Will the new Rebel devalue my 20D

[MDJAK]

Having just purchased the 1Ds Mark II, I'm mulling selling my 20D. I may keep it to have a backup, lightweight vacation camera, but I know I'll prefer to take the 1Ds Mark II, and so it just may sit in the camera bag unused.

Will the upcoming new Rebel make my 20D less desirable to someone? I figure right now, on a private sale, it would be worth approx 1000-1100.

[bauerman]

That might be the first time I have ever heard something the size of a 20D being called a "lightweight vacation camera"......personal perspective is indeed unique.

[karusel]

Indeedely doo.

MDJAK: yes. But the real question is, for how much?

[Bruce Hamilton]

If it devalues a 20D, imagine what'll happen to 300D... ;)

[EricKonieczny]

If you want to sell the 20D, let me know, I am interested in discussing. Email or PM me.

[fatrat]

whats the specs of the new digital rebel

[Andy_T]

Specs & discussion of DRebel XT! (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58320)

Best regards,
Andy

[cmM]

it probably will make the price of 20D go down, since a new and very capable (supposably) camera will be introduced at nearly half the price. My rebel will grow old with me :-P

[booggerg]

It will indeed.. which is soo good!!! can't wait for it to fall!

[Hellashot]

Yes it will. All technology devalues quickly, unless nothing better is ever released.

[Deckyon]

Yes it will. All technology devalues quickly, unless nothing better is ever released.

Why? Does the new Rebel keep the old one or the 20D from taking photos? Does the 20D and 300D all of a sudden stop working because the 350D comes out? Of course not. The only reason a new camera would "devalue" an older one is by individual viewpoint only. Please, these are not desktop computers!

[22littlereasons]

...Please, these are not desktop computers!

Agreed! It's like getting a new car because the ashtray is full! (And I don't smoke! *s*)

[kb244]

Like the 300D vs 10D, they're similar cameras, slightly different sensor though, with just a touch of features that the higher end metal-bodied ones carry. Rather than removing a bunch of features from the XT vs the 20D like they did with the 300D/10D. They kept most of the features, but made XT smaller, half-powered, and still 3fps although while adding continous shooting over the 300D. So the differences are more subtle other than where it counts, if you were to go with the 20D not only would you get a more solid camera, but more battery life and faster shooting speed, far as the quality goes between to the two, I'm going to lean towards very similar. However seems this time rather than having nearly a 700$ difference between the two, the 20D and XT only seems like they'll be a 400$ or so difference in price, not as huge as when the 300D/10D were out.

[kb244]

Why? Does the new Rebel keep the old one or the 20D from taking photos? Does the 20D and 300D all of a sudden stop working because the 350D comes out? Of course not. The only reason a new camera would "devalue" an older one is by individual viewpoint only. Please, these are not desktop computers!

Well that is certainly true like keeping around a good old 30 year old Canon EOS body, it still shoots pictures, not like cuz a new one came out that it becomes worse. But because these are 'Digita' Cameras, most of us have the geek-factor in us to feel that newer is always better, gota have the best, etc. Its like Gota have the newest or you wont be able to play doom3 on that computer, though far as cameras, I doubt you're gona need any newer of a camera to capture hell on earth if it does occur (let alone need a camera at all).

Bottom line, get a camera that suits your needs and does what you want it to do, not because its the latest and greatest thing out there ( Which is not always the best for you ).

[DocFrankenstein]

Anything that canon introduces is gonna devalue your 20D

And it is like computers.

[Deckyon]

How?

[kb244]

Anything that canon introduces is gonna devalue your 20D

And it is like computers.


Except where you are inadvertly upgrading new software and such for a computer, you dont upgrade requirements as quickly for a camera. So while the value-of-technology certainly holds somewhat true with computers, its not as quick as computers to de-value, nor is it ever as quick to needing an upgrade because of a new requirement, would be like a model saying you need 5fps to capture me, that rebel aint gona cut it.

