just as I know you're being alerted to this new message.

Cheers,

Don

marie

24th of August 2005 (Wed), 02:40

sounds great Don

he he he
glad I'm not the first to have to start it
in case I make a boob
:lol::lol:

(boob ?)

:confused::o:)

:shock:

Q
why is a boob listed in the dictionary as 'an embarrassing mistake' or 'a female breast'

:shock:

:mrgreen:
A

do not answer that
we have enough problems:confused:
:lol::lol::lol:

abat

24th of August 2005 (Wed), 21:50

Don Ellis

24th of August 2005 (Wed), 22:24

Sounds great but I need some things clarified:

. How do you change the title of the thread to "Winners etc. " Do you do this simply in the title box when you hit "post reply"? - I take it only the original poster can do this or there would be a lot of shenanigans going on.

. What do you do to trigger an email alert again once you've replied to the challenge post with a "winners" title. I must have this switched off because I don't see emails about anything.

gkuenning - I think you should submit at least one of your rock photos!
Yes, only the host can change the title because the host posted the first message. But as I said, changing the title INSIDE the thread doesn't change the title OUTSIDE the thread -- meaning in the list of all the available messages in the G-series Forum.

Although I said that the host can post a message with something like, "Winners are now posted in the first message of this thread", it's not required. The first person to add a new message will trigger an alert email to everyone who has selected this option.

To receive Instant Email Notification for all threads you post to -- go to your User CP (Control Panel), click "Edit Options" and scroll down to the second box: "Messaging & Notification". Under "Default Thread Subscription Mode" you can select "Instant email notification."

To receive Instant Email Notification only for specific threads you post to -- follow the instructions above but select "No email notification." Then, when you "Post Reply" to a thread, notice that there are "Additional Options" below the message box -- "Instant email notification" is one of them. Check it.

Cheers,

Don

rowdyred94

18th of March 2007 (Sun), 20:58

But someone - particularly if new - might not remember to actually write "Untitled" and then would they be technically disqualified?

Simpler is better - scrap the rule!

Sorry for bringing back the dead, but I have to plus one this comment. I didn't want to further muddy last week's contest thread, so I'll do it here.

This is no reason to disqualify a contenstant, IMO, and it's enough of an irritant to me that I'm soured on the contest. Why would we be so trivial about a rule that has no real bearing on the outcome? I was under the impression that a rule like this is mostly a suggestion. What exactly is the purpose of the rule, anyway?

EskoLius

19th of March 2007 (Mon), 04:08

My reason to "neglect" the rules - that is, to not put the picture name in the headline field - is that at the time of posting my entry to challenge #109 I didn't know how to do it.

You know, this Quick Reply box (that I first thought is the way to add a message to a thread) doesn't give an option to type a title.

By the way, it was this close [thumb|forefinger] that I didn't make a second DQ entry in a row. On Thursday I saw some great animals and decided to shoot them in order to make a great entry. I halted my bike, walked as close to them as possible, took some prominent photos and only riding onwards I realized I had the wrong camera with me.

touchmyichi

19th of March 2007 (Mon), 04:23

^ I totally agree, what would be so bad about saying, Eskolius - Untitled? Besides, sometimes the picture really speaks for itself, that's what visual art is all about- you don't need words to explain what you are depicting. Some of the world's best paintings are purposely unnamed (I guess this is beyond the point but yeah :P). Anyways, I think that its unfair to people like Eskolius who put up a picture that was easily top 3 worthy. I guess that it won't happen to any people after their first time doing it, but still I don't see how it hurts the contests in any way.

teekay

19th of March 2007 (Mon), 18:49

As you can see, way back in 2005 I disagreed with having a title required, but since most people wanted it and we ended up with it as a rule, I accepted it with no problem. It has worked well for over 100 challenges since then because most people read the rules before posting.

