Going pro?

[petemc]

I imagine its even harder to become a professional photographer these days than it used to be. Just as everyone can be a bedroom webdesigner, one of my pet hates with my current job, everyone can now be a photographer. I remember reading someone's post saying to find a niche market and milk it. I guess thats true of any job http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/images/smilies/smile.gif I nearly applied for a job as a junior photographer for the local paper recently, but decided that it might be better to keep photography as a hobby so it doesn't get corrupted by money and silly people messing me around. I've had that happen once so far with my odd photography jobs. I had to go all the way down to Leciester, 2hr drive there, 2hrs back just for 20 photos of buildings. They also stiffed me on some of the petrol money. I don't want to have my photography corrupted in that way, to the extent where I don't want to take photos any more. I'm currently a web designer and I used to love doing that, but now when I come home and have to work on my own sites I just hate it. More web design, gah.

When I think about what area of photography I'd like to do, I don't really know. I know I don't wanna do product shots for catalogues, same thing every day. Another box, another toy... Lingerie sounds good tho http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/images/smilies/wink.gif But then I'm not the most chatty of people. I think I'm too shy for portrait shots. The thought of having to control random strangers is a bit daunting. But then, confidence comes from defeating your fears so I guess thats good http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/images/smilies/smile.gif I can't imagine making a living of random arty shots. So far, in the 6 months that I've been selling pictures on my site, I've sold 2 and they were both to a friend. The recent talk of someone wanting to buy my Juliette Lewis shots has made me wonder about doing gig photography. Liverpool has such a great scene that it could be intresting.

I've been doing photography for 2 years now and I still haven't found my style or niche area yet. mrk does great portraits and I'm sure he'll make it as a portrait photographer. If only I could get bitten by a mutant spider, then I could easily make some money selling pictures.... http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/images/smilies/wink.gif But then, even Spiderman has a terrible life. *shrugs*.

[IndyJeff]

I imagine its even harder to become a professional photographer these days than it used to be. Just as everyone can be a bedroom webdesigner, one of my pet hates with my current job, everyone can now be a photographer.

There are people who have no problem with going out and shooting and then giving away their work just to see their name on a photo credit or for access to an event. When you try to explain that they are damaging an industry by working for free they will actually defend themselves by saying they have a right to give away their work if they want to.
Then you have websites that allow a customer to download photos for a small fee and use them anyway they want to. The guys who provide these photos get excited because they make $5-10 a month off their photos. The people who use them get excited because they save thousands of dollars a month.
Other sites, like one which was posted here, will allow someone to request a certain photo. Then you have people who will go out and search for that subject to create that requested photo and basically give it away.
You want to make a living off this? Good luck and I wouldn't quit my day job just yet. I love digital but, it has been the worse thing that ever happened to the photography industry.
Then of course you have organizations like Getty who pay money and try to lock out any sort of freelancing. Other organizations who will pay you but, they own the copyright and the photographer loses all futrue rights on that photo.

[Jon, The Elder]

Indy Jeff touched on the essence of what is happening today. Think what the Canon 350D is going to do to the market this year. I am seeing more high end point and shoot cameras every weekend now DSLR are upping the ante even more.
Old school wedding shooters are really crying the blues!!

In my case luck had a part. My daughter trains Arabian horses for a living. Here in the states there are more horses than there were 100 years ago.
I shoot horse competitions and have found that niche market that is working quite well.
having said that .... I am not overly fond of horses, dirt, smells etc. that go along with the subject matter. Also you do have the parents, mostly the MOR's (Mother of the rider).
No matter what area you get into you will have a LOT of interactivity with people, and the natural exchange of buyer/seller thinking that goes on.
Doing ANY pro activity ain't easy - and high profile work like photography is just plain STRESSFUL at times.

Bottom line is... if you are good, and persistant,you will succeed. Sucess however, has a price of its own.

[Persian-Rice]

At the end of the day, however good your equipment is, it does not make you any better of a photographer.

I think if you go out and shoot with a love for the art and have some natural skill on the side, you will do alright. The good shooters will make good money, because they are just that, good. Now that I shoot events on a regular basis, I see many people, both men and woman, going out and shooting for the parents. They think they are good because they pull out a 10D and some cheap long lens and start shooting away.

I actually ran into a problem on umm, I think it was last Wednesday. Shooting at a playoff game where I have exclusive rights to shoot the team, one of the relatives or whoever she was had the bright idea of bringing her equipment(10D, 75-300, and a 420ex). I don't mind people using SLR with long glass etc etc, I am not an ass, but people cross the line. First, she was using flash, which I don't really get, but anyway, her flash ruined more then 10-15 of my shots. I decided to go up to her and politely asked her to stop using the flash as it was interfering with my work. She tried to refuse at first(her glass was too slow), but I explained the situation and she had no choice. I still said it was ok to shoot, but increase the ISO, no more flash.

I later found out she has told some of the parents she will take shots and e-mail them to everyone for free. Umm, I don't think so. But it was a little late, she had 30-40 shots. I do very well selling shots, Rep is very very expensive and the majority of parents are quite wealthy, which means sales are easy. However, if I loose 10-15 sales because of people like this, I will start enforcing my rights regularly. I had some of the pictures e-mailed to me from the parents, luckily they were pretty bad, so I am not worried this time. My shots compared to most hockey photographers that I have met are either as good or better. The parents know their choice is good and make lots of purchases.

