Canon XL2 or XHA1

[05Xrunner]

Figure this place to post this.
Come spring time I wanna get into video. Now I was really into getting the XL2 for the ability to use the canon adapter and use all my lenses on it. Plus the shoulder mount holding is a big plus to me. easier to keep it stable. Seems the XL2 is PACKED with features as well. now the only down side is that its not HD. Now the XHA1 is HD but doesnt have interchangeable lenses and is not shoulder mount holding style. they are about the same price for each camera but not sure what one would be the better one to get just dabbling into this stuff...I really like the XL2 but the HD XHA1 has me really leaning towards it as well cause of the HD recording quality.

[scotteisenphotography]

Figure this place to post this.
Come spring time I wanna get into video. Now I was really into getting the XL2 for the ability to use the canon adapter and use all my lenses on it. Plus the shoulder mount holding is a big plus to me. easier to keep it stable. Seems the XL2 is PACKED with features as well. now the only down side is that its not HD. Now the XHA1 is HD but doesnt have interchangeable lenses and is not shoulder mount holding style. they are about the same price for each camera but not sure what one would be the better one to get just dabbling into this stuff...I really like the XL2 but the HD XHA1 has me really leaning towards it as well cause of the HD recording quality.

I love my XL2...funny thing. It's for sale! I'm selling it for 1600 if you'd like it =]

[adam8080]

It all depends on what you want to do? I'd go with the XHA1 with a 35mm adapter if it were me.

[05Xrunner]

It all depends on what you want to do? I'd go with the XHA1 with a 35mm adapter if it were me.
the XL2 has that..the XHA1 is a fixed lens.
If I was in the market right now 1600 is a killer price. I wont be buying till around spring time...So how would you rate the image quality of the XL2. even though its not HD...

[scotteisenphotography]

the XL2 has that..the XHA1 is a fixed lens.
If I was in the market right now 1600 is a killer price. I wont be buying till around spring time...So how would you rate the image quality of the XL2. even though its not HD...

The quality is awesome. Obviously it's not HD, but for the definition it is, it's the best.

[adam8080]

the XL2 has that..the XHA1 is a fixed lens.
If I was in the market right now 1600 is a killer price. I wont be buying till around spring time...So how would you rate the image quality of the XL2. even though its not HD...

One of these: http://adapterplace.com/

Not one of these: https://estore.usa.canon.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10051&productId=174196

[05Xrunner]

that looks way to cumbersome and expensive compared to the canon one

[adam8080]

The canon ones allow you to use 35mm lenses with the crop factor taken into account. The other adapter will allow you to use 35mm lenses as they would appear on a 35mm camera including the depth of field that cannot be archived with 1/3" sensors.

http://jtauber.com/2006/03/sensor_sizes.png

It is like a P&S compared to a 5D

[05Xrunner]

well I will just see what I want to do in the end. those adapters are pretty expensive..

[adam8080]

They are. It just depends on the look you are wanting.

[Longwatcher]

I have an XL-2 (with an EF Adapter)
It is an extremely good video camera with a lot of flexibility, especially in the audio department.

But if you are doing audio separately from the video, then I would actually recommend looking at the 5DmkII as an option.

If you are strickly doing video then the XL H1 would be your overall best value for flexability, video, audio and price combined. Although it does have the highest price; it is the lowest priced "video" camera with both HD and interchangeable lenses.

The XL-2 has flexability and price, with good audio, but it is starting to lose the video to HD cameras.

The XH A1 (or XH G1) Has good video and price, but loses flexability for both audio and video options compared to the XL series.

The 5DMkII has the video quality and some video flexability, but not much else going for it other then price and ability to do high quality stills. It mainly lacks good internal audio capability.

Just remember in choosing for video, audio is as important as video.

[05Xrunner]

yes but the 5DII only does 5min of video..i dont want a still cam dubbed as a vid cam. i have a still cam. i want a pure video camera. I think still I am going to be using this as only fun for me. Just like my Camera now just hobby and fun for me. I might go with the XHA1 just cause I will have the best IQ i wont have the flexability of interchangable lenses but the one that it has built in I am sure is pretty good and would probably fill all my needs. I cannot afford 6grand for a vid cam for the XL HD version. So we will see if anything new comes out by spring time when I am ready to purchase.