I don't really care what the rules are, but once in place everyone has to abide by them or be disqualified. The judge, who often ends up being wrongly blamed for applying the rules, has no choice if he/she is to do his/her job fairly, just as real judge has to abide by the law.

dbump

19th of March 2007 (Mon), 23:51

I'm not crazy about titles either, but as teekay mentions, it has been working pretty well. It does seem like one of the easiest requirements--certainly no harder than listing the camera model. A newcomer is much more likely to run afoul of other rules, I'd think. If you feel strongly about not titling your photo (or, like me, can't come up with something at the time of posting after all the work taking it and shaping it), 'Untitled' is the title equivalent of a null, and perfectly valid according to the rules.
In addition, if the poster, the judge, or any other observer notices a missing title before the end of the contest and notifies the poster, they should be able to edit/repost to correct.

rpolitsr

16th of October 2007 (Tue), 11:53

...I realise you lot have been doing these photo comps for a while now (a long while), but....
Is there any chance of changing the closure of entry time to midnight rather than half way through the working day ?

Just a thought.

/and wouldn't it depend where you were in the world as to if a photo was late on the same day or not

I referred to the last discussion (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=730005#post730005) of the closure time early in this thread.

The idea behind it was that all the participants can use Saturday and Sunday to process their entries. We should stay open to the changes so that most of the participants are comfortable with the rules though.

I think the closure time set at Monday noon GMT allows most of the people here to ‘close’ their participation on Sunday.

Moving it back to Sunday midnight GMT will revert to the original problem of people "behind GMT", while moving it to Monday midnight pushes the closure time too deep in the week (Wednesday) for people “ahead GMT” as the people from Australia.

rpolitsr

19th of February 2008 (Tue), 00:40

I was thinking, maybe the sizes could be allowed to 800 pixels on the longest side ?
but no worries if its not a good idea
or any hassle (at all)
:confused:

By the way, Marie beat me to it, I was thinking too that maybe we can increase the size of the photo to 800 pixels on the longest side. The larger image would have a bit more impact, I would think.

Second that...what is the limit we can upload to the forum library?

I thought about the size too, but I am still wondering if an 800 pixels vertical or square image is a bit too large even for a moderately sized monitor. For 4:3 horizontal images certainly 800x600 is better, I think.

... We can keep discussing about the larger image size, I think 800 pixels is good enough and can be handled easily by old monitors. I agree with marie's suggestion.

... I'm also in favor of increasing the image size limit. This page (http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2007/December/res.php) shows recent 800x600 monitor resolution usage at below 10%. I'd guess that the number is even less among digital photographers. Anything larger should display an 800 pixel image well, though some of us may need to shrink our list of browser toolbars to fit vertically. ;-)

Considering the S- and A-series people are using 800 pixels, the G's should certainly be keeping up!! I concur: 800.

They also use a max file size limit of 200k, to keep quality on a level playing field and also to benefit (I assume) those people still on dial-up. On that forum the 200k limit does cause trouble with the less experienced not knowing how to vary compression to keep within limits (and often not knowing how to resize to 800, either).

I concur with changing the rule to 800 pixels exactly on the longest side. But what about a 200k limit here, too?

All the quotes above were posted on challenge # 158.

In order to keep the usual procedures for the changes on the rules, I pasted them here in the same order they were posted so we can complete the discussion in this thread.

rpolitsr

19th of February 2008 (Tue), 01:04

... I concur with changing the rule to 800 pixels exactly on the longest side. But what about a 200k limit here, too?

The recent changes on POTN forums rules (Pekka’s rules I mean) allow attachments of 150k. The 200k limit seems reasonable in my opinion.

rpolitsr

19th of February 2008 (Tue), 01:36

http://sites.google.com/site/rpolitsr/r_polit_5/pictures/potnentries/024_streetcandids_IMG_3823_crop_800.jpg

powershot Pro1

rpolitsr

19th of February 2008 (Tue), 02:02

The post above is my typical entry format.

It is 800 pixels square and the image is a tight fit for my monitor of 1280 x 1024 pixels, three rows of tool bars and the menu bar of Internet Explorer.

Pressing F11 to temporarily remove the toolbars, there is enough vertical space for the picture, title and camera rows and even some exif or a comment when they are allowed by the host.

I’m with marie for the change to 800 pixels.

Kevan_G9

19th of February 2008 (Tue), 09:32

I'll second or third the motion; the increased size allowance would have helped some in the panorama I presented in the last challenge.

