Photoshop and My Monitor

[Sydor25]

When I view my pictures in Photoshop, the shots have very good shadow detail/dynamic range, but when I view the same photo with the Microsoft Picture Viewer and/or online, they appear very dark and have almost no shadow detail. Looking on the same monitor, does anyone know why my pictures look so different between Photoshop and MPV? When I print the photos, they come out somewhere in between (but closer to the Photoshop version).


When I try and load my monitor's ICC profile, everything becomes washed out and there is nothing I can do with the brightness/contrast controls to bring the black level down to what the shots look like when printed. My monitor is a Viewsonic PS720, which is an old 19" CRT monitor. Is it time to get a new monitor? Does anyone have any experience using a two monitor system to edit photos? I was thinking of getting a new monitor and using it to preview the photo and use my old one for displaying the photoshop tools.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[steven]

What color space are you using in PS?
I don't think MPV is color space aware, so it will default to sRBG and this could be a problem if you are using a different color space in PS.

As for the ICC, I think the whole idea behind ICC is that is controls the setting you are trying to vary to give you a known brightness/color. So having an ICC profile in place and trying to vary those setting is conflicting.

[Sydor25]

I've switched PS to my monitor's color space and now the images online and in PS are much closer. I'm testing prints now to see if they will be closer to what I see on the monitor in PS/online.

Thanks.

[Sydor25]

Still fighting with PS and my monitor. Do these two pictures look exactly the same to you guys? When viewed in PS they do look the same, but when viewed online (this post) they are different.

http://sydor25.com/Pictures/Sunset_2_28_05_422.jpg

On my monitor this looks lighter (when posted) and it looks the same in PS:
http://sydor25.com/Pictures/Sunset_2_28_05+422.jpg


Can you see the lighter band of clouds in front of the darker clouds?


Here is an exaggerated picture to show the different "brightness" of the clouds that should appear in the above photos:


http://sydor25.com/Pictures/Sunset_2_28_05+422x.jpg



Can you guys let me know which one is lighter or if they are the same? :confused:



I'm going to print the two different files and see how them come out.


[edit] Both pictures came out like the second image posted (how they looked in PS). Now why do the posted pictures look different on my monitor (or yours if they do)? :confused:

[PacAce]

The 2nd one is definitely lighter than the first one.

[PacAce]

Your operating system is going to take care of setting up the correct profile for your monitor so there is nothing you should do in PS as far as the monitor profile is concerned. You PS working space should be set to either Adobe RGB or sRGB (there are a few other color spaces you can use but you don't have to worry about those for now). Now, if you image file is tagged with the appropriate profile, then everything should fall into place very nicely without much effort on your part, other than making sure your monitor has been properly profiled, that is. If the file is not tagged, then you should assume that it's sRGB (unless you know otherwise) and assign the profile as such.

[musthavemuzk]

i noticed this same thing earlier this week when i finally installed PSE2 as well as got my butt out to take some pics.
i installed PSE2, the canon utility. this is on a 2 week old XP pro install.
i noticed the colors in the canon utility were much better than MPV and a touch better than the canon utility.

samsung syncmaster 753DF 17"flat crt monitor. about 4 years old now

hmmm
sounds like this is something i need to learn about to make me happier with my pics. as i was viewing them with MPV and well totally unhappy with the pics...
viewed them in the canon utility and was a bit happier, but things are still not matching what i remember my eyes seeing.

did not add much but thought i would put something here since it seemed close to my issues.

now would monitor calibration software/hardware help with this?

Monty

[infeeneetee]

same problem here... i adjusted my monitor calibration (adobe gamma) past few days.. now when i save my photo in sRGB from PS using adobe RGB working space, my photo totally different, a bit saturated ....

so.. how do i adjust my monitor back to normal??

[grandad35]

Assuming an XP operating system, right click the desktop, click Properties/Settings/Advanced/Color Management. This will list the profiles currently associated with your monitor, and you might be able to find a profile that you like better. You can also browse your system for additional profiles by clicking "Add".