[DocFrankenstein]

Except where you are inadvertly upgrading new software and such for a computer, you dont upgrade requirements as quickly for a camera. So while the value-of-technology certainly holds somewhat true with computers, its not as quick as computers to de-value, nor is it ever as quick to needing an upgrade because of a new requirement, would be like a model saying you need 5fps to capture me, that rebel aint gona cut it.
Incorrect. MDJAK asks you about the market value of the camera.

It's economics 101 dude. The demand for the 20D will decrease, because XT is a substitute for 20D. The price will go down.

Cheers

[mbze430]

I agree, it will have an effect on the 20D sales, which will lead to lowering the price to attract that niche market.

The very obivous question is why pay $300-$400 more for a 20D when you have "Almost" the same with XT, now you ask does the $300-$400 worth that extra cost for a 20D?

So its like buying a car, does the V8 motor worth that extra couple of thousands over the V6? Some will say yes, some will say no. (fps difference Xt vs 20D)

Or Kia vs a Mercedes Benz, they are both a car, and get you from point A to point B. (built differences Xt vs. 20D)

I can't think of an example for the ISO speed.... :oops:

[Andy_T]

What is the VALUE of a certain product?

Basically, it depends on what YOU want to do with it.

In economics, there are (at least) two views to this:

(1) the discounted cash flow of the use I can make from it
If I want to be able to take 8 MP digital photographs with a 5 FPS camera, this is worth $ xxx to me
(2) the amount of money that the highest bidder is willing to pay for it.

If you are an owner and want to keep it, then the value according to (1) doesn't change. You have it, and it still takes great pictures. Most likely it doesn't make much sense to replace it with a new one.

If you are a buyer and don't have one and want to get one, then maybe the value according to (1) is lower for you, because now there's an alternative that does (almost) the same things, at a cheaper price point. If Canon wants to keep up sales, they might lower the price for the new camera a bit.

If you are a seller, then the value is determined by (2). As the value for buyers has maybe gone down, yes, your camera has lost some value.

So if you bought your camera to take pictures until it falls apart, then its value has not changed.
If you bought it as an investment to sell later, then it has lost some value. But you know digital cameras well enough to not buy it for that reason.

Realistically, all of us think that the camera has some residual value so that we can trade it in in 2 years when we have enough money to get a 1DII (or III :lol: ). So we all lose some money now.
But we also are realistic enough to know that this is a fact of life ... We have to pay some rent to be able to use this great piece of equipment for some time.

Best regards,
Andy

[charlesu]

Keep the 20D. It is a stellar camera. The XT is unknown at this point and could have issues. Or you could get a lemon. If you know and trust your 20, why sell it? Because you can net the cost of a Rebel XT or an extra hundred?

Stick with what you know works. Size and weight will be similar so both work as vacation cameras. What's the advantage of selling it unless you don't need the backup and DO need the cash?

[Jon, The Elder]

This guy take photos or trade cameras? - Ebay is over there-

[quadphoto]

I dont think that the new Rebel is a threat to the value of the 20D, I handled this new camera at the Focus on Imaging Exhibition on the weekend and was not impressed with the build quality it's very light weight and small. I am currently using a 300D with a BG-E1, I fitted the grip to to give the camera body extra support when using my 100-400L IS lens and still sometimes hear the plastic of the grip creak if i am not careful handling it, the new rebel would not be any stronger. I will be be upgading to the 20D, it's the value 300D that will possibly suffer.

Quadphoto.

[CyberDyneSystems]

It will not change the 20D's abilities obviously,. I think some are confusing the concept of "worth" with "market value"

The new Rebel will indeed impact the "used market value" of the 20D,..

But then again,. so will every other DSLR that is released for the next ten years or so to some extent.

I do not think the Rebel XT's impact on its resale value will be as significant as for instance the 20D's impact was on the 10D,. for that type pf impact you need to fear the 30D or whatever they will call it,. which is over a year away.

But will the XT have "an" impact?

Of course. :)

As others have said though,.. the XT certainly will not effect the 20D's worth as a tool or camera beyond it's resale value.

So,. if your intention is to sell,.. better sooner than later as in a few months time the resale value of the 20D will be less than it is now.

But if a backup camera that is more portable is your intention,. then forget about resale value.