CJinAustin

19th of February 2008 (Tue), 09:47

I would love to use a larger size as well; these pics I just judged looked tiny on my screen. When viewing a 640 image on a 22" screen at 1680x1050 the image is pretty small. I know we were keeping it small to accomodate the smaller monitors but alot of people have large high resolution monitors so I think 750-800 should accomodate both. And like rpolitsr mentioned F11 may be good enough to get it in for the rest.

BottomBracket

19th of February 2008 (Tue), 12:41

Rafael has just pm'd me to ask if I can implement the new 800 pixel format for this week's challenge. Seeing that there is a groundswell for change, I will go ahead and revise the rules to accommodate the new format. As this is a transition period of sorts, I will for this week allow entries with the 640 pixel format as well. We can treat this as a test period for the new change, and see if it will suit us well. Thanks all!

Boutty

20th of February 2008 (Wed), 06:17

Yep! I'd like the up-size thanks! :cool:

Great suggestion marie , thanks sir rafael for organizing and Pio for enforcing this. ;)

BottomBracket

20th of February 2008 (Wed), 12:05

Lol Boutty, you make it sound like I'm the enforcer around here :)

Blast

21st of February 2008 (Thu), 08:07

Do you guys mind considering another option. I know this is the G forum. But, I would like to see not only here but in other forums as well, maybe allow a "lessor" camera in this forum and the EOS.
For example,
In the compact digital forum ONLY those cameras can enter their challenges as it suggest that is the entry level genre'.
In this forum (G Series) obviously all the cameras included already, the G series and the Pro 1, but allow the "lessor camera" the "A" and the "S" line, compacts to enter here as well.
In the EOS forum, allow the compacts AND the G series-Pro 1 cameras, along with the EOS genre'.

Short version, one can "step up" if you feel you have the shot, but not step down to dominate a smaller forum/challenge.

Thoughts?

Harry

Kevan_G9

21st of February 2008 (Thu), 08:44

My only thought is that in the "competitions" section they allow cameras of all models and makes to compete together. If you look there you'll see that they have a weekly contest for every month.

rpolitsr

2nd of March 2008 (Sun), 18:55

I think that posting comments within the pictures before the end of the challenge is as sticking messages in the walls of an art gallery. Most likely, they will be removed by the gallery staff, so it is better not to stick them on the wall.

There are enough tools in the forum to edit an entry post without repeating it as happened lately.

The participants are asked to allow Private Messages so the host can use them to send the recommendations without messing the ‘exhibition wall’.

Remember the rule, repeated on the first post of every challenge:
6. Commenting -- No commenting on photos by anyone, including the photographer. Once the winners are declared, photographers can add comments to their images and everyone is invited to discuss.

I hope to see the forthcoming challenges with nothing but pictures until the winners are announced, then a lot of posts with comments look really nice!

Please take this comment as an attempt to keep the challenges running smooth and not as a comment against people.

P.S.1: If there are problems with the place where a participant hosts his/her images, the easiest and surest solution is to upload the image to the POTN server as an attachment as many of the participants from all over the world do.

P.S.2: Please compare the clean display of pictures in page 1 with the poor display due to the inserted comments on page 2 of the current challenge #160 to see what I mean.

Edit:
Page 2 is now as clean and beautiful as page 1 :)
Thank you marie, Jannie, jesseli.
I’m sorry for the hassle, I didn’t mean to edit/delete the posts right now, those were thoughts for future challenges.:o

Jannie

2nd of March 2008 (Sun), 20:05

I think we shouldn't have too many rules.

rpolitsr

2nd of March 2008 (Sun), 20:48

I think we shouldn't have too many rules.

I think they are just a few and they helped a lot on hundreds of previous challenges.

I also think that we must abide by them until they are removed, if they are.

Jannie

3rd of March 2008 (Mon), 10:42

Jannie

3rd of March 2008 (Mon), 13:21

The old rules said I would have had to post the winners by Monday at noon GMT

The new rules say I am to post the winners Noon Tuesday GMT, I'm in the NW of The United Stated and I think that means I'd have to post them correctly at 4am tomorrow morning my time, is it possible that since we are past the closing time that it still means although not stated that I should post by noon not at noon GMT.

