View Full Version : Pushy Models on MM
18th of November 2008 (Tue), 15:26
I have a question: how many images do you normally give to the girls on a TF shoot? Do you have any strict guidelines?
I'll go first....I DO! I have very well outlined guidelines explaining in detail my presonal policy. I generally give the girls b/n 8 and 15-16 images for a regular 2-3 hrs shoot and 2-3 dress changes. I select the images and I retouch them.
So far I had not had any problems -- the girls I have shot with love me and the images they receive from me and are literally knocking on my door to shoot them again and fit them in my schedule.
That was until this one model started asking for ALL the images...I tried to be nice and refer her to my profile explaining what she should've read in the first place. She is completely out of line and pushy, which I can handle but the thought that I have misled somebody ( which I have been trying so hard to avoid ) I can't! It just bugs me so much!
I'm sorry I am just venting I guess.
Still, I would love to know what your TF policies are and if you've had any less than perfect experiences with delusional models.
18th of November 2008 (Tue), 15:41
On my first couple of TF shoots I provided all the images from the shoot for her to look through and pick her favorite shots so I could retouch. These were just 640 size, just big enough to see them ok. But next thing you know before I even get a response from her, she had some of the pics up on her mm profile. (And of course they were the worst ones)
I'm not in this to make any money, just a hobby for me. So I'm not worried about only giving up so many images due to cost, I just don't want any images that don't show the best of what I can do out on the net with my name on them.
From here on out, I'm going to right away delete any that aren't keepers or fixable. Then I'm going to put them into a flash gallery quick and give them a link. They can let me know the numbers they want and I'll provide those retouched. Due to time, my limit is about 10 pictures total.
18th of November 2008 (Tue), 15:50
I negotiate with the model, but typically, not more than 10-15 retouched images. Sometimes I'll provide prints if they want them, but no matter what, the number of images to be provided are listed on my model release as compensation.
18th of November 2008 (Tue), 16:06
I don't ever give anyone ALL images. I cull thru them, and pick what I determine are the best. I'll then process those, and give them to the model(s) & MUA involved. I'm changing my thought process though, to only process no more than 15 images. But at the same time, I'm more patient and don't just click-click-click any more. My shot count is down, and quality up.
18th of November 2008 (Tue), 16:30
depends on how I feel :-)
if I'm generous then quite a few pics from the session. if I'm on a time crunch then one from each good pose i deem good. just depends on time allotted for the shoot.
18th of November 2008 (Tue), 20:21
The number I give directly depends on the shoot. Very often I have a single image in my head that I shoot for. So we literaly shoot 30-40 variations on one idea-- somtimes variations of the same pose. There is no point in giving 15 nearly identical images. I may give 3-5 of the best ones. But I explain this before we shoot. Often before we even settle in a time and date. They know they will only get a handfull, and so far I have found that they work harder for them. They need them to be good just like I do. I dont often shoot with a "let's see what we get" style where you can get 15 good shots. But even if it is a TFP, I will tip gas money or a bit more if they are good. They like that a lot. And a happy model is very easy to ask back.
I will also randomly send some to them. If I get to work on one of their shots while learning a new technique and it turns out good, Ill send it (Low rez ). I have sent copies out months after a shoot. Just another thing to keep them happy.
19th of November 2008 (Wed), 16:56
My question with regard to this question is what do you all do with the rest of the images that you don't edit?
I really don't 'need' all the images from a shoot...but I have no idea what to do with them, either, once proofs are delivered.
19th of November 2008 (Wed), 18:00
If they are not first choices they get dumped. Well I have a "first and a half" choices too. Seconds and worse get deleted. Closed eyes will always be closed eyes.... trash. Misfired strobe....trash. If it is not a first run now, what might make it one later?
19th of November 2008 (Wed), 18:36
Usually inexperienced models who are not too familar with the industry will ask for an arm and a leg, I avoid those.
To date I have yet to have a model ask me to outline the TF agreement prior to the shoot; this includes professional and non pro models. At the end of the shoot they always ask, "So... how does this work." LOL
Typically I give them what I use, if I can't use anything I give them 1 or 2 edited pix and thats all they get.
The majority will ask for a CD. I always ask, so what do you intend to do with a bunch of unedited pix? They would say... "Oh I just want to see them." Okay, no problem... I send them thumbnail sized images LOL. I do this because in the past I have had some models edit the pix, so by sending them pix that are so small for editing, I avoid this all together ;)
So why don't I have them sign a release not to edit pix?
LOL, I get people asking me that all the time. Models will do it anyways, regardless whether or not a release was signed.
