Night landscape photography

[realitysays]

Hi guys,

I'm new to the forums here and i must say it is full of information! I am having huge trouble getting my head around this for about a month i have struggled and read and read and read about how to take night shots of landscape photos.

For my particular shot i am trying to achieve, it is of sydney harbour at night time between 8 and 12 p.m.
Now i understand that the best light would preferably at dusk (around 7'ish at the moment with daylight savings) and i am going to do this tonight, but i am just intrigued to the following questions i have:

I have read A LOT of articles about night photography. I thought i understood it, but in fact i was totally wrong. It is about 100m to the city from my location, it is pretty well lit, i am shooting from ground level and about 10metres up, there is a lot of sky involved i would say.
Now that i have explained my location, i will explain my camera settings.

I am using a Canon EOS 400D with the standard 18-55mm lense. I plan to upgrade to a 50d and buy a canon 10-22mm lense in about a month, but i want to get this shot right, with my current setup.

The settings i have read about, tell me to use an aperture of around f/11 to f/22 and a longer shutter speed of around 20-30 seconds. I have tried this on NUMEROUS occasions, using different focal points, different metering modes, etc.... and it comes out VERY underexposed. I check the histograms and it is just hugging the left hand side of the histogram. I change the exposure compensation meter and bracket it and no matter how much or how less i set it too its always underexposed.
BUT, when i use a wide aperture of around f3.5-5/5.6 and a 20-30second shutter speed it comes out brilliant, but some highlights are blown out and i just cant figure out how to perfectly expose the shot. I cant find that middle which is perfection. I always shoot using an ISO of 100, a sturdy tripod and a wireless remote release.

It is the same angle as the linked photo below (Sorry if this is copyright i believe it isn't as i am jsut displaying it and not wanting to "copy" the shot, i am using it as an example)

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/sports-and-leisure/1176832-sydney-harbour-bridge.php?id=1176832

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_closeup/architecture-and-buildings/architecture-backgrounds/4980927-sydney-harbour-bridge.php?id=4980927

Can you please help me out here!? Mainly on what settings to use and to maximise the light e.g. focus points, time of day shooting etc etc.

Many thanks!!!
Kory

[blackcap]

Is there a reason why you didn't post your own photos as well?

From the sounds of it, it's simply too dark for f/11-22 and 20-30 seconds, but looking at the images you linked to, it seems to be a reasonably well lit area. The only thing is that different areas are brighter than others, so it may not be possible to get the exposure right for the whole scene in one shot.

This is where digital blending comes in. You take multiple shots with varying exposures and then blend them during PP. One shot with the bright lights correctly exposed, another with the darker areas correctly exposed. And a few in between maybe.

I've done a few cityscapes at night, and using ISO 100 and f/11, I think the shutter speeds I've needed have been between 10-20 seconds. You can have a look at a few of mine if you like, the EXIF is intact: http://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_gin/sets/72157603728940784/.

Cheers,
Chris

[bestfromnw]

it sounds like you shooting in pretty dark place. it is possible to get good shot even at f/3.5... heres my example iso 160; 30 sec; f/3.5
(also to get best color, use kelvin WB temp settings or try different presets)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/g4hacker/DSC_0120.jpg

[JCH77Yanks]

If you're shooting at night, the histogram will almost always lean to the left, as the scene is dominated by darker tonal values. Night photography can be challenging, which also makes it very rewarding. I suggest you try starting at around 10-12 seconds at f/8 0r f/11 and take it from there. Good luck and keep us posted on how things are going!

[realitysays]

Hi There,

Thanks for the replies, i really appreciate it!! I Have posted some photos i took at the location i am talking about. This is really dark and very late at night. I just can't seem to get my head around how to expose this. I used a "tungsten" white balance here, i can change it either way, but i thought daylight was too "warm" for this. I know tungsten should mainly be used indoors. I have also posted some shots at dusk. I have tried so many settings my hands are bleeding from turning the dial and pressing buttons!
My girlfriend for xmas is buying me a 50D with a 17-40L lense, i am hoping that from what i have learnt from here, and from various other sources, that my photos will turn out better. I wish in one way i never discovered the internet for photography as i am happy with the photos but at 100% it drives me crazy because i am a perfectionist!

