Grammar question

[davidinvirginia]

I am curious about the grammar used when talking about companies. I see on this forum and others the phrase "Canon are ..." used. I thought that corporate names were treated as are individual names. I would say "Canon is ..." Just wondering.

[20droger]

It depends upon context and location.

Context: A corporate name may be considered a collective noun. Therefore, if you are referring to the corporation as a single entity, a singular verb is called for. On the other hand, if you are referring to the people in the corporation, then a plural verb is often (but not always) called for. This context rule is usually used only in formal writing.

Location: In other than formal writing, U.S. grammar tends to favor the use of a singular verb, and British grammar tends to favor a plural verb.

Of course, one could be politically correct and cover one's bases: "Canon does/do make good lenses." But please don't!

[davidinvirginia]

Thanks. I thought it might be a difference in use between the British and the Americans.

[nphsbuckeye]

I usually don't notice a difference. However, do NOT use apostrophes when making something plural. Annoys me to no end...

[yogestee]

When referring to Canon as the company one would use "Canon is blah blah blah".. Singular..

When referring to Canon as cameras one would use "Canons are blah blah blah".. Plural..

When referring to one Canon camera one would use " My/Our/Your/Her/His/Their Canon is blah blah blah" .. Singular..

[Pugwash]

It depends upon context and location.

Context: A corporate name may be considered a collective noun. Therefore, if you are referring to the corporation as a single entity, a singular verb is called for. On the other hand, if you are referring to the people in the corporation, then a plural verb is often (but not always) called for. This context rule is usually used only in formal writing.

Location: In other than formal writing, U.S. grammar tends to favor the use of a singular verb, and British grammar tends to favor a plural verb.

Of course, one could be politically correct and cover one's bases: "Canon does/do make good lenses." But please don't!


Hmmm..... interesting.

Being English and of old school I agree and disagree with you at the same time. I would always say "Canon is" when referring to them as a company. That is the way I was taught English grammar but I know others would say "Canon are". I've always taken the latter expression as being down to laziness or not having been taught good grammar. So much of our language in this country has now been taken over by grunts when speaking and SMS abbreviations when writing, by so many, that I fear correct grammar will disappear as us 'oldies' in turn depart this Earth.

My grammar is nowhere near perfect but it does 'grate in my ears' when I hear others use the plural verb without even thinking about what they are saying.

I know language should evolve but when rules are broken through laziness or lack of teaching it is very sad but that's just me - a dinosaur.

As for those apostrophes - don't get me started!

EDIT
Hoisted by my own petard! Reading back through my post I see I have referred to Canon as "them" when I should have said "it". I guess this is more catching than I first thought.

[SkipD]

What really irks me is reading items written by supposedly educated people who don't even capitalize first words in sentences or use periods at the end of sentences. A "paragraph" becomes just a long string of words and it becomes very difficult to separate the thoughts within.

I find it amazing at how many high-school graduates are apparently unable to write with correct grammar and spelling. I'm not referring to those who are using a variation of "texting" language in their writing, but those who are trying to write fairly important things.

[20droger]

Basic grammar, like basic math, basic history, basic geography, etc., is fading. So sad. We are producing a generation of ignorant offspring. But then, we have absolutely no-one to blame but ourselves.

last week i couldnt spel graduate now i are one

[yogestee]

What really irks me is reading items written by supposedly educated people who don't even capitalize first words in sentences or use periods at the end of sentences. A "paragraph" becomes just a long string of words and it becomes very difficult to separate the thoughts within.

I find it amazing at how many high-school graduates are apparently unable to write with correct grammar and spelling. I'm not referring to those who are using a variation of "texting" language in their writing, but those who are trying to write fairly important things.

You should try teaching English language including grammar to non native English speakers..

BTW,, the grammar I see in my students is better than some of the grammar I read in these forums from native English speakers.. I realise English is a developing language but I just can't stand the bastardisation of the English language..

[GilesGuthrie]

"<company name> is" is viewed as being correct. The company is an entity. If you are referring to a team within the company, you can use "are" since the team implies a collection of individuals. Thus:

"Canon is making an awesome collection of lenses. The design team are rightly proud of the new features."

[Mike-DT6]

In British English, collective nouns can be used in the singular or the plural, depending entirely on the intent of the writer. As Roger has already pointed out it depends on the context.