[salexande867]

I just got an XL2 a month or so ago. I love it. The XL2 with the EF adapter and a 70-200mm f/2.8L is amazing. I also have the 20x and 3x lenses for the XL2. For me, the use of multiple lenses was far more important than having HD (although I did already own a Sony HD camera).

If you are serious about doing video, I think that you are right about not wanting the 5D MkII. It just doesn't have the features for serious video work. It is a great SLR that shoots pretty good video, but it is not a video camera.

[Stealthy Ninja]

I have an XL2 for my business (shooting corporate things mainly) the lens on it is so good, I have only taken it off once (when I had to take it in to get fixed - the camera that is, not the lens). I do have a WA adapter for it, but I don't use that all that much.

The XHA1 has essentially the same lens as the XLH1 (just not interchangeable). The zoom (with a WA adapter from Century or other brand) will do you for 99% of what you need to do (unless you plan to shoot animals, very, very far away).

Personally (after owning the XL2 for a few years) I don't think interchangeable lenses are all that necessary on the XHA1. So I'd buy that over the XL2. It simply makes a better image.

The 5Dmkii will do 12 minutes of video (not 5) on a modern 4GB CF card (the new ones, can't remember what they are called right now... UM???). Since I have the XL2 for my video work, and HD video isn't a big thing/in demand in my area of video production. I'm going to buy a 5DmkII for those select times I'll need HD in the future (say talking heads with extreme shallow DoF etc.) and use the XL2 for the rest.

If I were you I'd get the XHA1. Go for it. :D

My sound guys can capture the sound for me (when using the 5DmkII) then I'll just line up the tracks. Easy enough.

[Bubble]

i would vote for XHA1. I had XL2 and sold it. One thing to keep in mind when you buy Canon camcorder: the value drops like crazy when you want to sell it later. I bought my XL2 from BH for $4000+ and couldn't sell it at half price a year later. Consider it is still brand new. :( Just like 05Xrunner couldn't find a buyer for his XL2 at $1600.

I learn the lesson and bought Sony. The resell value is much better.

[05Xrunner]

yea when time comes I am going for the XHA1..Going for the HD vid and I guess I dont need to change lenses. the one on there covers a nice range. Plus this will be my first video camera so I dont need all the bells and whistles since i wont have a clue to what I am doing to begin with

[salexande867]

Just keep DOF in mind. You will not get the same shallow DOF from the fixed lens vs being able to use the interchangeable lens. I loved the 20X lens on the XL2 until I started using my DSLR lenses on it.

I don't think you can go wrong either way. Both are great cameras.

[echo]

I had the XL 1 and now have the XH A1 and think it's an excellent camera. Audio is good, picture quality is good. It's a great camera. :)

[adam8080]

You will not get the same shallow DOF from the fixed lens vs being able to use the interchangeable lens.

Lenses don't matter when your sensor is the same size.

[Stealthy Ninja]

Lenses don't matter when your sensor is the same size.

And the XL2 has something like a x7 crop factor if I remember correctly.

If you really want shallow DOF on an XL2 you can buy some special rig. But just changing lenses won't help you all that much.

[salexande867]

If you really want shallow DOF on an XL2 you can buy some special rig. But just changing lenses won't help you all that much.

Certainly not true. I have hours of DOF comparison video to prove it.

[Stealthy Ninja]

Certainly not true. I have hours of DOF comparison video to prove it.


Well, I grant you, to a degree you're right... but...


If you shoot in low light (use a wide aperture) and zoom in, you'll have some shallowness in depth of field to be sure. This is why you zoom into the eyes and focus. Because when you zoom in, you have to more precise with your focus because the effective DoF has been reduced. Then when you zoom back out, you can be sure you're focused correctly (so long as you don't have back focus issues). However, these techniques will be nothing like the DoF you get on a DSLR.

The focal length of the lens, the aperture and the size of the sensor is what causes DOF to be shallower.

So yeah, if you stick a 200mm lens on it you'll get "shallow" D.O.F. but the sensor is so small the subject separation is not as much as that you'd get on even a crop camera (40D for example). You also have to get a long way away to get this separation. Not always useful when you're shooting indoors.

Subject separation is one of the reasons why people like the 5D so much.