Please, criticize photos below and tell me whats wrong with them!

The dusk photos have had the settings for white balance changed, in DPP and changed to the "landscape" setting to bring out more colour although i think it may look too fake. The first photo of the bridge, theres a lot of noise in the sky, i found if i exposed the sky right, the foreground was really dark and if i expose the city right, the sky is really really noisy. I think there is softness or just not enough quality in the lense i am using (18-55 kit lense) and the camera is suitable but could be better for landscape especially night. It seems darker or overexposed around the edges. I also understand, the best focal length is around 24mm?

I also always shoot in AV mode, unless i need to compensate and use manual mode.

Bridge details are as below:
Shutter speed: 30 sec
Aperture: f/5.6
EV Comp: +1.7
ISO: 100
Focal Length: 18mm

Dusk Photo details:
Shutter Speed: 30secs
Aperture: f/11
EV Comp: +1 Stop
ISO:100
Focal Length: 18mm

Sunset Photo Details:
Shutter Speed: 1/125
Aperture: f/5.6
EV Comp: +1.7
ISO: 100
Focal Length: 22mm

I don't know about this sunset photo, whether it is too dark in the foreground or if thats how it should look to expose the sunset properly.

It seems as though when i shoot at night, i either underexpose drastically (through EV Compensation) or i blow out highlights and the histogram display shows what i have blownout. The histogram is mostly always on the left. The sunset photo the histogram was pretty well evenly spread across from left to right.

Many thanks!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/Kozza/DPP_00001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/Kozza/DPP_0005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/Kozza/DPP_0008.jpg

[S7000]

http://www.members.optushome.com.au/prischlfam/HBridge%20copy.jpg

25 sec
F/16
ISO400
20mm

Taken at about 1:30am

---

As you said, yours are over exposed. Why are you trying to go up a stop though? The highlights of lights and what not generally will blow out on the histogram, as will the black of the night (if you don't over-expose), you just have to find the right balance.

If you're trying to re-create the shots from istockphoto you'll need to head out on a similar looking night. The clouds would be adding to the over-exposed image and wont give you that blue/black shade.

I'm pretty sure my white balance was setup as custom for this shot, however if it wasn't, I wouldn't be using tungsten. That could also be adding to your problems.

[Anto Modded]

Thats a lovely shot. Is manual the best way to setup for shots like these. Could you use ''tv'' instead and let the camera do the rest. Hope this does'nt sound like im hi jacking the thread. Just i usally shoot motorsports but wouldnt ming trying some night shots

[S7000]

Thats a lovely shot. Is manual the best way to setup for shots like these. Could you use ''tv'' instead and let the camera do the rest. Hope this does'nt sound like im hi jacking the thread. Just i usally shoot motorsports but wouldnt ming trying some night shots

You can, but it depends on the overall look you want. You may need a minor tweak that is a lot easier to adjust shooting manual.

[realitysays]

Hi S7000.

That is a beautiful shot! May i ask what lense you used? I will guess the 10-22?

I am not trying to re-create the istock photos, i was just providing them as a sample of the area i was trying to photograph to show the lights as i was away from my home computer and could not get my own shots up.

I was just wondering, your photo doesnt look like it has any of noise in it, even at iso 400. Yes, i dont want to use tungsten white balance anymore for night shots, i figured that out hehe.

Is this the original image or is there processing involved?

The reason i am going up a stop, is that if i drop the EV down to 0, its too underexposed. Is there a reason you used ISO 400 instead of ISO 100? Do you feel like theres too much light too use ISO100? Or you found that it compensated well with the settings you had?
Also where was your focus point and what metering mode are you using and why?

Sorry for the newbie question, i am just trying to figure out how to "perfectly" expose this scene as im having difficulties with this night shot.

Thanks!

[S7000]

Thanks matey, and you're quite right I used the 10-22mm.

Ok, where to start...My shot does have a bit of noise in it (the sky mainly), a little more than I would've liked, but it still turned out well. The only PP work I've done is a little bit of work on the contrast, and some sharpening (Maybe a little bit of vibrancy too).

Ok, onto the tech side. Basically when I went to shoot this I had an idea in my head of what I wanted. I needed a long shutter speed to get the silky water, and I needed a f/stop of 16+ to get the bridge and the buildings into focus. My AF point (centre) was on the bridge (I then recomposed the shot locking that focus). The reason I shot at ISO400 is because to get a 25 second exposure at f/16 that was the ISO that got my exposure needle centred. If I shot at a lesser ISO or higher ISO it would've under or over exposed (unless I then changed my shutter speed or aperture). I was using evaluative metering, and metered once I'd recomposed off the lights in front of me.

Basically, if you take the first image you posted, at f/5.6, 30 seconds plus compensation even at ISO100 you're letting too much light hit your sensor. You can also see the back end of the bridge is out of focus due to the big aperture. if you were to use a smaller aperture you'd get the whole shot in focus, and the longer shutter speed could have been achieved. Something like that should've been around 10 seconds (from a guess).

I don't think I can do the best job about explaining the perfect exposure to you. However, a really good starting point is a Bryan Peterson's book "Understanding Exposure". It's not a long read, but it's very informative and should definitely be read by beginners who are learning about photography not SLR's.

Edit:

The effect you were going for can be achieved with short shutter speeds, large aperture and a low ISO however as you can see i'm geting light reflecting off the clouds. This was one of my first pictures I took with my 400D (Once I got the wide angle I went for a re-shoot of this). the exif is:

4 sec
f/4.0
ISO200
27mm

http://www.members.optushome.com.au/prischlfam/Picture%20020.jpg

Couldn't tell you what the white balance was (probably auto), and no idea what the AF points were.

[Canadian Techdiver]

This thread inspired me to try. I only had a few mins when it wasn't raining last friday. I was in Windsor Ontario Canada and got of a few quick shots of Detroit. It was actually hard because it was also foggy over the city at the same time and the fog was reflecting the downtown lights... So here is my first ever try..Thanks for inspiring me.

I will have to look it up for sure.
But I believe
f/11
iso 800 Whoops accident, didn't pay attention..I think you can tell this is iso 800
20 second exposure. 17-85 IS lens @ 17
I was bouncing them around from 15-30 seconds and the 30 second ones were over exposed in areas. Also shot some at f/16 and I didn't like any of them.

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn77/techdiver74/Detroit.jpg

[S7000]

This thread inspired me to try. I only had a few mins when it wasn't raining last friday. I was in Windsor Ontario Canada and got of a few quick shots of Detroit. It was actually hard because it was also foggy over the city at the same time and the fog was reflecting the downtown lights... So here is my first ever try..Thanks for inspiring me.

I will have to look it up for sure.
But I believe
f/11
iso 800 Whoops accident, didn't pay attention..I think you can tell this is iso 800
20 second exposure. 17-85 IS lens @ 17
I was bouncing them around from 15-30 seconds and the 30 second ones were over exposed in areas. Also shot some at f/16 and I didn't like any of them.



You got a lot of grain in there, but I kind of like it. Gives it a dark vintage feel.

[Canadian Techdiver]

My co-worker looked at it and said it best. She liked it... "It looks Gothem Cityish, from Batman" Sorry added the water mark because her cousin works for the city of windsor and they asked me if they could possibly use the photo. So I added it and sent this link as a temp to them. full size image is at home... IT would be way cool if someone used my image for something.. I am a total newbie.. so that is exciting. Hijack off.

Realitysas I like your three shots in the second on you should straighten the horizon... that just throws me off. In the sunset one. I like it but it is up to you if you like that. The bridge will remain dark in the forefront until the sun sets and you get a more even exposure of everything....personally I love this shot. Not quite a nightime shot but I love it.

I shot mine in maual. No EV comp.. I left it at 0 or neutral.... in Maual I can adjust my shutter speed or my aperature whichever I want and then I can just play with it from there. set yoru f-stop to f/11 and then take 4 or 5 pictures at different shutter speeds. Then change to f/16 or f/9 etc and experiment with different shutter speeds. Then open up your files and look at your exif data and write down your favorites... Next time you have a great starting point to go from...