[DocFrankenstein]

Is an inch of a camera worth the hassle?

[Chris1le]

Why are so many people worried about the "value" of their cameras? if it does what you paid for it to do who cares if a new model may decrease its value? It does not change the features or abilities of the camera you now currently own. These are cameras not investments. :rolleyes:

[kb244]

Incorrect. MDJAK asks you about the market value of the camera.

It's economics 101 dude. The demand for the 20D will decrease, because XT is a substitute for 20D. The price will go down.

Cheers


Um Thats what I said value-of-technology, the $$ it'll cost on the market for the type of cost it is. And as I said its not as rapid as computers and video cards are to lose price. But the usefulness of the camera is not limited by the value of the market, but how the photographer uses it, where as computers and video cards are subject to ever changing software and games that keep the demand to get newer and better more rapidly in pace.

[lkorell]

Market value, maybe, as every "next" generation camera will do to the previous one. But shooting value, no. Remember there are still people shooting with D60 and 1D cameras with no need to immediately upgrade. Also, the XT is not really a next generation beyond the 20D, it is only an upgrade to the 300D which puts it closer to the 20D but not in the 20D target customer markets.

If you are getting the results you want with the 20D then the value will keep for as long as you can use it effectively. If you don't need more than 8MP, features, and the buffer size of the 20D, you have a camera that provides value to you and your work.

The only reason to upgrade is if your needs are no longer being met, or you want some features not offered on your current gear, or you just have to have the latest toy no matter what.

I don't think the 300D XT will surpass the features and quality of the 20D. Maybe the next one will.

Lou

[pawtrait]

I expect the Rebel XT to feel much the same as the existing Rebel. If it does the answer will be simple - the 20D will still be twice the camera. I have a D30, a Rebel and a 20D, in order of preference for shooting I go 20D, D30 and Rebel. The Rebel does take a good picture, it just doesn't feel as solid and instantly usable - the 20D is a like a glove - fits perfectly...

[fatrat]

is the XT plastic??? if so i would rather get the D70 rather then the XT. what appeals to me about the 20D over the D70 is the 5fps and the metal frame (although my friends D70 feel more robust??) The 20D still has these advantages over the XT.So if image is the same surely the best option would be the d70 (if your not brand bias) its cheaper images are exellent, im still not convinced the 20D takes better pics then the D70, so it not better quality images why i picked the 20D..

I think maybe the XT will have a firmware hack the unlocks the feature of the 20D, then it will bw worth it

[Hellashot]

is the XT plastic??? if so i would rather get the D70 rather then the XT. what appeals to me about the 20D over the D70 is the 5fps and the metal frame (although my friends D70 feel more robust??) The 20D still has these advantages over the XT.So if image is the same surely the best option would be the d70 (if your not brand bias) its cheaper images are exellent, im still not convinced the 20D takes better pics then the D70, so it not better quality images why i picked the 20D..

I think maybe the XT will have a firmware hack the unlocks the feature of the 20D, then it will bw worth it

From the sounds of it, there's hardly a "setting" that has been removed from the 20D going into the XT aside from possibly the number of custom functions. There's buttons, buffer, construction that are different between the two cameras. And note that the D70 does not have ISO 100. And I'd take 33% more detail in my photos anyday (20D vs. D70 [8MP vs 6MP])

[oddball]

is the XT plastic??? if so i would rather get the D70 rather then the XT. what appeals to me about the 20D over the D70 is the 5fps and the metal frame (although my friends D70 feel more robust??) The 20D still has these advantages over the XT.So if image is the same surely the best option would be the d70 (if your not brand bias) its cheaper images are exellent, im still not convinced the 20D takes better pics then the D70, so it not better quality images why i picked the 20D..

I think maybe the XT will have a firmware hack the unlocks the feature of the 20D, then it will bw worth it

I recently returned an unopened, plastic N**** D-70 because of severe buyer's remorse in part due to lingering issues with the camera, and the realization of Canon's cutting edge position in the digital world. The less expensive Rebel XT is the camera I'm waiting for...