Jannie

rpolitsr

3rd of March 2008 (Mon), 14:03

To clarify, I wasn't complaining about the existing rules, but my concern was that more might be added, I've watched this in other areas of life, when the complexity of the rules increased to the point where people stopped participating.

I agree, too much rules may remove the fun and creativity from the challenges.

It would be nice to complete the size rule as teekay suggested though:

The people posting the pictures as attachments are limited to 150kb files by the forum rules. Limiting the size of the files hosted elsewhere to 200kb put all the participants in similar technical conditions.

Pictures 800x600 pixels saved for web as jpg high in Photoshop naturally fall in the range of 100-150kb size. Only pictures 800x800 pixels with very high image complexity and too much sharpening may be slightly degraded.

Perhaps, due to the technical knowledge involved on resizing, this may be just ‘strongly recommended’, I am not sure on that.

A side technical note on this:

The web is tailored to deal with images on the sRGB color space. If somebody posts images on Adobe RGB or other color spaces, the colors may be adversely affected.

It would be better to always convert your images to sRGB before posting to the web.

Adobe RGB have advantages for printing if the printer used can handle it properly.

This last note has nothing to do with the proposed rule, but because some Canon cameras can select Adobe RGB as the default color space I thought it is worth mentioning that here.

rpolitsr

3rd of March 2008 (Mon), 14:20

Hi Jannie
I just read the last edition in the first post of your challenge:

CONTEST IS NOW CLOSED!

Thank you everyone, I spent endless hours staring at your photos, I had no idea that it would be this challenging. Everyone did it, everyone satisfied the request and I love where all of your vision took you, a totally new experience for me. Thank you!

I have the winners but I guess I'm not supposed to post them until tomorrow at noon GMT which is 4am tomorrow morning for me.

Usually, winners are announced as soon as they are picked, the sooner the better, so go ahead and post them!

Tuesday Noon GMT is a maximum dead line, but even it is just a coarse reference because
People from Australia, New Zeland etc. may be even in the next day :rolleyes:

Hotfudge

14th of April 2008 (Mon), 12:47

Quantity is a virtue only in Haagen-Dazs and hot fudge.

Would you care to explain above ? "wot have i done wrong now" :lol:

At the risk of BB telling me i'm moaning again i would like to ask for a small amendmant to be discussed..

When each challenge is posted we read the task and apply ourselves to each individual picture that we post, this is why we have these wonderful and varid pictures, we all read and view the task differently

I'm all for learning and if at the end of the compertition someone say's how did you arrive at that subject then it can be explained

the challenger becomes the judge they won the right to access the pictures posted and apply to the task set

i would like to ask that in the rules the challenge judge, once posted the challenge does not pm or post comments to entrents discussing the picture posted and it's merrits, in my book "it's just not cricket"

sure at the end of the comp we can all discuss as we do

i throw it open for amicable discussion:)

BottomBracket

15th of April 2008 (Tue), 09:20

At the risk of BB telling me i'm moaning again i would like to ask for a small amendmant to be discussed..

And your point is...?

andrewaaa5

15th of April 2008 (Tue), 13:35

And your point is...?

In this case "I am Spartacus!". I sent a PM out for the 'looks like a face' challenge as I was not sure that I was getting the message across in my original 'description' on the challenge. I later slightly changed the text of the challenge (hoping to clear up any uncertainties). Apologies from me for any wrong doing. Feel free to discuss, but I am staying out of this topic from here on...

Hotfudge

15th of April 2008 (Tue), 13:57

i'm not getting at anyone far from it just asking if when the task is set however the person views the task then this is there entry and this is how it will be judged

i dont feel pm's from the judge while the contest is on helps

open debate after the contest closes fine we all have a view on the pictures taken thats what makes the challenge intresting

luke

rpolitsr

15th of April 2008 (Tue), 14:36

There is a recommendation after the rules on every challenge:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please consider turning on Private Messaging in your profile.
This will allow the host to contact you about winning or ineligible photos. You turn this feature on by clicking "User CP, Edit Options, Enable Private Messaging" (about a third of the way down the page). Thank you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think this allows the host to point about errors in the entry format, mainly referred to:

errors in the image size (pixels)
title missing or misplaced
comments by the author on his post (comments are usually not allowed)

Subjective appreciations about the image content should be made after the winners announcement, as stated in rule 6, so I do not see a rule that needs changes.

