xsi HDR settings

[ralph6534]

I just purchased an xsi and want to do HDR. I am familiar with bracketing but don't know what has to be turned off or diabled with this camera. Any help will be appreciated.
Ralph

[hawkeye60]

The manual will explain how to set up auto bracketing, but that's only good for 3 exposures. If you want more than 3 exposures for HDR, and some people do, you'll have to do it manually.

[ralph6534]

Thank you I am able to correct that problem.

[Serrator]

Ralph, if you want more than 3 shots using AEB, I would suggest doing them back to back which is much quicker than doing them manually. Also if you use AEB in conjunction with the timer and the continuous mode it will fire them off automatically for each 3 shot sequence. Good Luck.

[kirkt]

Also:

http://www.hdrlabs.com/tutorials/index.html

for more general tips that you can apply to your camera to get a better exposure sequence.

Kirk

[ralph6534]

Thank you I will check it out.

[ralph6534]

Ralph, if you want more than 3 shots using AEB, I would suggest doing them back to back which is much quicker than doing them manually. Also if you use AEB in conjunction with the timer and the continuous mode it will fire them off automatically for each 3 shot sequence. Good Luck.
My concern is if the flash will fire if my bracket changes the exposure too much or will the camera change my ISO. The manual does not go into detail too much. I guess I have to keep reading. Thanks for your respomse.

[Serrator]

My concern is if the flash will fire if my bracket changes the exposure too much or will the camera change my ISO. The manual does not go into detail too much. I guess I have to keep reading. Thanks for your respomse.


Ralph, I always use the manual mode setting when doing AEB so nothing such as the flash will engage or the ISO settings change. The only adjustments that you should be making when in the AEB mode will be the shutter speeds for HDR efforts (assuming you have already set your aperture and ISO).

[ralph6534]

Got it thanks very much.

[canonloader]

Not sure about an XSi, never had one, but the 40D and 1D will do this, so yours probably can also. To use AEB, go into Av Mode, set up the AEB to a one stop spread. If you only want three shots, then go to 2 stops or, I read somewhere, that 1 2/3 +/- works better than a full 2, for some reason. Anyway, set to +/- 1 stop, then focus, turn off AF and then since you are in Av Mode and can use Exposure Compensation, Dial in -2 Ev. This has the effect of moving the whole AEB settings over by 2 stops. Since your camera probably only shows +/-2 in the viewfinder, one of the pippers will disappear, but it's still there and working, just off the scale. Take three shots with the remote or timer. Now move Ev to the right by one stop and shoot three more. Repeat this till you go the same amount the other way. I don't like doing it this way, cause I always get too many extra doubles at the same exposure and it's confusing to delete the right ones.

Much better to just shoot in manual, with a remote cord that costs $10 on E-bay, and while on the tripod, start at say 1/2000 shutter speed after focusing, take one shot, dial it down to 1/1000, take another, dial down to 1/500 and so on, halving the time for each shot till you get a good spread. This is fast, maybe even faster than messing with AEB for more than 3 shots, and gives you nice sets you don't have to mess with in post processing later, deleting duplicates.

If the scene has moving objects in it, cars, birds, people, clouds, it does not matter how you do it, there is going to be movement in the images. The only thing I have found fast enough to stop even cloud movement is the 1D in AEB at 8 frames a second, and that still won't stop a car or person moving across the frame.

[Serrator]

Much better to just shoot in manual, with a remote cord that costs $10 on E-bay, and while on the tripod, start at say 1/2000 shutter speed after focusing, take one shot, dial it down to 1/1000, take another, dial down to 1/500 and so on, halving the time for each shot till you get a good spread. This is fast, maybe even faster than messing with AEB for more than 3 shots, and gives you nice sets you don't have to mess with in post processing later, deleting duplicates.

If the scene has moving objects in it, cars, birds, people, clouds, it does not matter how you do it, there is going to be movement in the images. The only thing I have found fast enough to stop even cloud movement is the 1D in AEB at 8 frames a second, and that still won't stop a car or person moving across the frame.


canonloader,

I highly and respectfully disagree with your conclusion that it is "much better to just shoot in manual" (for HDR bracketed sequences). First, it is humanly impossible to shoot a sequence of bracketed exposures faster whether it is 3 or more exposures than can be done with AEB and with the continuous mode engaged (even cameras with a 3 bracket limit). Ralph's XSI will do 3.5 frames per second...I would be willing to bet that the fastest that most folks could hope to achieve would be more around 1 frame per second doing it manually which means to take the 3 bracketed sequence is going to take more around at least 2 seconds total sequence time (and this doesn't even count the time you may have to wait for the camera shake to stop)...not to mention rushing around your camera dials is never a good thing for stability.