I always understood what the other guys were saying and I always sympathized with them, but now I understand why they get so angry. But this also confirms my other point, if you have any sort of skill, you will do fine. I would be lying if I said that these "amateur pros" who shoot for free in order to make a name don't have an effect. But I had to make a name too and I did that while making money.

Think of it this way, many of the people who shoot for free have images that are not worth paying for anyway, thats why they don't charge anything.

[Jon, The Elder]

Yup - three of us so far.

Like my Daddy said "Cream rises to the top". The title 'amature' fits so many. Lotta hard work to the next step 'Talented Amature'. and so on......

[Scottes]

First, she was using flash, which I don't really get, but anyway, her flash ruined more then 10-15 of my shots.
How? I'd think of you taking a 1/200 shot just when her 1/5000 flash went off... The chances seem pretty slim.

[Jon]

Redeye reduction?

[Persian-Rice]

Scottes, I dont know why.......but it did, mind you I took about 250 shots that game....to be honest, I had 7 bad shots due to flash.

[GerryDavid]

How? I'd think of you taking a 1/200 shot just when her 1/5000 flash went off... The chances seem pretty slim.

I think I just read this flash has a slave capability, so when his flash went off, it triggered the girls flash.

[FlipsidE]

While at Charles' workshop, toward the end, about 3 of us were takin shots with our fastest lenses while another was using the strobes. Somehow, while taking a 1/60 shot, the 1/7000 strobe fire got one of my shots. Talk about slim chances. But, it did happen. I eventually wanna post that picture, though...it turned out to not be completely white, and it was definitely an interesting shot. Either way, it can happen...rare, but it can happen.

FlipsidE

[Deckyon]

Off of the whole flash situation and back to the purpose of this thread, what we are seeing is the normal coarse of digital items. Is everyone with a "prosumer" phd (push-here-dummy) camera a professional? It depends. The digital camera allows people to shoot and shoot and shoot and it does not cost to view the photos. While it appears the be saturating the market with "pro" photographers, only the good ones will ever make any real money. The people with the money to spend, the ones who do not have to ask "how much?" will recognise the difference. I think it will eventually even out in the long run.

For myself, I do not see myself as a professional, even after selling many prints. I do not rely on photography to pay all my bills - only new camera gear. I also do not go out and solicit sales from people and companies. My thoughts are, in the places I have some prints up, people will contact me for a sale. I am friends with a lot of local professional photographers and they are more about the weddings and portraits. One of my friends here does only architecture photography for museums and historic houses. I shoot photos I like, and put up for viewing the ones I think are better than the rest and if someone like it, they buy it.

Am I taking someone's sale? I doubt it. I am not going out seaking those architecture shots or doing weddings or portraits. The only portraits I have done are of my own family, however we would not get portraits done otherwise. The only event I have done is my sister's daughter's baptism, and they would not have had anyone in to do it professionally anyways.

[Jon, The Elder]

DECKYON - has got it right also.

I had it happen to my film/Video production company in the 80's when "CamCorders" flooded the video field. every college kid with a AA degree became a producer. Where are they now - certainly not still in the business !!

35mm film shooters - same thing !

Technology is not what makes you good -

Hard work-skill-talent and a dose of luck all have to come together. And, you make a lot of your own "luck".

40+ years of shooting and thats what I've seen.

[johnellisphotography]

I think these last two posts are in the right direction. Another good comparison is the Desktop Publishing craze of the 80's. When personal computers became affordable, people all over were printing experts and companies all across the world were turning out absolute crap for reports, ads, and annuals. After about 5 years of this, it faded as people realized that tools dont make a good carpenter so to speak. Same is happening in photography. Unfortunately, its not over yet and it's gonna destroy alot of peoples businesses. Hopfully by the end of the decade this will start to fall off.

[Jon, The Elder]

It's gotta happen faster than that- I'm gettin' OLD!

[BayAreaPhotog]

An interesting discussion here. I am a tv camera operator by profession and a serious amater photog. I have an interest in pool/billiards. So, a few years ago, I shot some photos at a pool tourney. If you want a challenge, shoot a pool tourney. No flash allowed, very poor lighting (direct overhead lighting only), like golf, it's very subtle so no movement and the noise of shutters, autowinders, etc. . . become a distraction.

Anyway, I shot some very nice photos and submitted them to a major billiard magazine. . . there really are only about 2 or 3 billiard magazines. They liked the photos, (and were much better than the ones that they published) but they didn't purchase any photos because regular fans were willing to give them photos for free in exchange for a name credit. To this day, I will not give them any photos for free.

Unfortunately, this is becoming a generation that has settled for poor quality. Look at shows on television like Americas Funniest Home Videos. . . years ago, the FCC had video standards. That quality of video would never have been allowed on air - (unless it was the only video available of a major plane crash). . . now, there are shows based on crappy amatuer home videos. The public watches this stuff so much that they now except that quality. The media outlets don't have to pay for quality when people are giving them and excepting poor quality . . . Unfortunately, I think the younger generation is more enamoured with the technology than with the quality. . . I know in broadcasting, they have lowered the bar instead of having the consumers rise up to the broadcast standards . . . too bad.

[Jon, The Elder]

Right again -
I work in Automotive design and production. A big reason for the slump in US autos, is the fact that "good enough" is good enough. No PERSONAL PRIDE.

I have a motto that I have used for 30 years, goes like this:

"Good, Fast, Cheap..... pick any 2"