Sometimes, I send Private Messages about issues on image size, title or not allowed comments even when I am not the host. I think it is a friendly guidance to new participants and I will continue doing so unless you think this must be done only by the host.

Sometime I got unpleasant discussions with participants, but they were just two or three in three years. Once I was asked to ‘point my nose in other direction’ :)

Hotfudge

15th of April 2008 (Tue), 16:21

Once I was asked to ‘point my nose in other direction’ :smile:

Ahh sounds like good use of an unwritten rule lol

thanks for the clarifaction

luke

echomusiq

18th of March 2009 (Wed), 23:06

the 800 pixel width rule ruins this challenge.

CJinAustin

18th of March 2009 (Wed), 23:13

Well if the moderators are OK with it I am fine with providing larger hyperlinks like the first two did...

rpolitsr

18th of March 2009 (Wed), 23:34

Moderators do not run the challenges.
Interested members created them.
The G-series challenges have this thread for rule discussion and related comments so I moved the two previous post to here in order to keep the challenge thread clean for the entries.

CJinAustin
You as the host of this week can allow the links to larger images without moderator intervention.
The best way is to edit your description of the panorama challenge to include the recommendation.

Moderators will still convert to links images larger than 1024 pixels because they are against POTN rules, but that has not been the case with this challenge so do not worry.

boki-san

17th of June 2009 (Wed), 13:07

in refrence to rule #3,

could that be amended to "no greater than 800 pixels on the longest side" ?

the rule, as currently written, is unfairly biased toward horizontal images.

for vertical and square images, the "exactly 800" rule prevents the entire composition from being visible without scrolling, which ruins the effect of the composition.

for most computer monitors, with typical browser toolbars, anything over 700 pixels in the vertical dimension gets clipped, and the majority of viewers are not aware of the F11 option.

rpolitsr

17th of June 2009 (Wed), 14:54

boki-san, The last change on size (from 640 to 800 pixels) took place around February 2008

Below is a link to the post where the last discussion and approval of the size rule began.

start of the previous discussion of size rule on this hread. (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4946485&highlight=800%20pixels#post4946485)

As you know, the rules can change again after discussion and consensus by a reasonable number of members.

Good luck

boki-san

17th of June 2009 (Wed), 15:03

thanks, rafael.

i read through both rules threads entirely before posting.

the "exactly" rule just seems unfair, and limiting for vertical and square images.

if i select a vertical or square format, i would like my image to be viewable in it's entirety, exactly as i composed it, without scrolling.

i would propose the wording, "no larger than 800 pixels"
or "minimum of 640 and maximum of 800 pixels on the longest side"

from a message to rafael
"thank you rafael.

i think the horizontal format of computer monitors has subconsciously steered photographers towards less vertical compositions.

it's unfortunate, and i realized it had happened to me a couple years ago while looking at a contact sheet.
it dawned on me that very few of the shots where fired with the camera oriented vertically.
then it dawned on me why,
... i had begun shooting a large percentage of things with the intention of posting them on the web, and what 'fits' on the web is horizontal format.
i hadn't even realized it had happened to me.
i was 'seeing' things with a horizontal bias.

it only had to occur to me, for me to overcome the tendency, and to go back to composing photographs the way i always had in my film days,
... using the orientation that best suited the subject, and the desired feel of the resulting image.
my digital 'contact sheets' are now much more balanced."

CJinAustin

17th of June 2009 (Wed), 16:10

I personally would like to see the size limit increased to 200kb, I would rather see sharper images than big super compressed ones.

Kevan_G9

17th of June 2009 (Wed), 16:32

I agree with both boki and CJ, though I suspect CJ's comment will be a harder fight to win, due to website contraints. I can appreciate that.

I agree that photos presented vertically lose out on visual impact because the viewer has to conceptualize what the entire is as they scroll. Using the F11 key will maximize screen height and possibly a photo set at 750 pixels will pass.

teekay

17th of June 2009 (Wed), 18:32

I agree with both boki and CJ, though I suspect CJ's comment will be a harder fight to win, due to website contraints....I agree that photos presented vertically lose out on visual impact because the viewer has to conceptualize what the entire....