For those who may be new to HDR and wondering why is one or two seconds is that important, it is due to movement within a given scene such as clouds and trees and sometimes even people. So, considering a scene with movements in it and how quickly you can capture the bracketed sequence becomes of the utmost importance to help minimize ghosting (ghosting means something that has moved between any of the bracketed exposures and is totally different from what some call blurring). Technically no camera can prevent ghosting no matter if it shoots 3fps or 12fps. A faster frames per second can only minimize the amount of movement ultimately so that it can give you the photographer much better odds at a successful sequence that can be rendered with acceptable results. The good thing is that with movement of clouds since they usually have non-defined edges or are amorphous, the ghosting is less of a problem for them and from my experience even a 3fps camera has no problem with most landscape cloud movement imagery. Trees and tree limbs though on the other hand can be a pain during windy times depending on the proximity, but AEB can give you a much better chance of success during a lull in the wind. Here is an example of a shoot I did where the wind was playing havoc with the branches but I was able to get a AEB 3 shot sequence where trying to do it manually was impossible due to the wind:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/serrator/2503396691/sizes/l/in/set-72157605132667057/

Secondly, with respect to HDR another aspect that is also important is photo registration. It is always 'optimal' to have perfectly aligned or registered images for the HDR software to work with rather than having to rely on the softwares alignment routines...thus using a tripod is preferred. So when doing manual adjustments versus AEB this requires the photographer to touch the camera many more times. Depending on the amount of exposures and as I mentioned above the "rushing" aspect is not in your favor and can lead to a much greater chance of accidental camera movement/camera shake giving you a misregistered sequence/blurred images. So for example a 6 exposure bracketed sequence doing it manually the photographer would have to touch the camera at least 5 times total during the sequence to get the 6 images, where using AEB it can be done in just one camera touch between the two 3 shot sequences when used in conjunction with a shutter release. Much better in my estimation and practice.

To me the bottom line is that for HDR there is no better method to achieve the fastest and least camera obtrusive bracketed sequence than to use AEB and multiple AEB sequences. This is even more apparent now that I have a 40d as well which is capable of 6.5 frames per second.

[canonloader]

I think the software is more than capable enough to align micro changes in images. I mean, with a decent tripod, it's not going to move, and it's not going to sit there and vibrate for seconds between shots, so one second per shot is still pretty fast. Why go to all the trouble of setting a timer to burn off three shots without having to touch the camera, when you have the mirror flapping around in there like a broke wing bird? You can't use MLU in AEB. And I'm not even counting the seconds it's going to take you to change the AEB and set and wait for your timer to get another set. :)

[Serrator]

canonloader,
When doing MULTIPLE AEB sequencing I would not advise using the timer...it defeats the purpose of gathering the images quickly.

Also another cool thing is that yes you can do AEB now with MLU. I didn't want to get into this nuance for the beginners but since you brought it up I will explain how. On Ralph's XSI and I think any other Canon camera with Live View capabilty you now can use AEB in conjunction with MLU. Live View only works with the mirror locked up so with it is turned on you now have an even better way to use AEB! :) I know that Nikon cameras can't do this much to their dislike, their Live View still for some reason slaps the mirror between each shot when using AEB.

[canonloader]

I'll have to try that. But, it won't matter, I still prefer to use the remote and change the shutter speed as I shoot when doing more than 3 shots. In fact, I very seldom do only 3 shots, unless something in the scene is moving. If it's not, 5 seconds either way isn't going to matter.

[Serrator]

canonloader,

I won't argue your preference. :)

I just want the HDR newbies to have all ammo so they can determine what works for them as they grow. When I see post claiming that manually shooting bracketed shots is faster/better than using AEB...well it just ain't so. :)

I am just the opposite, most of my HDR's are done using 3 exposures. One reason is that I like to have people in the scene a lot of times and using the AEB burst is about the only way to get keepers even when you have them holding still. Plus if I the photographer wants to be in the shot it works for this as well...see below (this is my good side!):
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1087/1144646648_8a19b5bf98_b.jpg

[canonloader]

When I see post claiming that manually shooting bracketed shots is faster/better than using AEB...well it just ain't so.
Well, I'm afraid your wrong. It is almost as fast to take the correct number of images, rather than several doubles. When you get them in your computer and then have to waste more time sorting them out and deleting the dupes, you've used up more than any time you have saved. And I still say, doing two or three runs of 3 shots brackets to get five or six images to use is not going to give you any more usable images than doing them one by one as far as alignment matters and will take just as long to shoot them.