[S7000]

My co-worker looked at it and said it best. She liked it... "It looks Gothem Cityish, from Batman" Sorry added the water mark because her cousin works for the city of windsor and they asked me if they could possibly use the photo. So I added it and sent this link as a temp to them. full size image is at home... IT would be way cool if someone used my image for something.. I am a total newbie.. so that is exciting. Hijack off.

Realitysas I like your three shots in the second on you should straighten the horizon... that just throws me off. In the sunset one. I like it but it is up to you if you like that. The bridge will remain dark in the forefront until the sun sets and you get a more even exposure of everything....personally I love this shot. Not quite a nightime shot but I love it.

I shot mine in maual. No EV comp.. I left it at 0 or neutral.... in Maual I can adjust my shutter speed or my aperature whichever I want and then I can just play with it from there. set yoru f-stop to f/11 and then take 4 or 5 pictures at different shutter speeds. Then change to f/16 or f/9 etc and experiment with different shutter speeds. Then open up your files and look at your exif data and write down your favorites... Next time you have a great starting point to go from...

Nice one buddy!

Best way to learn is get out there and do it. Once you get a feel for what you want, you'll start to achieve it easier.

[realitysays]

I will take into account what you have said and i will take some photos tomorrow night and post them when i get home. Thanks for all the help i enjoyed it, very helpful people! I'll try one of the bridge and of the city centre, although i highly doubt they will look as good as yours but i'll have a play around in manual mode also as i normally just stick to AV.

Many thanks!!

[Canadian Techdiver]

good show mate....

think of manual mode as AV with a little extra control of your shutter speed....it will allow you that finite adjustment....

[S7000]

I will take into account what you have said and i will take some photos tomorrow night and post them when i get home. Thanks for all the help i enjoyed it, very helpful people! I'll try one of the bridge and of the city centre, although i highly doubt they will look as good as yours but i'll have a play around in manual mode also as i normally just stick to AV.

Many thanks!!

Go for gold buddy! If you have trouble in M, Av will be ok, just stick to f/14+. That will give you the longer shutter speed.

[coondogg]

Im currently working through my own problems too...

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/coondogg15210/IMG_3604_edited-1.jpg

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/coondogg15210/IMG_3652_edited-1.jpg

Anyone try a ND filter?

Will it help with the blow outs?

[realitysays]

I haven't tried an ND filter, but i have a feeling it won't work very well as mine is a ND4 and exposure times are long enough as it is now. I think it helps what you meter off also as this determines the exposure once it focuses.

Surprisingly...i haven't gone back and done night photography, have not had time!

[coondogg]

Back with a ND filter. This was a 4 too...

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/coondogg15210/IMG_3726_edited-1.jpg

[nwa2]

I haven't tried an ND filter, but i have a feeling it won't work very well as mine is a ND4 and exposure times are long enough as it is now. I think it helps what you meter off also as this determines the exposure once it focuses.

Surprisingly...i haven't gone back and done night photography, have not had time!

It is all about practice and patience especially with low light landscapes.

Some observations on the shots you posted back in November:
What you are doing right: Using lowest possible ISO; tripod; cable release.

Improvement suggestions:
Stick to Av or manual mode with matrix metering.
Metering at 30secs and above is a bit of a guessing game, so bracket.
Don't get hung up on your histogram, it is going to be clumped to the left because the image is at night.
I use apertures of about f9.0 up to f11.0, avoid those wide apertures there is not enough DoF and smaller is usually not necessary.
Focusing is hard at night, your cameras AF is a bit hit and miss in low light, especially on entry level dSLRs. Use manual focus and focus about 1/3 of the way into the scene.
If you do all the above, lack of sharpness will be down to the tripod. Using a tripod is not as easy as it sounds. With exposures of 30secs+, it is easy to introduce blurr due to vibration. Make sure your tripod is fully locked off, solid and shielded from any wind. I do not know what kind of tripod you are using, but if it is a cheaper version (which can give good results - I used to use one) make sure it is really solid (especially the head).

Atmospheric conditions play a big role in the clarity of low light landcape shots. Keep returning to the scene of the crime, very few landscape photographers get their killer image the first time they visit a location.

The sunset image is real tough to do well, it was a good attempt. Keep trying.

Night landscapes are great fun to do, just need lots of patience, so take a flask and sandwhiches.

