I Got Thrown Out...

[Capt_13M]

Went to see Nashville Pussy and The Reverend Horton Heat tonight. The Pussy kicked arse as usual, took 110 shots of their set, and will poast some of the better ones later. Right now I need to vent abit.

So at intermission I'm approached by a weaselly fook and two goons asking for my creds. They tell me that I have to leave, that the Reverend doesn't want any photographers. I'm like WTF I explain that I've shot gigs at this particular venue for 25 years(Lupo's Heartbreak Hotel with the club staff supporting me) and shot a Horton Heat gig there two years ago without issue. What is the problem tonight??? The Reverend doesn't want any photographers. I explain I'm not a pro, I'm not getting paid, and I'm a fan, that I paid for my ticket. The Reverend doesn't want any Photographers. Well then I want a refund... Get out.

Has this ever happened to anyone else?? Because I've shot some of the biggest names in music at this club over the years and have never had something like this happen before. The club let me in after a quik frisk and checking my gear bag. I was not forwarned that photography wasn't allowed.

All I can say is that I thought they were artists, and I like to thank them for squashing my art.

[john-in-japan]

Jeepers....
It seems pretty clear. Rev said no photographers, pro or otherwise. Ticket does not include a photography option. Rules be rules. Better luck next time methinks.
John

[rabidcow]

Sorry, without the proper pass, you are just another guy/gal with a camera. Amateur photographers think that knowledge is their pass, not so. I have been an event photog for 5 years and I will tell tell you that you NEED to have reason to be there. "Paying for a ticket" lets you see the show. Having proper ID clears you to shoot it.

[Capt_13M]

This is the first time I've ever had an artist squash my shoot. I've been shooting club gigs since I was a teen. Tonite was a first, this was strictly the headlining artist, they pretty much cleared the three galleries that the club provides for event photographers(and more serious amatures) to rotate though. Was like anyone with more than a P&S or a phone cam got swept out.

The club offered to hold our gear so we could stay for the show but at that point the vibe was ruined. The club gives all shooters a wrist band(different color then for drinking for access to the galleries) after they check gearbags on the way in. I always get one like I said been shooting the same venue 20+ years. We were all allowed to shoot Nashville Pussy till our hearts content. The band even allowed shots with fans at the Merch table after the set.

IMHO The Rev has just turned into a monolithic dick

[narlus]

different artists have different restrictions...some don't care, regardless of the venue they are playing. in those cases, sometimes the venue's rules trump that.

the band does have the option to control if they wish...i've shot the Boredoms and they banned even cell phone cameras. i tried like hell to get a pass for John Zorn, and was even shooting for a print publication, but at the end of the day he or his management didn't want any photographers and didn't approve any passes.

don't get pissed, just get acquainted w/ the rules of the game.

[Andrushka]

i've never attempted to shoot concert photography in the states... does anyone comprehend the motivation for artists to not want photographers shooting at shows? Don't artists want/need publicity?

[sspellman]

Cap13-

You need to also respect the artist's wishes. There are proper chanels to use to get permission for photography and you didnt use them. Its unreasonable to expect all artists at a venue that lets you in will never have a concern with a pro camera.

-Scott

[Michael_Lambert]

Bring on the Nashville Pussy pictures.

[narlus]

i've never attempted to shoot concert photography in the states... does anyone comprehend the motivation for artists to not want photographers shooting at shows? Don't artists want/need publicity?

well in this case, the OP wasn't providing any publicity because he wasn't shooting for a media outlet.

cameras are getting more and more capable and cheaper and cheaper...at the current rate, if no restrictions are put into place, the amount of non-credentialed shooters will skyrocket if left unchecked.

[00dahc]

Reverend Norb always let me take pictures of him in his spandex and antler helmet with Boris the Sprinkler... Sounds like your Rev. needs to be smacked. :) But I suppose you should respect his wishes.

[stathunter]

I shoot professionally for news and mags--- even when granted the ability to shoot artists-- many times there are strict time limitations or things that I can't shoot that it really does not make it next to impossible to get much.
In my opinion if they do not want to have photos taken--- so be it--- let them find another way to market themselves.

EDIT--- I had to do a google search to figure out what band you were shooting------I have never heard of them before. The "reverend" has a video on his site that was shot with a childs camera=---and is crap. Looks like the rev cancels as many shows as he plays.

[Mark1]

All I hear is "for 25 years" at this venue". Well all this is pointless. a decision was made and unfortunitley it was not based on your length of service or knowledge of working the event. Some one decided no pics. End of story. Sounds like the artists decision so mentioning the club is moot they have nothing to do with it. This could be your first time there or you could have shot every single show ever there. It would not matter. The artists make the decision. No different than Disney now not allowing any lens longer that 6 inches. "But I have been to Disney for 40 years. Shot here many times"... Well too bad, new rule, no lens over 6 inches. We just have to live buy it.

[johnstoy]

Don't burn bridges... If the venue and or band says no it's a no... I'd recommend finding these things out before going in...

A long paper trail of email communications is best to have with you... I don't leave the house without all of my approval email communication regarding photographing the show...with the band, and the management of both.

[johnms88]

Uh....I regularly get denied even WITH proper credentials. I cant believe you have gone this long without being stopped.

I remember when I shot Lifehouse...there was about 600 people in a room built for 200. It took the tour manager 3 songs to physically get to me to stop me from shooting..which was all I needed (had a pass from Lifehouse..not sure how that worked out).

[narlus]

i've been shut down twice, both w/o credentials. one was security making an arbitrary decision (black keys; they have an open policy regarding taping and photography...the venue's stated policy is that it defers to the band's position). i never heard back from my request for a pass so figured i'd just buy my own ticket and do it. got shut down and had to check my camera gear before the opening band was done. that sucked. the guy also tried to make me format my card but i switched cards when he wasn't looking (i now know how to recover images from a formatted card so that's a moot point).

2nd was for robyn hitchcock...had i known i *needed* a pass, i would have submitted and most likely gotten it (the mag i was gonna write the review for had featured him in an issue a few back), but the club he played has never had a photo policy, there is no photo pit, and i already had my tickets so i didn't need to take a list spot from them. his tour manager shut me down during the 1st song, before Peter Buck got on stage. as i was discussing the matter w/ him, even the club manager who was next to me was unaware that a 'no camera' policy was in effect.

the irony was that midway during the show, Robyn requested that all the P&S shooters to stop using flash.

so, lessons learned by me...always put in for a pass, regardless of what you think you might know.

[Milner]

I had an artist not allow me to shoot his show after he had signed the contract with the venue (which hired me) that said I was allowed to shoot. Sure, I was mad, still am....the show SUCKED. But that is all part of shooting artist....they are moody. When I shot Gladys Knight they sent a staff member with me as a shadow to make sure I didn't shoot anything she didn't want shot....
It's all part of the fun. Most artists are uber cool, but some....Get over it, move on, have fun at the next show!

[Capt_13M]

I understand moody artists, I'm married to a sculptress and I'm a professional Chef.

I've been to some shows that had signs posted No Photography Allowed. I have never had an artist change said rules midstream.

We suspect they were nervous about peeps shooting video which none of us were.

Anyrate I'm over it, more gigs to come WuTang, Gwar, and Ray Davies are coming through in december.

The Pussy shots are coming I need to resize and convert to Jpg. I'm at work now.

[Suicidenote]

I had a similar, yet much more violent experience about a year ago. I went to shoot Static-X at a local club. The club allows photography, but is subject to the artist. They never know until the day of the show what the artist/band will say.

I called the club the morning of the show and they said that photography was permitted. I went, bought my ticket, carrying my 30D around my neck (not hidden) when going into the show and being frisked by security. Everything was fine.....
About 2 songs in I have a large security guard walk up behind me and grab my shoulders. He told me photography wasn't permitted. I started to walk to a quieter location to explain and while walking the guard continued to hold my shoulders and push me through the crowd. When we got to the back, he slammed me into a wall and started to yell at me. I explained that I was told that photography was permitted, but he proceeded to throw me out of the club. I walked back to the entrance and asked to talk to the head of security (club security) and explained what had just happened. He asked me to point out who had done it. When I found the gaurd the head of security explained that the guard was not club security but private security for the band. He found the head of the band security and pulled the offending guard into a back room with me and had a talk with the guard.

After missing about 20 minutes of the show, I was allowed to stay in the club and keep the camera with me. But by this point I was so upset I didn't take any more pictures.

[narlus]

I've been to some shows that had signs posted No Photography Allowed. I have never had an artist change said rules midstream.


midstream? one artist was NP; obviously they were ok w/ non-credentialed shooters. the other was Reverend Horton Heat. he wasn't.

how was that changing midstream?

[blackshadow]

Capt - I think your attitude is all wrong - you may have been shooting without credentials for 25 years at the venue but artists always have final say. **** happens - no use getting bent out of shape about it. If you want to shoot go through the proper channels.

I'm going to be brutal here - for someone who has been shooting for 25 years your photos aren't very good at all. If you want to get credentials you need to lift your game.

All shots are out of focus.

The first shot is totally ruined by the mic in the way.

All the shots of Karen Cuda are poorly composed - that's a major sin as she is one of the hottest looking bass players I have ever seen.

And the flash in songs 2 and 3 gives great rabbit caught in a spotlight look.

Is it any wonder that artists want to restrict photographers when they see results like you posted above? It doesn't portray them in the best light.

I have shot Nashville Pussy and know how energetic they are on stage... about the only thing I agree with you in your posts is that they put on a great dirty ole rock show.

[Capt_13M]

Well if the artist didn't want photographers he should have notifed the venue staff so they could notify us.

Did every one miss where I said I had a club issued photog wrist band, as did the 3 other pros that were there for local radio stations and scene mags.
We wouldn't have wasted our time hauling our gear in and could have left it at the car. Once in it's "No Re Entry". We all had to leave or trust our gear to be in the club coatroom. So yeah I'd say on a two band bill getting shut down at intermission "midstream".

And thanks for the comments on the shots. I never said I was a pro this is a hobbie for me and I'm here looking for tips. I just found it strange as I have never encounterd this over my years of attending show and concerts.

[blackshadow]

Part of the music photography game is that artists do refuse to allow photographers - even photographers that have been approved to shoot the show. It's happened to me more than once because the artist has changed their mind. I'm sure it will happen again.

[Capt_13M]

I find that some start to refuse the bigger they get. Last time I shot RHH about two years ago in a club half the size it was all good in the hood with the Rev. He and Jimbo were out at the bar mingling and doing fan shots. Nashville Pussy got done with their set and went to the merch table hung out and signed shyte. I just wanted to know is it was a common occurance with you pros.

[johnms88]

Capt - I think your attitude is all wrong - you may have been shooting without credentials for 25 years at the venue but artists always have final say. **** happens - no use getting bent out of shape about it. If you want to shoot go through the proper channels.

I'm going to be brutal here - for someone who has been shooting for 25 years your photos aren't very good at all. If you want to get credentials you need to lift your game.

All shots are out of focus.

The first shot is totally ruined by the mic in the way.

All the shots of Karen Cuda are poorly composed - that's a major sin as she is one of the hottest looking bass players I have ever seen.

And the flash in songs 2 and 3 gives great rabbit caught in a spotlight look.

Is it any wonder that artists want to restrict photographers when they see results like you posted above? It doesn't portray them in the best light.

I have shot Nashville Pussy and know how energetic they are on stage... about the only thing I agree with you in your posts is that they put on a great dirty ole rock show.

Phew...someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed!! Hahaha. I do not disagree with what you said for the most part, but I think it may have been slightly harsh for the topic at hand. You need to think about it this way though....he knows he is only a hobbyist so he doesn't try and go through the channels we do to get credentials. I know that probably 90% of the email addresses I am given arent checked anymore because a million photographers that arent good send emails to these people. They prob. get sick of seeing 100 crap photographers a day email them.

Having a standing relationship with a venue is the #1 best way to get started (other than being blessed by god.) That's how I did. Some of us just learn faster than others..or care more which I would probably bet is the case here (and can spend big bucks on ridiculous lenses..lol).


Well if the artist didn't want photographers he should have notifed the venue staff so they could notify us.

Did every one miss where I said I had a club issued photog wrist band, as did the 3 other pros that were there for local radio stations and scene mags.
We wouldn't have wasted our time hauling our gear in and could have left it at the car. Once in it's "No Re Entry". We all had to leave or trust our gear to be in the club coatroom. So yeah I'd say on a two band bill getting shut down at intermission "midstream".

And thanks for the comments on the shots. I never said I was a pro this is a hobbie for me and I'm here looking for tips. I just found it strange as I have never encounterd this over my years of attending show and concerts.

Only in a perfect world. About 90% of the time the artist and touring people have NO connections with the people who make the photo rules and the people who make the pass lists. I cant count the number of times I have been issued a photo pass for a concert, only to show up and have to argue my way into the place cause they had no idea that their label was promising photo passes. Communication just doesnt happen efficiently when bands are on the road.

Im a staff photographer for a venue and my venue issued pass doesnt mean sh** to the band. The band is the final say for everything because, they have the ability to just not play.

Pro or not, you still need to act like one at all times (not insinuating that you dont, just making the point). 9 times out of 10, just being friendly, rational, and polite will get you what you need. You probably havent run into it too much because you have stayed in the crowd. If you were trying to get in the pit, youd be tossed on your as* in about 2 seconds for most acts without a pass.

For the part where you got physically draged to the corner. If that happens again, use that as leverage to get in the pit next time. That bouncer (if im not mistaken) battered you, and since its not his or the bands property, you can use this to your advantage (I think it would be different if it was staff from the venue). Just stay calm the entire time and voice your opinion about how you were treated and how you want it resolved.
(This is up to discretion-- you need to feel out the person in charge first. Definitely don't want to get into a pissing match with an arrogant...you know what).

Your pics are what anyone would expect for a shot from the crowd. Only so much you can do without a 200 1.8 from that far away. Definitely not something I would put in a portfolio though. Got to kill the flash if you plan on getting anything usable.

Part of the music photography game is that artists do refuse to allow photographers - even photographers that have been approved to shoot the show. It's happened to me more than once because the artist has changed their mind. I'm sure it will happen again.

Same here. Like i said before, its all about how you present yourself. This is more for the people who go through the channels, but I will not go to a show without a list of names. Name dropping can get you a long ways. If you know the names of the people running the show, it makes you look like you should be there (because you SHOULD). There's been 2 or 3 times that I (as the staff photographer for the venue) have been refused a photo pass from the label. When the band gets there, we just approach the road manager, be friendly, sometimes give him/her some free stuff, and ask if its ok that we get a pass. Its worked every time.

Part of the reason bands don't allow fans to have dslrs is because of the agreements you need to sign to shoot legitimately. If a band bans all photography, chances are pro phogs have to sign a rights grab release in order to shoot there. Its an easy way for a band to control the photos that are released and get free photography (granted, I have never been approached by a band asking for copies of photos when I have signed a release like this-- but I usually sign it with a ridiculous name or just draw a straight line-- "sorry..this isn't my signature..ive never seen this contract").



I find that some start to refuse the bigger they get. Last time I shot RHH about two years ago in a club half the size it was all good in the hood with the Rev. He and Jimbo were out at the bar mingling and doing fan shots. Nashville Pussy got done with their set and went to the merch table hung out and signed shyte. I just wanted to know is it was a common occurance with you pros.

Its true. Most of it, in my experience (ymmv) it has more to do with the artists label rather than the artist themselves. I remember when Trisha Yearwood came to my venue.... I was denied multiple times by multiple people in her crew (both prior to and the day of the show). I was able to talk to her for a few seconds before the show during the meet and greet, and she had no idea that that was the policy. It was too late at that point to do anything but it shows that the artists probably have no idea (and probably dont really care) whats going on behind the scenes.


Also, the bigger the act, the more people are requesting passes. They can't let every person in the place be a photographer. I would venture to estimate that more than 1/2 of photo credential requests come from fans that want a free ticket/front of house access (can't say I haven't been guilty of this myself from time to time). When a performer gets big, they dont need the stupid fan blogs and no name people circulating their name. They will (in my experience) allow the local daily papers and usually the house photog and thats it (thats for arena shows, not club).

[bacchanal]

The way I look at is like this. You have any of the following: promoter, band manager/security, venue, artist, label. Any of them can say yes or no to photography, but if one of them says no, you're pretty much shut down. At minimum you probably want permission from a representative of the band, and you need to make sure that the venue knows you're coming (that you're on the list).

[CyberDyneSystems]

.... I always get one like I said been shooting the same venue 20+ years.

Lupo's has "changed Venues" three times in the last 20+ years, so this is impossible.. ;)

As has been said, no one has a given right to photograph an artist, if your lucky, your lucky. When you can't, you can't.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Well if the artist didn't want photographers he should have notifed the venue staff so they could notify us.

Not really, were you notified that Horton likes only Fiji brand spring water and vienna sausages in his dressing room? Of course not.
Venues have there own set ot "standard" rules, but part of being a roadhouse is that all of this is subject to change with each booked event, and there specific contracts. It is not always practical for the venue to be in a position to keep it's patrons up to date on the subtleties of the contracts.

[Capt_13M]

CyberDyne now we're talking symantics. Lupos is lupos wether it's on Aborn st, Washington or two blocks down the street. Rich has always let me in with my camera.

anyways didn't mean for this to get out of hand or to be totally bashed. I just wanted some insite and constructive crit.

I guess I won't find it here.
As stated I shoot for my memories and relaxation.

I'll remove my crap photos as soon as I get home tonight. Feel free to lock this thread.

[blackshadow]

Jeez man harden the @#$% up!

No one has been totally bashing you.

You came here complaining and making out that it was your God given right to photograph a band because a venue has let you do so before. If the attitude you showed to the "weaselly fook and two goons" was like you have demonstrated here it's little wonder they wanted you out.

I was blunt about your photos and attitude - I call a spade a spade and make no apologies for that. My comments on your photos were aimed at giving you a kick in the butt and maybe to start to learn to develop "your art".

You come in here full of bluster yet when people tell you how it is you get all petulant. Not a great way to interact in these forums.

[skifurthur]

Quite a few of the comments are based in real world experience, Capt_13M. Keep in mind that many of the restrictions that touring bands have come from their experience, as well. Often a non-pro take a good photo and decides to make money off of it, much to the chagrin of management. That leaves a bad taste in their mouths and they then take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. I'm not saying that is what you have done, I'm saying that the bad apples are the ones that spoil it for all...pro's included.

In another life, I often birddogged for a high ranking record company exec. I was asked to check out the band, see the interactions, see if any of the artists where overindulging and report back. Even when given credentials from the highest level, I would on occasion run into interference from touring staff, venue staff and the occasional over-zealous bouncers. I've been left off of guest lists, removed from a venue, screamed at and more. All I have ever done is calmly explain why I was where I was and how authorized me to be there. And if that didn't work, I shrugged my shoulders and moved on. Pretty much unless you are The Rolling Stones, wires get crossed, egos get involved and things get beyond anyone's control. You learn to understand the rock doesn't run like other businesses.

A good illustrative example is when Bruce Springsteen did the first of 3 nights at Giants Stadium this past summer. My arrangement with Bruce Inc. is that I get to shoot the whole show when almost everyone else gets three songs. Well, after the other photographers were escorted out of the venue, I was doing my job and taking photos. A local security person came up to me, got in my face and removed me from where I needed to be. I explained that my pass, not the standard photo pass, allowed me to be there. I asked him to speak to the head of Bruce's security to confirm that and he refused stating that "he knew what XXXXX wanted and he wanted me removed." I left knowing that I would be back the next night...anyway, I got enough photos to fulfill my end of the contract.

The next night, I talked to XXXXX and the local PR rep for the artist. Sure enough right after song 3 the same security guy attempted to do the same thing to me and Danny Clinch...even Danny was shrugging his shoulders. Well I stood my ground and insisted that he speak to the higher ups. We both stopped shooting and waited. By the end of the song the security guy apologized and went off to hassle other people.

It happens and life it too short to get upset. As for the venue checking cameras, I have never had a problem with that. I smile, explain who I am, that my camera gear are my work tools and I have walked away knowing that they will take good care of it. It's all in the presentation.

[londonblue007]

I can't agree more with blackshadow and skifurthur. Its up to the artist in the end. Doesn't matter what/who/where you've shot in the past, the artist makes the rules, end of story.
Do I think you should have gotten thrown out, actually, yes. Lets look at this from another perspective. You are a Chef. You make some killer food. RI Magazine decides it to sooo friggin awesome that they want to photo your food for the cover. They do this at 8pm on a Friday night right in the middle of the Restaurant. Some guy in the corner who's been eating at your restaurant every friday for the last 20 years sees this and decides to shoot your food with his camera. Using flash, OFF, ehh angles, half eaten, blah blah blah (i'm just saying. I never saw your pics, but using Blackshadow as my reference). I bet you'd ask him to not photo your food. He'd complain using the "i've been eating here for 20 years every friday night" and you'd reply "yes mr smith, I know, but don't photo my food". He'd even tell you that "Martin", the maître d' let you bring the camera in. But this is the first time you've seen the cam and YOU, the Artist, don't approve.