[Serrator]

Well, I'm afraid your wrong. It is almost as fast to take the correct number of images, rather than several doubles. When you get them in your computer and then have to waste more time sorting them out and deleting the dupes, you've used up more than any time you have saved. And I still say, doing two or three runs of 3 shots brackets to get five or six images to use is not going to give you any more usable images than doing them one by one as far as alignment matters and will take just as long to shoot them.


canonloader,

Not sure what you are claiming to be incorrect about this when in your own statement you say "it is almost as fast". In HDR scenes with movement which is the vast majority when dealing with landscapes, acquisition speed of the exposures is preeminent to minimize ghosting.


Also you are confusing between the time it takes to acquire the exposure sequence to how long it takes to do post processing?? For all I know it could take a person 6 hours to do their pp on any given image, but what is important to this discussion is how fast the exposures can be taken to minimize the total amount of time between them.

I will dispel your insistence that when doing multiple AEB sequences that there must be duplicate exposures, although this in of itself again has no bearing on the final result. If Ralph wants to get 5 exposures with a 1ev spacing using AEB all that is needed is to set the far right pointer on the -1ev. This will put the other two left most pointers on the -2ev and -3ev (you won't see the -3ev pointer since the viewfinder only displays -2ev through +2ev). Fire off this sequence which will give you -3ev, -2ev & -1ev exposures. Next dial in the far left pointer to the 0ev and this will put the two right most pointers on the +1ev and +2ev and fire these off. This will end up giving you -3ev through +2ev, no dupes just one additional exposure and in this case the -3ev. The same can be done with 2ev spacing so that there are never any dupes only one extra exposure at one end or the other of the ev range depending on how you want it. Also doing 3 back to back AEB sequences (9 exposures) will give you no extra exposure covering -4ev through +4ev at 1ev spacing! So for a three sequence multi-AEB there is no extra or dupe.

As for your last statement I cannot see how you conclude that with the facts presented. In a scene with potential movement the only chance you may have is with AEB (as you stated earlier) to get usable exposures and why wouldn't you want to use it? It is no more difficult once it is activated to adjust the ev (same exact dial is used only you have to touch it many more times in manual where in AEB for a 9 exposure sequence the most it is touched is 2 times versus 8 times for manual). Even if AEB was as slow as manual it still is less work for the photographer getting the sequence(s).

For beginners here is another example of a 3 exposure using AEB where even using my old XT at 3fps couldn't minimize the ghosting effects, it was a very windy day, you could not even think of trying to get this shot manually on that day (look at the limbs smaller branches and you will see it, also note that the clouds although were moving very fast have no apparent ghosting):
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2244/2152815555_d897d11f48_o.jpg

[canonloader]

I'm curious to know what your time frame is on getting a 7 shot spread your way. I have found several of mine on my hard drive and it's about 12 seconds. However, I did them by shutter time, not the marks in the viewfinder. For a static scene, this is fine, for a windy scene like yours, even three shots in AEB isn't really good enough, and if there are cars, people or birds, your still limited to 1 shot conversions.

Your explanation on using AEB for 6 or 9 shots makes sense. It never worked for me cause I was set in my ways of dialing in +/- 2 stops. Duhhhh.

[canonloader]

Just for the record, I did a 7 shot spread this morning of a static scene. No leaves or limbs, cars or planes to worry about. I did it your way, which means I had to shoot one 3 shot spread to the far left, then another near center, and a third to the right, and ended up with two extra shots I had to dump later. The time stamp says it took 8 seconds and I was hunched over and ready to dial, so no wasted time. It's 4 seconds faster than doing them individually, but I think it doesn't matter unless it's a static scene. 8 seconds is still too slow for even clouds.

Oh yeah, I was in 6.5 frames a second on the 40D.

[Serrator]

Ha...that's funny, I just got done doing a couple of test runs myself since most of mine are all 3 exposure.

Here is what I got using my 40d, the first run showed 6 seconds mainly because I fumbled around on the second dialing. The second test I did better at 4 seconds. If you think about it though depending on how fast your trigger finger is (or ev dialing finger), it should be a direct correlation between manual and AEB. The camera is always going to be faster at changing the ev's when in AEB mode (in our case at up to 6.5fps) the only variable that is left is how fast we can change the ev's between AEB sequences or how fast you can change the ev's during the manual method. This why AEB bracketing is always going to be faster than manual without a doubt. The other side benefit of using the AEB is the photographer has much less to do at the time of the captures with respect to fiddling with the camera during the exposures.