Works for me so far and I'm not short on models to shoot. Sure you are going to run into a few bad apples that will bitch and whine about not receiving pix. To those I always tell them the common sense rule. If you waste my time, I waste yours. Showing up to a shoot hung over, looking like crap expecting me to photoshop your face to perfection is not acceptable. If you can't pose, I can't shoot, and if I can't shoot I can't edit, so they get nothing more than 1 or 2 pix.
Again, you'll run into these obstacles by models who are inexperienced. Models who have been in the business and work with pro photographers will not demand nothing more than 1 or 2 pix that they can add to their existing book. Finding these types are difficult. Sometimes offering pay isn't enough, they HAVE to like your book.
19th of November 2008 (Wed), 18:54
you do excellent work, and should command the respect that you and your work deserves.
i havent run into pushy people like this yet.. other than family members.. but its easier for me to tell family to pound sand.
do you make them sign a contract before the shoot?
the way i read your MM profile is incredibly easy to understand. so i really dont know how she has the nerks to act like that.
i hope all of the people on here are able to give you some really great advice.. not only for you.. but for anyone else reading this post.
vent anytime.. were always here for ya ;)
19th of November 2008 (Wed), 19:53
Thanks guys, really good info here! :) and thanks Shanny! :)
I am still rationalizing this in my head -- I want to be as nice as I can be...within reason. By the way, one girl has asked me to do the picking and I know that some photographers will actually let the model pick a few favorites and will work on those, but that's another thing that I will not do.
I select the "winners" of the shoot.
I think about it this way -- do models pick the images for a Vogue shoot after it's done? No, they don't. It's probably the photographer, working with the art/ creative director, etc. It is my job to pick the BEST images, thinking not only about my own port needs, but also of hers -- making sure that the images I select portray her in the best possible light, give her a good variety of angles and "faces," etc.
inthedeck, I have kept most of my images only beacuse I haven't had the time to weed through them and start erasing freely. I will probably run out of space on my comp soon and will definitely have to do it though! lol
19th of November 2008 (Wed), 20:04
What it comes down to though is, do they fully understand how many pics they get, AND that you get to choose which ones before the shoot, and agree with it?
Why 15 images(which seems to be the norm), just curious?
19th of November 2008 (Wed), 20:08
This is funny, but unless she was exceptionally good -- 12-15 is about the number image at which I get incredibly bored with that particular shoot. I mean, how many angles can you look at/ work on from the same setting?
As for the question--yes, I would hope they do...but apparently that is not always the case. I really do spell it out for them in writing, but I guess I will start repeating it verbally when we meet before we start shooting.
19th of November 2008 (Wed), 22:09
Talkin' about HD space...holy snap. I'm about to start burning CD's by date. Done.
Informative thread, thanks for starting it.
Oh, and I'm beginning to realize that thumbnails are the best answer. Thanks Kesler, et al.
24th of November 2008 (Mon), 08:50
I agree up front that I will edit 10 images of her choice from the proof gallery that I provide online. I also state that any other images I choose to edit she will also receive copies of, so usually a model with get around 15 images.
I never give all images out and explain that I shoot in a format (RAW) that require each image to be processed, and while I can knock out a proof gallery quickly these are not checked for correct skin tones, exposure and sharpness ... and that any images I provide represent my ability as a photographer and that I am not prepared to let any images out unchecked.
I haven't had a single model get funny at this point, they usually just accept that I would take too long to process 2 hundred or so images.
24th of November 2008 (Mon), 14:14
I give them all the ones I edit
4th of December 2008 (Thu), 11:07
I give about 10-15 edited high res photos and low res web friendly ones. I edit about 20 of them but only give 10-15. In my model release I say 10.
I think I will move to giving a proof sheet and having the model chose which ones they want.
5th of December 2008 (Fri), 04:59
I have only done a couple, but it has worked for me to do approx 15-20 and give to them on cd. I get them to sign a contract outlining tfcd with 10 images. I give the reason that I have a high quality control and only want my best images going further than my computer, so even if we shoot 400 images, it will only be the 10 or so that will be any good, then when there's 15 or so i can say "we did well", they feel good about the shoot and go tell everyone else and i get more work.... maybe, but thats my tfcd marketing ;-)
21st of December 2008 (Sun), 13:47
Your images are excellent!
The problem with TFP shooting is that once word gets around that you have great images AND do trades, that is what is expected by the models contacting you.
When I do a trade shoot, I only give 10-15 edited and branded images(which I tell the model upfront.)
23rd of December 2008 (Tue), 15:16
I've only encountered 1 maybe 2 models form MM that aggravated me about more shots...After I finish the shoot and look through the shots at home, I'll contact the model and give them an estimate of how many I think will be keepers. anywhere from 5-10...but more along the lower numbers I absolutely love.
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