American writers seem to use collective nouns in the singular far more often than plural.

Mike

:-)

[20droger]

Being an American writer, I can truthfully, and sorrowfully, say most American writers can't.

But that's okay, because most American readers can't, either.

[Mike-DT6]

Neither can most of us over here! :lol:

[Wilt]

Thanks. I thought it might be a difference in use between the British and the Americans.


It is!!! By common usage...

Americans say "General Motors is planning to lay off..."

Brits say "General Motors are planning to introduce..."


BTW, American universities have in recent years seen it necessary to teach writing and remedial English to college students before they graduate, because they come out so poorly able to do business writing, technical writing, etc. with the free form blather that results from the recent writing techniques taught in school...random thoughts gathered together, not first outlined and then filled in.

[Woogie]

I usually don't notice a difference. However, do NOT use apostrophes when making something plural. Annoys me to no end...

+1:mad:

Example: I shoot with two 5D's.

[Wilt]

+1:mad:

Example: I shoot with two 5D's.

But proper English to do so! ...when the plural of a word which consists of letters and numbers...

"Learn your ABC's" or "Learn your ABCs" are both acceptable

Would you write "Iraq War had few M1s destroyed" or "Iraq War had few M1's destroyed" in a reference to tanks killed in action?

[ProjektSol]

bad grammar annoys me

[Sparky98]

When I was in high school back in the 60s I was taught that a singular subject required a singular verb and a plural subject required a plural verb. We were taught to use a singular verb with nouns such as Canon, team, or news media even though it was understood that they were comprised of more than one person. However I do remember back in the 70s,80s, or 90s someone decided that a collective noun required a plural verb so the proper phrasing then became Canon are, the team are, the news media are, etc. It sounds wrong to me but I thought that now the correct way of writing was to use a plural verb with any noun that represents a group. Now everything I read from newspaper articles to company memos uses a plural verb with a collective noun. Let me rephrase that since the subject of that sentence is a collective noun - Now everything I read from newspaper articles to company memos use a plural verb with a collective noun.

Another change that I haven't accepted yet is the omission of the comma after the next to last item in a list before the "and". Example: I got out my camera, my flash, and my light meter. Now that comma after flash is no longer required but my high school teacher would have lowered my grade for lack of punctuation if I had left it out.

[Wilt]

Now everything I read from newspaper articles to company memos uses a plural verb with a collective noun....Another change that I haven't accepted yet is the omission of the comma after the next to last item in a list before the "and". Example: I got out my camera, my flash, and my light meter. Now that comma after flash is no longer required but my high school teacher would have lowered my grade for lack of punctuation if I had left it out.

Rules, damned Rules!

[yogestee]

BTW, American universities have in recent years seen it necessary to teach writing and remedial English to college students before they graduate, because they come out so poorly able to do business writing, technical writing, etc. with the free form blather that results from the recent writing techniques taught in school...random thoughts gathered together, not first outlined and then filled in.


Wilt,, I believe this is a world wide trend..

[Woogie]

But proper English to do so! ...when the plural of a word which consists of letters and numbers...

"Learn your ABC's" or "Learn your ABCs" are both acceptable

Would you write "Iraq War had few M1s destroyed" or "Iraq War had few M1's destroyed" in a reference to tanks killed in action?

I would write Learn your ABCs and Iraq War had few M1s destroyed.

[number six]

I would write Learn your ABCs and Iraq War had few M1s destroyed.

As would I. Disagree that the apostrophized variation is acceptable. Sources, Wilt?

EDIT: should I have said apostrophised?

-js

[Tbirder]

"<company name> is" is viewed as being correct. The company is an entity. If you are referring to a team within the company, you can use "are" since the team implies a collection of individuals. Thus:

"Canon is making an awesome collection of lenses. The design team are rightly proud of the new features."


Hi, there are two schools of thought on the team thing. To my way of thinking there is one team, so "The design team is rightly proud of the new features."

Or, "Members of the design team are rightly proud of the new features".

However, I do appreciate that 'team' does suggest a number of indivuiduals.

[yogestee]

But proper English to do so! ...when the plural of a word which consists of letters and numbers...

"Learn your ABC's" or "Learn your ABCs" are both acceptable

Would you write "Iraq War had few M1s destroyed" or "Iraq War had few M1's destroyed" in a reference to tanks killed in action?