Again, I agree for a static scene ANY amount of time between exposures is fine...rarely though do we have such luxuries especially for outdoor scenes. I will also have to say that each scene we decide to capture will have it's own factors that will determine if 3,5 or 10 seconds will work. I don't think you can make blanket statements that 8 seconds is too slow even for clouds. Depending on the speed of the clouds, their direction, proximity and your zoom level will all determine whether or not you can image the scene with accepatable ghosting. Using a wide angle lens will let you get by with a whole lot more cloud movement than with your 300mm lens possibly.

Another thought too about the time, you are focused on trying to negate movements which is very accurate with regards to HDR, but don't forget that when shooting it is sometimes just as important of a matter of trying to catch the shots in-between movements. Many of times during windy days I will have to wait to try and catch a break in the wind...as in my previous example or trying to grab shots without people in the frame.

Something that we can say without reservation is that the faster I can gather the exposures the better chance we have of minimizing any movements.

[canonloader]

Yeah, another good reason to save up dor a 1D MkII. It can do 3, 5 or 7 shots Spreads at 8fps. ;)

Seems like every time I get close to having enough saved up without going in the hole, my car needs work or something else comes up and I have to put it off. ;)

[Serrator]

Just buy two and give me the second one!! :)

Let me throw one more technique at you that can be done with a 40d for HDR.

If you don't like having to dial in the two ev changes during a 9 shot sequence using AEB there is still at least one other way that I know of where you don't have to during the sequence.

It takes a little more planning but you can set the C1 (Custom User settings) to your middle set of ev's and the C2 to the far right or left set of ev's depending where you want to start. So you take the first set using AEB, then turn the dial to C1 for the middle sequence and fire them off. Lastly you turn the dial to C2 and fire off the end set. Basically it saves you a bit of ev dialing during the sequence.

I thought I would share a 3 exposure image from this last week at a red rock area near us...although not sandstone these are red granite here in Missouri.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3007/3050397725_072125dd7d_b.jpg

[canonloader]

That is one big rock. I will have to read up on User Functions. The old 1D Classic is supposed to do 5 or 7 shot AEB spreads, but I can't seem to get mine to do it right and nobody knows anything about it. I know the MkII can, which is why I want one. :)

[ralph6534]

My thanks to both of you. You have given me a lot to think about. I may be overly concerned about camera movement even on a tripod. I was planning to shoot 3 shots bracketed at -2 and then change to +2 to produce 5 different exposures with one throw away. My concern is with turning the adjustment wheel to get from -2 to +2 without moving the camera too much. I guess I need to practice. Thanks again to all of you for your help.
Ralph

[canonloader]

It always helps to have a good tripod. Good ones can be quite expensive, and a lot of people do not like the added hassle of carrying a tripod, setting it up, even using it. I never did, for decades I owned a tripod and only saw it when I cleaned out a closet. A couple years ago, I bought a hundred plus dollar tripod and forced myself to use it. After a week, I saw so much improvement in my images that I don't leave the house without it now.

Much sharper images, and I got a grip action ballhead for it that in use, is much like you see in the old submarine movies when they use the periscope, Left hand on the grip, right hand on the camera body, and your eye to the viewfinder. You can turn and move to any position and never have to look away.

About six months ago, I bought another tripod, twice as much, and there are still better tripods available. All it takes is money. Just get the best you can afford. And use it. :)

[-Douglas-]

Just buy two and give me the second one!! :smile:Make that 3 :eek: I want one too ! :cool:

All it takes is money. :)
;);):rolleyes:

[Serrator]

Ralph,

I hope the info has helped some, we kinda got into some of the finer points that you will determine as you learn more about HDR.

The key is not to be worry too much about it but to get out and shoot. I don't have a great tripod...I use it as a walking stick when backpacking so I have to be a bit more careful when using it as well for camera shake...hence one of my heavy uses of AEB and the timer.:) I am never without though when shooting. canonloader is going to give me his old tripod once he gets our MkII's! :) Good luck.

[Serrator]

Dog...you can have my 40d when I get the MkII. :)

[-Douglas-]

Dog...you can have my 40d when I get the MkII. :)
I guess I could live with that, thankyou :p , oh yeh, and nice shot above,
looks like that bolder could topple over any time!

canonloader is going to give me his old tripod once he gets our MkII's! :smile::lol::lol::lol:

[canonloader]

HAHA, actually, that old Amvona has a Pano head on it now, and I keep both in my van so I don't have to carry them out every morning. I'm hoping I can find a MkII by the middle of next month. I have a couple of online jobs that pay, one is fixed income, the other is the more I do, the more I can make. If I knuckled under and put beak to the grindstone, I could buy a MkII by the middle of next month easy. But, sure as I start planning and spending time in the Sell forum, something brakes. This month it was an injector in the van, and the damn 40D had to go to Canon out of warranty. Otherwise, I'd be blowing off HDR sets at 8 frames a second. :lol: