ICC Profiles?? What are they??

[Feihung08]

Hi all, I'm fairly new here and VERY new at printing good photos. I've scanned around the forum a bit and I see alot of people talking of 'profiles'. Specifically ICC profiles?? This sounds like something I need to check into because I'm just not getting the results I want with my prints (very picky). For instance, I have one pic that I've been testing with and it just seems to have a hard time with the 'shadow' areas. I don't know what it's technical term is, but basically it's kind of 'negative' looking? I hope you know what I'm talking about!!

So anyway, now I'm looking to expand my knowledge of printing beyond the old 'load paper, click, and print basics'. And I'm thinking these ICC profiles might be something I should check out??

I have a Canon Pixma ip5000, and the pics were taken with a Canon G5 (which I'm looking to sell to get a 10D!).

Thanks in advance guys!!!

[grandad35]

Here are a few links to get you started.

http://www.normankoren.com/color_management.html
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/color_management.htm

[scottbergerphoto]

The two links above are excellent.
Basically ICC profiles describe how each device that you use manages color. Your camera, printer/paper/ink, monitor all vary in thier ability to reproduce color and in the number of shades of color and range of color they can produce. That information goes into an ICC profile. Then when each device has a profile, each device across your system can communicate to the other in a reliable fashion.
Scott

[maderito]

There are different types of ICC profiles, but they all share in common the idea of relating color numbers to an independent reference standard. In the RGB system, R=102, B=88, G=33 can be a different color on different monitors, printers, and in different color spaces (Adobe, sRGB, etc).

The ICC profile for a monitor, printer, or color space specifies how the color triplet (102,88,33) is represented in a standard reference color space (usually CIELAB). It doesn't really matter what the CIELAB color space is (except that it is LARGE). What's important is that everyone agrees to use it as an independent reference color system. That way, a color management system (Adobe ACE, Windows ICM, etc) can map colors from one device to another based on their respective ICC profiles. Commonly this mapping occurs when sending an image from an editing color space such as Adobe RGB to a printer output space as defined (via calibration) in its ICC profile.

The ICC profile maps colors from one color space to the reference color space (and back) through matrix transformations, a look up table (LUT), and/or more complex mathematical operatons.

Possibly more than you wanted to know. :confused:

[Feihung08]

LOL! Wow! Very complicated! But it is what I wanted to know!
Thanks so much for the info, I'm gonna come back tonight and read through those links Grandad. And thanks for the big help Scott & Maderito!!

So to simplify so that I can get a quick fix, are there pre defined ICC profiles available for my camera and printer that I need to get? Are these something I need to set up manually??

And big thanks again!!

[maderito]

So to simplify so that I can get a quick fix, are there pre defined ICC profiles available for my camera and printer that I need to get? Are these something I need to set up manually??

I'm not familiar with your printer specifically. Canon printers always come with a generic printer that may be invisible to you (it's used by the Canon printer driver). It goes by the name "BJC Printer profile" or something like that. The printer may also ship with software that gives you media-specific profiles for individual Canon papers.

See this sticky for more info and help:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29530

Profiling cameras is a BIG deal - not usually recommended. Trust that it's been calibrated properly in the factory. If you camera's not producing accurate colors, then tweak them during image editing. OTOH - it is common to create scanner profiles since the light source is constant.

You do have to assign your camera image to a color space (sRGB is usually the default) which is defined by an ICC profile. The color space can be set in the camera for JPEGs or, if you are processing RAW, during RAW conversion.

[Feihung08]

Hey maderito!
Didn't want you to think all your hard work and great posts went on deaf ears!! I got super busy but now am going to read up on all the info you've given me!!

So basically.......MUCH APPRECIATED!!!
I'm sure I'll be calling on your talents again here real soon!!
I've got 'lens' questions, and 'paper' questions galore!!

Thanks again!!

[Claire]

I should learn something about printer profiles too as we're getting mom's new computer and printer (Pixma 3000) tomorrow. But it all sounds so complicated to me! I get tired as soon as I start reading about ICC profiles. :(

[Feihung08]

I should learn something about printer profiles too as we're getting mom's new computer and printer (Pixma 3000) tomorrow. But it all sounds so complicated to me! I get tired as soon as I start reading about ICC profiles. :(

I hear ya Claire!!
Here's what I think I've learned so far......
1) Digital cameras use something called 'color space' to encode it's full gamut of colors taken in the pic. Usually sRGB.
2) DSLR's can use "Adobe RGB" instead of sRGB which is a much broader scope of colors and is more than likely able to work better with printers.
3) The ICC profiles help to carry over your 'color space' info from your camera to your printer to ensure your print comes out the way you meant it too!

Anyone want to check my math? :D

[Claire]

Feihung08,
I've gathered that much too! lol I usually start feeling dizzy when it comes to talking about actually putting together your own ICC profiles etc.

[maderito]

There may be some confusion between color spaces and ICC profiles.

An image system handles numbers that represent colors. The standard color spaces (e.g. Adobe RGB, sRGB) represent well defined but different color spaces. So specifying pure green in RGB code (0,255,0) is actually a different color in Adobe RGB compared to sRGB (not a better green - just a different one). The ICC profile defines these and other properties of the color space.

It doesn't really matter much to the end user what color space the camera uses to characterize recorded colors. Some cameras actually use very large color spaces. That information must be presented to the world in a recognizable manner. The camera read out (or RAW conversion output) in the form of image data is therefore translated to a recognized color space - e.g. sRGB.

As mentioned, color spaces are also characterized by ICC profiles that permit translation of the color information from one color space to the anothr. For example, your printer uses an ICC profile so that it can take the data from the incoming color space (e.g. sRGB) and map it to its own color space.

Perhaps obviously, not all colors necessarily translate back and forth between two color spaces perfectly. The ICC profiles also have information on how to handle these problems.

If you take this stuff in small doses, it is less likely to make your hair hurt. :lol:

[Feihung08]

Feihung08,
I've gathered that much too! lol I usually start feeling dizzy when it comes to talking about actually putting together your own ICC profiles etc.
LOL! I hear ya Claire!!
I think I actually passed out onto my keyboard and when I came to I had the 'W', 'T', and 'F' buttons stuck to my face!

We'll get it though! There's some super knowledgeable guys & girls here and I plan on being an expert on ICC profiles & color space before the weeks end!

[Claire]

We'll get it though! There's some super knowledgeable guys & girls here and I plan on being an expert on ICC profiles & color space before the weeks end!

By the end of the week?? You're kidding me, right? I'm happy I managed to print a couple of test pics with our new Pixma 3000. Gotta try different type of paper me thinks, the colours didn't feel punchy enough.

[Feihung08]

By the end of the week?? You're kidding me, right? I'm happy I managed to print a couple of test pics with our new Pixma 3000. Gotta try different type of paper me thinks, the colours didn't feel punchy enough.
Yeah, well, sometimes my ambitions write checks my capabilities can't cash! LOL

What type of paper are you using?? Or have you tried??
I too am on the hunt for the "perfect paper"!
I've only really tried the Canon Photo Paper Pro (their best I think?), and then some Kodak Ultima Glossy on the word of some here. But now I think it looks like I should have got the "satin" version instead. And I want to try the Ilford Classic Pearl as most here seem to like it a lot.

[Claire]

I got some 4"x6" sample papers with the printer. I then for fun tried with an HP paper that I had lying around. The colours didn't "pop" on that paper (maybe I got used to the school's HP printer. That one really makes the colours "pop". I bought some Ilford (can't remember which one) yesterday that I'll try. It might have been the Classic Pearl, but I don't think so. It was really funky paper texture though, so I just had to get it. :)