[fatrat]

your 8Mp images (and mine) might be bigger. but you cant tell me they are better then the D70s , colour is much better and realistic they are also much more defined then the Canons flatter looking pictures,(from what i have seen and most reviews say) even at iso 100 Vs iso 200, which make you think why is the D70s pics are as good as if not better then the 300d,10d,20d at iso 200, i mean my old camera take iso 50 pics are you going to tell me that better pictures?? I am no brand whore so if kmart come out with a camera that take better pictures then my 20D and cost $200, and is made of wood, you wont hear me trying to pull it to peices. I never own a 10D but from all the reviews i read the 20Ds pictures are nearly the same given a bit of noise and clearly every review i have read says the D70 is better then the 10d.. please dont be so bias..the D70 made a clean sweep of all the mag and industry Camera of the year awards, give the credit it deserves

[etaf]

its no different to all tech products at the moment - you only have to look at PC's / laptops - every few months new products are released and the price just goes down.
The Canon Pro1 was released for about £899 and now can be purchased for £599 thats in less than a year. The 20D will continue to have the price pushed down.
so I suggest if you have no use for it - get rid of it and buy a nice lens for the 1D. Unless you have a critical need for a backup, or give it to a family member to use when you are out and about with them .

[Andy_T]

Fatrat ... as usual, there are different opinions :wink:

It would be helpful if you substantiated your claims with sources.

I, for one, have not seen any serious comparison that stated that the pictures of the 10D (or 300D) look 'flatter' than that of the D70. The reviews I read ranked the cameras 'on par' with a 'slight advantage' of the 70D, mainly in colour reproduction. On the other hand, the Canon cameras have better low light performance with less visible noise. Mind you , that was over the 10D and DRebel, which were Canon's last sensor generation.

If you see the improvements that the 20D and DRebel XT bring over the 10D and DRebel, then there is really no reason for me to assume that the D70 would be in any way up to the new generation of Canon cameras, image quality wise.

Take a look at the most recent comparison (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/konicaminolta7d/page23.asp) that shows both images from the 20D, the D70 and Minoltas Maxxum 7D camera.

But that is just my - I think educated - opinion.

Also, that a certain camera won a 'camera of the year award' normally does not really mean much ... take a look at all the awards that Tamron's 28-300 lenses collect and compare that to some real tests.

Best regards,
Andy

PS: Please note that your posts might profit from structuring them into sentences, maybe even paragraphs. The way they are, they are pretty hard on the eyes.

I had to reread your post several times to find out what you really wanted to say.

When I want to judge the value of somebody's thoughts I also look at how much time he obviously invested in bringing them to paper. :wink:

[fatrat]

Fatrat ... as usual, there are different opinions :wink:

It would be helpful if you substantiated your claims with sources.

I, for one, have not seen any serious comparison that stated that the pictures of the 10D (or 300D) look 'flatter' than that of the D70. The reviews I read ranked the cameras 'on par' with a 'slight advantage' of the 70D, mainly in colour reproduction. On the other hand, the Canon cameras have better low light performance with less visible noise. Mind you , that was over the 10D and DRebel, which were Canon's last sensor generation.

If you see the improvements that the 20D and DRebel XT bring over the 10D and DRebel, then there is really no reason for me to assume that the D70 would be in any way up to the new generation of Canon cameras, image quality wise.

Take a look at the most recent comparison (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/konicaminolta7d/page23.asp) that shows both images from the 20D, the D70 and Minoltas Maxxum 7D camera.

But that is just my - I think educated - opinion.

Also, that a certain camera won a 'camera of the year award' normally does not really mean much ... take a look at all the awards that Tamron's 28-300 lenses collect and compare that to some real tests.

Best regards,
Andy

PS: Please note that your posts might profit from structuring them into sentences, maybe even paragraphs. The way they are, they are pretty hard on the eyes.

I had to reread your post several times to find out what you really wanted to say.

When I want to judge the value of somebody's thoughts I also look at how much time he obviously invested in bringing them to paper. :wink:

I only had to read your post once because you are the best and my 2 year would not have to read something twice, also English is my second language, if you even have as second language i would like to see how you do, and by the way this is a forum , like i give a toss about grammer and spelling here

And i would say winning a CLEAN SWEEP of the Mag and industry magazine of the year awards means you have the best Camera of 2004, its not like on couple of mags gave it the award , everyone did, i doubt the Tamron won a clean sweep of the Lens of the year award, so tha was a stupid example

[Andy_T]

And i would say winning a CLEAN SWEEP of the Mag and industry magazine of the year awards means you have the best Camera of 2004

Fatrat,

What exactly do you mean with 'clean sweep of mag and industry mazazine of the year awards'?

This does not tell me anything, and I tried to google for the phrase or its different parts to no success.
So please enlighten me. :D

Best regards,
Andy

PS: If you take the time to look at the 'location' information near my name, you might guess that English is not my first language, either :wink:

In my humble opinion, this is no excuse for impoliteness, however ... even on an internet forum :(

[MDJAK]

I stayed on the sidelines of this debate long enough.

Gentlemen, please stop arguing. I asked a simple question which has spun out of control. One of the main reasons I like this forum is because, in the short time I've been a member, there is very little, if any, rancor, just straightforward answers.

Perhaps my question or post topic was poorly phrased, and for that I apologize to all.

I was merely inquiring if I decided to sell my 20D, would I be better off doing it now, dollarwise, or waiting a while at which time the new Rebel would be out and I would get less money on resale. Obviously, it will only amount to a couple of hundred so it's not that big a deal. Perhaps I shouldn't have posed the question in the first place.

As to the gentleman who replied I should go to Ebay, if I choose to trade in my cameras, autos or anything else every month if I want to, that's my choice. Your comment is both rude and not appreciated.

[pfuller88]

Valuations will come down. Look at your camera stock, if you are like me, I have a 1 MegaPixel Camera, A 3.2MP, a 5MP compact and a 20D. Each time a puchase was made it was leading edge (or nearly leading edge) technology.

Similar to computers, I believe the future for cameras will provide smaller and lighter bodies and lens (e.g. the new canon DO lenses). We will also see the continuing trend on higher megapixels.

Canon and others rely on new technology gadgets for thier existance. They have always been able to tweak my interest every few years (so far). I see no reason this trend will end anytime soon. :)

[karusel]

Oh, come on people... .everytime a new camera is released there's exactly the same debate with the same answers and same conclusions... learn to accept that camera's and computer's price curve are quite the same: it falls, quite steeply. An 8 MP SLR is not revolutionary vs. 6 MP one, couple of FPS more is not revolutionary, a little less noise is not revolutionary, and yes, you need to ask yourself, as calmly as possible, will this additional feature improve my photos? Do I seriously need a lots of FPS if all I photograph are scenery and tabletops?

I've got a 10D and I'm not even tempted by either 20D or whatever rebel, I do however plan on buying a 1.3 crop camera and it will possibly be 1D MKII, about next year. I prefer blowing my hard earned money on quality lenses. :D

[johneric8]

I will make this short and sweet! the 20D is one of the best cameras ever made for the price! This thing is amazing. I know for a fact just looking at the specs of XT that the 20D is still worth the extra change for most serious photographers. I know that anyone out there who is serious about picture taking will agree with me. I will be honest wit you. I dont mind paying $400 more for a better built camera alone!! The one thing that people tend to forget when comparing the two is that the 20D has great mapped out features and quick ways to dial setting in which is awesome and with the money alone!! The layout of the 20d and XT are worlds apart!! 20D owners know this. If you are looking to get a camera and waiting for the Xt, dont wait!! go get a 20D

[Reminisce]

in my humble opinion, the 20D is still a much better camera by usage standards. If you're a sports shooter, or wildlife shooter, the 20D is the best camera you're going to get to do your work under 2 grand, hands down. You guys may not think it, but 3fps vs 5fps is almost a world of a difference when you're working in the time frame of split seconds. The speed of the frame buffer is also a blessing in disguise in this aspect.
I dont know if the XT will use the same processing system as the 20D or the 300D/10D, but if the latter, then the 20D's value there is still supreme since it has the best noise ratio of any camera at that price range as well, hell even better than some of the pure Pro cameras. And having 3200 ISO is like having a 500 horsepowered engined under your hood that can reach speeds of 200mph. Sure you may not use all 500 horses in every day traffic, but its sure as hell nice to know its there on track day.
I think if anything, the 300D and 10D will fall more in price than the 20D will. We really wont know how this camera will fit in until it hits the market, so i think its best if we wait and find out rather than panicking beforehand.

[fatrat]

Fatrat,

What exactly do you mean with 'clean sweep of mag and industry mazazine of the year awards'?

This does not tell me anything, and I tried to google for the phrase or its different parts to no success.
So please enlighten me. :D

Best regards,
Andy

PS: If you take the time to look at the 'location' information near my name, you might guess that English is not my first language, either :wink:

In my humble opinion, this is no excuse for impoliteness, however ... even on an internet forum :(

well if you did not know what i meant, shows how intelligent you are

[Budley007]

I doubt the XT will impact the value of the 20D as much as people think. They are not the same camera. Canon has a tendency to deliberately engineer things this way. I'm sure the XT was intended to compete with other manufactures, not their own products.

[cactusclay]

I got tired of reading and just jumped ahead, so forgive me if someone already said this. I waited for six years or so to get a digital camera that was as good a 35mm film, had instant start up,without shutter lag and the five frames a sec is just a bonus. So this does what I require and I'll keep it till it breaks. I can't think of anything else I need in a camera. The 1.6 crop sort of cuts the wide angle choices a bit, but I found that I really like being able to use a 50 mm for a portrait lens and getting an extra 120 mm out of a zoom is handy too.

[Raj]

Why are threads getting so hot these days ??? ??? ??? ??

[mbze430]

Because there is a possible price break .......

[I Simonius]

snip>

Bottom line, get a camera that suits your needs and does what you want it to do, not because its the latest and greatest thing out there ( Which is not always the best for you ).[/QUOTE]

This arguement keeps getting put out 'get what suits your needs', but I can't get a camera that suits my needs cos I my needs are one that will match the quality of 25 asa 35mm film. Now cameras match to film, not to other cameras. As far as cameras go my needs were met perfectly by the old F1ns. But its not about cameras any more in the sense of camera specs, it's 90% about the quality of the new 'film equivalent' (digital sensors)

I would happily settle for a digital camera that only took single shots, had no functions at all other than manual everything - IF it was 16 mp PLUS - at £1000.

16mp is the BOTTOM line for quality as far as I'm concerned, so it will alway be a compromise until then and I suspect this is true for a lot of buyers, nothing to do with getting 'what suits your needs' cos that option ain't out there yet.

[Andy_T]

Simon,

this just means that *for you* the moment to change from film to digital has not come yet, as your requirements are obviously higher than that of many others.

Good thing is that with the current development in digital cameras, it is my best guess that even these requirements will be met in, say, 2 to 3 years time.

You might consider looking for used MF backs, there sometimes are some pretty good offers for 16 MP versions (though maybe not at GBP 1000).

And the prices for good used camera to go with it have also come down.

Best regards,
Andy

Best regards,
Andy

[MDJAK]

Well, it's been a week and a half since purchasing the 1Ds Mark II and I haven't taken the 20D out of the camera backpack. I was afraid it would die a slow and dusty death. Still don't want to part with it though.

[Lensdude]

I suppose the 20D would make a decent backup to your 1Ds if you're a working pro but if you don't rely on your equipment to earn a living than why do you need a backup??

[Lensdude]

You might consider selling it on ebay and use those funds to buy some more photo accessories like studio gear.

[Steve Parr]

This is an interesting question.

I used to deal with this in the musical instrument arena a lot, guitars primarily.

Basically, I look at it this way: When I buy a piece of gear (musical or photo), I try not to be concerned with what the resale value of it will be. In my opinion, the most important thing is what will the value be to me while I use it.

It took me a real long time to get there...

Steve

[defordphoto]

And that's a perfect end to this thread Steve. Excellent advice!