Like I said, to get proper FILM like DOF you need an adapter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth-of-field_adapter

Longer lenses (DSLR lenses) or zooming in with the kit lens (combined with a wide aperture) will also work, if you have the room. :)

Quote from Wikipedia:
"A depth-of-field adapter (often shortened to DOF adapter) is used to achieve shallow depth of field on a video camera whose sensor size is not adequate to achieve it natively. A DOF adapter could theoretically be used on a multitude of platforms, although it is most useful on prosumer digital camcorders where high resolution is a capability but the sensor size is still small enough to elicit use of the adapter. The term 35mm adapter is common, since most designs use a focusing screen the size of a 35mm film frame (24x36 mm) and interface with lenses designed for 35mm cameras."

Handy when you want shallow DoF but don't have the room to get back and zoom in (or use a long DSLR lens).

Final thought: I guess if you used a lens with a wide aperture (like f/1.4) it could help you get less DoF.

Still, the sensor is the limiting factor here. :)

[neil_r]

I have an Xh A1, it has excelling IQ and the sound is fine with external mikes, were I getting a new one it would not be a Canon until they have a moved away from DV to solid state.

[Stealthy Ninja]

I have an Xh A1, it has excelling IQ and the sound is fine with external mikes, were I getting a new one it would not be a Canon until they have a moved away from DV to solid state.

Which will be when solid state is a bit cheaper and direct to disk editing becomes more mature. Getting close... :)

[kampphoto]

Sent you a msg Scott

[Longwatcher]

The focal length of the lens, the aperture and the size of the sensor is what causes DOF to be shallower.



Just being picky here.
The size of the sensor has no affect on the actual depth of field.
The fact you have to back up or move forward due to the sensor size is what affects the percieved DoF.
At a given distance, with a given lens DoF will not change regardless of sensor size.

On a technical note: pixel size may have affect on percieved DoF if the circle of confusion is smaller then the detector size, but the actual size of the sensor doesn't.

On another note:
The 5DMkII will record supposedly for about 12 minutes in a practical manner, which is more then enough for a full scene of a to be edited movie or video clip, but obviously not enough for documentation of a longer event. The theoretical limit was apparently 30 minutes, but this presumes you are shooting basically a solid color wall and don't hit the 4GB limit before reaching the 30 minute mark.

[neil_r]

On another note:
The 5DMkII will record supposedly for about 12 minutes in a practical manner, which is more then enough for a full scene of a to be edited movie or video clip, but obviously not enough for documentation of a longer event. The theoretical limit was apparently 30 minutes, but this presumes you are shooting basically a solid color wall and don't hit the 4GB limit before reaching the 30 minute mark.

I have not looked too closely at the pictures of the 5D Mk II can anyone tell me where they have hidden the headphone socket and the XLR inputs.

[osv]

Just being picky here.
The size of the sensor has no affect on the actual depth of field.

hmm... it looks to me like the 40d has about half the dof of the 5d, for the lense that i checked:
http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

how would you account for that, if it's not the size of sensor?

if you were buying a prosumer camcorder right now, it would be a good idea to look at the panasonic hmc150... solid state, no tape, much better codec than the canon hdv mpeg2... you'd be giving away some zoom length, but how does the wide end compare?

tape is dead... since you are waiting until spring, see what canon comes up with for a replacement for their hdv prosumer cams... i like canon glass, for the most part.

[osv]

Which will be when solid state is a bit cheaper and direct to disk editing becomes more mature. Getting close... :)

it's here now, and it works... i'm doing it with 24Mbps AVCHD... just make sure that you have a fast quad-core computer! i'm using a 6750 core2duo.

i haven't shot with tape for years, because i was using the firestore before this hf11.

[Stealthy Ninja]

Just being picky here.
The size of the sensor has no affect on the actual depth of field.
The fact you have to back up or move forward due to the sensor size is what affects the percieved DoF.
At a given distance, with a given lens DoF will not change regardless of sensor size.

On a technical note: pixel size may have affect on percieved DoF if the circle of confusion is smaller then the detector size, but the actual size of the sensor doesn't.

On another note:
The 5DMkII will record supposedly for about 12 minutes in a practical manner, which is more then enough for a full scene of a to be edited movie or video clip, but obviously not enough for documentation of a longer event. The theoretical limit was apparently 30 minutes, but this presumes you are shooting basically a solid color wall and don't hit the 4GB limit before reaching the 30 minute mark.