You should also look in "Documents and Settings/All Users/Start Menu/Programs/Startup" - these programs run at startup. Make sure that you do not have two programs that load your monitor profile at startup. In addition to Adobe Gamma, some other monitor calibration programs (e.g. the one that came with my Samsung flat screen) install a program to load their profile at startup. Some profiling software (e.g. Eye-One) instructs you to remove the Adobe Gamma and other loaders from the startup directory. Obviously, having two loaders simultaneously trying to load different profiles is not a good thing.

[musthavemuzk]

alrighty then. i never loaded up the disk for my samsung monitor.
never felt the need to do so.

when going to add icc profiles there is about 25 to choose from.
only a couple are remotely familiar.

how can i get new ones?
or modify the existing ones?

is calibration hardware and or software a good idea if you are wanting more from what you have?

Monty

[infeeneetee]

Assuming an XP operating system, right click the desktop, click Properties/Settings/Advanced/Color Management. This will list the profiles currently associated with your monitor, and you might be able to find a profile that you like better. You can also browse your system for additional profiles by clicking "Add".

You should also look in "Documents and Settings/All Users/Start Menu/Programs/Startup" - these programs run at startup. Make sure that you do not have two programs that load your monitor profile at startup. In addition to Adobe Gamma, some other monitor calibration programs (e.g. the one that came with my Samsung flat screen) install a program to load their profile at startup. Some profiling software (e.g. Eye-One) instructs you to remove the Adobe Gamma and other loaders from the startup directory. Obviously, having two loaders simultaneously trying to load different profiles is not a good thing.

how to remove adobe gamma?

[grandad35]

Musthavemuzk – It is not a good idea to load some else’s profile for your monitor, as every monitor is different (also, most of the profiles in your system aren’t even for monitors). For example, the brightness and contrast settings affect your display’s colors, and they are adjusted as the first step in any monitor calibration procedure. Even the best profile will be inaccurate if it was generated with different brightness/contrast settings than you have. This is one reason why the generic profiles provided with some monitors may not be acceptable.

Did PSE2 load Adobe Gamma and its loader? My Adobe Gamma is located in “C:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Calibration\Adobe Gamma.cpl”, and you can run it by double clicking on it. Instructions can be found at http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/321608.html (http://www.adobe.com/support/techdocs/321608.html), and lots of other information can be found by googling for “adobe gamma”. If you don’t have Adobe Gamma, your Samsung CD may have a monitor calibration program.

These simple (and free) calibration programs give acceptable results for many people. If your work is critical (you are selling it), you should consider having your monitor calibrated with a system that measures your display’s colors and uses this information to generate an accurate profile (e.g. Monaco, EyeOne, etc.). You can also have this done by someone who does this professionally (google for “monitor calibration service”).



Infeeneetee – You can remove the Adobe Gamma loader by removing its shortcut from your startup directory. It is probably a good idea to create a new “Unused_Startup” folder under “Programs” and move it there just in case you want to put it back at a later date.

[infeeneetee]

thanks grandad

[musthavemuzk]

no kidding
thank grandad.

at this point in the game i do not plan on selling anything. just for my use and learning and enjoying/capturing things around me. though it could change in time.
adobe gamma loader does start at boot. win XP pro here
if i run it i can adjust the settings and then save it as a icc profile and use it later?
will have to check to see if the cd that came with my samsung has a thing to change the settings.

i have thought about calibration stuff, but with this being for kicks it is hard to justify the money.
mayb oneday.

i do that you so much for taking the time to explain things like this.

is info like this in the sticky?
if not it should be

Monty

[grandad35]

Musthavemuzk - If you run Adobe Gamma, it will automatically generate a profile and install it as your default monitor profile. As was stated in a previous post in this thread, do not install profiles with two programs.