M1s is plural of M1.. M1's belongs to M1..

Example,, Many M1s were destroyed.. The M1's mechanism was destroyed..

[Tbirder]

M1s is plural of M1.. M1's belongs to M1..

Example,, Many M1s were destroyed.. The M1's mechanism was destroyed..


True...

... and if there were several M1s it would be "many M1s' mechanisms were destroyed"

[number six]

Wilt certainly knows the difference between possessive and plural.

As I understood his comment, when it could be confusing to pluralize (pluralise) it's acceptable to use an apostrophe - the common case where we see this is with pluralis(z)ing acronyms. I disagree.

Wilt, did I state your position accurately?

-js

[nphsbuckeye]

Apostrophes=contractions and possession.

[number six]

Another change that I haven't accepted yet is the omission of the comma after the next to last item in a list before the "and". Example: I got out my camera, my flash, and my light meter. Now that comma after flash is no longer required but my high school teacher would have lowered my grade for lack of punctuation if I had left it out.

Your teacher was wrong. Some can be educated by students, some can't. I was usually lucky to have the good ones who hadn't quit learning when they left college.

EDIT: I hope I understood this right. The comma after flash has never been required. Except by those who shouldn't be teaching grammar.

There are some really good references out there - my wife is a writer and has found that even the accepted standard authorities sometimes duel over details.

I think her current go-to book is the New York Times Manual of Style. But I probably have the title wrong - it's not here and if I go downstairs to her office I have no hope of finding anything. :lol:

-js

[number six]

Apostrophes=contractions and possession.

The best rule ever for apostrophes, catastrophes and commas: "When in doubt, leave it out!"

:cool:

[nphsbuckeye]

Moving on from apostrophes, prepositions at the end of phrases/sentences send me into furies (which happens back home somewhat frequently, as I'm a native of Appalachian Amurika).

[nphsbuckeye]

The best rule ever, for apostrophes, catastrophes and commas: "When in doubt, leave it out!"

:cool:
That's what she said.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

[number six]

Moving on from apostrophes, prepositions at the end of phrases/sentences send me into furies (which happens back home somewhat frequently, as I'm a native of Appalachian Amurika).

This has devolved from a hard and fast rule to a matter of style, I think. And it's not just here in the colonies.

Winston Churchill had a decent command of the language, IMHO. A long time ago, perhaps even before I was born :shock: , he was taken to task for ending a sentence in a speech with a preposition.

His response: "Madam, this is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put!"

-js

[tracknut]

As would I. Disagree that the apostrophized variation is acceptable. Sources, Wilt?

EDIT: should I have said apostrophised?

-js

My understanding is that this stray apostrophe-for-plural is acceptable when it adds clarity or avoids confusion to the reader (see Columbia Guide to Standard American English for a reference). I often use it for the plural of acronyms, though my understanding is that this is an older usage than just slapping on the "s" and presuming folks can understand it. So I would have written "Many M1's were destroyed" since it's not clear to me that "M1" is a completely common term, and the alternate "M1s" might just make folks think "huh?"

Dave

[nphsbuckeye]

It may clarity for those ignorant of the English language, but it wrong. "Many M1's were destroyed" is passive and shows possession, not plurality.

[tracknut]

It may clarity for those ignorant of the English language, but it wrong. "Many M1's were destroyed" is passive and shows possession, not plurality.

Well there are a lot of English language sources that say that it's okay, I certainly am not just making it up...

Dave

[number six]

My understanding is that this stray apostrophe-for-plural is acceptable when it adds clarity or avoids confusion to the reader (see Columbia Guide to Standard American English for a reference). I often use it for the plural of acronyms, though my understanding is that this is an older usage than just slapping on the "s" and presuming folks can understand it. So I would have written "Many M1's were destroyed" since it's not clear to me that "M1" is a completely common term, and the alternate "M1s" might just make folks think "huh?"

Dave

Yeah, we need to remember that if our readers don't understand it's we who have failed.

In this case it's time to take command of the damn sentence and say something like "Many M1 tanks were destroyed"

Not so bad, right? Just one more word...

EDIT: As Humpty Dumpty said, "It's a question of who is to be the master, that's all."
(I love it when I get a chance to quote Alice!)