You are picky. :p

DoF is based on aperture and well... that's it really isn't it...

But things like sensor and focal length do cause optical illusions etc. that (for all intends and purposes) cause the DoF to appear to be more shallow. So for the purpose of being simple, let's just say focal length and sensor size change the DoF (subject separation really, but hey that's all an illusion). :lol:

it's here now, and it works... i'm doing it with 24Mbps AVCHD... just make sure that you have a fast quad-core computer! i'm using a 6750 core2duo.

i haven't shot with tape for years, because i was using the firestore before this hf11.


Cheap Solid State?! WHERE?! Let me at it!! :p

Using Firestore is different to AVCHD right? (real question).

I might be a bit behind with the technology on this (more of an editor than a videographer) but I thought the advantage of tape was the Mbps (which AVCHD seems to have matched) and the fact there is very little compression (which I'm not sure is the case with Firestore.

Educate me oh wise sage. ;)

Tape is not 100% dead. But I think we can safely buy a coffin. :lol:

[osv]

the firestore can record the exact same hdv video that you'd get on hdv tape... the video signal is transmitted through a firewire connection to the firestore, where it's recorded onto a hard drive.

i used a dv-based firestore, and it was a revolution back in its day... plug it into your edit system and start editing immediately... i usually copied the files over to my computer first, for backup purposes... here is the firestore review that i wrote on my unit, the newer hdv firestores are similar:
Firestore FS-4 Review (http://www.codectest.com/productreviews/firestore-fs4-dvr.html)

unfortunately, afaik, none of the firestores will transcode video, they can only record the video signal that comes down the firewire cable... in this day and age, they are essentially obsolete, because of solid-state camcorders like the panasonic hmc150, or this little hf11 that i'm using.

with the hf10/hf11/hg20(?), you can record directly to an sd card, then pop it into your computer, and start editing... with the latest sony vegas pro, i can do cuts-only editing on the 6750 core2duo; it plays back at about half-framerate, as long as there are no titles or things like cross-dissolves.

[Stealthy Ninja]

the firestore can record the exact same hdv video that you'd get on hdv tape... the video signal is transmitted through a firewire connection to the firestore, where it's recorded onto a hard drive.

i used a dv-based firestore, and it was a revolution back in its day... plug it into your edit system and start editing immediately... i usually copied the files over to my computer first, for backup purposes... here is the firestore review that i wrote on my unit, the newer hdv firestores are similar:
Firestore FS-4 Review (http://www.codectest.com/productreviews/firestore-fs4-dvr.html)

unfortunately, afaik, none of the firestores will transcode video, they can only record the video signal that comes down the firewire cable... in this day and age, they are essentially obsolete, because of solid-state camcorders like the panasonic hmc150, or this little hf11 that i'm using.

with the hf10/hf11/hg20(?), you can record directly to an sd card, then pop it into your computer, and start editing... with the latest sony vegas pro, i can do cuts-only editing on the 6750 core2duo; it plays back at about half-framerate, as long as there are no titles or things like cross-dissolves.

That's good. Thanks for the info.

[Zepher]

We went from an XL1s and an XL2 to a pair of XHA1's.
Overall, we are pleased with them. the only drawback with them is the XLR audio selection. If you want to go from an XLR input back to the onboard Mic, you have to pause the camera since it is a software switch in the cameras menu.
The XL1 and 2 have mechanical audio switches on the side of the camera.

[osv]

i think that you lose a couple of tracks of audio with the new xha1... it can't record 4 seperate tracks of audio(?)

[MDJAK]

I'll take this as my next camcorder, thank you very much.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/520761-REG/Sony_PMWEX1UC_PMW_EX1_XDCAM_EX_SxS.html

Or the EX3 if i want lens interchangability.

[YONG JIA LIN]

I have Canon XL1s, 16X and 3X lens. But almost never use 3X lens. Interchangeable lens camcorder might not for everybody. Except you have money and like to play arround.

The Sony EX1 and EX3 are wonderfull, 1/2" CMOS Full HD. But SxS memory card are too too expensive.

Just wondering why Canon still not release Full HD with memory card recording media. 5D Mk II can not record seamless after 12 minutes or 4GB. This too bad.