[coondogg]

A new one...
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/coondogg15210/IMG_3960_edited-1.jpg

Some HDR too...
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb276/coondogg15210/IMG_3961_59_60_edited-2.jpg

[ulyssesthebarbarian]

Some lovely posts by others here. I just experimented knowing none of the above and got reasonable though not excellent results with: ISO 400, 32 seconds, f/16, on a tripod with a self timer. Canon 40D, 10mm-22m EFS lens. If I were back in Sydney then I would reshoot at ISO 100 and use HDR. The shot attached was taken to show another angle to the infamous dual icons in one panorama.

[coondogg]

I just watched a program on building of the Opera House...

Lotsa drama.

[4g63photo]

Excellent shots. When you guys use the tripod do you weight it down? All i have for a tripod is a Gitzo 1541. Its super light. Im wondering since its so light if it would not be as stable? Thanks

[luigis]

Hi RealitySays,

I will go to the different points I think are important in this kind of photos:

1) About the aperture
The aperture you choose should only be related to the DOF you need, not to the exposure time or other factors. If everything you want in your picture is at aproximately the same distance then you can shoot at f4 without any problems since you don't need a big Depth of field (DOF). Eventually unless you need to use a different aperture you'd want to use the sweet spot of your lens for maximum sharpness, that would be F8 on your kit lens so let's fix the aperture at F8

2) Exposure
Now you need to expose until you have a result that is pleasant to you, forget about the histogram, the darkness and all the chitchat just expose until you say "that's nice" and that would be your exposure time.

3) Highlights
It is very likely that if the shadows are properly exposed your highlights will be blown this is because the dynamic range of the scene is bigger than what your camera sensor can capture. To solve this problem I can think now of 2 simple solutions
3.1) Take 2 pictures one exposed for the highlights and one for the rest, then manually combine them in PS, since you use a tripod shouldn't be very hard.
3.2) Take many exposures at 1EV intervals from the shadows exposure time to the highlights exposure time and then create an HDR shot in Photomatix or any other HDR software.

Hope it helps.
Luigi

[Iversonperspective]

Cars always make for good subjects.

[Joergen Geerds]

hmmm, night photography isn't very difficult, you can trust your meter for most parts, plus with an dslr you see the results right away... so just go out and experiment.

a lot of replies here suggest f11-f16... which is not advisable at all. first, the image quality declines rapidly past f11 on crop cameras, second most lenses have their peak quality between f5.6 and f8. third, whatever rules exist for depth of field and hyperfocal distance, doesn't stop at night, the same rules apply. which means, if you have only elements in the distance and nothing in the foreground, you can easily shoot at f5.6. have a look at dofmaster.com/dofjs.html (http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html). you only need higher f stops if you need a achieve a certain DOF, like in this example, shot at f18: newyorkpanorama.com/2008/04/18/charging-bull-wall-street (http://newyorkpanorama.com/2008/04/18/charging-bull-wall-street/)

otherwise a good starting point is f8, 8s, iso 800 for urban night photography.
if you scene is too dark to meter properly, open the f stop, crank up the iso to max, and do a test shot... if the exposure looks right, paddle back to your planned f-stop, and your planned iso setting, and count how many EVs you need to add, and then do a bulb exposure with the calculated exposure time.

[realitysays]

Hey guys,

Really appreciate all the help you have given me, really, i thank you.

Since posting this, i haven't gone back yet due to time restrictions, but i plan to go back this weekend if it stops raining!!

Since posting this i have learnt a lot of information on different aspects of photography and i plan to experiment again with this scene.

I have also picked up a 10-22 and a 50D (not because i think gear is soooo important, just that i have learnt alot and i do not focus so much on night photography anymore but its still my favourite type of photography).

Hopefully if the weather is fine, tomorrow night i shall head out and have some photos up so i can get some more C+C.

Thankyou for all who have contributed and helped me to learn. I sincerely thank you!

[musicman31]

i plan to go back this weekend if it stops raining!!


I hope it stops too, I'm flying out there on Tuesday! No room for the tripod, so I'm hoping there'll be something on the north side of the harbour that I can wedge the camera on to get some decent night shots of the opera house and bridge! :)