-js

[Tbirder]

...In this case it's time to take command of the damn sentence and say something like "Many M1 tanks were destroyed"

Not so bad, right? Just one more word...
-js


Spot on, rather than 'if in doubt, leave it out', change it remove the uncertainty.

Now, can anyone tell me why 'abbreviate' is such a long word?

[yogestee]

Another change that I haven't accepted yet is the omission of the comma after the next to last item in a list before the "and". Example: I got out my camera, my flash, and my light meter. Now that comma after flash is no longer required but my high school teacher would have lowered my grade for lack of punctuation if I had left it out.

I'd mark my students down if they include a comma after flash..

[Woogie]

Yeah, we need to remember that if our readers don't understand it's we who have failed.

In this case it's time to take command of the damn sentence and say something like "Many M1 tanks were destroyed"

Not so bad, right? Just one more word...

EDIT: As Humpty Dumpty said, "It's a question of who is to be the master, that's all."
(I love it when I get a chance to quote Alice!)


-js

I thought about this the other day when I saw that a person had written that they are the proud owner of two 1Ds's. I was thinking he could have said I am the proud owner of two 1Ds bodies.

[Tbirder]

I'd mark my students down if they include a comma after flash..

Commas confuse me, perhaps you could help? When describing a date, is this correct? 'On 1 November, 2008, John Smith purchased a new lens.' Or shouldn't there be any commas at all?

[20droger]

But proper English to do so! ...when the plural of a word which consists of letters and numbers...

"Learn your ABC's" or "Learn your ABCs" are both acceptable

Would you write "Iraq War had few M1s destroyed" or "Iraq War had few M1's destroyed" in a reference to tanks killed in action?
I'd write "Iraqi war had few M1s destroyed," but only if I were forced to use the plural of "M1." Note also that the adjective is "Iraqi," not "Iraq." Again, this sentence would refer to the destruction of tanks, not the killing of them. You can't kill a tank, in action or otherwise, since a tank was never alive.

I agree with number six, however. 'Tis a poor sentence at best.

[20droger]

bad grammar annoys me
Indeed! Then why use it?

[20droger]

Another change that I haven't accepted yet is the omission of the comma after the next to last item in a list before the "and". Example: I got out my camera, my flash, and my light meter. Now that comma after flash is no longer required but my high school teacher would have lowered my grade for lack of punctuation if I had left it out.
Actually, the comma is required legally (though many lawyers seem to have slept through that class), as there is a court case, Texas, if memory serves, where the lack of a comma caused confusion in a will. It was ultimately decided that, since the comma was missing, the last two entries were co-equal. Being a will, the items were people, three in number. Thus the bequest went one-half to the first listed, and one-quarter to each of the second and third listed, instead of one-third to each of the three listed.

The U.S. government stand is that the comma is mandatory. The GPO has a relatively large book out that defines the official American English Grammar. And no, it is not what W. uses.

[20droger]

Commas confuse me, perhaps you could help? When describing a date, is this correct? 'On 1 November, 2008, John Smith purchased a new lens.' Or shouldn't there be any commas at all?
A comma in a date is there to separate adjacent figures, as in "November 1, 2008." In the format you used, "1 November 2008," the comma is unwarranted because there are no adjacent figures.

I use the day-first format all the time, without a comma, for legal reasons. In fact, I use it so often that the month-first format seems awkward and unnatural to me.

[Wilt]

As would I. Disagree that the apostrophized variation is acceptable. Sources, Wilt?

EDIT: should I have said apostrophised?

-js

No sources...I was merely posing the question, "Which way would you...?"

[Wilt]

As would I. Disagree that the apostrophized variation is acceptable. Sources, Wilt?

EDIT: should I have said apostrophised?

-js

Just found this
http://grammar.about.com/od/punctuationandmechanics/tp/GuideApostrophe.htm

"
6. Generally, Do Not Use an Apostrophe to Form a Plural


As a general rule, use only an -s (or an -es) without an apostrophe to form the plurals of nouns--including dates, acronyms, and family names:
Markets were booming in the 1990s.
The tax advantages offered by IRAs make them attractive investments.
The Johnsons have sold all of their CDs.To avoid confusion, we may occasionally need to use apostrophes to indicate the plural forms of certain letters and expressions that are not commonly found in the plural:

Mind your p's and q's.
Let's accept the proposal without any if's, and's, or but's.