You can generate multiple profiles with Adobe Gamma - just delete old profiles from your Color Management display (see previous post) before running Adobe Gamma, rename them so that they won't conflict with your new profile name, and re-import them back into Color Management. You can then easily switch between profiles. But why would you want to? Carefully generate one that is as good as possible and stick with it.

[musthavemuzk]

makes sense to do it right the first time, but since this is new to me i might not do it right the first time. so knowing it can be changed is a good thing.

will it make a difference if i do this at night or during the day? light through windows or just from overhead incadescent lighting?

or is that taken into account when doing a profile?

thanx again.

Monty

[chris.bailey]

Tried this on my profiled monitor setup and Microsoft Picture Viewer in XP does not seem to be ICC aware or at least if it is it does a pretty bad job of it.

The whole profile/colour space issue sounds really confusing but when you get it sorted it is relatively simple.

1) Profile your monitor using Adobe Gamma as the minimum WHEN WARMED UP and in normal ambient light conditions. That profile will then be used by your operating system for that monitor every time you start windows. Having done it dont change brightness, contrast etc on your monitor and re-run it pretty regularly. Monitors do change with age.
2) If you use a third party profiling system (Spyder etc) remove Adobe Gamma from Startup. The two will conflict.
3) If your camera shoots sRGB set that as the colour space in PS, if Adobe RGB (better) set that as the colour space.
4) If you are printing, try to get ICC profiles for the paper/printer combination you are using and set that in the print with preview colour settings in PS and turn off printer colour management. Set black point compensation to on and use perceptual rendering in the print dialogue for most uses. (Might be CS only). Ignore all the prepress settings.
5) If you are lab printing, ask for a copy of their profiles and use these.

Thats about it. There will be differences as the ability of different devices to render the colour space you have set will change but it should be pretty close. i.e if a colour falls outside of that devices gamut, it will be rendered to a colour that is within it. As the gamut of different devices is different, that rendering will produce different results.

Having colour managed your workflow be prepared for images to look 'wrong' if you view them in a non-colour managed environment e.g. if you send them to someone else.

If you are saving for web, if necessary, convert the colour space from aRGB to sRBG and save as a different file. Converting between colour spaces is a lossy process.

[grandad35]

Musthavemuzk - Changing the lighting conditions absolutely affects how your eyes perceive the color on the display, even if the display itself doesn't change, so it is important to have a "stable" work area. Look at the flesh tones in the same image with your monitor under day/night and lights on/off conditions to see this for yourself. Some professionals go so far as to wear a gray smock, as the color of your clothing can have a (small) effect on your perceived color (see Katrin Eismann's excellent book "Photoshop Restoration & Retouching" pp 22-25 for a discussion on the importance of your work area). This is one of the things that is covered in a monitor calibration procedure. This is "going over the edge" for most people, but there are even standards for the "color temperature" of your work area if you want to meet ISO standards. Here is a link where you can download Eye-One's training modules and go through their calibration procedure:
http://na.i1color.com/index.cfm?menuitemid=272&menugroup=USA+-+Color+Knowledge+Secure

This should answer a lot of your questions, and will probably bring up many more.

Chris - On my XP Pro system, I can open a photo in PS7, MS Photo editor, MS Paint, Windows Picture and Fax viewer, MS Internet Explorer, and the colors on all 5 displays look exactly the same. My system uses the "Logo Calibration Loader" installed by Eye-One instead of the Adobe loader, but I can't believe that that is the difference. Does you video card support profiling? If it does, the loader downloads the color transformation information from the profile onto the video card so that all programs will use it without their knowledge. If your card doesn't support this, I assume that PS then performs the color transformation before sending its data to the video card. The Windows programs are not "color aware" and do not use the profile information.

I second your other points.

[musthavemuzk]

thanx for that info.
surely my head is going to explode soon with all this newfound info.

if i have anymore i will be sure to ask.

thanx again

Monty