Its up to the artist, not the venue, not the security people, not you the ticket holder, not jimmy the toilet cleaner.

Don't get bent out of shape because some high altar artist like the Rev (no pun intended) said no to you. Who cares. You didn't have a pass, so you had nothing to back you up except the door guy lets you.

As for your photos, no one bashes here. (well not on the performing arts section at least). We are honest about our critiques. Blackshadow has torn into my work before, but also praised it. So has Rene and Dwight and Skifurthur, Tim, etc. I joined this forum to LEARN and see what I was doing right and wrong. I thought I was the best most amazing Photog on earth when I first posted and was very very quickly humbled. I respect the opinions of the people on here, and hope they respect my opinion as well. Most of these guys do this for a living, therefore they know what they are talking about.

[skifurthur]

I want to echo what londonblue007 said, "I joined this forum to LEARN and see what I was doing right and wrong." That is exactly what I did less than two years ago. I had a camera, I had two lenses and almost everything I learned was by trial and error and bounching stuff off of the people already here. I then took that info, practiced and made a living out of this stuff.

[CyberDyneSystems]

.... I just wanted some insite ...

I guess I won't find it here.

That is up to you alone at this point, but you will find people willing to offer advice, in some cases very specific to your situation, from people with experience, in some cases in the same venues and with the same owners you deal with, in some cases in venues much larger as well.

Who knows, you may even find help from someone that has the power to grant you access to such venues? You never know.

[londonblue007]

anyways didn't mean for this to get out of hand or to be totally bashed. I just wanted some insite and constructive crit.

I guess I won't find it here.
As stated I shoot for my memories and relaxation.

I'll remove my crap photos as soon as I get home tonight. Feel free to lock this thread.

Agree with Cyberdyne... And I'd have to say, what you got for crit. was what I got my first posting! Don't let it bug you that your work got "ripped" first time posting. The only way to learn and better yourself is through work work work and a few constructive and "ripping" critiques now and then. I used to get really pissed and hate it, but then I realized, these people are trying to help. They are being honest and up front. Isn't that what you want?
Continue to post, Say up front you need help, and want as much advice as possible, and I promise you people will give it. Some will be negative, some positive, but they are opinions too. Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one.
Again, continue to post. Don't let these things get you down. We'll help. I'll help. And when i post, feel free to give me your honest advice and critique. I will listen - Why? Because I work for bands directly, only occasionally a publication. That means I like to know what fans like. I like to know what makes the average viewer go "WOW, I want to see those guys". The better my work gets, the more gigs I get, the more photos I take, the more money I might make.... it goes on. That's why I post here, thats why I comment for others, thats why I like comments.

[AdamGasson]

These things happen and bands have the last say, never the venue. Without the band the venue will go under, and they both know that. I'm sure if you've been shooting at the club for 25 years then you can come to arrangement with them, perhaps suggest you'll shoot all their gigs in exchange for a free pass. You'll get a free ticket, they get shots. Good deal I think.

As a sidenote though, and spoken as a professional who shoots music as part of his income to pay the rent and bills, I'm glad they told you you can't take photos. There's too many people taking photos at gigs and it's ruining the industry. I have friends at music magazines who admit they'll use a free photo to save on the budget.

[geeewocka]

Agree with most of what has been said

I've been approved to shoot many times, rocked up to the venue & been told I'm not on the list....but I always make sure I have a print-out/mobile number handy to call the right people - took me an hour+ to explain my way in to Korn, turns out the employee from the promoter who confirmed me no longer worked for them a week after I contacted her, so a big chain of calls had to be made, but I kept calm and it eventually all worked out

As for the critique, I initially wanted everything to be positive & tell me how awesome I am (lol) - course this was way off in the real world & I learnt that if you can't take the bad comments you will never grow as an artist

I love people telling me what's wrong with my work, gives me inspiration to strive for the perfect shot