(http://grammar.about.com/b/a/000091.htm)

[nphsbuckeye]

I thought about this the other day when I saw that a person had written that they are the proud owner of two 1Ds's. I was thinking he could have said I am the proud owner of two 1Ds bodies.
1Dses. Joneses. Add -es to the end of a singular word that ends with "s".

[nphsbuckeye]

Just found this
http://grammar.about.com/od/punctuationandmechanics/tp/GuideApostrophe.htm

"
6. Generally, Do Not Use an Apostrophe to Form a Plural


As a general rule, use only an -s (or an -es) without an apostrophe to form the plurals of nouns--including dates, acronyms, and family names:
Markets were booming in the 1990s.
The tax advantages offered by IRAs make them attractive investments.
The Johnsons have sold all of their CDs.To avoid confusion, we may occasionally need to use apostrophes to indicate the plural forms of certain letters and expressions that are not commonly found in the plural:
Mind your p's and q's.
Let's accept the proposal without any if's, and's, or but's.


Once again, it's not the writer's fault that people can be ignorant towards grammar; I don't dumb down my sentences to avoid confusion.

[nphsbuckeye]

This has devolved from a hard and fast rule to a matter of style, I think. And it's not just here in the colonies.

Winston Churchill had a decent command of the language, IMHO. A long time ago, perhaps even before I was born :shock: , he was taken to task for ending a sentence in a speech with a preposition.

His response: "Madam, this is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put!"

-js
There are many other ways to say the same thing Churchill intended to convey. Is it right probably not, but like the theme of this thread, many people don't know or don't care to correct it.

[nphsbuckeye]

Well there are a lot of English language sources that say that it's okay, I certainly am not just making it up...

Dave
Quadruple post!:cool:

I could write something and get it published, but that doesn't make it fact.

[yogestee]

Commas confuse me, perhaps you could help? When describing a date, is this correct? 'On 1 November, 2008, John Smith purchased a new lens.' Or shouldn't there be any commas at all?

"On the 1st November 2008, John Smith purchased a new camera."

That's how I'd write it..

[DunnoWhen]

Oh how I would love to jump in here.....:)

Instead, may I just say how pleasing it is to observe so many colonials preserving the "Queen's English".:)

[20droger]

Oh how I would love to jump in here.....:)

Instead, may I just say how pleasing it is to observe so many colonials preserving the "Queen's English".:)
Well, if you guys would do a better job yourselves, we wouldn't have to! Those of you from Cornwall and Yorkshire can hardly understand each other. And forget those born within the sound of Bow Bells! And as for those in other parts of the U.K, och, mon!

[goldcanon]

A comma in a date is there to separate adjacent figures.

[Tbirder]

A comma in a date is there to separate adjacent figures.

Cool, thanks yogestee and goldcacnon

[20droger]

A comma in a date is there to separate adjacent figures.
Must be an echo in here. (See post #44).

[20droger]

"On the 1st November 2008, John Smith purchased a new camera."

That's how I'd write it..
Interesting. Grammatically incorrect, but interesting.

Ordinals should not be used with dates without the word "of" interposed. Also, ordinals less than tenth should be spelled out, the same as with cardinals. In this case, the year would normally be set off with commas, as a parenthetical indicating which first of November is meant.

[Tbirder]

Must be an echo in here. (See post #44).

My apoplogies, I missed your post #44. Thank you

[acchildress]

My understanding is that this stray apostrophe-for-plural is acceptable when it adds clarity or avoids confusion to the reader (see Columbia Guide to Standard American English for a reference). I often use it for the plural of acronyms, though my understanding is that this is an older usage than just slapping on the "s" and presuming folks can understand it. So I would have written "Many M1's were destroyed" since it's not clear to me that "M1" is a completely common term, and the alternate "M1s" might just make folks think "huh?"

Dave

And you are entirely correct! M1s could be a bunch of M1's or some new model number "M1s".

[acchildress]

It may clarity for those ignorant of the English language, but it wrong. "Many M1's were destroyed" is passive and shows possession, not plurality.

Were you trying to say "it's" wrong?

[nphsbuckeye]

Were you trying to say "it's" wrong?
Sorry, typo.