Is not the file size limit outside the control of individual forum members or even moderators? There has to be a reasonable limit on file sizes over the whole POTN site and I can't why anyone would have a problem with that as they can always post a link to the file on an image hosting web site - including the free personal web space that is allowed by most ISPs.

I don't have any problem viewing 800 pixel vertical images on my 19" monitor without scrolling. It has has a resolution of 1280x1024, is not an expensive model, and I respectfully suggest that most people interested in photography or graphics will have a monitor with at least that resolution these days.

If someone has a 1024 vertical resolution monitor and can't see a full 800x800 image without scrolling, then they probably have their browser set so the borders and toolbars etc. are taking up too much territory - a common mistake IMHO.

gkuenning

18th of June 2009 (Thu), 14:59

for most computer monitors, with typical browser toolbars, anything over 700 pixels in the vertical dimension gets clipped, and the majority of viewers are not aware of the F11 option.

Boki, what's your definition of "most computer monitors" and "typical browser toolbars"?

Your reference to F11 indicates that you may have a specific operating system or browser in mind.

boki-san

18th of June 2009 (Thu), 18:01

Boki, what's your definition of "most computer monitors" and "typical browser toolbars"?

Your reference to F11 indicates that you may have a specific operating system or browser in mind.

i wouldn't use the term "definition", that's why i typed "most", and "typical"

for "most" monitors, i would put them around 900-1024 pixels high

i'd put "typical" browser toolbars, tabs, & task bar at around 150-180 pixels worth

with windows OS think the F11 function to bring current browser window to full screen works with both IE and firefox

tmwag

4th of August 2009 (Tue), 14:00

Hope I'm not stepping out of bounds but apparently it's OK to change your photo entry during a speed challenge? Most rules I'm accustomed to in any sort of competition don't allow you change your entry once submitted. Not trying to stir the pot but can someone clarify

tmwag

4th of August 2009 (Tue), 18:06

Well, no response...lol..I suppose we can bend the rules...lol

Kevan_G9

5th of August 2009 (Wed), 15:22

Well, no response...lol..I suppose we can bend the rules...lol

I'll respond. There is no such rule needing bending as far as I can see...er, read. If anyone has done more bending of this particular practice...it is probably me. I find that posting my photo and looking at it from various monitors, in different light, helps me gain satisfaction that my photo is done properly. Too many times to count, I go back to the drawing board to do some tweaking.

Since this is a casual contest and we encourage new people to use their cameras and join us, I think its important we don't take ourselves too seriously and allow for some education and development.

Assuming we didn't allow changing, what is gained?

tmwag

5th of August 2009 (Wed), 15:59

I'm not pointing a finger at you or anyone in particular but like I said few competitions that I'm aware of allow an entry change. Once you enter you stick with what you submitted or you don't enter. I think a "rule" such as that would make folks more careful with their composition, post processing, etc and concentrate on producing the best possible image and I thought the idea of a speed challenge is to take the photo during the week of competition..but thats another matter.

As far as the practice of editing afterwards, say I enter a photo and then notice someone has entered a photo that is obviously better than mine….I then edit my entry with a better one? I’m almost positive someone else has questioned that practice. If that is acceptable then so be it. I realize this is a casual friendly contest but just thought I'd bring it up.

teekay

5th of August 2009 (Wed), 18:33

[quote=tmwag;8405277]...
"....Once you enter you stick with what you submitted or you don't enter. I think a "rule" such as that would make folks more careful with their composition, post processing, etc and concentrate on producing the best possible image..."

That's precisely why people sometimes post an improved image or change it altogether. The result - better entries!

>....I thought the idea of a speed challenge is to take the photo during the week of competition..but thats another matter....

That's never been a rule either, although the nature of some challenges more or less dictates that. I mean, how many people have great shots of pens in their portfolio?

>....say I enter a photo and then notice someone has entered a photo that is obviously better than mine….I then edit my entry with a better one?

Again, feel free! Besides, you wouldn't know that the judge would think the other entry was "obviously better" than yours.

>....I’m almost positive someone else has questioned that practice....

Not to the best of my recollection, and I've been following this challenge since #1.